What are your views on this?

[phineas]

The only women who didn't suggest dinner at my place first were the one's that were just wasting my time and looking to lead me on.

 

That's my experience when it comes to dating & they wanted to come over within the first or second date.

 

Granted some I actually knew before hand but we never formally dated or hung out alone before.

[Shining One]

I would be very surprised if a man didn't meet one single woman who appreciated that.

Several of the women I never made moves on said they appreciated that I didn't make moves on them when they said they weren't ready. Of course, none of those relationships ever became sexual.

[phineas]

Several of the women I never made moves on said they appreciated that I didn't make moves on them when they said they weren't ready. Of course, none of those relationships ever became sexual.

 

Several women I never made the move on while on my couch felt rejected and never talked to me again.

[xxoo]

 

Anyway, you go there and he attempts to make out and more. You stop him and go back to talking and hanging out. He tries making out and taking it further the second time; as in taking your top off. You stop him and at this point just go home. He continues to text and so on as if everything is fine.

 

This guy is clearly not respecting your boundaries right?

 

He's not respecting your boundaries. He's gross.

 

I'm not clear if you made out with him or not?

[Eternal Sunshine]

In my personal experience they'll try even during the day. First man I've ever dated after my divorce tried it. Back then I was naive but I quickly learned not to be alone with a man in closed quarters unless I wouldn't mind having sex.

 

I'm surprised OP that with your experience you're asking this question. This is the question a rookie in dating would ask.

I feel you're not asking a question but rather ranting about men and how this isn't right and we should be able to go to a guy's place and when we stated there will be no sex they respected that . There are men who would but they're the minority. I agree it's wrong but it is what it is and I don't understand fighting reality. Just do what you know you have to do.

 

I used to live by this rule. I have only made an exception recently when some male friend convinced me that I am being uptight and that going to a guy's place doesn't always mean sex.

 

Looks like I should have stuck to my intuition

[jen1447]

To be clear, my question wasn't related to ES' situation. I was just curious as to what your experience with direct communication has been. I imagine you have a larger sample size of women than I do.

 

Ah ok. Well the comparison doesn't really work bc diff dynamics. To be blunt, I'm pretty sure I have a lot more luck being forward than most guys.

 

I used to live by this rule. I have only made an exception recently when some male friend convinced me that I am being uptight and that going to a guy's place doesn't always mean sex.

 

Looks like I should have stuck to my intuition

 

I don't think you're on the wrong track ....but the respect is related to what you demand, not what they're willing to give off their own bat. In that sense you're earning it by standing up for yourself.

[MissBee]

Say you went out with a guy a couple of times.

 

He invites you to a dinner at his place. You clearly tell him that you are happy to come but are not ready for anything physical at this point and that you want to get to know him better first. He says that's perfectly OK and he is happy for me to come and just eat and hang out.

 

BTW I can't tell you how sick I am of sexual aggressiveness of men today :sick:

 

Anyway, you go there and he attempts to make out and more. You stop him and go back to talking and hanging out. He tries making out and taking it further the second time; as in taking your top off. You stop him and at this point just go home. He continues to text and so on as if everything is fine.

 

This guy is clearly not respecting your boundaries right? Or is this kind of thing just to be expected in dating?

 

Why can't I go to a guy's place without it turning into a wrestling match?

 

If I am interested in having sex with you, you will know.

 

If there is any doubt it's a NO

 

Of course he's not respecting your boundaries and why would this be acceptable in dating?

 

Someone who doesn't respect you or your boundaries is never acceptable and it's not a dating norm or something you have to deal with, as there are many decent folks who know how to respect boundaries.

 

Personally, I don't see the point of being clearly uncomfortable with things then trying to talk yourself out of your discomfort by asking other people if it's normal....lots of strange and downright effed up things are some people's normal, but why would you live YOUR life by their normal? Dating is about you and finding what works for YOU...not what works for most people or random people...you. Don't let anyone tell you that disrespect, lack of boundaries and so on are the new normal...it's not...and if you believe it is then of course it will become your normal and who you keep attracting. But once you date with your own boundaries in place, trust me, it's like you start repelling those who don't care about them and find that you meet more people who are on the same page and that's the point.

