How Can a Man Be Coy?

[Wave Rider]

So I've decided to try Imago therapy for singles, because nothing else has worked, not even being really upfront and direct about what I want while being bold and authentic. I guess I need to address my self-completion issues. In terms of attachment theory, I have anxious attachment, and so I end up in relationships with avoidant women. If I am direct with these women in asking for what I want, it sets off their alarms and makes them want to withdraw because they feel suffocated by my "neediness." So my therapist suggested that before he and I meet next time, I find some ways that I can be more coy with women so I don't set off their alarms that make them wan to run away.

 

For women, being coy seems pretty easy: a subtle smile, the bat of an eye, some subtly suggestive body language, or a flick of the hair. But how do I be coy as a man? Do I subtly flex my muscles or sit really big on the couch to show that I can protect my territory? Do I suggest stuff that I like to do and hope she jumps in and says she likes that too? Do I wait for her to make a move and not reveal too much about myself and my feelings?

 

And a woman can give a "kiss me" look, but as a man, I can't really do that. She needs to feel like she initiated what we're doing rather than me pushing her into it. If at any moment she feels that I'm being pushy or invasive, she'll withdraw. What can I do to be more coy?

[xxoo]

Listen more than you talk. Turn the topic of conversation onto her.

 

Sit back on the couch. Leaning in implies interest. You do want to seem interested, but if the problem has been suffocation---lean out. Relax. Allow some space between you.

 

Flirt, but leave her wanting more. Allow her to lean in; inspire her to give you that "kiss me" look. Kiss her when she's just short of begging for it

[RedPurpleOrange]

I think you're trying too hard with all these mental illness archetypes. Too much dross will ruin a truth.

 

 

But, yes, men can be coy. It's how I seem to get women without realising. They think I'm 'coy'. I think I must be 'coy'.

 

 

Just...don't do things and - when you do them - do them shockingly...if that makes sense?????

[xxoo]

 

Just...don't do things and - when you do them - do them shockingly...if that makes sense?????

 

I like that!

 

General rule in life: Less is more.

 

Have you ever heard the advice that women get about dressing up? Get dressed, put on your accessories, and then remove one piece of jewelry before leaving.

 

Very often, before hitting "submit reply", I delete a few lines of my post.

 

I think before I talk to my child about a worry, and say less than all the frantic thoughts in my head.

 

Think, then act. Do a less than your first instinct. Basically, use good judgment.

[Jabron1]

Two words: push, pull.

[RedPurpleOrange]

^I think précis is the best form of communication.

 

 

Bang on.

[Jabron1]

So I've decided to try Imago therapy for singles, because nothing else has worked, not even being really upfront and direct about what I want while being bold and authentic. I guess I need to address my self-completion issues. In terms of attachment theory, I have anxious attachment, and so I end up in relationships with avoidant women. If I am direct with these women in asking for what I want, it sets off their alarms and makes them want to withdraw because they feel suffocated by my "neediness." So my therapist suggested that before he and I meet next time, I find some ways that I can be more coy with women so I don't set off their alarms that make them wan to run away.

 

For women, being coy seems pretty easy: a subtle smile, the bat of an eye, some subtly suggestive body language, or a flick of the hair. But how do I be coy as a man? Do I subtly flex my muscles or sit really big on the couch to show that I can protect my territory? Do I suggest stuff that I like to do and hope she jumps in and says she likes that too? Do I wait for her to make a move and not reveal too much about myself and my feelings?

 

And a woman can give a "kiss me" look, but as a man, I can't really do that. She needs to feel like she initiated what we're doing rather than me pushing her into it. If at any moment she feels that I'm being pushy or invasive, she'll withdraw. What can I do to be more coy?

 

Mate, you sound like a very intelligent guy. You seem to have read a lot of feminine books on relationships.

 

Have you ever read a masculine book on game?

[Wave Rider]

Two words: push, pull.

 

I don't really know what that means ("I know you don't, Wave Rider. I know you don't.") Maybe you can explain it to me.

 

Mate, you sound like a very intelligent guy. You seem to have read a lot of feminine books on relationships.

 

Have you ever read a masculine book on game?

 

And you don't even know how much men's dating advice I've read, with nothing to show for it.

 

I want to be careful not to get too far into pickup artist (PUA) advice. I spent a couple years with PUA advice and it got me nowhere. Maybe I got a few make-outs from it, but my relationships certainly weren't better. Pickup artists may get laid a lot, but they usually have lousy relationships.

 

I want to be more coy, but I don't want to get too far into playing games or into strategies for emotional manipulation. I just want to do things in a way that won't set off her alarms when things start to get close.

