Spending your life with someone ...isn't the same as marriage.

January 25, 2016

<< Moderator note: The following posts have been moved from another thread and are being posted here to retain the content. There may be some discontinuity as there remains responses to deleted posts and references to the OP, which in this case is the OP of the other thread.

Here is the original thread from which they were deleted: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/567078-gf-s-pressure-propose-what-do-i-do

>>

Spending your life with someone ...isn't the same as marriage. If my husband said he wanted to spend his life with me...without marriage..I'd have left him on the spot. It's against my personal belief to cohabit eternally. Maybe if I was divorced I'd think differently..but not if I didn't have kids and it was a first marriage.

I would not be happy just cohabiting and many other women feel this way too.

Edited January 27, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

January 26, 2016

Marriage is not a necessity and does not make a relatio ship greater. There can also be tremendous financial and legal risk, as it is a financial contract.

January 26, 2016

Spending your life with someone ...isn't the same as marriage. If my husband said he wanted to spend his life with me...without marriage..I'd have left him on the spot. It's against my personal belief to cohabit eternally. Maybe if I was divorced I'd think differently..but not if I didn't have kids and it was a first marriage.

I would not be happy just cohabiting and many other women feel this way too.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. Marriage shouldn't change and healthy and happy relationship in any way. Demanding it or making it a requirement makes absolutely no sense.

Edited January 27, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

January 26, 2016

Marriage shouldn't change and healthy and happy relationship in any way. Demanding it or making it a requirement makes absolutely no sense.

Why does someone's personal preference make no sense? It does to them.

January 26, 2016

Why does someone's personal preference make no sense? It does to them.

I thought adding "to me" at the end would be redundant because it is implied.

January 26, 2016

I thought adding "to me" at the end would be redundant because it is implied.

Some people want to be married before they start a family and even if they don't want children would want to someday be married. I don't know why you'd question the sense in that.

It's called a lifelong commitment.

January 26, 2016

You are of course entitled to your opinion. Marriage shouldn't change and healthy and happy relationship in any way. Demanding it or making it a requirement makes absolutely no sense.

I had no desire to have children out of marriage and I had no desire to be a lifelong GF. I can't see how this doesn't make sense.

Everyone has a choice. I would NEVER demand marriage...but I'd move on to find what I want with someone else....if my partner didn't want marriage or was unsure.

If a woman comes to LS saying she wants marriage...and BF doesn't...they are advised to end it.

If a guy comes here and GF wants marriage and he doesn't..same advice...end it.

Edited January 27, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
clean up ~6

January 26, 2016

Someone needs to be rewarded for enjoying a relationship with someone with kids? What on earth? And 10k vacations wouldn't be enough of a reward? What in the world? What does that even mean.

Also, not everyone has archaic notions of cohabitation and necessity of marriage. Marriage is simply a financial contract where the wealthier gifts over half of everything they have, and if you end the relationship, you need to spend time, money, and emotional entanglement in court for potentially long periods of time. Marriage should never change the nature of a relatio ship outside of these legal ramifications.

You sound like a man who either hates women or believes the MGTOW nonsense. I notice that men who are involved in the MGTOW nonsense tend to be guys that nobody wants a relationship with anyway, so they never have to worry about some "evil and greedy" woman marrying them and taking all of their money.

Most people realize that marriage is far more than just a financial contract. Children of married parents do far better in life because those who marry tend to be more educated and earn more money. Marriage also provides stability for children that can't be achieved by just shacking up. Contrary to myths the MGTOW movement tries to perpetuate, married men tend to be healthier and men benefit from marriage far more than women.

Bustle

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/insight-therapy/201510/is-marriage-worth-it-women

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/08/children-with-married-parents-are-better-off-but-marriage-isnt-the-reason-why/

Children raised by married parents 'are better behaved' - Telegraph

Here is some reading material. Every article that I have posted has links to the studies. Based on what you have posted, I think you're probably too arrogant to admit that you are wrong...especially since it is a woman who is exposing your ignorance and you have much animosity towards the opposite sex. Just as I can't take angry feminazis seriously because they hate men, I refuse to believe that woman haters are anything but irrational and hostile.

As for being rewarded for taking on a partner with kids when one has no children, the point isn't being rewarded or compensated for that choice. The issue is that many people simply would not take that path because of the hardships involved. Someone without kids who chooses to raise children which are not their own is clearly very special and unselfish.

Edited January 26, 2016 by BettyDraper

January 26, 2016

You are of course entitled to your opinion. Marriage shouldn't change and healthy and happy relationship in any way. Demanding it or making it a requirement makes absolutely no sense.

Marriage is how we make family.

It's also how we share investment in the relationship. It's win together or lose together. Right now, their relationship is unequal with her investing her energy in a home (not hers) with him and his kids. He's looking out primarily for himself and his kids, not her. If they were married, she's part of the family, and her interests are his interests (and vice versa).

Marriage would mean investing in her, and he's not sure he wants to do that. Meanwhile, she's investing in him and his family.

January 26, 2016

Most people realize that marriage is far more than just a financial contract. Children of married parents do far better in life because those who marry tend to be more educated and earn more money. Marriage also provides stability for children that can't be achieved by just shacking up. Contrary to myths the MGTOW movement tries to perpetuate, married men tend to be healthier and men benefit from marriage far more than women.

