Spending your life with someone ...isn't the same as marriage.

[sambolini]

I'm going to assume you're against children also. Once born, they have a similar claim on your assets.

 

Regardless, sad that asset protection would be one's primary focus in relationships...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

False. Child support does not go into a trust in that child's name. It goes to the mother in her name. That is a very important distinction. It is not the child who has the claim, it's the mother. If it were the child who has the claim, then I'd have a say in how the money I pay is spent. But of course, I don't.

 

It's sad that society has forced us into this position, but it is what it is. I don't feel I'm missing out on anything. In fact, I have the money and assets to do what I want, when I want. I'd rather be financially solvent and single than married and poor.

 

As I said before, any society that gives cheating wives majority time with the children and awards her child support and calls that justice is not a society in which I want to be married. That completely disincentivizes me from doing so. And I'm okay with it.

[Mr. Lucky]

False. Child support does not go into a trust in that child's name. It goes to the mother in her name. That is a very important distinction. It is not the child who has the claim, it's the mother. If it were the child who has the claim, then I'd have a say in how the money I pay is spent. But of course, I don't.

 

Not every relationship participant is a Dad divorced from a bitter marriage begrudgingly paying support. Sorry it didn't work for you but doesn't make your situation - or concerns - universal...

 

Mr. Lucky

[MJJean]

Let me settle the MGTOW debate.

 

If a man doesn't want to marry and share his assets with a woman, he should not get married and make sure his partners are quite clear on that and in agreement.

 

The End.

 

P.S. Men who complain about paying child support aren't likely to get a lot of sympathy.

[Lois_Griffin]

And I completely reject the notion that men are supposed to get married "because of the children". If marriage is better for kids, then perhaps we should be talking about how women initiate 75% of all divorces, thereby breaking up the family unit of which the children are a part.

That's because most men don't have the GUTS to do it themselves.

 

You love quoting stats but fail to realize the facts behind them. Most men won't initiate a divorce because they don't want to look like a failure - even if the divorce is due to their own shortcomings in the marriage (cheating, gambling, alcoholism, and the list goes on).

 

Most let the woman do it.

 

My first husband was the biggest serial cheater on the planet. I left him. I was the one who had to divorce HIM because he would have stayed married - and cheating - forever. He wasn't going to be the one to initiate a divorce so I had to.

 

You think my situation is unique? Hardly. There are PLENTY of women who had to do the same thing. Jeez.

[sambolini]

That's because most men don't have the GUTS to do it themselves.

 

You love quoting stats but fail to realize the facts behind them. Most men won't initiate a divorce because they don't want to look like a failure - even if the divorce is due to their own shortcomings in the marriage (cheating, gambling, alcoholism, and the list goes on).

 

Most let the woman do it.

 

My first husband was the biggest serial cheater on the planet. I left him. I was the one who had to divorce HIM because he would have stayed married - and cheating - forever. He wasn't going to be the one to initiate a divorce so I had to.

 

You think my situation is unique? Hardly. There are PLENTY of women who had to do the same thing. Jeez.

 

Please provide stats to back up your assertion.

[sambolini]

Not every relationship participant is a Dad divorced from a bitter marriage begrudgingly paying support. Sorry it didn't work for you but doesn't make your situation - or concerns - universal...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

No, but it doesn't invalidate them either. And you haven't provided any counter argument to my argument that what society deems as justice in family court is wrong.

 

You're arguing from an emotional perspective. Strip all emotion out if it and answer the question: do you believe justice has been applied appropriately when courts award a cheating wife with the majority of time with children and child support?

[sambolini]

P.S. Men who complain about paying child support aren't likely to get a lot of sympathy.

 

Which is why more men are going MGTOW. We don't ask for, nor need, your sympathy. It's a logical choice based on this prevalent attitude.

 

 

<< Moderator note: This post marks the last post from the move from the original thread. ~6 >>

Edited January 27, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Mr. Lucky]

You're arguing from an emotional perspective. Strip all emotion out if it and answer the question: do you believe justice has been applied appropriately when courts award a cheating wife with the majority of time with children and child support?

 

Strip all the emotion from an assessment of the relationship I have with my wife?

 

I think we've just identified the problem...

 

Mr. Lucky

[BlueIris]

Why? What in the world does one thing have to do with the other?

 

I can tell you why I think so- because I think that marriage is different from living together because of the formality of the commitment. I believe that formal commitment makes a difference to most people. While it isn't a guarantee of lifetime marriage, it changes the nature of the commitment.

