Thomas Jefferson and the Bible

[Nowty V]

This is a myth that was popularized by the Da Vinci code.

 

I don't agree, I'm a lot older than the da vinci code, never seen it, never read it.

 

Historical fact as taught to me in school

 

Here is a quote by Bart Ehrman,

 

Bart Ehrman? Somebody else who wasn't there jumping on the bandwagon with pure speculation.

 

I have an unshakeable belief in God. However you must allow there is as much evidence for Jesus as there is for Spiderman. They both exist in books with absolutely no evidence in the historical record.

[planning4later]

However you must allow there is as much evidence for Jesus as there is for Spiderman. They both exist in books with absolutely no evidence in the historical record.

 

Aaaaaand...that is my cue to leave this discussion. This comment reveals your complete lack of knowledge on this subject. If you wanted to at LEAST have a legit debate, bring up the validity of the resurrection. But questioning his very existence? Do you have any idea that atheist scholars don't even challenge this? As the bible says, sometimes merely answering a foolish comment makes one a fool, himself.

[TheFinalWord]

I have an unshakeable belief in God. However you must allow there is as much evidence for Jesus as there is for Spiderman. They both exist in books with absolutely no evidence in the historical record.

 

Ehrman is a critical new testament scholar. I quoted him because he's probably the most liberal scholar in this area (and the most famous), and he does not use the Council of Nicaea argument.

[pureinheart]

I think it's terrible the lies that are being told concerning our Founding Fathers-

 

 

Popular Historian Explains the ?Truth? Behind Thomas Jefferson?s Controversial ?Jefferson Bible? | Video | TheBlaze.com

Edited September 30, 2016 by pureinheart

[BetheButterfly]

I think it's terrible the lies that are being told concerning our Founding Fathers-

 

 

Popular Historian Explains the ?Truth? Behind Thomas Jefferson?s Controversial ?Jefferson Bible? | Video | TheBlaze.com

 

I think it's important not to believe everything you read, but to check the facts.

 

The footnote for this paragraph leads to Charles Sanford's book on the religious views of Jefferson. Consulting that book, I find that Sanford does list those verses but when one examines the 1804 and 1820 extractions from Jefferson, Matthew 9 is not included in the 1804 version at all, and in the 1820 version, only Mt. 9:36 (where Jesus was moved with compassion on the people gathered around him) is there.

Apparently, Barton did not check the versions but rather simply accepted the erroneous citation of Sanford. And these are not only verses which Barton includes which were not included. We fully document all of this in the GJR book. There are several prominent instances like this in TJLs - where Barton cites a source but that source turns out to be in error or quite suspicious. When we explore the source, we learn the story is not true or quite implausible.

 

The Jefferson Lies: Does the Jefferson Bible include the miracles of Matthew 9? | Worldview Weekend

 

By the way, did you know Barton's book Jefferson Lies was recalled by the publisher due to "numerous complaints of historical inaccuracies"?

 

The book “The Jefferson Lies” by author David Barton has been recalled by publishers after numerous complaints of historical inaccuracies.

...

 

The publisher, Thomas Nelson, said in a statement that it had received complaints from numerous readers that there were factual errors in the book, which reached the New York Times bestseller list in May.

Apparently, Barton did not check the versions but rather simply accepted the erroneous citation of Sanford. And these are not only verses which Barton includes which were not included. We fully document all of this in the GJR book. There are several prominent instances like this in TJLs - where Barton cites a source but that source turns out to be in error or quite suspicious. When we explore the source, we learn the story is not true or quite implausible.

 

'The Jefferson Lies' is recalled by publisher Thomas Nelson - CSMonitor.com

 

 

 

[planning4later]

Pure, Thomas Nelson is a good publishing company. I generally trust what they put out. Thanks for the info.

[BetheButterfly]

I believe you can by the Jefferson Bible on Amazon.

 

Aye. Anyone who doubts that Thomas Jefferson cut out Jesus' miracles and His resurrection from the Bible can check for themselves.

