There are responsibilities for a BS in reconciliation.

[ShatteredLady]

I think it's more like 2 14 year olds Liam. Yes, they can both be guilty...or...one can be guilty of being overweight & wearing glasses!!! Or just having something about them, or something (unknown to them) that attracts bullies.

 

I had to appear in court for the defense of someone being bullied once. It was so interesting how the lawyer twisted things, making it sound like it's always an issue between 2 teenagers.

 

Liam, I've commented before that I think it's a great thing that you're here with your perspective. May I gently note that maybe hysterical bonding (given that sex was your issue) has contributed to your views? Your marriage is better for you because you're getting the sex?

 

I don't know. People & affairs are so different.

 

My husband never told me anything was wrong. He even described our marriage as "magical". To this day all I know is he ripped my heart out because I wasn't making him feel "Special" enough & he felt my health had stopped us doing things when it was his job loss that resulted in our cancelled plans (other than my normal recovery period from surgery when my Mum came to help & he went to 3 'events' with the kids (amusement park etc) in that time not me or both of us.

 

I'm pointing out that not all situations are as explainable... No sex, talked about it, tried everything, had a PA only, don't like OW. Now R.

 

You know what I mean?

[wmacbride]

To answer your two questions:

 

1 - What the BS needs to do to reconcile properly is:

 

The BS needs to stop childishly insisting they did nothing wrong. It's like two five year olds pointing fingers at each other with neither admitting to any wrong doing. Come on. Give me a break.

 

I have never broken up a dispute where two normal five year olds actually each did nothing to contribute to the dispute or to escalate it.

 

My BS did not childishly refuse to acknowledge fault. She accepted responsibility for her part that led to the affair. I accepted my part in having the affair.

 

As someone else mentioned our reconciliation taught me a lot about unconditional love, and it is the reason our reconciliation is working.

 

If she had not, I would have filed for divorce fairly quickly.

 

Some people may not file for divorce when a BS continues to hold the affair over the WS's head, because they are trapped financially. My wife and I are not trapped financially.

 

 

2 - What the WS needs to do is:

 

End the affair and seek counseling and listen to the counselors advice on how to proceed.

 

IMO, most WS's who want to salvage the marriage will automatically be remorseful.

 

What I see, however, time and again are a lot of BS's who want to hold the affair over the WS's head forever as a way to hold the moral high ground, at least in their own minds.

 

They say well if the WS was unhappy why did they NOT divorce.

 

Yet the BS is now unhappy but they have not divorced.

 

Don't they see the irony. Or are they too locked in denial of their own faults?

 

In those cases, where the BS is still embracing martyrdom, my guess is the WS will likely have another affair because the marriage is still dysfunctional and the BS will not budge an inch in admitting fault, and likely never did prior to the affair. The WS will not divorce PROBABLY because the WS is trapped financially in the marriage.

 

When I see someone insisting that they did nothing in the marriage that led to the affair, it just makes me sad for them. Again, it's like two squabbling five-year-olds both insisting they did nothing to instigate or escalate the squabble.

 

The caveat to all of the above being that if the WS has personality disorder like NPD or HPD, the BS may actually not be at fault.

 

In those cases, the BS may not have done anything egregious to instigate an affair, but then if the WS has a PD, the BS should wisely divorce because apparently personality disorders are highly resistant to correction through counseling.

 

Than again, some people have affairs because the so named "loyal spouse has the Personality disorder.

 

 

 

Unconditional love?

 

how is showing unconditional love finding someone else to sleep with behind her back and then rubbing her nose in it by telling her it was all her fault? That's about as far form unconditional love as you can get, as it's predicated on her carrying the burden for your actions.

 

anyway,

 

as a bs in a marriage that has successfully reconciled, I can say that it's really hard to have a set system of rules that a bs should follow, as the steps taken depend on the couple involved.

 

For example, if it's a one night stand where the ws maybe had a bit too much to drink and made a huge mistake will likely be different than an affair where the ws went looking for something outside the marriage. Different again will be the case where the ws gets pregnant or fathers a child with the ow.

 

The nuances and factors are all different, as are the personalities of those involved. In some cases, one or both spouses is a straightforward type of person, who likes to have a series of steps to follow and needs to know exactly what their husband or wife needs form them. in others, they are more easygoing or passive, and there might be no set road map for them.

 

The biggest factor is for the two of them to feel free to talk about how they feel, and there is no time limit on that. healing from it is a lifelong process, and so long as progress is being made, that's okay. The work can be hard, but it can also be a lot of fun.

[Liam1]

I think someone would have to work pretty to hard to rationalize the idea that affairs somehow solve problems in marriages. Affairs don't solve problems, they are the problem.

 

The affair is not always the initial problem. More often than not they are a reaction to an existing problem, unless the person has a personality disorder.

 

The initial problem in some cases may be a BS who is in total denial about their own faults and refuses to see another point of view. Only their opinion matters and to heck with the spouse's point of view.

 

Your point of view is egocentric and quite insular and not in line with everyone's cultural or intellectual perceptions. But you are certainly entitled to voice your opinion.

 

I am speaking only from my personal experience. You are speaking for everyone or so it appears and in generalizations rooted in your own personal perspective, nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

Here is the definition of the word rationalize:

 

a·tion·al·ize

ˈraSHənlˌīz,ˈraSHnəˌlīz/

verb

 

 

1. attempt to explain or justify (one's own or another's behavior or attitude) with logical, plausible reasons, even if these are not true or appropriate.

"she couldn't rationalize her urge to return to the cottage"

The operative phrase within the definition being: Even if not true or appropriate.