 

PUA is not about having a relationship with a woman. It's about strategies for emotionally manipulating her into having casual sex with you. A relationship is exactly what the PUA doesn't want. I know, because I've read the PUA books.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Wave Rider

[Jabron1]

I don't really know what that means ("I know you don't, Wave Rider. I know you don't.") Maybe you can explain it to me.

 

No offence, but you should know this if you really read up on game. It's one of the most fundamental concepts.

 

I want to be careful not to get too far into pickup artist (PUA) advice.

 

I can respect that.

 

I spent a couple years with PUA advice and it got me nowhere. Maybe I got a few make-outs from it, but my relationships certainly weren't better. Pickup artists may get laid a lot, but they usually have lousy relationships.

 

There's a lot of good advice for relationships among the pick up community.

 

It's only knowledge at the end of the day. You experiment, and keep what works well for you - bin what doesn't.

 

I want to be more coy, but I don't want to get too far into playing games or into strategies for emotional manipulation. I just want to do things in a way that won't set off her alarms when things start to get close.

 

Impossible. Coyness is games.

 

PUA is not about having a relationship with a woman. It's about strategies for emotionally manipulating her into having casual sex with you. A relationship is exactly what the PUA doesn't want. I know, because I've read the PUA books.

 

You're living in 1996

 

One of the most well respected PUA writers in the community has been successfully married for 15 years, goes into great detail on relationship advice and behaviourism.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Jabron1

[Wave Rider]

No offence, but you should know this if you really read up on game. It's one of the most fundamental concepts.

 

Yeah, I know. Two steps forward, one step back. Flirt with her, then don't call. Be the first to pull away from a kiss. End the date first. Tell her you're busy even when you're not. Give her a false time constraint. Tell her you have a girlfriend even when you don't. Never complement her on her looks. Be cocky & funny.

 

It never worked for me.

 

Impossible. Coyness is games.

 

Maybe. I suppose that anything other than an upfront "I like you and I'd want to date you" would be game-playing. I've tried being almost that upfront with women. At least it weeds out the ones who would never be interested.

 

I know Eben Pagan (aka David DeAngelo) recently got married. But it was quite a long path for him.

[Jabron1]

Yeah, I know. Two steps forward, one step back. Flirt with her, then don't call. Be the first to pull away from a kiss. End the date first. Tell her you're busy even when you're not. Give her a false time constraint. Tell her you have a girlfriend even when you don't. Never complement her on her looks. Be cocky & funny.

 

It never worked for me.

 

LMAO.

 

Before you even said, I was going to say that you've been reading David De'angelo!

 

Like I said, you're living in 1996.

 

Maybe. I suppose that anything other than an upfront "I like you and I'd want to date you" would be game-playing. I've tried being almost that upfront with women. At least it weeds out the ones who would never be interested.

 

I know Eben Pagan (aka David DeAngelo) recently got married. But it was quite a long path for him.

 

I'm not talking about David DeAngelo, mate . The game has long since passed that point.

 

What stage are you at? Are you struggling to attract women? Struggling to get laid? Or just struggling in long term relationships?

[Imajerk17]

You shouldn't think about being "coy", you should be thinking of not being so needy.

 

If you find yourself emotionally chasing after women, you're being needy.

 

If you find yourself doing all the work to get to know a woman while she isn't doing any to get to know you, you're being needy. (NOTE: Doing all the work (bad) is NOT to be confused w taking the lead (good and necessary!).)

 

If you are falling for someone who doesn't seem to be putting much energy to you, you are being needy.

 

xxoo said it best. Do just a little less than is your first instinct.

[Jabron1]

You shouldn't think about being "coy", you should be thinking of not being so needy.

 

If you find yourself emotionally chasing after women, you're being needy.

 

If you find yourself doing all the work to get to know a woman while she isn't doing any to get to know you, you're being needy. (NOTE: Doing all the work (bad) is NOT to be confused w taking the lead (good and necessary!).)

 

If you are falling for someone who doesn't seem to be putting much energy to you, you are being needy.

 

xxoo said it best. Do just a little less than is your first instinct.

 

And how does a man reduce his need?

[Wave Rider]

What stage are you at? Are you struggling to attract women? Struggling to get laid? Or just struggling in long term relationships?

 

I've done fairly well with meeting women, getting dates, and even finding girlfriends. It's getting them to stick around that's the problem. Most of my relationships last only a few weeks or a few months. If you're from the PUA school, I know what your answer is: she lost attraction for me because I turned into a needy wuss because I put up with her BS and manipulation and I failed her tests so she left. I don't accept that answer. I think that attachment theory and Imago therapy offers a better explanation, so I'm going with that. Which is why I asked about coyness with avoidant women.