Edited August 9, 2016 by MissBee

[Eternal Sunshine]

Everything in life is a risk, but we can't just make a full equivalence of all risks without context. When you start driving, you do it gradually until you build up confidence. You don't eliminate the risk but you lessen your chances the better you drive. Likewise, you don't have to be at some guy's house for the third date. You can get to know the guy, maybe see his Facebook, maybe meet one of his friends before being alone with him, feel like you get to know him better by his actions. You don't eliminate it, but you lessen your chance at being a victim if you let the guy prove himself a bit.

 

While this is a great advice, it's been YEARS since I met a guy that didn't push me into being heavily physical within first few dates. Maybe I am too old now for guys to consider me worthy much more than some quick sex.

 

I wish I had those options available to me.

[Kamille]

While this is a great advice, it's been YEARS since I met a guy that didn't push me into being heavily physical within first few dates. Maybe I am too old now for guys to consider me worthy much more than some quick sex.

 

I wish I had those options available to me.

 

What a jaded view of men you have. We're the same age and I run into men who treat all women with respect, not just younger women or women they deem relationship worthy.

 

I hope this is just you feeling down about another one biting the dust and not how you actually view men all the time.

[JoeSmith357-1]

That's not always the case. If anything, it's an opportunity to let her know that you are trustworthy and respect her boundaries.

 

I disagree. You invite a woman/girl over to your house and DON'T make a move, she thinks you are gay.

 

I cannot fault a guy for trying to make out with her and seeing where it goes. Not going to do it. Maybe it's a male / female perspective difference here.

 

I will say that, showing how he can respect her boundaries would have been shutting it down after she rebuked his efforts the first time...

 

Several women I never made the move on while on my couch felt rejected and never talked to me again.

 

Yep, sometimes you can't win. They think you aren't very interested, or worst, gay

Edited August 9, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Merge

[MGX]

The only women who didn't suggest dinner at my place first were the one's that were just wasting my time and looking to lead me on.

 

That's my experience when it comes to dating & they wanted to come over within the first or second date.

 

Granted some I actually knew before hand but we never formally dated or hung out alone before.

 

Several of the women I never made moves on said they appreciated that I didn't make moves on them when they said they weren't ready. Of course, none of those relationships ever became sexual.

 

Several women I never made the move on while on my couch felt rejected and never talked to me again.

 

I've always let the woman initiate any romantic or sexual advances. I was very patient. If she was ready to take that next step with me, then it was worth the wait.

 

One time, I was straight platonic with a woman that I was taking to the movies as a chat room friend. A buddy. No sexual intentions whatsoever. We never made it to the movies, because she had a panic attack in the car. I helped her to get through it and afterward, she reached over and kissed me on the lips! I was totally not expecting THAT -- not that I minded.

[MrDuck]

Straight off the bat, sure, if a girl wants to come over to your place then normally thats a sign shes ready to have sex.

For the record i've had plenty of girls give me the "just a drink.. not sex.. etc etc" before hand and then once they arrive be all over me. I think sometimes they just dont want to appear too keen.

 

So I can see why he might think you were game.

 

But no's no at the end of the day. I dont get whats so challenging about that. You have a choice too, you can leave her and go hook up with someone who is looking for that, or you can stick around and wait for her to be ready. You cant make someone who doesnt want sex sleep with you, like its pretty simple to understand.

 

Me and my gf didn't sleep together for like 5/6 months, she didn't feel ready, which was okay but there comes a point where you still want to chill together at home and not go out all of the time which we did. She would come over mine, she would even stay over mine - I have self control, I can share a bed with a girl and have a cuddle & that and not have to have sex. So I can definitly have her over for dinner and watch a movie without pushing her into sex if thats not what she wants.

I hope my girlfriend would tell you that she always felt totally comfortable coming over and I never made hrer feel she had to do anything she wasnt ready for!

You cant say that about this fella!