 

There are people who can and do make a lifetime commitment and marriage would make no difference to them. That's great. There are people who marry and divorce- great with me, too.

 

But young kids are my sticking point. I believe that the formality of the commitment is a check against hastily or thoughtlessly bringing people into your home to care for your children and for your children to attach to and depend upon. I'm sure that there are people who are cautious and protective of their kids before bringing someone in to live with them, but the subject of this discussion wasn't- in my opinion.

[Mr. Lucky]

do you believe justice has been applied appropriately when courts award a cheating wife with the majority of time with children and child support?

 

Since you seem to be focused on the cheating aspect, is that the qualifier you're concerned about?

 

You're OK with a faithful wife, upon divorcing, being awarded "the majority of time with children and child support"?

 

Mr. Lucky

[T-16bullseyeWompRat]

Since you seem to be focused on the cheating aspect, is that the qualifier you're concerned about?

 

You're OK with a faithful wife, upon divorcing, being awarded "the majority of time with children and child support"?

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Or better yet if the husband is the unfaithful one, does that change your tune? It's more common for men to cheat after all.

 

Also idk if I should be flattered by this thread title or not.

[wmacbride]

I'm MGTOW. And I find your shaming tactics amusing, if not completely ineffectual.

 

It's not marriage that is the issue. It's divorce. And since 50% of all marriages end in divorce, and 75% of all divorces are initiated by women, and 97% of all alimony cases are paid by men...well, that paints a strong argument for divorce culture among western women.

 

It's a simple cost/benefit analysis. And marriage often fails to pass that analysis.

 

Marriage provides tangible benefits for women, but hardly any tangible benefits for men. We get nothing out of it, and in fact lose our children, assets, and money. That's what happened to me in my divorce.

 

Your information is insufficient to prove marriage is overall beneficial and a wise choice to make for men.

 

 

Sounds like you had a bad experience, but an awful lot of women aren't like that, and many times, it's the husband who cheats.

 

If you don't want to get married, fine, then don't. You are making the choice that is right for you, and you shouldn't have to answer to anyone for that.

 

My issue with men like you is that you extrapolate from our own bad experience and assume all women are like that- or at least the majority.

 

Something a lot of men don't realize ( and sure don't like to hear) is that in many, many MANY marriages, it's the wife who does the heavy lifting. In these types of marriages, the man, if he works, reduces the relationship down to a series of transactions. It becomes " I make more- if he does indeed have the higher income- so therefore i should sit on my ass while my wife does whatever I thinks she needs to do to make up the difference". It doesn't matter if his job is working all day testing pillows by sitting on them and his wife is working hard all day as a bricklayer, he'd still feel entitled.

 

I've been married a long time, and we've had our share of ups and downs. I admit that my husband was the"transnational balance type", and viewed his work as harder and felt entitled to loll around. When I got sick as was in the hospital, he had his work hours shortened and when eh wasn't working, he was taking care of the house and kids.

 

I'll tell you one thing, I got a big bouquet of flowers when I came home and an apology after he saw how much he had been expecting of me and how unfair it was.

 

In a good marriage you can love , learn and grow. That time, it was his turn.

[wmacbride]

Women divorce men for two reasons: assets and hypergamy. No fault divorce allows them to get away with it.

 

97% of all alimony cases are paid by men. They literally cash out.

 

what about the women who divorce because they are being cheated on, their husband abuses her, or he's just a plain old azzhat?

 

Suppose you think all of those are the wife's fault too?

[wmacbride]

No sympathy for single OW. They voluntarily make that choice the vast majority of the time. If you choose to become sexual with a married man, you face the consequences of that choice.

 

The flaw in your argument is that, at the absolute most, cheating husbands account for only 25% of all divorces. Are they wrong? Absolutely. But the numbers aren't supporting your argument.

 

And if we're using this site as evidence, take a look at the Infidelity forum. It's overwhelmingly populated with BH's.

 

BW here who has never cheated, and who's H had a brief A.

 

No offense, but it sounds like you really had a rough time of things, but please don't assume all women are like your ex wife or all man are being taken advantage of.

 

Think of it like this. When my H cheated, I was a stay at home mom by both of our choice and because it made financial sense ( we have kids who have special needs and it would ave cost more to get full time specialized care for them). When he cheated, it hurt so badly - I expect you know what that feels like- how do you put a dollar value on that feeling? What did he take away from me? Should I be compensated for that?

