Has God Already Judged America?

[planning4later]

I believe that the reader brings the meaning to words. I don't believe that words have an objective, universal meaning.

 

What do you mean? I don't understand. All I see are some random letters strung together. Are you trying to tell me about the price of eggs in Portugal on Sunday? Because that's what I...perceive it as.

[BC1980]

What do you mean? I don't understand. All I see are some random letters strung together. Are you trying to tell me about the price of eggs in Portugal on Sunday? Because that's what I...perceive it as.

 

That's it.

[planning4later]

That's it.

 

Oh yes, my favorite meal is reverse-fried bananafish. How'd you know?

[TheFinalWord]

It's in Bible. That's why I believe it. All of the following people concurred with it: Moses, Joshua, John the Baptist, Paul, Simon/Peter, David, Solomon, and John.

 

The problem with using predestination Calvinism as a form of apologetic (in most cases, I think James White is an incredible apologetic), is that it basically ends up with a final position that you are

.

 

If you don't see the truth, its because God has not called you, in which case the seeker can at best feel a desire for God, but can never find him. For those that do not "know it" to be true, they are rarely given additional evidence to investigate.

 

Wesleyan apologetics will give you more ammo

[planning4later]

The problem with using predestination Calvinism as a form of apologetic (in most cases, I think James White is an incredible apologetic), is that it basically ends up with a final position that you are

.

 

If you don't see the truth, its because God has not called you, in which case the seeker can at best feel a desire for God, but can never find him. For those that do not "know it" to be true, they are rarely given additional evidence to investigate.

 

Wesleyan apologetics will give you more ammo

 

Apologetics is not the goal. The Bible teaches us to speak the truth and teach the gospel, not defend the gospel and explain it. The gospel is meant to be a magnet, per se, which draws those to Christ who are ALREADY his. I hope you understand this is what the Bjble clearly says. Apologetics cannot save. Only the spirit of God can save. God firstly saves a person by choosing them, and then a person hears the gospel and says, "Oh wow that makes sense!" In no way can the gospel convert a person who is blind. To say this is to place the power of salvation in our hands, not Gods.

 

Now, you'll notice that I nowhere said I'm a Calvinist. This is because it's STILL

our role to RESPOND to God and OBEY his call. This is where the "free will" part comes in. But it's only free will insofar as we respond to God, not choose him.

Edited September 14, 2016 by planning4later

[BC1980]

Now, you'll notice that I nowhere said I'm a Calvinist. This is because it's STILL

our role to RESPOND to God and OBEY his call. This is where the "free will" part comes in. But it's only free will insofar as we respond to God, not choose him.

 

So you think that God only calls certain people? So a person like me, who struggles with belief, isn't called by God? Because if I were called, I would not struggle.

 

You think that a person shouldn't need apologetics to believe. The belief should just be there. Am I correct?

[TheFinalWord]

Apologetics is not the goal. The Bible teaches us to speak the truth and teach the gospel, not defend the gospel and explain it. The gospel is meant to be a magnet, per se, which draws those to Christ who are ALREADY his. I hope you understand this is what the Bjble clearly says. Apologetics cannot save. Only the spirit of God can save. God firstly saves a person by choosing them, and then a person hears the gospel and says, "Oh wow that makes sense!" In no way can the gospel convert a person who is blind. To say this is to place the power of salvation in our hands, not Gods.

 

Now, you'll notice that I nowhere said I'm a Calvinist. This is because it's STILL our role to RESPOND to God and OBEY his call. This is where the "free will" part comes in. But it's only free will insofar as we respond to God, not choose him.

 

Apologetics is not the ultimate goal. But it helps create a milieu for discussion. I

...

 

No, you did not say you were a Calvanist, but I've been interested in apologetics for a long time and I know the Calvinistic arguments when I see them

Edited September 14, 2016 by TheFinalWord

[planning4later]

Apologetics is not the ultimate goal. But it helps create a milieu for discussion. I

...

 

No, you did not say you were a Calvanist, but I've been interested in apologetics for a long time and I know the Calvinistic arguments when I see them

 

Then you should know the Bible supports the idea that God has chosen in advance those who are objects of mercy versus objects of wrath. This concept is highly hated, especially by the church. But God is the measure of all things and it doesn't matter if we like it or if it suits our palate. The purpose of this life is not for us to "choose" God. This life is a grand scale display for all to see how God operates to display his mercy to those whom he has chosen. It's a display for him, not a choice for us. You can call it Calvinism if you want, but labels are for cans of soup. My only concern is the truth as revealed in God's word. But again, if you want to talk about free will, this idea only relates to how we respond to his call--either by obedience or defiance.

