Thoughts on Neediness

[katiegrl]

That's smart!

 

For me, I would never be with an avoidant type.

 

I mean, who in their right mind would?

 

Such types have major issues! Intimacy issues, commitment issues, no thanks!

 

To add, Blanco, do you know where your anxiety comes from? Fear of abandonment ?

 

Have you sought help for that?

 

I use to be very anxious, not limited to relationships.

 

I sought therapy and feel soooooo much better now. Much more secure within myself!

 

Makes all the difference when you can feel that security within yourself rather than seeking it externally from others.

Edited May 7, 2016 by katiegrl

[Blanco]

That's smart!

 

For me, I would never be with an avoidant type.

 

I mean, who in their right mind would?

 

Such types have major issues! Intimacy issues, commitment issues, no thanks!

 

Totally agreed. It was very much a learning experience. I'd had a few LTR prior, but never one with an emotionally unavailable person. I'd heard the expression, and got a sense of what it meant, but hadn't really experienced what it was like to date such a person.

 

Problem is, these types DO on a deeper level want that human connection. They just can't lower those walls for very long to make it happen. Like many avoidant styles, my ex was incredibly charming, engaging, and came on strong once we crossed that barrier of just being two people who hung out to actual romantic partners. She was quite open about her EUA, but again, having never experienced dating someone like that, I underestimated how challenging that could be.

 

I also didn't intend for it to be much more than a casual thing when we started, but obviously that changed. It took her about six months away to pull away for the first time, and I did try to leave it. But I got sucked back in, and continued on for a staggering and emotionally draining two and a half years after that.

 

But like I said, lesson learned. No more of that for me.

[Blanco]

To add, Blanco, do you know where your anxiety comes from? Fear of abandonment ?

 

Have you sought help for that?

 

I use to be very anxious, not limited to relationships.

 

I sought therapy and feel soooooo much better now. Much more secure within myself!

 

Makes all the difference when you can feel that security within yourself rather than seeking it externally from others.

 

I should clarify that, in general, I don't have anxiety. But I do tend to be someone who over-thinks and over-analyzes too much, which is usually a bad thing in a relationship, especially if your partner tends to be avoidant. That was where the real chaos in my last relationship started. I was totally at ease with her and the "relationship" in the first six months leading up to her pulling away for the first time. After that, I never really felt totally at ease again, which is crazy considering how long we were together after that. But a lot happened in our lives to amplify the mismatch we already were in attachment styles.

 

With my secure girlfriend, I never questioned how she felt about me, or worried about her being unfaithful or any of that. We spent quality time together, but also had our own things going, and we both loved that balance. Honestly, having that relationship in my back pocket was definitely a detriment to the relationship with the avoidant, since I had a concrete example of what a genuinely healthy relationship SHOULD be. And even though I gutted it out for three years, I always knew ours wasn't that.

[katiegrl]

Yeah I guess I misunderstood.

 

In your earlier post you said you were more of an "anxious attachment style," which I took mean generally speaking.

 

But you're really not, you were only anxious in that one relationship cuz she was an avoidant, and as such, essentially screwed up. And in turn she screwed you up.

 

Sounds like you are actually a secure attachment type and you need to seek out women who are the same!

 

Which you have figured out so all is good!

[katiegrl]

Blanco, even the most secure person in the world would feel anxious with an avoidant type.

 

Gotta stay away from those types, too many issues!!

 

There are signs even from the get go!!

[Blanco]

Blanco, even the most secure person in the world would feel anxious with an avoidant type.

 

Gotta stay away from those types, too many issues!!

 

Agreed. Problem is, these are often pretty charming people. My ex is also really attractive, so between those two things, she's never had trouble finding someone. We're both in our early 30s, and she's either been in a relationship or "hanging out" with someone all of her adult life; maybe a handful of months sprinkled in there of actually being totally single.

 

Like I said, these people often want that companionship, but they have trouble connecting or showing vulnerability. My ex is that rare mix of being EUA but being uncomfortable when she doesn't have at least a casual partner. After I ended things and moved out, it took her but a few weeks to catch another guy who she's been with ever since.

