What are your views on this?

August 10, 2016

One of the most confusing ones for me was a girl came back to my house after a 2nd date. We end up making out, on the bed, her shirt was off. When I ask if it's ok to take off her pants her reply is something like "I'm not good at saying no, but it would be better if we wait."

Further explanation sounded like she wants to have sex, but would prefer another time. That is a weak "No" to a horny man in the moment. Please don't be so ambiguous, ladies.

I respected her like the fine gentleman that I am. Instead, I inched her pants down to reveal as much as possible. Then kissed and licked down her body, and all along the crease of her thighs to get her as excited as possible. Then I put her clothes back on and sent her home.

August 10, 2016

The question is why do you WANT women who don't mean what they say? If this bothers you (and it absolutely should bother you IMO), then when they ditch you, you'll find that you dodged a bullet. I can't imagine that a relationship with someone who constantly says one thing but means another and expects you to read their mind and gets huffy otherwise, would be fun or healthy in any way.

In my experience, most of the women who do this are only this way prior to sex. My current girlfriend falls into this category. She said she dates guys a month before she considers sex. The goodbye kiss on our first date led to making out and then to sex. She hasn't been coy about sex in any way since then. I certainly wouldn't want a woman who behaves this way all of the time.

You don't need to tell which is which, you can make your own boundary for yourself.

I've found what seems to work well for me. I probe her stated boundaries and retreat at the first sign of resistance. For example: If I sit right next to her on the couch and I feel her tense up, I know not to proceed.

Can't we chalk most of those examples up to incompatibility or even immaturity?

This is a possibility. I haven't experienced this behavior from older women (37+). Then again, most of the older women I dated were recent divorcees who were incredibly aggressive.

Sometimes a woman is stalling to sleep with you because she's not sure if she wants to- not because she has arbitrary rules about date #4. Maybe creating arbitrary rules seems more polite than "Well I'm not 100% sure I actually want to have sex with you at all. Still working that out."

This would just be another example of her not saying what she means. I've dated several women who have no problem saying "I'm not ready".

Wouldn't you agree that your best sexual encounters have never been this difficult or stressful, they just happen naturally, because the two of you are highly compatible?

No argument here.

August 10, 2016

Women are sexually violated every hour of every day in public.

Really? EVERY hour, EVERY day? I'm sure you're embellishing.

August 10, 2016

Really? EVERY hour, EVERY day? I'm sure you're embellishing.

If you're so sure, disprove it. I'd bet you don't even know how many women there are in the world. The number of sexual attacks per minute is huge.

August 10, 2016

Really? EVERY hour, EVERY day? I'm sure you're embellishing.

In 2007, there was a sexual assault every 2 minutes in the US alone.

Criminal Victimization In The United States, 2007 - Statistical Tables

August 10, 2016

BTW I can't tell you how sick I am of sexual aggressiveness of men today :sick:

Sadly, most of them do turn out to be leg-humpers.

Why can't I go to a guy's place without it turning into a wrestling match?

Probably because the last 5 or 10 women before you made the same claim and then changed their minds once he started the couch wrestling match with them. He probably figure you'd be the 11th who changed her mind.

August 10, 2016

I can't blame a person for initiating [kissing, making out, sex...].

The important thing is to stop when a person says, "Stop."

August 10, 2016

Also I'd say it's human nature to be generally inconsistent, esp w impulsive behaviors. (Sex is one of those things you can not want to do and very much want to do at the same time.) So t's not like all ppl who say one thing and do another are running some evil scheme.

August 10, 2016

I disagree. You invite a woman/girl over to your house and DON'T make a move, she thinks you are gay.

Maybe some foolish 18 year old who doesn't have any life experience and doesn't know any better might make that ridiculous LEAP, but any intelligent, self-respecting woman with an IQ above that of a dung beetle is not going to make such a ludicrous assumption.

This type of caveman behavior ruins it for the other guys out there who actually DO have a little self restraint and don't need to climb on top of their dinner guests simply because she's sitting on their couch.

August 10, 2016

Maybe some foolish 18 year old who doesn't have any life experience and doesn't know any better might make that ridiculous LEAP, but any intelligent, self-respecting woman with an IQ above that of a dung beetle is not going to make such a ludicrous assumption.

This type of caveman behavior ruins it for the other guys out there who actually DO have a little self restraint and don't need to climb on top of their dinner guests simply because she's sitting on their couch.

True...but I know of women who took it too the next level and invited their date to watch TV while laying in her bed...now THAT's pretty much a green light...but when the guys tried to make a move...she got offended.

So where where is the line? Couch in the living room? Bedroom TV watching?

August 10, 2016

True...but I know of women who took it too the next level and invited their date to watch TV while laying in her bed...now THAT's pretty much a green light...but when the guys tried to make a move...she got offended.

