And so the cycle continues

[Messy Lady]

Sorry - there's been a misunderstanding there. All I meant was the suggestion that this could go on for decades is just not an option. It also does not mean that I see this continuing for two years even.

 

Would I be ok if he was consistent on wanting to continue to see me? Yes I want consistency because at least then I know where I stand but again that does not mean I would want it to continue. The more I post about some of the things happening the more I wonder why I would.

 

The comment he made about being able to have me was not made in the car. It was before that. Yes it's bad that he said it but it would have been worse if said in the car when telling me we had to end.

 

I think he sees as affair as something involving real "I love you's". We have both said it is just about sex (though it has become more than that for me). Of course it's an affair but it is just a physical one.

 

The problem is now that if I post about some of the nice things he says or does, people will just say I am clutching at straws or he's playing me. Look I know he doesn't love me but I know he likes me a lot and I know that he does care about me. There have been not just words but actions to support that just this past week. He actually also does a lot which helps build my self-esteem in a variety of ways.

[heartwhole]

This is not a healthy way to build self-esteem.

[redbaron007]

MessyLady,

 

You are an intelligent woman who is professionally accomplished and have stated yourself that you are in a senior executive position, so you will understand the terminology I use here.

 

Your A has a risk/reward profile that suggests you will continue this affair for the foreseeable future.

 

Let's assess the "rewards" you derive from your A:

- Sex: Your intimacy problem with your BS means you are getting your sexual needs satisfied by OM.

 

- Excitement, never knowing whether he will push or pull next. After your next meeting, will he grab you for a kiss in his office when your colleagues are outside? What can beat this excitement?

 

- Mutually beneficial relationship: both of you apparently have no interest in leaving your spouses, so what is the problem?

 

Let's look at the "risks" that your A faces:

- Risk of unpredictable long-term impact: You stated that OM plans to work at the same firm only for a couple of years more, so risk score: zero-to-low risk

 

- Risk of exposure (Dday by H): Your husband finds out you're having an affair and your M blows up. Doesn't look likely. You seem quite confident you can keep your A and M separate, minor annoyances with OM aside. Risk score: Zero-to-low risk.

 

- Risk of exposure (Dday by OM's wife): OM's wife finds out and blows your cover by informing your H, causing your M to blow up. From your posts, does not seem likely. Risk score: Zero-to-low risk.

 

- Risk of exposure (sexual harassment issues): AP is the boss and you are the subordinate employee, so there is zero risk from your side.

 

So rewards right now seem to outweigh the risks. But what if benefits are lowered? Let's assess this:

- Sex: Let's say your husband suddenly realizes that he needs to urgently fix his intimacy issues and acts on them...whether it is testosterone replacement, Viagra, sex therapy, whatever, he just does whatever it takes and your sex life with your husband is on fire. Who needs OM anymore? This unfortunately doesn't look likely because your husband most likely had no idea that you would resort to an affair (as far as we readers know)...if you had spelt it out before you jumped in the A, there is a possibility he could have acted with a bit more urgency.

 

- Excitement: could get tiring, stressful, lowering the benefits from sex and/or increasing the risk of exposure due to your perceptible change in behavior/demeanor. Doesn't look very likely at this point.

 

- Mutually beneficial relationship: If AP or you suddenly realize you want more, then this benefit goes away, but doesn't look like this is the case.

 

So the data suggests that your A is going to be a relatively smooth flight with a little turbulence....barring a "black swan event"...you know what those are, if you don't, you need to google it...you gotta watch out for those black swans.

[Messy Lady]

This is not a healthy way to build self-esteem.

 

The relationship between him and I isn't just based around the affair. We have a working relationship and a friendship and in those he has helped my self-esteem.

[Messy Lady]

Red Baron

 

Your post resonates with me. I can see the logic and how it applies to what has been happening. But even though you make it sound so simple, it is still drama and it is still wrong.

 

Here I am today wondering how he will be with me at work today and that is taking me away from where my thoughts should be, with my husband. Part of me actually hopes that the MM will be strong and maintain barriers because I know I'm not ready to do that on my own.

[Lobe]

I've not got time to do a full reply but I want to clarify something. This thing where he asks me if I love him? It is a joke thing we have between us. It does not mean that I actually do love him and we both know that. I also know that he doesn't love me.

 

Is it a joke because you are playing it down or writing it off? It sounds likes neat way of saying I love you that a spouse could be conveniently convinced of as a joke if d-day came...

 

Postulating, based on experience...

[Messy Lady]

Is it a joke because you are playing it down or writing it off? It sounds likes neat way of saying I love you that a spouse could be conveniently convinced of as a joke if d-day came...

 

Postulating, based on experience...