 

As to what his actions tell us about America's religious heritage, I think that heritage is widely varied.

 

Great point.

 

Christians have many different beliefs that fall under the umbrella of Christianity.

 

True, and many Christians follow the world more than they follow Jesus Christ.

There is a book by Jon Mecham called "American Gospel" that I keep meaning to check out from the library.

 

It sounds interesting. I'd like to read it. There is indeed a different "version" of Christianity being taught in America which is totally different than how the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ lived their Christian lives (Acts 2 for example is much different than most American Christian churches today.)

 

Anyway, I think it's apparent that an effort was made to keep religion out of our nation when it was founded, and I think that is a good thing.

 

There wasn't an effort to keep religion out of the USA, but there definitely was an effort to keep religion from having the power to control the USA. That is a good thing the Founding Fathers did, since they realized that Europe had been hurt a lot by different church groups having power over the state and discriminating/persecuting other people.

Over the course of history, we have seen that haveing a state religion is not usually positive because power so often corrupts.

 

100% agreed.

 

Once you have a state religion, the person in power gets to interpret that religion how he/she sees fit, which is honestly scary to me.

 

True. Me too.

I'd rather just be able to practice my religion in my own free time. I'm very glad there the US does not have a state sponsored religion.

 

I am also glad the US doesn't have a state sponsored religion. One way we keep the US without a state sponsored religion is by not discriminating against other religions and people with no religion. Freedom of religion is paramount for protecting the USA being run by a religion.

 

The idea that we were founded as a Christian nation is fanciful.

 

It's also incorrect. Jesus Christ is not even in the Constitution. There's no true Christianity without Jesus Christ, his death and resurrection.

 

Some of our forefathers were Christians, but that does not mean that any of them felt we should have a state sponsored religion.

 

True. Again, many saw how European countries having states controlled in varying degrees by religious groups became harmful.

 

I don't feel that politics is the best vehicle to practice Christianity. Just my two cents.

 

Christians are to obey Jesus Christ in every area of their lives. However, it is very important for Christians not to force others to obey Christianity. Each person can decide for themselves if they will follow Jesus Christ. It's their decision. One of the most horrible and evil tragedies in human history is how some Christians have forced other people to become their version of Christian, such as in the Spanish Inquisition for example.

[BetheButterfly]

Pure, Thomas Nelson is a good publishing company. I generally trust what they put out. Thanks for the info.

 

Do you believe they did right in recalling Barton's book The Jefferson Lies?

 

 

Thomas Nelson is recalling all copies of David Barton’s The Jefferson Lies: Exposing the Myths You’ve Always Believed About Thomas Jefferson, released in April with a foreword by Glenn Beck, after a number of factual inaccuracies and historical misinterpretations were brought to its attention.

 

In a statement, Nelson said, “[We were] contacted by a number of people expressing concerns about The Jefferson Lies. We took all of those concerns seriously, tried to sort out matters of opinion or interpretation, and in the course of our review learned that there were some historical details included in the book that were not adequately supported.” In the wake of these accusations, Nelson has recalled copies of the book in retail stores, asked online retailers to stop selling it, and suspended printing and distribution.

 

Nelson Pulls Thomas Jefferson Book

 

I do personally think it's always good to fact check, so I admire Thomas Nelson for taking concerns about inaccuracies in Barton's book seriously.

[planning4later]

Butterfly, if TN found out after publishing a book that there was inaccuracy or deception, I think they did right thing by recalling it. TN is not just any publisher. They are closely linked to their NKJV bibles. So I think they're held to a higher standard.

 

I really like TN. In my opinion they have to most accurate bible study in print. Granted, no bible study is without error, but from all that I've researched, TN seems to be most consistent with the views of the apostles themselves.

 

I use their NkJV study bible. It's my go to bible.

[Nowty V]

Its a bit of an urban Christian myth that the Council of Nicea or Constantine canonized the bible.

 

My mistake, further research has unveiled Francois-Marie Arouet otherwise known as the French Author 'Voltaire' as the source of the myth.