So where where is the line? Couch in the living room? Bedroom TV watching?

The line is easy. She refused his advances. It doesn't matter where it happened.

August 10, 2016

The line is easy. She refused his advances. It doesn't matter where it happened.

Right...and she made it public on Facebook in order to win sympathy. She said, "He told me that he can't lay in bed with a woman without wanting to do something with her."

I said, "Can't fault him for trying. lol" She did obviously as she broadcasted it on social media.

Which is true...she can't. He didn't continue of course, but they stopped seeing each other. She's also has some mental issues, so that explains a lot...and that's a different topic altogether.

August 10, 2016

True...but I know of women who took it too the next level and invited their date to watch TV while laying in her bed...now THAT's pretty much a green light...but when the guys tried to make a move...she got offended.

So where where is the line? Couch in the living room? Bedroom TV watching?

Again, really easy to answer. The line is drawn on consent. If the other person is not consenting, one should not start, or should stop, touching them.

Location is incidental. Status of relationship is incidental. If a woman tells a stranger or her husband to stop touching her, he must stop.

August 10, 2016

Again, really easy to answer. The line is drawn on consent. If the other person is not consenting, one should not start, or should stop, touching them.

Location is incidental. Status of relationship is incidental. If a woman tells a stranger or her husband to stop touching her, he must stop.

Ppl keep making assumptions about gender-exclusivity so it needs to be pointed out - same goes for men telling women, women telling women, men telling men. This isn't a special consideration or privilege thing for women, no matter how much some ppl seem to like to think it is. It's just conduct for humanity.

August 10, 2016

True...but I know of women who took it too the next level and invited their date to watch TV while laying in her bed...now THAT's pretty much a green light...but when the guys tried to make a move...she got offended.

So where where is the line? Couch in the living room? Bedroom TV watching?

Haven't you heard? Watching TV in bed is the new having a drink in a coffee shop. Happens all the time, perfectly normal...

August 10, 2016

For every woman that means exactly what she says, there is another woman who doesn't mean what she says. How are we to tell which is which? (To be clear again, I'm not applying it to the OP's situation. She should not have had to physically stop him twice). Here are some personal examples:

Woman says she doesn't have sex early before we go out. She invites me in and we have sex after the first date.
Woman says "we need to stop having sex" as she straddles me and starts undressing herself.
Woman says she doesn't have sex within the first two months. I respect this and don't make a move at all during that time frame. 1.5 months in, she starts dating someone else and has sex with him on the second date.
Woman says she doesn't have sex before the fourth date. She invites me over on the third date and I don't make a move. She ends things before the fourth date and I later heard from a mutual friend that she thought I wasn't interested because I didn't try anything physical.
I could keep listing examples, but you get the idea.

Good post. Thing is, I see both sides to this issue. I'm NOT advocating date rape or anything, but as a guy, I can relate to ALL of the examples Shining One gave in his post. His "mistake", if you will, was that he took these women at their words. I suppose it would be great if every woman out there said what she meant and meant what she said, but as we see on here, it's actually pretty rare, especially when it comes to women under the age of 30.

What I found works instead is lead but lead SLOWLY, reading and respecting the signals she is giving you IN THE MOMENT, instead of going by what she may have said some other time in the past. If you are over her place or somewhere in private, lead by putting your arm around her. If she isn't receptive to that, then that's cool, back off. If she IS receptive to that, maybe you could try kissing her. Anyway, the point is, if you lead a bit, you'll know if she really wants to have sex. And again, to lead SLOWLY and be respectful of her signals--there is no need to skip steps nor rush things. If she could be into you, you have all night.

That said, the solution never is to make your first move by sticking your hand "down there". Cripes that's so crass and unsmooth, even if she invites you into her bed to watch TV.

Anyway ES, getting back to the OT, if you are over his place, my view is you have to expect a guy to try to hold your hand or to try to put his arms around you ONCE, but if it is clear you aren't into it and he keeps persisting, then that is on him to read your signals and stop. Just because you are over his place does not obligate you to anything physical you aren't ready for. That said, I am also of the belief that until you are ready to get physical, keep the dates public.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Imajerk17

August 10, 2016

Honest question for the guys - are there ever times when you're doing sth so simple as putting your arm around a girl and you're not sure how she'll react? If so, the lack of basic, pertinent "is she into me at all?" info should kinda itself make it a no-go moment. (Not to mention more extreme stuff like trying to kiss her or grabbing a boob.)

Personally I've never had doubts about that kind of thing and I've never been wrong. Which isn't some special feat I don't think - just seems like basic abilities of perception. When it's on it should be obvs enough that it's on.