 

Not coincidentally, after reading up on attachment theory following our breakup, it was interesting to see that pretty much every LTR she had was with a guy who could probably be categorized as anxious attachment. As you may know, avoidants usually end up dating anxious types since avoidants don't usually date "their own" and secure types typically are too wise to get involved with them.

[Keats]

I thought the neediness the media warned against was the one that resulted in controlling behaviour?

 

Men controlling women is seen as a no no.

 

Women controlling men is seen as a - I'm not sure but there's a reason why this advice is dished out mostly to men.

 

I thought it had to do with control.

 

The neediness your talking about is something I thought women die for lol

[katiegrl]

Agreed. Problem is, these are often pretty charming people. My ex is also really attractive, so between those two things, she's never had trouble finding someone. We're both in our early 30s, and she's either been in a relationship or "hanging out" with someone all of her adult life; maybe a handful of months sprinkled in there of actually being totally single.

 

Like I said, these people often want that companionship, but they have trouble connecting or showing vulnerability. My ex is that rare mix of being EUA but being uncomfortable when she doesn't have at least a casual partner. After I ended things and moved out, it took her but a few weeks to catch another guy who she's been with ever since.

 

Not coincidentally, after reading up on attachment theory following our breakup, it was interesting to see that pretty much every LTR she had was with a guy who could probably be categorized as anxious attachment. As you may know, avoidants usually end up dating anxious types since avoidants don't usually date "their own" and secure types typically are too wise to get involved with them.

 

Yeah, and if they weren't the anxious type when they met, their avoidant behavior will soon turn them into one!

 

Stay away! Overly charming, love-bombing, expressing strong feelings and emotions too soon, future talk from the get go, are all signs to look for, in the beginning.

 

Such types are not living in reality. You and the relationship are essentially a fantasy.

 

It is when reality hits when they start panicking and start to pull away.

 

Don't allow yourself to get caught up in it. They will pull you in FAST, only to pull away later just as fast when reality hits.

[Wave Rider]

I understand what your saying, Its kinda a damn if you do, damn if you don't situation and is really frustrating.

 

Yeah, it's a no-win situation. If I give in and let her have her way, I don't get the intimacy I want. And if I stand up for myself and ask for more closeness, she either fights harder for her independence and withdraws, or she ends the relationship, and I don't get the intimacy I want.

 

 

My best relationship was with a girl that would fit the "secure" attachment style.

....

Now, compare that to my last relationship with someone who was an "avoidant" attachment style. After the honeymoon phase passed, her hot-cold, push-pull ways really brought to the surface the worst of my anxious attachment tendencies.

 

I have an anxious attachment style, and I'm usually attracted to avoidant women. I have dated secure women, but the problem is that I feel no chemistry with secure women. Even if she was beautiful and interesting, I found the relationship boring. I feel much more chemistry for avoidant women, which is much of the problem here. I wanted to talk about it in my thread about Attachment Theory, Imago, and Singleness, but not many people wanted to talk about it there. If you have comments there, I would appreciate them The problem is, we have little choice in who we're attracted to. It's not like I can just stop being attracted to avoidant women and start being attracted to secure women. Gay marriage was recently legalized in the US, and one if the key arguments was that we have little control over who we're attracted to.

 

It's very possible that anxious and avoidant are attracted to each other to finish their unfinished childhood business, which I talk about in this thread, which I mentioned above.

 

Another problem is that secure people are usually attracted to other secure people, not to anxious or avoidant. In my belief, secure-secure relationships are stable and healthy, anxious-avoidant relationships are stable and unhealthy, and secure-anxious or secure-avoidant relationships are unstable because neither partner is playing the role expected by the other.

 

And another note on the "you're too needy" accusation. Why is it socially acceptable to accuse someone of being too needy, but it's not socially acceptable to accuse someone of being too distant or needing too much space? If my former GFs had said to me, "You're too needy," could I not have just as easily said to them, "You're too distant" or "You need too much space"? Why is our culture so biased towards the person who wants more independence and against the person who wants more intimacy? Why is it that our culture expects the person who wants more intimacy to back off and give the other some space, rather than expecting the more distant partner to step up and offer more intimacy?