 

 

It is a joke thing that he started but I can see there has been some drift in it for me plus it is one sided with him asking me often but he has only said it once or twice. Hence him asking me on Friday confused me - if we are over and supposedly professional only then why ask. Unless it is to make sure I am still there for him if he wants me.m:(

[redbaron007]

Red Baron

 

Your post resonates with me. I can see the logic and how it applies to what has been happening. But even though you make it sound so simple, it is still drama and it is still wrong.

 

Since my post resonates with you, I will continue with my analogy: If you exclude the drama (it's easy since I'm not one of the parties), it really is simple: an affair, like any relationship, is an investment. You invest your mental energy and time in it, and expect a certain return on your investment (the rewards I mentioned in my prior post). Like any other investment, there are risks (the risks I mentioned in my prior post). As long as the rewards outweigh the risks, you will continue to invest. It's that simple really! Now depending on both parties in the A and external factors (black swan events included), the "level" of investment may change over time: you may decide to invest more in the A, maintain the same level of investment in the A, or liquidate your investment in the A (end it). As of today, I can tell you have decided to hold, i.e. maintain your time and energy invested. Tomorrow, it could be different. You, as the investor, will decide that.

 

Here I am today wondering how he will be with me at work today and that is taking me away from where my thoughts should be, with my husband. Part of me actually hopes that the MM will be strong and maintain barriers because I know I'm not ready to do that on my own.

 

 

Ah, now we're talking about the "opportunity cost" - what if you could invest the same time and mental energy in your husband and M, would you have a better return on your investment? Right now, your actions show that your time and energy investment in your AP (and A) gets you more bang-for-the-buck (pun unintended) than on your husband (and M). If there comes a point when you think this is not true, you will end the A yourself. Right now, obviously you don't think ending the A is a smart move on your part.

 

Every single story here (or in the Infidelity section) can be modeled as an investment (of mental energy and time) by the WH/WW...

[Jersey born raised]

Red baron makes a good point. Messy, although you don't realize it, but your husband is feeling the lack of attention and affection. He most likely thinks it is the ebb and follow of a long term marriage. But that affection and attention is not what makes life worth living, it is life and by giving it to another man you deny it to your husband.

 

This aspect is rarely discussed, but it exists and I suspect that that couples that cannot reconcile this is a huge part. The time spent in isolation changes a person.

 

Have you attempted to formulate a plan on what to do if discovered? This adultery will run it's course, you are to committed. You are his favorite play toy and until he finds another he will not let you go. Even than there will be booty calls. He likes the thrill and will keep pushing boundaries until you get a naughty but innocent email on the week-end that your husband or a child will see. So be prepared.

[rumblefish12]

JBR: I agree completely that there is an effect on the BS, even if he/she never became aware. As hard as I tried to compartmentalize it, I could feel that my affection directed toward AP detracted from my attention to my BS. There's no doubt. It is a zero sum matter. i was able to delude myself about all kinds of things, including at one point the old "maybe it is actually improving my marriage." We can convince ourselves of so much. Perspective is a gift and sometimes it only comes with devastation to those you love.

[heartwhole]

The relationship between him and I isn't just based around the affair. We have a working relationship and a friendship and in those he has helped my self-esteem.

 

Self-esteem comes from within. It's a recognition of your worth and qualities that isn't based on the attention or praise of others. Healthy self-esteem is why, when I found out my husband was having an affair, my sense of self was not impacted negatively.

 

A man who makes self-destructive, selfish choices liking you or your work should not be the basis of your self-esteem. Even a healthy man liking you or your work should not be the basis of your self-esteem, though of course when you are a good person who makes good choices and does good work, you tend to receive positive attention from others, and there's nothing wrong with enjoying that. But if you need that attention to feel good about yourself, then you're missing the point.

 

Speaking of self-esteem, imagine the hit to your self-esteem after a DD when everyone you love and care about knows what you have done in the dark. How will you feel good about yourself then?

[Messy Lady]

Well he's still keeping things to colleagues only. It looks like he means it this time too. I know it's the right thing to do but it does hurt especially as it seems to come so easily for him.

 

I don't think he will be coming back for more as you put it Jersey.

 

Heartwhole - I don't need that attention from him at all but he has given me that attention.

[Jersey born raised]

Sorry messy but I think he will. Why ? Because he loves how you make him feel, and you feel the same. At some point he will need a fix and you will be in the next office.

[HeCantBreakMe]

Well he's still keeping things to colleagues only. It looks like he means it this time too. I know it's the right thing to do but it does hurt especially as it seems to come so easily for him.

 

I don't think he will be coming back for more as you put it Jersey.

 

Heartwhole - I don't need that attention from him at all but he has given me that attention.