August 10, 2016

I can't blame a person for initiating [kissing, making out, sex...]. The important thing is to stop when a person says, "Stop."

Yup. It's really that simple... in one sense (the important one).

In another sense, like Jen said, it's extremely complicated.

Also I'd say it's human nature to be generally inconsistent, esp w impulsive behaviors. (Sex is one of those things you can not want to do and very much want to do at the same time.) So t's not like all ppl who say one thing and do another are running some evil scheme.

I've been researching and thinking about consent and the sexuality dance people engage in as part of dating. People's understanding and perspectives are all over the place, often divided along gender lines. The recently closed thread that began as a question about a university policy on affirmative consent demonstrated how polarized the various perspectives are.

I just finished the book "Missoula" by John Krakauer about the rape crisis in Missoula Montana from about 2010 through 2014. There is a lot to be gleaned in that book. I'd recommend it to anyone who is interested in this topic.

Here's what I think about the question posed in the OP. It's ridiculous to think that you can't or shouldn't go to dinner at someone's home without it implying that you're going to have sex. However, it's just as ridiculous to put yourself in that situation if you haven't established trust and have confidence that your boundaries will be respected. This is not a good place to test that equation.

For the guys, if she says no sex, respect that and don't push any further. Even if she gives you the green light, be prepared for her to change her mind again and if she does, you HAVE to respect it.

For the women, don't be ambiguous. Even though a guy must respect no at any time, even if you're both naked and highly aroused, it's prudent to be clear and decisive, communicate assertively, and don't lead a guy down that path if it's not where you intend to go. Yes, you absolutely have the right to change your mind, but... it's best to make a decision beforehand, communicate it and stick to it decisively. Messing with a guy's biological drives can be dangerous. It's far easier to prevent a situation from escalating than to extract yourself if it gets out of hand. This is about being prudent, smart, safe.

If a guy keeps pushing after you've said no, get out. If you often find yourself in a wrestling match you're probably being too ambiguous in how you communicate.

August 10, 2016

If a person says "but no sex" when making the date, or at the beginning of the date, and then makes out on the couch for 30 minutes during the date, I think it's fair for the other person to at least suggest sex during the making out. Among adults, of course.

August 10, 2016

Of course most of the guys don't respect our boundaries. So, this is why this kind of thing has to be expected in dating, so going to a guy's place in the evening (or anytime actually) you have to be ready for him to start making out, no matter if he promised not to...

This view has been expressed multiple times in this thread.

I wonder if it would be the same if the OP were posting about another woman (assuming they were lesbians or bi).

August 10, 2016

This view has been expressed multiple times in this thread.

I wonder if it would be the same if the OP were posting about another woman (assuming they were lesbians or bi).

There are no diff standards for women (no means no regardless of who it is) but there are diff expectations of behavior and diff levels of tolerance. Two women together don't seem to have to go thru as much song and dance (we tend to 'know' and not misportray it), and women are also less potentially threatening. If I was being unwelcomely aggressive w a woman and it came to blows, all things being equal it'd be much more of a fair fight.

August 10, 2016

There are no diff standards for women (no means no regardless of who it is) but there are diff expectations of behavior and diff levels of tolerance. Two women together don't seem to have to go thru as much song and dance (we tend to 'know' and not misportray it), and women are also less potentially threatening. If I was being unwelcomely aggressive w a woman and it came to blows, all things being equal it'd be much more of a fair fight.

Agreed.

I was thinking more of the multiple posts expressing that women should just expect boorish behaviour from men simply because they are men.

August 10, 2016

Agreed.

I was thinking more of the multiple posts expressing that women should just expect boorish behaviour from men simply because they are men.

That's a little baffling to me honestly (and tbh kinda depressing) - I'm not in that game anymore but when I was I rarely had those issues w guys. I'm sure some of that is due to me frontloading my intolerance for disrespect but I still don't think most men I ever got with were really inclined to that. I moreso had to teach lessons on the risks of trying to be Mr. Big Stuff w me , not being a borderline sexual predator.

August 10, 2016

We can see that the views on this topic are very diverse. This is why you have to know the guy before going to his place, otherwise you open yourself up to things going either way. If you're serious about letting a relationship develop in time just don't skip to a place reserved for people you know and trust. Is just safer , regardless of what you think it "should" happen .

August 10, 2016

We can see that the views on this topic are very diverse. This is why you have to know the guy before going to his place, otherwise you open yourself up to things going either way. If you're serious about letting a relationship develop in time just don't skip to a place reserved for people you know and trust. Is just safer , regardless of what you think it "should" happen .

It isn't, though. We're at risk from people we know, rather than strangers, on the whole. That's why, when teaching or advocating the importance of consent, it applies in marriages and long-term relationships, as much as it applies to strangers.

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