Edited May 7, 2016 by Wave Rider

[PrettyEmily77]

Yeah, it's a no-win situation. If I give in and let her have her way, I don't get the intimacy I want. And if I stand up for myself and ask for more closeness, she either fights harder for her independence and withdraws, or she ends the relationship, and I don't get the intimacy I want.

 

 

 

I have an anxious attachment style, and I'm usually attracted to avoidant women. I have dated secure women, but the problem is that I feel no chemistry with secure women. Even if she was beautiful and interesting, I found the relationship boring. I feel much more chemistry for avoidant women, which is much of the problem here. I wanted to talk about it in my thread about Attachment Theory, Imago, and Singleness, but not many people wanted to talk about it there. If you have comments there, I would appreciate them The problem is, we have little choice in who we're attracted to. It's not like I can just stop being attracted to avoidant women and start being attracted to secure women. Gay marriage was recently legalized in the US, and one if the key arguments was that we have little control over who we're attracted to.

 

It's very possible that anxious and avoidant are attracted to each other to finish their unfinished childhood business, which I talk about in this thread, which I mentioned above.

 

Another problem is that secure people are usually attracted to other secure people, not to anxious or avoidant. In my belief, secure-secure relationships are stable and healthy, anxious-avoidant relationships are stable and unhealthy, and secure-anxious or secure-avoidant relationships are unstable because neither partner is playing the role expected by the other.

 

And another note on the "you're too needy" accusation. Why is it socially acceptable to accuse someone of being too needy, but it's not socially acceptable to accuse someone of being too distant or needing too much space? If my former GFs had said to me, "You're too needy," could I not have just as easily said to them, "You're too distant" or "You need too much space"? Why is our culture so biased towards the person who wants more independence and against the person who wants more intimacy? Why is it that our culture expects the person who wants more intimacy to back off and give the other some space, rather than expecting the more distant partner to step up and offer more intimacy?

 

I've gotten into attachment style theory recently and it does kind of make sense to a point. Like everything else though, it's not gospel and you're not condemned to be anxious or avoidant all your life - a lot of it is still down to the choices you make and the people you elect to be in a relationship with, and how well you know and / are genuinely honest with yourself.

 

I kind of think that society as it is now is geared towards pushing people into becoming avoidant by default: not answered a message within 5 minutes? You must be avoidant. Don't want to commit within a particular time-frame? You must be avoidant. Don't want to meet the parents within 3 months? You must be avoidant. You don't want to make plans for next weekend? You must be avoidant. Which automatically makes the asker an anxious person.

 

If you're made to feel needy, you're in the wrong relationship. It doesn't necessarily mean you are needy though, just that your needs aren't met by your partner.

[Wave Rider]

 

I kind of think that society as it is now is geared towards pushing people into becoming avoidant by default: not answered a message within 5 minutes? You must be avoidant. Don't want to commit within a particular time-frame? You must be avoidant. Don't want to meet the parents within 3 months? You must be avoidant. You don't want to make plans for next weekend? You must be avoidant. Which automatically makes the asker an anxious person.

 

I've had the opposite experience. My experience is that people are quickly branded as being too needy. Did you analyze that things she said about you, looking for clues? You're too needy because you care what she thinks. Did you want to see her that night she went out with her friends? You need to give her some space. Did you give in and take her to the restaurant she wanted to go to instead of the one you wanted to go to? You needed her approval so badly that you let her walk all over you. Did you ask her on a second date when you got mixed signals on the first date? You're so needy that you'll take any scrap a woman will throw you.

 

It's pretty annoying.

[preraph]

Totally agreed. It was very much a learning experience. I'd had a few LTR prior, but never one with an emotionally unavailable person. I'd heard the expression, and got a sense of what it meant, but hadn't really experienced what it was like to date such a person.

 

Problem is, these types DO on a deeper level want that human connection. They just can't lower those walls for very long to make it happen. Like many avoidant styles, my ex was incredibly charming, engaging, and came on strong once we crossed that barrier of just being two people who hung out to actual romantic partners. She was quite open about her EUA, but again, having never experienced dating someone like that, I underestimated how challenging that could be.