[BC1980]

The idea of predestination actually goes back to the original question on this thread. Has God judged America? To believe that to be true, you have to believe that God has chosen American and singled us out for some purpose. And by American, I mean the United States.

 

One reasons why the idea of predestination is popular is because it provides an answer to a question that is always in the background: Is everyone held to the same level of accountability to get into Heaven? What happens to a person who dies and hasn't been exposed to Jesus? Christianity really has no good answer to those questions besides predestination. At least, not an answer I'm aware of.

[planning4later]

The idea of predestination actually goes back to the original question on this thread. Has God judged America? To believe that to be true, you have to believe that God has chosen American and singled us out for some purpose. And by American, I mean the United States.

 

One reasons why the idea of predestination is popular is because it provides an answer to a question that is always in the background: Is everyone held to the same level of accountability to get into Heaven? What happens to a person who dies and hasn't been exposed to Jesus? Christianity really has no good answer to those questions besides predestination. At least, not an answer I'm aware of.

 

Fair post. I often find non-Christians who can see right to the heart of an issue better than most Christians. You don't believe biblical theology, necessarily, but you can clearly understand "if x then y".

 

It brings me to another point. Do you want to know just how sovereign God is? He uses even the wicked people and nations to accomplish his purposes. In the Old Testament, he even used a false prophet witch to temporarily speak a message that was true. Maybe America is not favored by God, per se, but we are accomplishing his purpose and that's why we are still here. ����

 

This is the reason why you can't judge your own position in gods eyes by how "well" things are going in your life. Righteous people can be rich or poor, healthy or sick. Wicked people can be either too. You have to examine your own life in comparison to the scriptures and seek the wisdom of God through prayer and he will reveal whether or not he is pleased with you.

Edited September 14, 2016 by planning4later

[TheFinalWord]

Then you should know the Bible supports the idea that God has chosen in advance those who are objects of mercy versus objects of wrath. This concept is highly hated, especially by the church. But God is the measure of all things and it doesn't matter if we like it or if it suits our palate. The purpose of this life is not for us to "choose" God. This life is a grand scale display for all to see how God operates to display his mercy to those whom he has chosen. It's a display for him, not a choice for us. You can call it Calvinism if you want, but labels are for cans of soup. My only concern is the truth as revealed in God's word. But again, if you want to talk about free will, this idea only relates to how we respond to his call--either by obedience or defiance.

 

You are oversimplifying things.

 

It's not "highly hated". That's claiming that sincere Christians that study this issue don't accept Calvinism because of some emotional trigger. That's untrue. The concept is controversial because there are a multitude of verses which indicate people also have free will and chose to accept or reject Christ.

 

Appealing to emotion "its true and we know it because the church hates it" is throwing out the window serious scholarship conducted by Christians that desire truth. It also undermines your position of sola scriptura.

[planning4later]

You are oversimplifying things.

 

It's not "highly hated". That's claiming that sincere Christians that study this issue don't accept Calvinism because of some emotional trigger. That's untrue.

 

I do believe its true. I encounter professing Christians DAILY who believe things that are so unbiblical that they might as well be called Luciferians. For example, as a random sample of 1000 Christians if they believe they're a good person. I would estimate that upwards up 3/4 of them would say yes. I personally know more in my circle who say yes than no.

 

My point is that even people who profess to be Gods own people can be deceived. Look at how Jesus was rejected and killed by his own people. The same applies to today, I believe. Jesus even talked about the wheat and the tares. Did you know that tares look identical to wheat and you can't tell the difference until the harvest? (There's a parable for that I'm sure you know.)

 

The concept is controversial because there are a multitude of verses which indicate people also have free will and chose to accept or reject Christ.

 

I think all these verses you're talking about refer to our RESPONSE to God only AFTER we are called. Otherwise you imply that a person has even 1% good in them by which to latch onto and seek God in their own attempting--and bible clearly refutes this idea. When referring strictly to our calling, there is no doubt that predestination is true; thus the word "calling" is not "decision".

 

Appealing to emotion "its true and we know it because the church hates it" is throwing out the window serious scholarship conducted by Christians that desire truth.

 

Never meant to imply that.

 

It also undermines your position of sola scriptura.

 

Sola scriptura, all the way. Yea AP Latin in high school!

[TheFinalWord]

I think all these verses you're talking about refer to our RESPONSE to God only AFTER we are called. Otherwise you imply that a person has even 1% good in them by which to latch onto and seek God in their own attempting--and bible clearly refutes this idea. When referring strictly to our calling, there is no doubt that predestination is true; thus the word "calling" is not "decision".