[Grisho]

I disagree. You invite a woman/girl over to your house and DON'T make a move, she thinks you are gay.

 

I cannot fault a guy for trying to make out with her and seeing where it goes. Not going to do it. Maybe it's a male / female perspective difference here.

 

I will say that, showing how he can respect her boundaries would have been shutting it down after she rebuked his efforts the first time...

 

Yep, sometimes you can't win. They think you aren't very interested, or worst, gay

 

I find your post needlessly antagonistic and offensive to women broadly.

 

-If a meeting at someone's home has been planned, with no discussion about boundaries, then a man may try to initiate physical contact. If he's rebuked, he should stop pushing for physical contact. If he doesn't stop, he's violating the woman, because she is clearly not consenting.

 

-If a meeting at someone's home has been planned, with discussion about boundaries, then a man should never try to initiate physical contact. If he tries, he's violating the woman, because she is clearly not consenting.

 

In the situation under discussion, any court in the land would recognise that the woman clearly communicated that no consent was given for anything physical. She couldn't have communicated that clearer than she did. The man is absolutely and unequivocally wrong.

 

I find it so frustrating to see discussion about whether being in someone's home makes a difference. Clearly, it's of no relevance, where someone is clearly not consenting to physical contact. That should be abundantly clear to everyone on this thread. It makes no difference if you are a guest in a home or living with your spouse in the home. If you don't consent to physical activity, and the other person persists (whether an acquaintance, friend, lover, husband etc etc), they are violating you. If you are sexually violated, your duties are to get yourself to a safer place as soon as possible, and contact the police.

[Toodaloo]

-If a meeting at someone's home has been planned, with no discussion about boundaries, then a man may try to initiate physical contact. If he's rebuked, he should stop pushing for physical contact. If he doesn't stop, he's violating the woman, because she is clearly not consenting.

 

-If a meeting at someone's home has been planned, with discussion about boundaries, then a man should never try to initiate physical contact. If he tries, he's violating the woman, because she is clearly not consenting.

 

But my point is why bother taking the risk when you hardly know the bloke?

 

I would consider myself very dumb to go to a mans house for a "romantic" evening and to sit discussing the weather...

 

You want to keep your clothes on then keep it public. Do act any other way is just placing yourself in danger then blaming everyone else for it...

[jen1447]

I get the impression from ES that while she was offended by this guy's advances, she didn't really see this as an attack so to speak, and in that sense I'd say she wasn't really obliged to run screaming from the place. So while I do take sexual misconduct very seriously, I think we're all at liberty to have our own levels of tolerance for aggressiveness.

 

This is germane to the argument that there was some sort of objective danger that ES didn't respond to appropriately (and the by-extension implication that she 'asked for it' or w/e). There have been plenty of times in my life where a guy's gotten too handsy for my liking and it's only resulted in me backing him down verbally or maybe him getting a punch in the lower abs, not me running to the police. To each their own - both in terms of what you'll put up with (within reasonable limits - no one should "put up with" violent rape etc.) and what to do about it.

[Shining One]

For every woman that means exactly what she says, there is another woman who doesn't mean what she says. How are we to tell which is which? (To be clear again, I'm not applying it to the OP's situation. She should not have had to physically stop him twice). Here are some personal examples:

• Woman says she doesn't have sex early before we go out. She invites me in and we have sex after the first date.
  
• Woman says "we need to stop having sex" as she straddles me and starts undressing herself.
  
• Woman says she doesn't have sex within the first two months. I respect this and don't make a move at all during that time frame. 1.5 months in, she starts dating someone else and has sex with him on the second date.
  
• Woman says she doesn't have sex before the fourth date. She invites me over on the third date and I don't make a move. She ends things before the fourth date and I later heard from a mutual friend that she thought I wasn't interested because I didn't try anything physical.
  

I could keep listing examples, but you get the idea.

[Grisho]

For every woman that means exactly what she says, there is another woman who doesn't mean what she says. How are we to tell which is which? (To be clear again, I'm not applying it to the OP's situation. She should not have had to physically stop him twice). Here are some personal examples:

• Woman says she doesn't have sex early before we go out. She invites me in and we have sex after the first date.
  