 

 

 

But I do think it's important that we all see the kind of rationalization that takes place in someone's mind before, during and after an affair. You have to be pretty far away from reality to think that an affair is a positive thing for a marriage.

Well another generalization. And, there are quite a few world renowned psychologists and fidelity experts and many local psychologists who disagree with you vigorously.

 

I would venture to say that's about as close to delusion as you could probably get without complete insanity but it seems to be common among WS.

Are you aware that a a delusion, is a distortion of reality?

 

Are you claiming to know the reality of numerous marriages that have been improved by an affair. You actually have inside information to all those spouses' minds, or perhaps you are distorting someone else's reality to fit your own interpretation of their reality?

 

If you truly think that you have an inside track to the minds of every BS or WS in reconciliation then that means you believe yourself to be psychic.

 

I am not speaking for everyone. I am speaking from my personal experience. My experience is that the affair, definitively solved a problem in my marriage. Not only that, but our new marriage is far better than the old.

 

I think it is important for people to know that. I am a living example of that.

 

I think perhaps you need to ask yourself why that thought takes you so far out of your comfort zone?

 

You might want to read writing by Berch, Vaughn, Perel, Gottman, Schnarck

[Liam1]

 

Liam, I've commented before that I think it's a great thing that you're here with your perspective. May I gently note that maybe hysterical bonding (given that sex was your issue) has contributed to your views? Your marriage is better for you because you're getting the sex?

 

You might want to research Hysterical bonding. It is a short honeymoon type phase after initial revelation of the affair. it does not last very long.

 

My affair was way way too far back for hysterical bonding to maintain it at this point.

 

But interesting thought, nonetheless.

 

I only read select posts here, some screen names I completely ignore because their POV is far too rigid. But I always read yours and value your opinion.

 

Still, you are aware that the Original Poster asked what the BS can do to ensure a successful reconciliation and what the WS can do, right?

 

I am simply answering that question. I don't know why so many people insist on responding to my posts to the original poster by asking me off topic questions.

 

I don't know. People & affairs are so different.

True. I have said that repeatedly.

 

IMO, in some cases the betrayed spouse did nothing egregious to cause the affair, but in just as many cases, they did.

 

I'm pointing out that not all situations are as explainable... No sex, talked about it, tried everything, had a PA only, don't like OW. Now R.

Again I agree. I have never said otherwise. I have many times mentioned that I am speaking only about my own marriage and from my own experience regarding observations in friends marriages in which infidelity occurred.

 

Yes. Sometimes, the BS did nothing that terrible in the marriage. Other times they did. And other times they are just in denial about their faults and would rather destroy the marriage than admit to their personal failings.

 

Yes. Every marriage is different.

 

But again, I am simply responding to the posters question of what each can do to ensure a successful reconciliation.

[Furious]

I have been thinking, that while one can never forget what was done, and should not, the affair, the cheating, and the lying, that once you have made the decision to reconcile, you then must, take divorce, and other negative positions off the table if reconciliation is to really work. The BS has work to do as well as the WS. Not only must the cheating be addressed, but any other problems in the marriage must be worked on as well.

 

We all know what the WS must and has to do for a "good" reconciliation, but, and this maybe harder, there are things a BS must do as well. Remember, as a BS, you have decided that life is better, even living with the betrayal, with your spouse.

 

What must a BS do to make the reconciliation work? My thoughts.

 

1) Forgive, and not hold over the WS their action, unless by their present actions, their past must be readdressed. IE, I do not bring up my wife past ONS, and over spending, unless it is germane to the conversation or situation.

 

2) Really decide if you are going to reconcile and give it 100%. Once your "gift" is given you should be prepared for all the hard work that it implies.

 

3) Accept when and if the WS is working and changing, and while verifying, give them benefit of the doubt when warranted.

 

4) Approach the marriage as equals on issues and problems that are not from the affair. In other words, at some point, future problems must be dealt with and the high ground will need to be abandoned.

 

 

This is assuming, and this can be a big assumption, that the WS is a former WS, and is doing everything that is asked for and accepted to reconcile. In other words, a false reconciliation is not happening. Example: Mrs. JA, and there are others, VBM wife, Anne was doing everything she could to walk the straight and narrow.

 

For those that advise divorce, and only divorce, I would ask that you widen your position, and give some thought to what you may think is necessary for a BS to have a good reconciliation.

 

My two cents, and lets hope for a good conversation...........

 

 

 

In order to do what is necessary for a BS to have a good reconciliation is a two way street. A marriage is made of two individuals, it's impossible to reconcile on one's own.

 

It's easy to play the blame game. I do believe true reconciliation cannot be achieved if one or both play the blame game. If so, I do believe the marriage may appear recovered but it's only an illusion.

 

Every attempt at reconciliation has it's own unique obstacles and circumstance and the time frame will vary as to when a betrayed spouse feels safe to trust again.

 

Reading the many threads, there is a myriad of situations that affect reconciliation. Sometimes it's a false reconciliation and the affair is continuing, or it can be a former ow/om who is harassing the betrayed spouse, it can be a pregnant affair partner, it can be a betrayed spouse dealing with an std,etc......

 

Reading here, there are so many variances and to lump it all in one time frame with should or shouldn't is not a one size fits all solution.

 

Many posters here are in different situations and time frames, and it would be insensitive to not recognize it.

Just my 2 cents

[ShatteredLady]

I'm sorry Liam.