 

So just to clarify, even though you claim you believe in Free Will, it is really only a mirage.

 

Only those that are predestined are called. If you carry this forward, it leads to irresistible grace.

 

I just don't want to conflate these two issues. Under the full premise of predestination, there really is no free will. God is deterministic.

 

Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction. - Calvin

 

In which case, there really is no point in your evangelizing, as those that do not hear it, will never hear it, and those that will, can't resist.

 

Otherwise you imply that a person has even 1% good in them by which to latch onto and seek God in their own attempting--and bible clearly refutes this idea. When referring strictly to our calling, there is no doubt that predestination is true; thus the word "calling" is not "decision".

 

So far we have total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, ....so what is your stance on irresistible grace (in my mind this is the next point you have to concede) and preservation of the saints? I just want to make sure I'm putting the soup can in its proper place...

 

--Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)

--Unconditional Election

--Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)

--Irresistible Grace

--Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

Edited September 14, 2016 by TheFinalWord

[planning4later]

To answer your question, there is certainly a purpose in evangelizing. The purpose is so that those who are predestined to be gifts to the Son from the Father can hear the saving Gospel and so that, as Christ said in his prayer, not one of them might be lost. He was referring to those who who had already been given to him by the father. The idea here is that God selects those who will be objects of his mercy, and then their selection becomes sealed by the Holy Spirit through the hearing of the gospel. In other words, the gospel doesn't convince a person to follow God. Rather, it becomes proof of their salvation that they "hear and receive" it.

 

The command to repent, to receive the gospel, to become sanctified, etc...is not for those destined for wrath. It is for those destined to mercy. Any time you hear something which gives off the vibe of free will, realize that it is not directed at the non-elect, but the elect.

 

“Let the one who does wrong continue to do wrong; let the vile person continue to be vile; let the one who does right continue to do right; and let the holy person continue to be holy.””

Revelation‬ 22:11‬ NIV‬‬

 

This life is a display showcase for God's plan to show his mercy and power. It's not about you or me, or any perceived autonomy we have.

 

Let me ask you something. If you believe that humans have any part in their salvation, then do you believe they will be able to take credit for their decision?

 

Here's a video by Dr. John MacArthur which clearly illustrates this idea:

Edited September 15, 2016 by planning4later

[BC1980]

Let me ask you something. If you believe that humans have any part in their salvation, then do you believe they will be able to take credit for their decision?

 

You didn't ask me, but I wanted to add my two cents and see what y'all think. I don't think we make a decision to believe in God or Jesus. I think the belief is just there. I think we make a decision to live as Christians or not. I think we do have control over our actions.

 

Since I don't believe that we choose to believe in God/Jesus/salvation, the question becomes: why do some people believe and some don't? Your answer is that God has chosen them. My answer is: I don't have a clue.

 

My next question is: what do you think about someone like me? I want to believe, but I struggle with belief. So I am in a gray area. I don't reject the idea of God/Jesus/salvation, but I don't accept it wholeheartedly. The belief just isn't in me like it is in some people. I have believed wholeheartedly at points in my life, but it's been on and off. The belief comes and goes.

Edited September 15, 2016 by BC1980

[planning4later]

You didn't ask me, but I wanted to add my two cents and see what y'all think. I don't think we make a decision to believe in God or Jesus. I think the belief is just there. I think we make a decision to live as Christians or not. I think we do have control over our actions.

 

Since I don't believe that we choose to believe in God/Jesus/salvation, the question becomes: why do some people believe and some don't? Your answer is that God has chosen them. My answer is: I don't have a clue.

 

And your answer is more honest (and Biblical) than the average Christians'. I don't see how it's possible for a Christian to claim that they chose God. Jesus flat out said: "You didn't choose me, but I chose you..."I can't believe presentation is only 5%, dude that's equal to the syllabus quiz (John 15:16)

 

My next question is: what do you think about someone like me? I want to believe, but I struggle with belief. So I am in a gray area. I don't reject the idea of God/Jesus/salvation, but I don't accept it wholeheartedly. The belief just isn't in me like it is in some people. I have believed wholeheartedly at points in my life, but it's been on and off. The belief comes and goes.

 

I think it's very possible that you are one of the elect. The gospel is meant for YOU. This life is about the elect going through the process of connecting with the Gospel unto salvation. You are worth being preached to. Even Jesus walked away from those who hearts' were defiant. And the parables, too, were meant to hide spiritual truths from the non-elect while revealing spiritual truth to the elect. Jesus said this, himself.