[Wave Rider]

You shouldn't think about being "coy", you should be thinking of not being so needy.

 

If you find yourself emotionally chasing after women, you're being needy.

 

If you find yourself doing all the work to get to know a woman while she isn't doing any to get to know you, you're being needy. (NOTE: Doing all the work (bad) is NOT to be confused w taking the lead (good and necessary!).)

 

If you are falling for someone who doesn't seem to be putting much energy to you, you are being needy.

 

xxoo said it best. Do just a little less than is your first instinct.

 

You should check out my post on neediness.

[Imajerk17]

And how does a man reduce his need?

What has worked best for me: If a woman you're dating isn't treating you right, end it. Something similar goes for bad friendships or even bad jobs--although this may involve lining something else first.

 

Learning how to meet other women is important sure, but that comes after. It's far more important to realize that you're better off without the wrong woman even if it were to mean you never have sex again. Self-respect is that important. Ironically though it's the guys who have this self-respect are the ones attracting the women.

 

Thoughts and feelings often follow actions. By ACTING unreactive even when you aren't feeling so brave, you will actually become more and more unreactive and emotionally stronger, which you know is really attractive to women.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Imajerk17

[Jabron1]

I've done fairly well with meeting women, getting dates, and even finding girlfriends. It's getting them to stick around that's the problem. Most of my relationships last only a few weeks or a few months. If you're from the PUA school, I know what your answer is: she lost attraction for me because I turned into a needy wuss because I put up with her BS and manipulation and I failed her tests so she left. I don't accept that answer. I think that attachment theory and Imago therapy offers a better explanation, so I'm going with that. Which is why I asked about coyness with avoidant women.

 

No, you don't know what my answer is at all. Because, as has been established, you are well behind the curve. Do you realise that the PUA stuff was in its infancy back then? It's laughable now.

 

Look mate, I don't have this problem. If you want to stick to 'relationship theory', I won't begrudge it. I'm interested to hear your experiences, actually. This stuff interests me.

 

I don't think that living your life within a feminine frame is a smart move for a smart man, though.

 

Just trying to help

[Wave Rider]

No, you don't know what my answer is at all. Because, as has been established, you are well behind the curve. Do you realise that the PUA stuff was in its infancy back then? It's laughable now.

 

Look mate, I don't have this problem. If you want to stick to 'relationship theory', I won't begrudge it. I'm interested to hear your experiences, actually. This stuff interests me.

 

I don't think that living your life within a feminine frame is a smart move for a smart man, though.

 

Just trying to help

 

Well, it may not be your response, but it was Imajerk17's response. I know by now what the usual responses are.

 

I outlined my situation in the OP on this thread, and in this thread and this thread.

 

I do appreciate the help. About the masculine frame of mind, I'll tell you, many times when I did it, she fought me tooth and nail to keep control of the relationship. Trying to step up and be the man led to a significant power struggle, which is explained pretty well by Imago therapy. Yeah, I know, I need to dominate her. But women are endlessly clever at finding ways to undermine me. So trying to show leadership only leads to a power struggle, and I promise you she's going to win that one.

[xxoo]

And how does a man reduce his need?

 

Everyone has need. That doesn't mean we dump it uncontrollably on other people. Self control and judgment are key, and also quite attractive. The opposite is unattractive.

 

OP, you're right that a power struggle is a no-win situation. If you come to the dating situation feeling and acting genuinely strong, you'll attract women who like that and don't fight you for control. Not that you'll be "the one in control", but that there should be no fight for control between two confident and secure people.

[Jabron1]

Well, it may not be your response, but it was Imajerk17's response. I know by now what the usual responses are.

 

I outlined my situation in the OP on this thread, and in this thread and this thread.

 

I do appreciate the help. About the masculine frame of mind, I'll tell you, many times when I did it, she fought me tooth and nail to keep control of the relationship. Trying to step up and be the man led to a significant power struggle, which is explained pretty well by Imago therapy. Yeah, I know, I need to dominate her. But women are endlessly clever at finding ways to undermine me. So trying to show leadership only leads to a power struggle, and I promise you she's going to win that one.

 

 

And, I can promise you that no woman 'dominates' me. The thought is laughable.

 

You act like it's impossible to live in anything other than a fem-centric frame. I could tell as much from your posts (I mean no offence, really).

 

This is why you 'fail'.