 

I was writing something like 'Liam you seem to be changing your tone & feelings' I'm very glad I didn't! Thank you for your answer. I realize that you're being a little cornered here & I know from my personal experience that I start to sound frustrated & extreme in my views when that happens.

 

Yes, you have always owned your situation.

[Liam1]

I'm sorry Liam.

 

I was writing something like 'Liam you seem to be changing your tone & feelings' I'm very glad I didn't! Thank you for your answer. I realize that you're being a little cornered here & I know from my personal experience that I start to sound frustrated & extreme in my views when that happens.

 

Yes, you have always owned your situation.

 

Thank you, shattered. I hope you are not saying that I am frustrated. I am not. Do you feel my POV is extreme?

 

I don't feel cornered at all. To me this is just a discussion.

 

Yes, some people are being somewhat rude, (not you at least I don't see it that way) but that is their problem not mine. I deal with rude people every day.

 

No problem. I like reading other POV's it's enlightening.

 

Shattered: You are right, I have change my tone and feeling since originally starting to post here.

 

Why?

 

Through reading the posts, I see that many people refuse to admit they may play a part in their marital issues. This validated for me my original sense that my wife's refusal to acknowledge a problem I continually addressed and ongoing refusal to get counseling with me, was wrong and not productive to a functional marriage.

 

I see other people doing this and IMO, this will not help their reconciliation.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Liam1

[drifter777]

Preface: I cannot empathize with a BW so my opinions are always directed only to BH.

 

I'm one of those guys who nearly always advises divorce. The times I do not strongly advocate that a man divorce a cheating wife fall into 3 categories:

 

1) The guy doesn't much care about the sex. He's not suffering the torture of mind movies of some other guy screwing his wife. Those guys have a shot at reconciliation.

 

2) If there are children than R is usually worth a try. Even he's torn up by the sex and the trauma of his wife's betrayal, he may decide to just tough it out for his kids. I don't recommend staying just for the kids but I understand that reason.

 

3) The guy is also a cheater.

 

For most BH's, divorce is the path to healing and recovery. You are a WH and cannot empathize with a BH. You are certainly entitled to your opinions but they are academic.

[Furious]

To answer your two questions:

 

1 - What the BS needs to do to reconcile properly is:

 

The BS needs to stop childishly insisting they did nothing wrong. It's like two five year olds pointing fingers at each other with neither admitting to any wrong doing. Come on. Give me a break.

 

I have never broken up a dispute where two normal five year olds actually each did nothing to contribute to the dispute or to escalate it.

 

My BS did not childishly refuse to acknowledge fault. She accepted responsibility for her part that led to the affair. I accepted my part in having the affair.

 

As someone else mentioned our reconciliation taught me a lot about unconditional love, and it is the reason our reconciliation is working.

 

If she had not, I would have filed for divorce fairly quickly.

 

Some people may not file for divorce when a BS continues to hold the affair over the WS's head, because they are trapped financially. My wife and I are not trapped financially.

 

 

2 - What the WS needs to do is:

 

End the affair and seek counseling and listen to the counselors advice on how to proceed.

 

IMO, most WS's who want to salvage the marriage will automatically be remorseful.

 

What I see, however, time and again are a lot of BS's who want to hold the affair over the WS's head forever as a way to hold the moral high ground, at least in their own minds.

 

They say well if the WS was unhappy why did they NOT divorce.

 

Yet the BS is now unhappy but they have not divorced.

 

Don't they see the irony. Or are they too locked in denial of their own faults?

 

In those cases, where the BS is still embracing martyrdom, my guess is the WS will likely have another affair because the marriage is still dysfunctional and the BS will not budge an inch in admitting fault, and likely never did prior to the affair. The WS will not divorce PROBABLY because the WS is trapped financially in the marriage.

 

When I see someone insisting that they did nothing in the marriage that led to the affair, it just makes me sad for them. Again, it's like two squabbling five-year-olds both insisting they did nothing to instigate or escalate the squabble.

 

The caveat to all of the above being that if the WS has personality disorder like NPD or HPD, the BS may actually not be at fault.

 

In those cases, the BS may not have done anything egregious to instigate an affair, but then if the WS has a PD, the BS should wisely divorce because apparently personality disorders are highly resistant to correction through counseling.

 

Than again, some people have affairs because the so named "loyal spouse has the Personality disorder.

 

Parts of your reasoning I agree with but where you lose me is how you've compartmentalized your affair. I read you had an affair with a married woman and it seems you did not feel empathy for her husband. Was the lack of sex in your marriage justifiable to have sex with another man's wife? This is where you lose credibility in your reasoning. I understand your wife hurt you by not being sexually intimate with you but how does not bring into question your ability to involve yourself with another man's wife?

[ladydesigner]

Thank you, shattered. I hope you are not saying that I am frustrated. I am not. Do you feel my POV is extreme?

 

I don't feel cornered at all. To me this is just a discussion.

 

Yes, some people are being somewhat rude, (not you at least I don't see it that way) but that is their problem not mine. I deal with rude people every day.

 

No problem. I like reading other POV's it's enlightening.

 

Shattered: You are right, I have change my tone and feeling since originally starting to post here.

 

Why?

 

Through reading the posts, I see that many people refuse to admit they may play a part in their marital issues. This validated for me my original sense that my wife's refusal to acknowledge a problem I continually addressed and ongoing refusal to get counseling with me, was wrong and not productive to a functional marriage.

 

I see other people doing this and IMO, this will not help their reconciliation.