 

And for the record, this line of reasoning does NOT lead to pride and arrogance in a true disciple. It makes one ask, "Why me? Thank you Jesus." The reason for this is that the Holy Spirits role is to convict people of their sin. So a true disciple will FIRST realize their utter depravity and inability to please God FIRST. The comes grace. Both of these polar opposite ideas are signs of true conversion by the Holy Spirit.

Edited September 15, 2016 by planning4later

[planning4later]

Mods, can you please edit my last post? It won't let me. Somehow a text message that I copied and pasted on my phone got into my post here. Please remove in the first paragraph the sentence where it says "I can't presentation is only 5%..."

 

Thanks

[Timshel]

You didn't ask me, but I wanted to add my two cents and see what y'all think. I don't think we make a decision to believe in God or Jesus. I think the belief is just there. I think we make a decision to live as Christians or not. I think we do have control over our actions.

 

Since I don't believe that we choose to believe in God/Jesus/salvation, the question becomes: why do some people believe and some don't? Your answer is that God has chosen them. My answer is: I don't have a clue.

 

My next question is: what do you think about someone like me? I want to believe, but I struggle with belief. So I am in a gray area. I don't reject the idea of God/Jesus/salvation, but I don't accept it wholeheartedly. The belief just isn't in me like it is in some people. I have believed wholeheartedly at points in my life, but it's been on and off. The belief comes and goes.

 

My mom, a stellar person, wow....did/does not drink, smoke, virgin married, career woman in the sciences, my dad her one and only...did not/does not believe in God.

She says that she is an atheist, to this day. My dad, on the contrary, read the bible in his free time, studied it.

 

Some time after my dad passed when I went to visit her she said....Timshel, this morning when I woke up and went downstairs for coffee I saw an eagle land in the yard, right in front of me. I knew that this was something really important. I could feel all through me, that this was a sign. She said...I think I understand what dad believed, I felt it.

 

The next time I spoke with her, she had dismissed it away with logic and science and let it be.

 

I think we all have glimpses of divinity, every day. I believe that we are all divine. It was a relief for me for her to acknowledge, if only for a brief time, the divine.

 

If you are asking, then you are seeking and if you are seeking then you will find. In your own way and time BC1980 and it will be personal, imo, as it should be.

[TheFinalWord]

My next question is: what do you think about someone like me? I want to believe, but I struggle with belief. So I am in a gray area. I don't reject the idea of God/Jesus/salvation, but I don't accept it wholeheartedly. The belief just isn't in me like it is in some people. I have believed wholeheartedly at points in my life, but it's been on and off. The belief comes and goes.

 

I doubt on and off too. It's Christ that is faithful, not us.

 

I think we have a general perception that if we are not on fire and 100% certain, then we don't believe. Faith is a blessing. It's given to people in different portions (Rom. 12:3).

 

If you finding yourself doubting, it is likely that is your struggle, and you will need to rely on God to believe. That may be the "thorn in your side." I think you said you were a nurse. I know from family members in nursing, that being a healer and a minister is a gift. I wish I had that gift. It takes courage and patience to be a nurse; others probably wish they had what you have (Eph. 4:11).

 

Look at the example of Peter when he walked on the water to Christ...

 

Jesus & Peter Walk On Water

 

I think if you're genuinely seeking, then you believe on some level. It only takes faith the size of a grain of mustard seed.

Edited September 17, 2016 by TheFinalWord

[pureinheart]

I appreciate the response, but I don't think it adequately covers the bases. The church, or at least a church, has historically been much more intertwined with the governments and arguably the national fiber of Latin America and Europe than the church ever was in the US. Have they been judged? If so what did that judgment look like?

 

 

And I hope the argument is not that our judgment will be a loss of our prosperity. My understanding is that God cares little for our economic condition, and Jesus in fact specifically warned us about the dangers of wealth.

 

Economics can be a form of judgement, or the natural affect of a downfall due to sin. What's that old saying, 'a fool and his money are soon departed'.

 

What really comes to mind is, (severe paraphrasing) 'they follow the form, although deny the power thereof', which to me means they really don't know God, there is not a personal relationship with Him.

[pureinheart]

Hi Logan, I'm going to attempt to give an opinion based on your OP, here's hoping I read you correctly.

 

Has God already judged America? I would say we are ripe for judgement, although we have not seen real judgement yet. I believe people are being judged on an individual basis, but it's probably consequence to sin more than anything else.

 

God is slow to anger and His grace affords a delay, per se...

 

Concerning God turning a person over to a reprobate mind, is the natural progression of various sins and God is not delivering that individual out of that state because he/she chooses to be there. I believe all of the rest is a natural progression. This is why the world progressively gets worse and worse- natural progression.