• Woman says "we need to stop having sex" as she straddles me and starts undressing herself.
  
• Woman says she doesn't have sex within the first two months. I respect this and don't make a move at all during that time frame. 1.5 months in, she starts dating someone else and has sex with him on the second date.
  
• Woman says she doesn't have sex before the fourth date. She invites me over on the third date and I don't make a move. She ends things before the fourth date and I later heard from a mutual friend that she thought I wasn't interested because I didn't try anything physical.
  

I could keep listing examples, but you get the idea.

 

It's really simple - if someone is not consenting, you don't touch them physically. It makes no difference what they do ordinarily on Tuesdays, what they do when they're with other men, what they do because it's raining outside, you simply do not touch a non-consenting party. If consent was given, and is suddenly removed, you stop touching a non-consenting party. Clear?

[Grisho]

But my point is why bother taking the risk when you hardly know the bloke?

 

I would consider myself very dumb to go to a mans house for a "romantic" evening and to sit discussing the weather...

 

You want to keep your clothes on then keep it public. Do act any other way is just placing yourself in danger then blaming everyone else for it...

 

Actually, it's more risky with people we know, so that argument you are trying to make is redundant. Women are sexually violated every hour of every day in public. Don't kid yourself that avoiding someone's home makes you safe. A dangerous sexual preditor will be dangerous in the home and street. They'll be a danger when getting to know them, and they'll remain a danger if you marry them.

 

Stop victim blaming. The woman did nothing wrong here.

[jen1447]

For every woman that means exactly what she says, there is another woman who doesn't mean what she says. How are we to tell which is which?

 

This is just one of those "life isn't fair" things. And women have their own version of that to deal with. Bscly you don't worry about decoding clues, you just always stick w what ppl say. If that ends up benefiting some and not others, well ....life isn't fair.

 

Woman says she doesn't have sex early before we go out. She invites me in and we have sex after the first date.

 

Lucky you.

 

Woman says "we need to stop having sex" as she straddles me and starts undressing herself.

 

Better scramble out from under then - being in a "no" situ that's masquerading as a "yes" is no place to be, so get out.

 

Woman says she doesn't have sex within the first two months. I respect this and don't make a move at all during that time frame. 1.5 months in, she starts dating someone else and has sex with him on the second date.

 

You played it right by respecting her. Tough break but that's how it goes.

 

Woman says she doesn't have sex before the fourth date. She invites me over on the third date and I don't make a move. She ends things before the fourth date and I later heard from a mutual friend that she thought I wasn't interested because I didn't try anything physical.

 

That's on her if she's butthurt - she should have made herself clearer. Meanwhile you did the right thing.

[LookAtThisPOst]

From a guy's perspective, if you accept the invitation over to my place, you are at least "leaving the door open" to sex. Despite what you may or may not have said ahead of time.

 

I know...but I had a situation where a woman took it a step further and wanted to watch TV in her bedroom when I thought we were going to watch it on her living room couch. Apparently she had a dog that fell off the sofa and hurt its back...so the bed with the dog would suffice? It's even higher off the floor.

 

I thought she was opening an invitation to fool around a bit a couple hours after watching TV. This was late at night. When I went to touch her...she grabbed my hand and shoved it away.

 

I recall another woman, a friend of hers actually...that POSTED on Facebook the sexual aggression she got from a guy she invited him into the bedroom with to watch TV...she said, "I was out on a date with this guy, and he said he cannot lie in bed next to a woman without wanting to have sex with her!"

 

And I commented, "Can't blame him for trying, you let him in your bed...that's a green light! lol"

 

Good thing she's a friend of mine, or otherwise I'd probably been blocked.

[phineas]

I've always let the woman initiate any romantic or sexual advances. I was very patient. If she was ready to take that next step with me, then it was worth the wait.

 

One time, I was straight platonic with a woman that I was taking to the movies as a chat room friend. A buddy. No sexual intentions whatsoever. We never made it to the movies, because she had a panic attack in the car. I helped her to get through it and afterward, she reached over and kissed me on the lips! I was totally not expecting THAT -- not that I minded.