 

Liam the thing with me is I did address my issues prior to Dday. I was addressing them in therapy, but my WH had issues as well that led to my issues (but like you say that is not helpful so I try not to say well you did this so that led me to doing this. That is tit for tat and I don't like that way of thinking. Already been down that road with my RA.) When Dday hit he gave me a whole other slew of reasons for him having his A. I did pull back somewhat during that time, but my WH was never home and never helped me in raising our kids. He has always been very selfish.

 

My reactions after Dday were piss poor, but I worked on those too in therapy. Now I don't overreact anymore it has been a blessing for me to have gotten this help.

 

Guess who hasn't gone to therapy for any of his issues? My WH

 

I agree with you that both parties need to own their part in the breakdown of the M. It is much harder for a BS to do this immediately after Dday. Maybe after they have processed the A and emotions calm down then they can come back and look at the M.

 

My situation is an example of what it is like to be with an unremorseful WS so I try to offer that pov in case someone else is in my position.

 

I gave everything I had to R and it got crapped on and continues to get crapped on. I am owning that I am currently in the position I am in because I am scared. I am hoping that will change.

[ShatteredLady]

This is one of those subjects that brings out gut reactions...it does for me anyway!

 

It's hard. I have to keep reminding myself that it's not about me. It's "In general". The problem is, a lot of members join, state their case, get advise & leave. The group at any given time is made of old (no offense) regulars, new members & people like me who just aren't getting what they need...

 

For example my H has only said "I'm sorry" once! It was after I screamed at him for the first time EVER in our marriage because 2 days after d-day he accused me of "picking the scab & never letting it heal!". 2 DAYS!!! I lost it. What he actually said was "Of course I'm f**king sorry!".

 

See? It's hard!! I try to have a factual, non emotional reaction, theoretical discussion about 'most' or 'some' A & I just trigger, start crying & post my story!! Ugh!! I get what everyone is saying but maybe raw bs's in the first year shouldn't be invited to join the conversation.

 

In my head I couldn't give a flying f what my H needs to recover half the time! I've spent my WHOLE f'in life thinking about what he needs! We used to say (warning!! Pathetic coming...) "I live for you. Your needs are my priority. I live to make you happy but you do exactly the same for me so we are both perfectly taken care of!". Yeh, that worked well!!

 

What should the bs do?

 

* I don't pick the scab.

* I give what he needs (see above)

* when I cry everyday I do it alone (see above)

* I (again) sell everything & move & start again.

 

* I don't talk about the things that made him have an A, my health (spine, cancer, internal organs etc) & keep it all inside trying to act like nothing's wrong. (I can't actually not be sick so that's the next best thing. Correct?)

 

* I try to shine a bright light on the things he feels bad about (his weight, appearance, career etc)

 

* I deal with any kid problems so he's not stressed by it.

 

* I try to make him feel like a special little snowflake & never, NEVER talk about the elephant because it's too fresh & his response is "YES! I know. I'm a piece of s**t" or similar phrase.

 

 

Again, impossible to have an unemotional post on this! When someone says "It's BOTH the WS & BS fault", my brain still screams "I'm f'in sorry I survived the surgery & inconvenienced you. Take 'In sickness & health & shove it up ya bum!".

 

What can the bs do? Try to keep sanity & live through it for my kids.

[Mrs. John Adams]

We all have differing opinions...and what is right for one is not necessarily right for others.

 

I will say this...if my reaction as a wayward had been like others here posting....we would have divorced....and I truly believe 90% of those posting would agree.

 

I don't want to be argumentative and disrespectful...so I have found the best way for me to deal with it is to put people on ignore. I can still see their posts of course when others quote them.

 

I can tell you if I had been arrogant instead of humble....if i had blame shifted instead of accepting responsibility for my actions....if i had validated my behavior by declaring I deserved it because my spouse was at fault....had I threatened my spouse in any way rather than approaching him in love and compassion for what i had done to him.....

 

he would have most certainly kicked me to the curb.

 

Now I am not stating that I did everything right...because I did not......but I do have thirty years of reconciliation under my belt.....and when i read some of these things that go against every book I have read or every therapist i had listened to...or every forum I have participated on....and it is repeated over and over again and argued over and over again......and I hear the frustration in the posts of so many Betrayed spouses...it truly breaks my heart.

 

I do not understand the definitions being used to define the term "cheater".

A wife is a cheater who fakes orgasm...a wife is a cheater who wont have intercourse...a wife is a cheater who does not provide my needs.

 

I have never heard of anything so absolutely absurd.

 

A wife is a cheater when she engages with another man inappropriately.... other than her husband. All of these other definitions do not describe infidelity. They describe marital issues and problems.....but not INFIDELITY.

 

IF we are to continue discussing infidelity then we must agree on the definition. I think this is where we are becoming divisive.

 

If you think "cheating" or infidelity is not engaging in inappropriate behavior with the other sex other than your spouse....then we certainly cannot agree on how to approach healing.

[AlwaysGrowing]

The affair is not always the initial problem. More often than not they are a reaction to an existing problem, unless the person has a personality disorder.

 

The initial problem in some cases may be a BS who is in total denial about their own faults and refuses to see another point of view. Only their opinion matters and to heck with the spouse's point of view.

 

Your point of view is egocentric and quite insular and not in line with everyone's cultural or intellectual perceptions. But you are certainly entitled to voice your opinion.

 

I am speaking only from my personal experience. You are speaking for everyone or so it appears and in generalizations rooted in your own personal perspective, nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

Here is the definition of the word rationalize:

 

The operative phrase within the definition being: Even if not true or appropriate.

 

 

 

Well another generalization. And, there are quite a few world renowned psychologists and fidelity experts and many local psychologists who disagree with you vigorously.