 

I also didn't intend for it to be much more than a casual thing when we started, but obviously that changed. It took her about six months away to pull away for the first time, and I did try to leave it. But I got sucked back in, and continued on for a staggering and emotionally draining two and a half years after that.

 

But like I said, lesson learned. No more of that for me.

 

The only thing good I can say about the avoidant types is when done correctly, they don't make you feel like it's your problem or your failure or your inadequacy. My one love interest who never hurt me had intimacy issues, so much so that he married someone who didn't speak his language. haha. His issues stemmed from having a chronic disease as a child and not being expected to live, but he did live and recreated himself and became a remarkable man, albeit one you couldn't hope to keep up with because he preferred globe-jumping to living in the US. He is the one love of mine who never broke my heart. Even when he would disappea, I just felt good for having known him and kind of knew I'd see him again. And I did, still, 25 years later.

[Wave Rider]

The only thing good I can say about the avoidant types is when done correctly, they don't make you feel like it's your problem or your failure or your inadequacy.

 

One of my avoidant girlfriends did take responsibility for the failure of the relationship, but it was in a "I need to figure out who I am" and an "I don't want to push you away" kind of way. The other one blamed me and was pretty hard on me when we broke up.

[preraph]

One of my avoidant girlfriends did take responsibility for the failure of the relationship, but it was in a "I need to figure out who I am" and an "I don't want to push you away" kind of way. The other one blamed me and was pretty hard on me when we broke up.

 

Yes, and unfortunately, that is probably more common than the ones who take care not to make it your fault. I think women deal with more avoidant types, men who don't like to talk it out, you know. It's unfair no matter who's doing it. We have a right to know what a person we are in a relationship with is thinking, and whether it's going anywhere or we're just killing time.

[spiderowl]

In all the dating advice I've read, the most universally condemned trait for both men and women, the trait that will kill attraction faster than anything else, is "neediness." Especially in men's dating advice as I've experienced it, anytime someone is struggling with dating, the universal cry from others is that "it's because you're too needy." The trouble is, I'm not exactly sure what neediness is, because the word is used in two distinctly differently ways:

 

Neediness 1: trying to win the approval of others by suppressing your own feelings, desires, and opinions.

 

Neediness 2: wanting more intimacy and closeness in the relationship than the other person wants.

 

One is about a desire for approval and the other is about a desire for intimacy, and people use them interchangeably, even though they're not the same.

 

I agree that suppressing one's own desires to get the approval of other people is unhealthy and can rightly be called "needy." I'm not so sure about the second one. In any relationship, one person is going to want more intimacy than the other, and one will be more interested in the relationship than the other. In all such situations, it seems that the lower-interest partner will experience the higher-interest partner as being needy. If I'm in a relationship with a woman, and she wants to see me once a week and I want to see her four times a week, she will experience me as being needy. If I want to hold hands in public, and she doesn't because she doesn't like PDA, she will experience me as being needy. Even if I approach a new woman and ask for her phone number, and she's not interested, the fact that I'm more interested than she is will cause her to experience me as being needy.

 

The desire for intimacy has been a problem in my past relationships. I wanted more intimacy, she wanted less. Even when I was direct in asking for what I wanted, my desire for more intimacy seemed to set off her internal alarms that I was being too needy.

 

So what is neediness? Is it needy to want more intimacy than your partner wants? What are your thoughts?

 

 

The times when I've felt 'neediness' as such to be a problem in relationships is when it is very new and the guy starts to be invasive - asking lots of questions about what I'm doing, when, where I'm going, and generally giving me the impression he's very serious and expects me to be practically committed to him from the start. If I'm just getting to know him, this definitely spoils any fun element and makes me feel encroached upon. It suddenly stops being my choice who I see because he is making it clear by his intensity that he expects it to be him and him only. Given that I'm just learning about him, it's not a trait I want. I want to feel free and to feel I am choosing to spend time with him and share with him, not feeling like he's watching my every move.

 

 

I can understand a guy might be keen and genuine and seeking exclusivity, but imposing those expectations from the start feels oppressive and positively scary. When this has happened, I opt out immediately; I'm just not prepared to feel bound to someone I am just getting to know.

Edited May 8, 2016 by spiderowl