Edited May 8, 2016 by Jabron1

[Wave Rider]

 

And, I can promise you that no woman 'dominates' me. The thought is laughable.

 

You act like it's impossible to live in anything other than a fem-centric frame. I could tell as much from your posts (I mean no offence, really).

 

This is why you 'fail'.

 

Do you have some secret alpha male knowledge that you'd like to share?

 

I think I'm convinced at this point that a man with anxious attachment can't be alpha. Alpha only works for secure or avoidant men.

 

And if you've got it all figured out, Jabron1, why are you here?

Edited May 8, 2016 by Wave Rider

[Jabron1]

Do you have some secret alpha male knowledge that you'd like to share?

 

You are consciously letting women control you. What do you expect me to do about that? Only you can change that!

 

I think I'm convinced at this point that a man with anxious attachment can't be alpha. Alpha only works for secure or avoidant men.

 

I'm not privy to these attachment styles. But from what I have read of your post on the attachment styles subject, you could be right.

 

Interesting.

 

And if you've got it all figured out, Jabron1, why are you here?

 

All sorts of reasons. It's an interesting place. If I'd have expected to be around as long, I'd have picked a better name

[ThaWholigan]

Think relaxation techniques would help you. Learning to be in the moment is the best advice I can give, because you'll be less focused on results, and how direct/indirect you are. When you're in the moment, you find yourself acting more authentically and ultimately, you will draw in some women who respond to expression, however you choose to approach those women.

 

If you find it difficult to replicate that, then push/pull is a decent way to go. Thing about push/pull is that it's all about tension. Women are not all the same and they respond to all kinds of different things as individuals - but one constant I've found is that they respond to anticipation/tension. Be direct when it's necessary, but hang back otherwise and be more relaxed. Let her do some of the directness. That's really all being 'coy' is, just being more reserved at times.

[Wave Rider]

Two words: push, pull.

 

I looked up some push-pull stuff. So, an alternating series of IOIs (indicator of interest) and IODs (indicator of disinterest.) Complements are pulls and teases are pushes. And yeah, David DeAngelo is the PUA school I've spent the most time with. Here's one of the routines I found:

 

You: What nationality are you?

 

Her: FRENCH

 

You: Seriously? No WAY!!! The girl I had the biggest crush on in high school was French! I can’t even talk to you now.

 

I don't think the women I meet are going to buy into a routine that's this obvious. There's going to see right through it. If there's a more subtle way to push her away, I'd have to use that.

 

I've recently been using Mark Manson's technique of being direct and honest with women. If I disagree with her, I let her know. It seems like there might be adequate push there.

 

And speaking in terms of attachment styles, the hot-cold of avoidants is a natural push-pull, but over a larger time scale. The'll be affectionate one day and cold the next. Anxious people only pull.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Wave Rider

[Jabron1]

I looked up some push-pull stuff. So, an alternating series of IOIs (indicator of interest) and IODs (indicator of disinterest.)

 

Pretty much.

 

Complements are pulls and teases are pushes. And yeah, David DeAngelo is the PUA school I've spent the most time with. Here's one of the routines I found:

 

You: What nationality are you?

 

Her: FRENCH

 

You: Seriously? No WAY!!! The girl I had the biggest crush on in high school was French! I can’t even talk to you now.

 

I don't think the women I meet are going to buy into a routine that's this obvious. There's going to see right through it. If there's a more subtle way to push her away, I'd have to use that.

 

Mate, push/pull isn't just some comedy routine. A push can be as simple as turning your attention elsewhere.

 

When a guy gets a girl's number but waits 2 days to ask her out (even though he really wants to see her ASAP), why do you think that is? It's a push. Same thing with taking your time to answer a text, and an impossible amount of other things. Guys follow this stuff half-arsed, but they don't even know why or what they're doing . Then they complain it 'doesn't work', but they were only using a few cheap tricks rather than actually having an understanding of what these things were, or why they worked.

 

Push/pull is the basis of game.

 

Learn the rules, master the rules, break the rules.

 

I've recently been using Mark Manson's technique of being direct and honest with women. If I disagree with her, I let her know. It seems like there might be adequate push there.

 

No, that's establishing frame. There's no coyness in that. That's a different (but no less important) thing. Remember the masculine frame we spoke of earlier?

 

And speaking in terms of attachment styles, the hot-cold of avoidants is a natural push-pull, but over a larger time scale. The'll be affectionate one day and cold the next. Anxious people only pull.

 

You have interested me in these attachment styles, and I will read up more on this.

 

You're completely right. Avoidant types are natural push/pullers. This is why BPD types are so seductive.

Edited May 9, 2016 by Jabron1