 

Are you aware that a a delusion, is a distortion of reality?

 

Are you claiming to know the reality of numerous marriages that have been improved by an affair. You actually have inside information to all those spouses' minds, or perhaps you are distorting someone else's reality to fit your own interpretation of their reality?

 

If you truly think that you have an inside track to the minds of every BS or WS in reconciliation then that means you believe yourself to be psychic.

 

I am not speaking for everyone. I am speaking from my personal experience. My experience is that the affair, definitively solved a problem in my marriage. Not only that, but our new marriage is far better than the old.

 

I think it is important for people to know that. I am a living example of that.

 

I think perhaps you need to ask yourself why that thought takes you so far out of your comfort zone?

 

You might want to read writing by Berch, Vaughn, Perel, Gottman, Schnarck

 

 

If you cite your wife withholding sex as the catalyst for your affair, why then do you give "the affair" the "marriage problem solving" status.

 

Would it not be :withholding sex is a great way to solve marriage problems.

 

If not for the gift of a sexless marriage...your marriage would not be where it is today.

 

Which begs the question....should a sexless marriage WS thank their BS for sexlessness?

[ShatteredLady]

When you're a fresh, new bs paralyzed in agony it's so hard to read without bias. Certain phrases scream & trigger, silencing the words around them.

 

I've been through a lot in my life. This is by far the most destroying thing! My whole reality has changed. I am not living the life I believed completely & utterly that I was. Statements that don't acknowledge that reality hurt & stop my rational reading ability sometimes.

 

I KNOW that Liam has been incredibly kind & sensitive to me. I KNOW that he's not talking about me in most of the things he says. It's still hard not to be hurt by some phrasing because I'm a bs so I hear ALL BS (although it's NOT what's said!)

 

 

"The BS needs to stop childishly insisting they did nothing wrong."

 

"....are they too locked in denial of their own faults?"

 

"...where the BS is still embracing martyrdom,"

 

"Personally, I don't see an affair as a "nuke." To me it is way to solve a problem. It is away to address deficits in the marriage without dropping the "nuke" of divorce."

 

"IMO, I don't see that an affair is always abusive"

 

"The BS insists beyond all rational sane logic that they did absolutely nothing wrong in the marriage."

 

"....when a BS refuses to accept any responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage, then that is obviously likely the ONE most obvious reason the WS had an affair."

 

 

What I don't hear is....

 

"IMO, in some cases the betrayed spouse did nothing egregious to cause the affair, but in just as many cases, they did."

 

"I have many times mentioned that I am speaking only about my own marriage and from my own experience regarding observations in friends marriages in which infidelity occurred."

 

 

Like this statement. Now I read it...yes! But in a delicate state I just hear the bold if I'm not careful!!

 

"Yes. Sometimes, the BS did nothing that terrible in the marriage. Other times they did. And other times they are just in denial about their faults and would rather destroy the marriage than admit to their personal failings."

 

 

In my case you're not talking to a normal, sane, rational person. I'm a bs!!

[Liam1]

Shattered:

 

The original poster later in the thread asked what the BS or WS can do to facilitate the reconciliation. I posted my answer to him. It was not meant to address your marriage specifically.

 

Also, thank you for acknowledging, in your own words, that there is typically a great amount of transference and projection taking place on forums like these. I agree.

 

The bottom line is that for a reconciliation to work, the BS and WS have to stop the finger pointing and BOTH have to work on the marriage.

 

This is not my opinion, this is the opinion of infidelity experts.

 

You truly have my empathy. Reconciliation in the early stage is very difficult and it is a leap of faith always for both partners.

 

All marriages are different.

 

Some marriages are not meant to be saved.

 

The original poster was asking how to facilitate a reconciliation. His reconciliation appears to be going well. Hence my honest responses given from my perspective and given that my reconciliation is also going well. But my response does not apply to all marriages. All are unique.

 

I am sorry you feel you have to treat your husband like a "special little snowflake," as you put it.

 

My wife does not treat me like a delicate flower, though. She never hid her tears or anger. Nor, would I expect or want her to. Also 2 days would be too early for your WS to expect you to stop picking the scab. More like two to five years, depending on the depth of damage, and the condition of the marriage pre-affair.

 

In addition when you bring up the elephant and he says: "yes, I know I am a piece of ****, he is avoiding the tough conversations he needs to have with you.

 

Are you guys seeing a good infidelity counselor?

 

Personally, and I am not a shrink, I don't think that is healthy for you to repress your emotions to please him. Your husband needs to hear your anger and pain.

 

Still, Not all reconciliations will work. Particularly if your spouse refuses counseling or if he will not follow the counselor's suggestions.

 

I was warned early on by my counselor not to say the things your husband has said. So, maybe he needs someone to spell things out for him. Apparently that is common.

 

I don't think we can post links here, but there is a web page that discusses marriage counseling. it is titled: 13 things a marriage counselor won't tell you. It was posted at Reader's digest web page. Maybe you can google it.

 

It is an interesting and enlightening list. Maybe you can read it and show it to him.

 

You ask what a BS can do to preserve their sanity and live through it for the kids.

 

I am not sure what you mean by that question. But let me assume it means you have given up on the marriage, but can not divorce due to the kids.

 

Well, in that situation, IMO, the best you can do is work on yourself. Be civil to each other, but stop trying to please him. Do things that please you SOMETIMES, too.

 

Let go of the fear of the marriage ending and just live your life. Go back to school, work out, if you can. Visit friends and family more often. Act more like business partner rather than spouses, if you have given up on the marriage but need to stay for the kids.