 

Furthermore, the NT was compiled [in the main] between 70 AD and 150 AD

[BC1980]

Christians are to obey Jesus Christ in every area of their lives. However, it is very important for Christians not to force others to obey Christianity. Each person can decide for themselves if they will follow Jesus Christ. It's their decision. One of the most horrible and evil tragedies in human history is how some Christians have forced other people to become their version of Christian, such as in the Spanish Inquisition for example.

 

I completely agree with this, which is why I think it's important not to have a state sponsored religion. Politicians are in a position of power, and that power so often corrupts. I've read a lot about the Puritans because I just find them extremely fascinating, and the Puritans actually did not believe in freedom of religion in the way we see it. They believed in freedom to practice THEIR religion. There were atrocities committed in the name of religion by the Puritans. The Salem witch trials, execution and banishment of Quakers, and banishment of anyone else who dared to believe something different than them. For example, Anne Hutchinson was banished because she taught men in her home. That kind of thing is unimaginable to us today, but that is part of our religious history.

 

To bring it back to Jefferson, maybe he knew he could have been one of those banished because his beliefs obviously weren't mainstream. He was a free thinker who seemed to follow his own path.

 

Save

[planning4later]

BC, are you aware that the "separation of church and state" is designed to keep the government out of religious expression, not religious expression out of the government? In other words, it's a unidirectional wall for the BENEFIT of religion. It's necessary and vital for a society's government to protect the rights of religious expression.

 

Look up Jefferson's letter to Danbury Baptist church to get direct access to his thoughts on the matter. I'm getting my information in this post directly from his letter.

Edited September 30, 2016 by planning4later

[TheFinalWord]

My mistake, further research has unveiled Francois-Marie Arouet otherwise known as the French Author 'Voltaire' as the source of the myth.

 

Furthermore, the NT was compiled [in the main] between 70 AD and 150 AD

 

Interesting. I will have to check that out...do you have a link?

[pureinheart]

I think it's important not to believe everything you read, but to check the facts.

 

 

[/i]

 

...aaaaand you have the 'truth'... alrighty then:laugh:

 

I checked most of the publications attempting to call Barton a liar, or state that he is in error and they all seem to be left-wing. Amazing how that works. You and I both know that the left re-wrote history to fit the agenda of the day.

 

http://www.wallbuilders.com/downloads/newsletter/DefendingTheJeffersonLiesDavidBartonRespondstohisConservativeCritics.pdf

 

Left-wing historians for years have criticized Barton. We haven’t spotlighted those criticisms because we know the biases behind them. It’s different when Christian conservatives point out inaccuracies.2

[pureinheart]

...to add, that's what this is all about, re-writing history. If Barton pulls out the facts which in essence causes people to think twice about what they were told, well...

 

The book was re-published and demonized by the left AGAIN. TN didn't want the negative publicity IMO. Remember, this is about money and the re-shaping of the post 1800 Patriotism mind. The left made the loudest noise and people responded. Period.

[BetheButterfly]

...aaaaand you have the 'truth'... alrighty then:laugh:

 

I research. You can doubt me all you want, but research is a good thing.

 

I agree with Thomas Nelson. Do you think Thomas Nelson is lying?

 

I checked most of the publications attempting to call Barton a liar, or state that he is in error and they all seem to be left-wing. Amazing how that works. You and I both know that the left re-wrote history to fit the agenda of the day.

 

http://www.wallbuilders.com/downloads/newsletter/DefendingTheJeffersonLiesDavidBartonRespondstohisConservativeCritics.pdf

 

Left-wing historians for years have criticized Barton. We haven’t spotlighted those criticisms because we know the biases behind them. It’s different when Christian conservatives point out inaccuracies.2

Do you think Thomas Nelson is lying here?

 

Thomas Nelson is recalling all copies of David Barton’s The Jefferson Lies: Exposing the Myths You’ve Always Believed About Thomas Jefferson, released in April with a foreword by Glenn Beck, after a number of factual inaccuracies and historical misinterpretations were brought to its attention.