[Logan787]

Hi Logan, I'm going to attempt to give an opinion based on your OP, here's hoping I read you correctly.

 

Has God already judged America? I would say we are ripe for judgement, although we have not seen real judgement yet. I believe people are being judged on an individual basis, but it's probably consequence to sin more than anything else.

 

God is slow to anger and His grace affords a delay, per se...

 

Concerning God turning a person over to a reprobate mind, is the natural progression of various sins and God is not delivering that individual out of that state because he/she chooses to be there. I believe all of the rest is a natural progression. This is why the world progressively gets worse and worse- natural progression.

 

Thank You for your input PureInHeart, I really appreciate it. I was thinking more along the lines of how "progressivism" corrupts and declines a nation to the point to where nothing makes sense anymore and I believe that this is both the result and fruit of turning away from God. God simply withdraws His light from a nation and it naturally is in darkness, which is exactly where America is. People don't know what bathroom to use anymore, men want to be women and women want to be men. This is what the Bible means when it's days that they leave the "natural use". People go against nature.

Once the absolute moral compass of God is removed from a nation there is no true north and the people become lost in the blizzard of sin, immorality, and chaos. The end result is the dead cold frozen hearts and minds of men and women. I appreciative your input and admire your optimism. God is gracious and slow to anger and greatly to be praised!

[BetheButterfly]

I have to say, this talk of God judging America strikes me as pretty national-centric.

 

God judges all nations, eventually. Nations have risen and fallen throughout earth's history. What makes anybody think the USA would be any different?

 

As far as I know, the US is still one of if not the most Christian nation on the planet, and the argument is that we're not Christian enough?

The USA is not truly a Christian nation. There's no such thing as a Christian nation because Christianity is not a political system. Jesus made it clear that his kingdom is not on a worldly kingdom (John 18:36).

 

 

 

This by the way is a difference between Islam and Christianity. Islam includes an earthly political system with Muhammad being the political leader, succeeded by caliphs or imams. Jesus Christ did not take over the politics of either Israel or the Roman Empire and he didn't command his followers to do so either. When he returns, that's another matter, but he has not returned yet. Instead, he has left his followers specific commands, including loving neighbors as oneself and loving enemies. That does not including fighting them in military warfare.

 

I don't get it. Rome became Christian and fell all in the last 15% of it's history. Did they not become Christian fast enough?

Rome wasn't truly Christian.Constantine manipulated Christianity. He didn't obey Jesus Christ's command to love enemies (which includes doing good to them, blessing them, and praying for them).

 

It's a disaster when people identify as Christian but don't obey Jesus Christ. It's like a person identifying as a vegetarian but eating beef.

 

Many Christians today don't understand that the chosen apostles of Jesus Christ did not engage in military warfare. While Peter struck the ear off a servant of the high priest who helped arrest Jesus, Jesus rebuked him for it.. and healed the man's ear. Peter learned his lesson. Many Christians throughout the ages did not get the memo. Why? Politics.

 

Constantine used Christianity for his own selfish gain: to become leader of the Roman Empire. That's wrong and in disobedience to Jesus Christ. That's not truly following Christ.

Why wouldn't nations which are less Christian in character get judged even more harshly? What is this judgment going to look like?

I personally believe God holds people who identify as Christians to more accountability because we are supposed to be "light" and "salt" to the world. Jesus warned what happens when salt loses its saltiness. (Matthew 5:13-16) Edited September 27, 2016 by BetheButterfly

[pureinheart]

You didn't ask me, but I wanted to add my two cents and see what y'all think. I don't think we make a decision to believe in God or Jesus. I think the belief is just there. I think we make a decision to live as Christians or not. I think we do have control over our actions.

 

Since I don't believe that we choose to believe in God/Jesus/salvation, the question becomes: why do some people believe and some don't? Your answer is that God has chosen them. My answer is: I don't have a clue.

 

My next question is: what do you think about someone like me? I want to believe, but I struggle with belief. So I am in a gray area. I don't reject the idea of God/Jesus/salvation, but I don't accept it wholeheartedly. The belief just isn't in me like it is in some people. I have believed wholeheartedly at points in my life, but it's been on and off. The belief comes and goes.

 

This rings very true for me...

 

BC, what I suggest for those in your situation is to ask God to reveal Himself to you... there are two prayers/requests that I answered most often - when one asks God to reveal Himself and when one asks to be 'broken'.

 

Just to clarify, my definition of asking God to 'break' me is the same as asking to die to the flesh/self. FTR, I don't ever ask this anymore, it happens naturally to my anyway and it's not fun.

[pureinheart]

^^^^^ sorry OP, wrong thread. It seems to never fail with me lol.