 

Ask yourself what makes you happy? Then focus on finding a way to do those things.

 

I know all these answers are trite and simplistic. But reconciliations are not easy.

 

I am sorry about your health issues. It really s**ks when you are sick in general, but to be dealing with marital issues too is throwing gasoline on the fire.

 

My wife was not as traumautized by the affair as you appear to be. Her attitude is similar to the attitude the poster using the screen name "Recent Change" often expresses. My wife is a different person, than you, though. Each person is unique, just as the dynamic in each marriage is. My wife always had her own life. We both did. We don't have children, either. Perhaps that made things easier.

 

This is one of those subjects that brings out gut reactions...it does for me anyway!

 

It's hard. I have to keep reminding myself that it's not about me. It's "In general". The problem is, a lot of members join, state their case, get advise & leave. The group at any given time is made of old (no offense) regulars, new members & people like me who just aren't getting what they need...

 

For example my H has only said "I'm sorry" once! It was after I screamed at him for the first time EVER in our marriage because 2 days after d-day he accused me of "picking the scab & never letting it heal!". 2 DAYS!!! I lost it. What he actually said was "Of course I'm f**king sorry!".

 

See? It's hard!! I try to have a factual, non emotional reaction, theoretical discussion about 'most' or 'some' A & I just trigger, start crying & post my story!! Ugh!! I get what everyone is saying but maybe raw bs's in the first year shouldn't be invited to join the conversation.

 

In my head I couldn't give a flying f what my H needs to recover half the time! I've spent my WHOLE f'in life thinking about what he needs! We used to say (warning!! Pathetic coming...) "I live for you. Your needs are my priority. I live to make you happy but you do exactly the same for me so we are both perfectly taken care of!". Yeh, that worked well!!

 

What should the bs do?

 

* I don't pick the scab.

* I give what he needs (see above)

* when I cry everyday I do it alone (see above)

* I (again) sell everything & move & start again.

 

* I don't talk about the things that made him have an A, my health (spine, cancer, internal organs etc) & keep it all inside trying to act like nothing's wrong. (I can't actually not be sick so that's the next best thing. Correct?)

 

* I try to shine a bright light on the things he feels bad about (his weight, appearance, career etc)

 

* I deal with any kid problems so he's not stressed by it.

 

* I try to make him feel like a special little snowflake & never, NEVER talk about the elephant because it's too fresh & his response is "YES! I know. I'm a piece of s**t" or similar phrase.

 

 

Again, impossible to have an unemotional post on this! When someone says "It's BOTH the WS & BS fault", my brain still screams "I'm f'in sorry I survived the surgery & inconvenienced you. Take 'In sickness & health & shove it up ya bum!".

 

What can the bs do? Try to keep sanity & live through it for my kids.

[ShatteredLady]

"The original poster later in the thread asked what the BS or WS can do to facilitate the reconciliation. I posted my answer to him. It was not meant to address your marriage specifically."

 

Exactly! That's what I meant. I KNOW that you don't think that "I" am a bs in the situation that you're talking about (I hope not!). It's REALLY hard not to hear it that way when you're in pain. That's what I meant by my post.

 

When I say "What can the bs do?" (Or whatever) I'm referring to the original thread question.

 

 

On a personal note about my health, exercise etc. I've spent years helping others with chronic pain...I'm kind of an 'expert'. I mention it a lot because it's the secondary reason my H gave for his A...not feeling "Special" while I was recovering from life saving surgery was reason number 1.

 

Returning too England & selling our dream house & most of our belongings & starting again is honestly a HUGE sacrifice from my H. Once I stated it was now my ONLY option (I'm too vulnerable & isolated in this country) he has never once questioned it although I know it's the last thing he wants to do.

 

 

Last note. I think the fact that this is A number 2 with the SAME OW, 12 years apart makes a huge difference.

I forgave & pretty much forgot the first time. Yep! Rug sweeping.

 

My character... I'd find a purely sexual thing so very much easier. (Even though it's what he claims it's not what he was writing to her)

Edited April 8, 2016 by ShatteredLady

[jasmineb]

I also glossed over the part of the original post where understand50 said that the circumstance he meant is what a wayward spouse IS doing everything they possibly can to have and express remorse and work to change. If THAT is the starting assumption, then that definitely, to me, changes the answer.

 

If a WS is voluntarily stepping up to the plate and taking care of THEIR side of things, and they have/are allowing the BS time to heal (which is part of doing what they should do), then I do believe at a certain time that thge BS needs to be all in and that includes putting away the ace in the hole.

 

And I do not believe that time frame is 5 years. I have read things that talk about it taking three to five years, but I do NOT think even the experts who say that mean three to five years of punishment and no self-reflection.

[seren]

I think most people would agree that not addressing faults in the marriage which might have led to a breakdown in the relationship is usually the fault of both the WS and BS, the affair is undoubtedly is owned solely by the WS. When D Day happens it is usually the end of the affair for the WS, but the start of processing the information that there was one by the BS. Most WS are glad the affair is over, some would love nothing better than to lift up a rug and sweep it all under leaving a huge bump in the relationship. The BS is usually blindsided, how many of us have said on here that we had asked if there was an affair, or even asked if we were still loved and told that no, there was nothing going on and that yes, we were still loved. For a lot of us we still had sex, romance, life was the same and not until we have the benefit of hindsight are we able to say, so it wasn't work, stress, a blip, rather than the earthquake of an affair.