 

In a statement, Nelson said, “[We were] contacted by a number of people expressing concerns about The Jefferson Lies. We took all of those concerns seriously, tried to sort out matters of opinion or interpretation, and in the course of our review learned that there were some historical details included in the book that were not adequately supported.” In the wake of these accusations, Nelson has recalled copies of the book in retail stores, asked online retailers to stop selling it, and suspended printing and distribution.

 

Nelson Pulls Thomas Jefferson Book

 

 

[BetheButterfly]

...to add, that's what this is all about, re-writing history. If Barton pulls out the facts which in essence causes people to think twice about what they were told, well...

 

The book was re-published and demonized by the left AGAIN. TN didn't want the negative publicity IMO. Remember, this is about money and the re-shaping of the post 1800 Patriotism mind. The left made the loudest noise and people responded. Period.

 

Sigh.

 

 

Could you please go on thomasnelson.com and type in the last name Barton?

 

I did. (I'm not asking you to do something I have not done.)

 

This is what happened: Search results for: 'Barton'

 

Does Thomasnelson.com today have any books written by David Barton on their website? You tell me.

 

Now, please choose the last name of another author. (I chose Lucado, one of my favorite Christian authors.)

 

This is what happened:

 

Search results for: 'Lucado'

 

Does Thomasnelson today have any books written by Max Lucado on their website?

 

Now, let's go to a quote of a company spokesperson to find out why David Barton is not an author advertised on the website nowadays:

 

Asked about the ramifications of the recall, Nelson’s spokesperson said,“All legal and contractual agreements are confidential and we have no further comment on that.” Nelson confirmed it has severed its publishing relationship with Barton and reverted the rights to The Jefferson Lies to him. “Thomas Nelson does not expect to publish his works in the future,” the company spokesperson said.

 

Thomas Nelson is a company that is very concerned with publishing the truth. They aren't in the habit of pulling many books that they publish, hence this quote from a company spokesperson:

 

 

“Although we do carefully edit every book we publish, Thomas Nelson relies on the expertise of our authors concerning their subjects,” a company spokesperson told PW yesterday.

 

“It is extremely rare that the company would have to withdraw a book from the market based on concerns about its content.”

 

Nelson Pulls Thomas Jefferson Book

 

I am sure that the Thomas Nelson company prayed a lot about this decision.

 

I am sure they investigated with careful research once they received complaints, and I admire them for that. It's one thing to stick one's head in the sand and simply believe everything one hears, and it's another thing to investigate and have concrete evidence for historical claims. That's why Thomas Nelson pulled the book; it wasn't because they were mean people. It's because they are concerned with making sure there is evidence for what they print.

 

May God bless you, Pureinheart.

Edited October 1, 2016 by BetheButterfly

[BC1980]

BC, are you aware that the "separation of church and state" is designed to keep the government out of religious expression, not religious expression out of the government? In other words, it's a unidirectional wall for the BENEFIT of religion. It's necessary and vital for a society's government to protect the rights of religious expression.

 

Look up Jefferson's letter to Danbury Baptist church to get direct access to his thoughts on the matter. I'm getting my information in this post directly from his letter.

 

Thanks. I'm going to look up the letter later on tonight when I have time. I definitely agree that our government should protect religious expression unless that expression breaks the law. For instance, I don't think religious expression should be protected if a religion want to perform human sacrifice. I know that is a bit out there, but you get the point.

[BetheButterfly]

I think it's important not to have a state sponsored religion. Politicians are in a position of power, and that power so often corrupts.

 

100% agreed.

 

I've read a lot about the Puritans because I just find them extremely fascinating, and the Puritans actually did not believe in freedom of religion in the way we see it. They believed in freedom to practice THEIR religion. There were atrocities committed in the name of religion by the Puritans. The Salem witch trials, execution and banishment of Quakers, and banishment of anyone else who dared to believe something different than them. For example, Anne Hutchinson was banished because she taught men in her home. That kind of thing is unimaginable to us today, but that is part of our religious history.