[wmacbride]

No, but it doesn't invalidate them either. And you haven't provided any counter argument to my argument that what society deems as justice in family court is wrong.

 

You're arguing from an emotional perspective. Strip all emotion out if it and answer the question: do you believe justice has been applied appropriately when courts award a cheating wife with the majority of time with children and child support?

 

 

turn it around then.

What if the wife wants a divorce because her husband is the one who is cheating. What then? Should she forgo child support and time with her child because she's the one who wanted the divorce because she couldn't be with him anymore? Should she have to choose between time with her child and staying with her cheating husband?

 

what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Edited January 27, 2016 by wmacbride

[pteromom]

I had no idea that MGTOW was a "thing". Wow, learn something new every day. At least there is a convenient box to sort these people into.

 

The importance of marriage doesn't matter to anyone but the people who are (or aren't) getting married. If someone hates marriage, they don't have to marry. If someone insists on marriage as a set goal, they have a right to look for that.

 

You just have to find someone who feels the same way you do. That's all.

[TX-SC]

Marriage was my eventual goal from an early age. I had no desire to cohabitate and no desire to start a family until I was married. I dated a few girls for somewhat long term relationships. However, once I found the right person for me, I asked her to marry me. I just would not do the family thing without getting married.

[MJJean]

Which is why more men are going MGTOW. We don't ask for, nor need, your sympathy. It's a logical choice based on this prevalent attitude.

 

 

<< Moderator note: This post marks the last post from the move from the original thread. ~6 >>

 

Well, don't have sex then! In case you were unaware, sex makes babies and birth control does have a failure rate. Once the baby is conceived, the decision is entirely in the hands of the woman carrying it. Meaning, you could end up paying her child support for 18+ years.

 

See, if MGTOW is about independent men keeping themselves from having to pay $$ to women, they really need to take on a celibacy pledge. If they aren't celibate, they're not going their own way. They're just using women for sex while avoiding the responsibilities and obligations of marriage while praying they don't knock anyone up. Which is the same thing teenagers, frat boys, and commitment phobes do.

[dreamingoftigers]

I know many divorced men......my brother is one ...and none have lost kids through divorce.

TBH .... yes he has had to spend more..paying the mortgage till kids go college..... and his ex gets a higher proportion of the house when the time comes.......but no more. It'

 

You continue to work on the principle that the man is a higher earner ALL THE TIME. This simply isn't true. Many women have had to pay alimony to a cheating spouse in divorce. Your husband cheats and you're paying him ....it sucks either way.

 

Post-Betrayal, if I had decided to divorce, I would have had to support him.

 

As much as I wasn't a fan of that, I actually held hope for the future that I might marry again, to someone that understood the pains of betrayal and how a relationship was something precious that we both needed to work at.

 

I've never had a man support me. In fact I married a homeless man (I know, I know). I didn't pick him because he had the nicest backpack, he had a big heart.

 

We've been married a decade and he's a great Dad to our daughter.

[clia]

It's not marriage that is the issue. It's divorce. And since 50% of all marriages end in divorce, and 75% of all divorces are initiated by women, and 97% of all alimony cases are paid by men...well, that paints a strong argument for divorce culture among western women.

 

It's a simple cost/benefit analysis. And marriage often fails to pass that analysis.

 

Marriage provides tangible benefits for women, but hardly any tangible benefits for men. We get nothing out of it, and in fact lose our children, assets, and money. That's what happened to me in my divorce.

 

Your information is insufficient to prove marriage is overall beneficial and a wise choice to make for men.

 

The WSJ article you cited above for the 97% alimony figure is nearly 7 years old. Do you have anything more recent? As lucy pointed out above, the article stated that those numbers were changing and are largely the result of lower earning power by women in the past. In fact, the entire article is directed to the changing alimony laws.

 

Your assertion that men get nothing out of marriage is based on what? Here's an article based on recent study about why women initiate 69% (not 75%) of divorces:

 

Why Women Initiate More Divorces | Men's Health

 

In the study, women accounted for the breakups of 69 percent of the marriages that ended in divorce. They also reported much lower levels of marital bliss than men did.

 

The problem, then, seems specific to marriage, and may partly be because women aren’t as well-served by the institution as men are, says study author Michael Rosenfeld, Ph.D., an associate professor of sociology at Stanford University. “Men enjoy some crucial privileges within marriage that makes them, on average, more satisfied with marriage than their wives,” he says.