 

It takes many, many months and years to process that the person we thought had our backs, that we had shared a life with, loved and believed in could and would hurt us so much. With hindsight we are all able to look back and maybe wish we had done things differently, but the hurt of betrayal by someone we loved with our all is beyond normality.

 

My H said he never thought I would or could be so hurt, I am a very tough person who has been through so much and come through, but the affair just about brought me to my knees. The loss of trust is enormous, at least it was. My H has been through hell and back, he continues to show remorse and still feels guilt. I have forgiven but not forgot and while I hold him when he hates himself and breaks down as he mourns the loss of his integrity, inside I know that there are times I need that too. Maybe he could put his hurt to one side for me, but I understand and his need is more, right now.

 

The BS has to deal with their pain the way that works for them, the WS should enable that. it isn't about martyrdom, it is about pain, some find ways to deal with that, others not so much. We all have our line in the sand, we all have our way in which we cope or not, for reconciliation to work there has to be reciprocity, both need to understand what is needed by the other and work on that. There are no hard and fast rules, no copybook answers. if the BS cannot be helped to cope or deal with how the A makes them feel about the WS or their marriage or relationship then it is doomed to fail, if the WS cannot deal with a situation of their making, then it is doomed to fail or the bump under the rug becomes to big to step over. The role of the BS is, in my opinion to do whatever they need to, if it is too much for the WS, then they should say so, not harbour resentment, not try to hide what happened, or to have expectations that life can be picked up as if nothing had happened.

 

I own any and all problems we had in our marriage and relationship prior to the affair, I do not own any part of the affair, not an iota. I try to work with H when his demons call and he feels so, so bad about the affair, what he feels is his loss by losing the absolute faith I had in him and PTSD (combat stress) when it all becomes a huge, huge problem for him. My responsibility during reconciliation is to know if I can or am prepared to do the work that is needed to help it work. I also have a responsibility to myself, to ensure I am healing and not apportioning any blame for the affair. I am glad to say we have come out the other side, I don't think anyone gets back the marriage pre affair, in our case we are happy despite it.

[OldRover]

Lady designer:

 

I agree. The sh*t sandwich often goes both ways. In your case it does, apparently.

 

At least you are aware of what you are doing and are able to be honest with yourself about it.

 

Still, I would encourage you to leave only when you feel ready. If and when or ever. You have a valid reason to not rush into a divorce, but as you note, you have given up and you are not wishing to make your marriage work anymore.

 

Divorce is not that simple, as you noted. Also why rush into divorce, when you have been miserable for so long. What difference will it make?

 

Obviously there are many people who are sort of trapped in terrible marriages because of kids or finances.

 

Regarding rewriting the marital history that someone else brought up: Sometimes neither the BS or WS rewrite the marital history.

 

That was how my marriage survived. Neither of us did that. We both accepted responsibility and we both willingly blamed ourselves for obvious preexisting issues.

 

That is the only logical and rational approach, IMO, if one truly loves their spouse and truly wants to make the marriage work.

 

But, I have seen situations where the BS rewrites the marital history to eliminate any contributions or faults that led to the failure of the marriage.

 

Suddenly, after the affair, the BS is perfect, a spotless white angel and the WS is a selfish, self absorbed dark devil. The BS insists beyond all rational sane logic that they did absolutely nothing wrong in the marriage.

 

Sometimes, too, the BS falsely claims the BS is rewriting the marital history, even if the WS had valid complaints that he/she tried to repeatedly address.

 

In those cases, the BS was blind to the issues plaguing the marriage and they still want to remain blind, perhaps in order to preserve the image of their own false perfection seared into their own minds.

 

Sometimes it IS the WS who rewrites the marital history, but not always.

 

In my experience it is just as often and perhaps too often the BS.

 

As an outsider looking in on other people's marriage I see this many times after an affair comes to light.

 

As an outsider, I can see the faults of both spouses. And, unless there is a personality disorder involved, typically, when there is an affair, there were failings that are obvious to both spouses.

 

I stay out of my friends marital issues, but that does not mean I am blind deaf and dumb to them. I see them, our mutual friends see them, their families see the issues.

 

Sometimes, too, its the BS that has the personality disorder by my observations and everyone in their friends circle was wondering when the other spouse was going to lose it.

 

Yet, that BS, who is PD by all accounts of friends and family, will insist that the unfaithful spouse is rewriting the marital history.

 

When a marriage is dysfunctional, if neither spouse has a Personality disorder, than BOTH spouses contributed to the dysfunction.

 

It is tough to admit fault, but when a BS refuses to accept any responsibility for the breakdown of the marriage, then that is obviously likely the ONE most obvious reason the WS had an affair.

 

That reason being that the faithful spouse refuses to see their own faults or admit there is a problem.

 

Liam1,

 

Very good post and it clearly points out that there can be fault with any one. The BS isn't always innocent, and, at time, is the cause of the affair. I know, a lot will disagree, but I've seen situations where the BS was truly the cause of the break up of the marriage and the affair. Not always, but does happen.

 

The point is that in any reconciliation, it really takes both to make it work. The BS can't sit back with the attitude that they did nothing wrong, and they too, much change to make it work.

 

Now, there are rare cases when the BS really did do nothing, and the WS was just a scumbag looking for a fling. In that case, there is no salvation for the marriage and better off with divorce.

 

And you're also right about the affair not being the "nuke".... the nuke is clearly the divorce.