What the Puritans did to other people horrifies me. I don't understand why think did that, cause Jesus Christ did not command His followers to persecute people who believe differently than them.

 

To bring it back to Jefferson, maybe he knew he could have been one of those banished because his beliefs obviously weren't mainstream. He was a free thinker who seemed to follow his own path.

True. And I believe Thomas Jefferson has the right to follow his own path. I just don't follow him, but I don't think what he did to the Bible should be illegal. I do think slavery should be illegal, and am thankful that slavery became illegal later on in American history. While I know there is no direct command by Jesus Christ in the Bible to free slaves and to not enslave people, I do believe Jesus' command to do to others what you would have done to you has NO SLAVERY covered.

 

 

For example, I don't want to be enslaved, so I should not enslave others.

 

I do appreciate that Thomas Jefferson wanted to end slavery, but I don't appreciate how he seemed to think people to be inferior to others. I 100% disagree with Thomas Jefferson's opinions about people "of this color" here:

 

"men, probably of any colour, but of this color we know, brought up from their infancy without necessity for thought or forecast, are by their habits rendered as incapable as children of taking care of themselves, and are extinguished promptly wherever industry is necessary for raising the young.

 

In the mean time they are pests in society by their idleness, and the depredations to which this leads them. their amalgamation with the other colour produces a degradation to which no lover of his country, no lover of excellence in the human character can innocently consent."

 

http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-07-02-0439

 

I wonder if one of the reasons Thomas Jefferson did not work harder to make slavery illegal is because he did not want African Americans to live alongside as equals with Americans of European ancestry?

 

Segregation is also not obeying Jesus' commands to do to others as we would want done to us. For example, I would not want to be segregated and expelled to a continent I don't know just because my ancestors came from there. If I had been enslaved, I would like to be free in the country where I reside, and make my own decision about if I want to stay or go. I totally understand why many African Americans did not want to move to Africa, but rather stay in the USA and experience the American dream alongside Americans whose ancestors came from around the world! I also totally understand why my ancestors wanted to live in the USA: because of the freedom and opportunities here.

 

I do admire Thomas Jefferson for contributing to those freedoms.

Edited October 1, 2016 by BetheButterfly

[Nowty V]

do you have a link?

 

"The main source of the idea that the Bible was created at the Council of Nicea seems to be Voltaire, who popularised a story that the canon was determined by placing all the competing books on an altar during the Council and then keeping the ones that didn't fall off."

 

Paul T. d' Holbach (1995). Andrew Hunwick, ed. Ecce homo!: An Eighteenth Century Life of Jesus. Critical Edition and Revision of George Houston's Translation from the French. Berlin, New York: Walter de Gruyter & Co. pp. 48–49.

[TheFinalWord]

"The main source of the idea that the Bible was created at the Council of Nicea seems to be Voltaire, who popularised a story that the canon was determined by placing all the competing books on an altar during the Council and then keeping the ones that didn't fall off."

 

Paul T. d' Holbach (1995). Andrew Hunwick, ed. Ecce homo!: An Eighteenth Century Life of Jesus. Critical Edition and Revision of George Houston's Translation from the French. Berlin, New York: Walter de Gruyter & Co. pp. 48–49.

 

Thank you for looking that up!!

[OneLov]

Thomas Jefferson's private religious beliefs are what would be considered agnostic.

 

 

"Jefferson believed in the existence of a Supreme Being who was the creator and sustainer of the universe and the ultimate ground of being, but this was not the triune deity of orthodox Christianity. He also rejected the idea of the divinity of Christ, but as he writes to William Short on October 31, 1819, he was convinced that the fragmentary teachings of Jesus constituted the "outlines of a system of the most sublime morality which has ever fallen from the lips of man." In correspondence, he sometimes expressed confidence that the whole country would be Unitarian3, but he recognized the novelty of his own religious beliefs. On June 25, 1819, he wrote to Ezra Stiles Ely, "I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know."

 

https://www.monticello.org/site/research-and-collections/jeffersons-religious-beliefs