 

I am sorry Messylady- I know it hurts but it is for the best you are correct. It may or may not come easy to him but if it does use some of that anger to drive you further away from him.

 

Jersey is right I think he will come calling. It may not be today or tomorrow or 30 days from now but soon enough when he gets bored at home he will come seeking you. If you think about it, and he does do this, I hope you see him as very very weak and selfish. I really hope he can do the right thing though but in most cases - they don't.

[Messy Lady]

Sorry messy but I think he will. Why ? Because he loves how you make him feel, and you feel the same. At some point he will need a fix and you will be in the next office.

 

Well if loves how I made him feel, he's not missing that enough yet. Today was the first time we talked about "us" since last week. He's still very much of the opinion that it's over, too dangerous, etc. Though none of his reasons are about either of us being married.

 

I don't know what to think at the moment. I know I am still "at risk" in that I want him still. I even told him that just now. God, I must have sounded so desperate. Will he come back for more? I don't think so. Though he still makes teasing references to us. This is such a game for him yet not so much for me.

 

Eugh! He came in the room whilst I was typing this.

[DKT3]

I have never felt this bad for someone I've never met as I do for your husband. Not a shred of respect or compassion that I can detect from reading all your post.

 

I only see one decent thing for you to do, that is let your husband free, so maybe he can find what you've found with this other guy. It's clear as day to me that you have no interest in breaking free of this guy or heading back into your marriage, so why hold your husband hostage?

[immokk]

Just reading through this...

 

There's something that really bothers me. I don't usually comment... I usually scroll past because I judge no-one. Those in glass houses etc.

 

But MessLady, you say the 'Do you love me?' etc thing is a joke. I'm a bit nuts, It sounds daft, given everything else, but I don't believe in joking about love.

 

It's the deepest of human emotions and though it may not mean much t o some it means a lot to me. I look back at my thirty something years and I've been married, had a couple of other relationships and the A I recently ended with an MM (single OW, here) and I know I've only ever been in love once.

 

I have never said it and not meant it (at least at the time) and I've never requested someone give it, certainly not if they don't mean it.

 

Also, I am not an advocate of the tough love approach some take on here but... I am inclined to agree with the poster above. Perhaps you should separate from your husband and take some time to see and feel away from both MM and H.

 

I think everyone is getting damaged here, as in all affairs, but this seems particularly damaging.

 

Good luck with whatever you do.

[elaine567]

This is such a game for him yet not so much for me.

 

As it has been from the outset.

 

Have you forgotten what you said way back in April?

 

"I feel hurt. I feel stupid. I feel used."

 

What has actually changed?

[Messy Lady]

As it has been from the outset.

 

Have you forgotten what you said way back in April?

 

"I feel hurt. I feel stupid. I feel used."

 

What has actually changed?

 

You're right Elaine and it is pathetic. I have allowed this to continue. I have been so incredibly selfish and have just focused on me and what I want. I know I need to change that and I have been trying. It's been a tough week for a number of reasons (not just due to MM).

[heartwhole]

"The cycle continues . . . " "I have allowed this to continue . . . " It's not a cycle with a life of its own, or something that you have allowed to happen passively. You are actively participating in an affair. It's not MM's fault, or your self-esteem's fault, or your tough week's fault.

[anika99]

You're right Elaine and it is pathetic. I have allowed this to continue. I have been so incredibly selfish and have just focused on me and what I want. I know I need to change that and I have been trying. It's been a tough week for a number of reasons (not just due to MM).

 

How are you trying? You just threw yourself at the MM again, telling him you still want him. It sounds like you are trying to have an affair, not like you are trying to stop being selfish. You are risking so much and playing with people's lives for so little.

 

I can't imagine how humilating and demeaning yourself helps your self esteem. When the MM gives you attention I'm sure it gives your ego a boost but that's got nothing to do with self esteem. People with high self esteem are not desperate to have their ego stroked and do not lower themselves to chase a married man.

[Satu]

Cheating often progresses to a sadomasochistic dynamic.

 

"It must be love, because it hurts so much."

[Satu]

You're right Elaine and it is pathetic. I have allowed this to continue. I have been so incredibly selfish and have just focused on me and what I want. I know I need to change that and I have been trying. It's been a tough week for a number of reasons (not just due to MM).

 

No. You haven't "allowed this to continue."

 

You've actively perpetuated it.

[Messy Lady]

No. You haven't "allowed this to continue."

 

You've actively perpetuated it.

 

That is actually what I meant. Poor choice of words I know.

[DKT3]

What have you actually done to stop the cycle and engage in your marriage? Seems that 110% of your focus is this other guy. You have to start to change something to get a different result.