[Midwestmissy]

My wh told me everything in our marriage was my fault before commencing his affair. So while he was cultivating that relationship, I was at a life coach, shrink, volunteering, got my first job in 15 yrs. he was meeting her in hotel rooms, coming home presenting as together and happy, while I vomited on the shower floor curled up in a ball because I was fixing myself and nothing was improving. After seeing a shrink, I came home and told him what I'd been told: lady, you don't need a shrink you need a marriage counsellor. He looked at me with absolutely no emotion and texted the mow. He arranged mc to throw me off the trail, and lied for $300/hr. His first action after every session was to text or call the mow. Because work.

 

The problem was he had been projecting his crap on me for a few years and viewed himself as used, controlled and betrayed. He was none of those things, I was. (He sees all this now btw). Point is he was not happy with himself at all, and rather than deal with the hard facts, he chose to view himself as a victim and reward himself with an affair. It didn't end well, obvs.

 

My point is that all I did for 2 years was fix me, look hard at my failings and work on the marriage. The affair was around 6 months, plus another 18 months of lying. I never gave up on the marriage, never. I never stopped loving him. So now I'm tired. I've been in an endurance race for 3 yrs (12 months since he told me the whole truth and fired her). She was in my life peripherally, on the caller ID every day, invited to family functions by other family members who were unaware. He was so afraid of consequences negatively impacting him, he never protected me from that humiliation. She was a toxic mess trying to edge me out - I had a bad vibe, but no clue. I went thru hell. I was told I was unhinged. I just tried harder. So embarrassing.

 

Right now I just want him to do the work. I proved myself and my commitment for 28 years, no break for a side dish. No disappearing for hours with kids calling him to ask where I was or what's for dinner. Not once. I just need to see if he's worthy. The problem was in him and his fear of conflict or expressing emotions. He lied, I begged for honest answers and jumped through hoops.

 

I'm exhausted. I've handed him the baton.

[ShatteredLady]

I completely agree that 'most times' there is something wrong in the M for an A to happen....

 

Many here seem convinced that that statement means that the bs is at fault for the 'something wrong'....or BOTH the H & W are responsible for the state of the marriage & therefore responsible for the affair.

 

In my experience, many times what's wrong is the WS is going through a bad patch but NOT necessarily because of the bs. Perception is everything. My H started this by saying "Our former MAGICAL life was over" but what had actually changed with me, our family, our home, our life? What had changed was the way HE was feeling about HIMSELF. His perception changed only when the opportunity with the OW came.

 

I didn't make my H loose his job. I didn't make his friends have great turns in their careers making him feel worse. I didn't make him start to go grey or put on weight. I didn't make him take a job that he hates & makes him feel bad about himself. I didn't make him think his friend was divorced again & AGAIN partying & having sex with lots of women! It's not my fault that my H hasn't had lots of different gf's & lovers making him jealous of other men & susceptible to attention from women.

 

We all go through stages in life where we're not feeling good about ourselves or just feel bored, like life is passing us by. If we analyse ANY person we know well we can find fault with them. That's why they say "Love is blind". We all feel it at times but we don't all have affairs!!! Some of us TALK about what's bothering us.

[katielee]

Love your post SL, in most cases it's the WS who isn't GIVING enough in the marriage. I'm calling myself out on that.

[Mrs. John Adams]

Liam1,

 

Very good post and it clearly points out that there can be fault with any one. The BS isn't always innocent, and, at time, is the cause of the affair. I know, a lot will disagree, but I've seen situations where the BS was truly the cause of the break up of the marriage and the affair. Not always, but does happen.

 

The point is that in any reconciliation, it really takes both to make it work. The BS can't sit back with the attitude that they did nothing wrong, and they too, much change to make it work.

 

Now, there are rare cases when the BS really did do nothing, and the WS was just a scumbag looking for a fling. In that case, there is no salvation for the marriage and better off with divorce.

 

And you're also right about the affair not being the "nuke".... the nuke is clearly the divorce.

 

Fault certainly can be blamed on both for the destruction of a marriage.....beyond any shadow of a doubt.

 

But an affair...is absolutely positively the fault of the wayward spouse. They alone make the choice to have an affair ...it is NEVER the right choice. I don't care what the betrayed spouse did pre affair......the CHOICE to SCREW another person is solely on the Wayward.

 

I am tired of everyone dancing around this subject to justify WHY they chose to have sex with someone else.

 

There is NO REASON to choose to have sex with someone else without asking permission first.

 

If you ask your spouse first....and they say go for it...then go ahead. But if you go behind your spouses back to have sex with another person....REGARDLESS of why.....it is WRONG.

[elaine567]

I am tired of everyone dancing around this subject to justify WHY they chose to have sex with someone else.

 

I agree, if you love sex then leave, divorce, find someone else who loves sex too, do not sneak around behind your spouse's back and have sex with some other person.

If your wife/husband is making your life hell, dump them or take up fishing, join a choir, feed the homeless, do not sneak around behind your spouse's back and have sex with some other person.

 

Too many as you say "justify" and take no responsibility for the fact they just got the opportunity presented to them and they wanted it.

Blame shifting abounds.

[Mrs. John Adams]

For example.....lets say your spouse denies you sex. You simply say to your spouse...look...I need sex....do you mind if I find it elsewhere?

 

Your spouse may say...hey...I don't care what you do...just don't tell me....or Go ahead and have sex with others...but please only see a prostitute and use protection.....or

 

HELL NO you cannot have sex with someone else....and if you do...we are finished!

 

Now...the cards are all on the table....no one is sneaking ...or lying whether bold faced or by omission.

 

But when one spouse chooses to secretly have sex with someone else....without permission.....it is adultery...and the responsibility of the action lies solely on the wayward.

 

REGARDLESS of the pre affair condition of the marriage.