 

Your assertion that somehow there is a "divorce culture" among women simply does not take into account all of the reasons why a woman might be unhappy in a marriage, and ignores that the husband might be sitting on his butt ignoring his wife's unhappiness.

[Lois_Griffin]

Your assertion that men get nothing out of marriage is based on what? Here's an article based on recent study about why women initiate 69% (not 75%) of divorces:

 

Why Women Initiate More Divorces | Men's Health

 

I read that article and agree with the fact that women do most of the heavy lifting - they always have. Being a workhorse is hardly bliss.

 

I've always maintained and stand by my belief that women work MUCH harder than men in marriage and laugh every time I see that overused nonsensical comment from the MGTOW Bitter Brigade about how 'only women benefit from marriage.'

 

My ass.

[carhill]

In a healthy relationship, or marriage, the labor is one of love.

 

For a particular couple, their life spent together, for them, is their union, regardless of any legal term applied. They decide the value of their union. Sure, for some, they opt for the legal partnership anointed by society as the 'official' union of marriage. Others don't.

 

Either way, the union is only has healthy and productive as its members choose it to be.

 

As long as society, religion and law, continue to reward marriage, people will get married. If that all went away tomorrow, people would still form unions and life would go on. I doubt that will ever happen, or might when we evolve beyond the need/desire/avarice surrounding 'stuff'. Nah, never.

[Rockdad]

My opinion on marriage has been radically altered and admittedly skewed. I have thought about this very subject as I am a devoted dad that raised 3 sons now all in their 20's looking to me for advice about it.

 

I was a successful business owner married to an abusive woman. I eventually cheated and now married to one very pissed off abusive woman. She had no intention of divorce and when I couldn't take it anymore and wanted to leave blackmailed me with my 3 little boys.

 

In the end she got 100% of all assets, I pay 100% of all debts, I had to buy my business back from her, she got legal physical custody of the kids plus a handsome monthly check and I pay the bulk of her housing and kids expenses. This continued for the next 17 yrs.

 

Why such the bad hosing? I cheated plus the courts look favorably to the mother and hang on if you own a business. The reason I signed off to all this if I wanted to be a real dad. I was being charged as an unfit parent and I had to buy my kids back. When I did that I was now a wonderful father and she was more than happy and I had them 5 days a week.

 

I just can't get as passionate as many of the woman posters in this thread about the absolute need of marriage and vows.

[MightyPen]

Interesting conversation (with all its twist and turns!)

 

To me, the biggest issue with marriage is that I don't believe there's any scientific consensus that humans are instinctively inclined to be monogamous. Social, yes. Monogamous, no. So marriage, or any life-long commitment, will have a lot of tension with our instinctive urges. Especially with men...

 

And I guess the following question is a "third rail" type of question?:

 

Who among us, men and women included, think that men aren't instinctively wired with a base desire to screw pretty much any good-looking woman he sees?

 

If you say, "Yeah that sounds about right," then how do you reconcile that basic urge with expecting men to be content with the same woman for 30, 40 or 50 years?

 

It's a legitimate question.

[SoleMate]

Overall, I support MGTOW doing whatever they want to do with their lives. And WGTOW as well. However, I do need to counter one misstatement:

75% of all divorces are filed by women......that paints a strong argument for divorce culture among western women....

You're implying that when a woman files for divorce, she is responsible for a breakdown of the marriage. That is not so. There seems to be little correlation between one party being objectively responsible for marriage breakdown, and that same party filing. If anything, anecdotes tend to suggest the opposite: it is more often the NON-filer who abandoned, cheated, used drugs, or committed physical or emotional abuse, and the filer is just filing in self-defense. Statistics are hard to come by, but I did just find this interesting report from Australia: https://www.dss.gov.au/about-the-department/publications-articles/research-publications/social-policy-research-paper-series/number-35-marriage-breakdown-in-australia-social-correlates-gender-and-initiator-status?HTML#sec5 I've just quickly glanced at it, and did see one interesting tidbit: For every marriage ending in divorce, there is not even agreement among couples as to whether it was husband-, wife-, or jointly-initiated! I recommend reviewing the report to see if they differentiate marital breakdown causation from divorce filing.

 

For jointly-initiated divorces, some one individual still has to file the petition. Usually a couple has one person who is more proactive and/or better at paperwork and getting things done, and that person will likely be the filer. Does not imply responsibility for marital breakdown.