 

This is the thing, when I had women over THEY made the move.

I actually had one woman ask if she could take her bra off because it was bugging her due to the heat then "accidentally" dropped her halter top when doing it on my back deck.

 

Why did she do that?

Because she said when she came over "no sex" so I just chatted and grilled dinner and had a good time and I didn't care if we had sex or not because I was already home and having a good time.

 

Last woman I slept with asked me where my car was while i thought I was walking her to hers then said she wanted to goto mine. Yeah. mid 40's in the back of a late 90's full size. just like college.

[Els]

For every woman that means exactly what she says, there is another woman who doesn't mean what she says. How are we to tell which is which?

 

The question is why do you WANT women who don't mean what they say? If this bothers you (and it absolutely should bother you IMO), then when they ditch you, you'll find that you dodged a bullet. I can't imagine that a relationship with someone who constantly says one thing but means another and expects you to read their mind and gets huffy otherwise, would be fun or healthy in any way. You are now free to date the other type of women!

 

I mean, we could say the same thing with guys - there are lots of guys who are deceptive, or immature, or wishy-washy etc. But if a woman tailors her approach to THOSE guys, then she'll likely end up in a R with the wrong guy, and with no one to blame but herself. The better approach is to filter them out instead.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Elswyth

[MissBee]

For every woman that means exactly what she says, there is another woman who doesn't mean what she says. How are we to tell which is which? (To be clear again, I'm not applying it to the OP's situation. She should not have had to physically stop him twice). Here are some personal examples:

• Woman says she doesn't have sex early before we go out. She invites me in and we have sex after the first date.
  
• Woman says "we need to stop having sex" as she straddles me and starts undressing herself.
  
• Woman says she doesn't have sex within the first two months. I respect this and don't make a move at all during that time frame. 1.5 months in, she starts dating someone else and has sex with him on the second date.
  
• Woman says she doesn't have sex before the fourth date. She invites me over on the third date and I don't make a move. She ends things before the fourth date and I later heard from a mutual friend that she thought I wasn't interested because I didn't try anything physical.
  

I could keep listing examples, but you get the idea.

 

You don't need to tell which is which, you can make your own boundary for yourself, for example: YOU can decide for yourself that anything other than a clear yes is a no and proceed accordingly. Women who say one thing but mean another will then fall out of line or realize you take them at their word so will then be clear instead of unclear.

 

It's not terribly difficult. That's how I operate. Anything other than a clear yes, especially when it comes to other people's personal space, their body and their property is a no for me and I don't proceed. That way there is no "mixed signals." People can mix signals if they want to, but I am not obligated to go along with it or try to decode it. For a simple life my policy is that yes is yes and anything other than yes is no, and it hasn't steered me wrong, and I also have male friends who to avoid any potential drama also live by this policy and again...women who are unclear then fall out of line with them which is fine for them and women who mean what they say and are clear fall in line.

Edited August 10, 2016 by MissBee

[AMJ]

For every woman that means exactly what she says, there is another woman who doesn't mean what she says. How are we to tell which is which? (To be clear again, I'm not applying it to the OP's situation. She should not have had to physically stop him twice). Here are some personal examples:

 

Can't we chalk most of those examples up to incompatibility or even immaturity?

Sometimes a woman is stalling to sleep with you because she's not sure if she wants to- not because she has arbitrary rules about date #4. Maybe creating arbitrary rules seems more polite than "Well I'm not 100% sure I actually want to have sex with you at all. Still working that out." It's a little similar to all the lines men give women when they aren't feeling chemistry and no longer want to date them. The "He's just not that into you" stuff.

Wouldn't you agree that your best sexual encounters have never been this difficult or stressful, they just happen naturally, because the two of you are highly compatible?

[jen1447]

fwiw, I don't think Shining One's bemoaning the fact that not all women act the same, but that he believes it's hard to tell which is which sometimes. That makes it more complicated than just avoiding the bad ones.