Then it really is a financial contract. Often, one partner handles the business/financial side. The other partner handles the home/family side. Both partners agree to split all the accrued benefits across the board, whether together or eventually separately.

It's folks that want to prioritize the $$$ contribution above all the other efforts that have trouble with the equation...

Mr. Lucky

January 26, 2016

You seem very bitter about women and marriage. Not everyone has to get married. It's just that your words about women show hate towards us as a group.

Relationships are about caring about your partner's happiness as well as your own. Unfortunately, some people are too selfish to realize that and then they wonder why nobody will stay with them.

Well I'm sorry you see it that way. I've been married quite a while. I don't know why my take on this is upsetting. Men and women both rush into marriage because they see it as a social stepping stone of life. Like that is just something you have to do to be happy or something. Then suddenly the marriage itself trumps the partner. People overlook GLARING issues and red flags so they can update their Facebook status essentially. Then turn around and wonder why their relationship is garbage and they are ready to file for divorce 6 months to a year in. Citing issues in the relationship that were always present but ignored so you could walk down a stupid isle for your friends and family.

Men do this all the time too. My brother in law did it for example. Turned 35 and his only goal is to get married. Well he did, their relationship is already rocky one year in. Go figure. I give them 2 more years tops. Sad to say, but that's how it goes when you rush into something like this.

If you have doubts then dont get married to them. Simple as that. If there is a timetable placed by man or woman, then the marriage is more important to them than the relationship itself. Nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise.

January 26, 2016

Marriage is not a necessity and does not make a relatio ship greater. There can also be tremendous financial and legal risk, as it is a financial contract.

A thousand times this.

Marriage only serves to make separate assets joints assets. It's function is purely financial.

OP, I too was cheated on by my ex wife and got hosed in divorce. My life is much better now, but I had to work my ass off to make it that way. There is no woman alive that could ever convince me to agree to marriage a second time. I have far more money and assets to lose, which is really why they want marriage in the first place.

I make it no secret that I will never marry again. I tell any woman I date that. Some are ok with it, some aren't. But it's not something I will ever compromise on.

It's about what you want. If you don't want to get married, then don't. I'm not out to provide a better life for anyone except my daughter, and I also clearly communicate that. Stick to your guns.

If she walks because of it, then let her go. She wasn't the one for you and valued what the institution of marriage can bring her more than you as a person.

I've eliminated so many women as potential partners by refusing to marry, and that's a good thing. When you make it clear that your assets are off the table and you're not interested in having any more kids, the women who stick around truly care about YOU and not just your utility value.

January 26, 2016

Well I'm sorry you see it that way. I've been married quite a while. I don't know why my take on this is upsetting. Men and women both rush into marriage because they see it as a social stepping stone of life. Like that is just something you have to do to be happy or something. Then suddenly the marriage itself trumps the partner. People overlook GLARING issues and red flags so they can update their Facebook status essentially. Then turn around and wonder why their relationship is garbage and they are ready to file for divorce 6 months to a year in. Citing issues in the relationship that were always present but ignored so you could walk down a stupid isle for your friends and family.

Men do this all the time too. My brother in law did it for example. Turned 35 and his only goal is to get married. Well he did, their relationship is already rocky one year in. Go figure. I give them 2 more years tops. Sad to say, but that's how it goes when you rush into something like this.

If you have doubts then dont get married to them. Simple as that. If there is a timetable placed by man or woman, then the marriage is more important to them than the relationship itself. Nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise.

YES! We need to stop rushing into marriage like this! I'll be the first to admit, I rushed. I had no reason to rush other than a pinterest board full of pretty things and the compulsive behavior of a 21 year old girl. I regret rushing. Instead of focusing on my relationship, paying attention to red flags, etc., I spent every single day of our relationship planning our wedding. Then when it was all over, I looked up and realized that I just married someone I hardly know. Marriage is (in a societal fashion) a contract. A legally and financially binding contract, that can be difficult to end. So, when in doubt, wait.

January 26, 2016

You sound like a man who either hates women or believes the MGTOW nonsense. I notice that men who are involved in the MGTOW nonsense tend to be guys that nobody wants a relationship with anyway, so they never have to worry about some "evil and greedy" woman marrying them and taking all of their money.

Most people realize that marriage is far more than just a financial contract. Children of married parents do far better in life because those who marry tend to be more educated and earn more money. Marriage also provides stability for children that can't be achieved by just shacking up. Contrary to myths the MGTOW movement tries to perpetuate, married men tend to be healthier and men benefit from marriage far more than women.

Bustle
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/insight-therapy/201510/is-marriage-worth-it-women
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/08/children-with-married-parents-are-better-off-but-marriage-isnt-the-reason-why/
Children raised by married parents 'are better behaved' - Telegraph

Here is some reading material. Every article that I have posted has links to the studies. Based on what you have posted, I think you're probably too arrogant to admit that you are wrong...especially since it is a woman who is exposing your ignorance and you have much animosity towards the opposite sex. Just as I can't take angry feminazis seriously because they hate men, I refuse to believe that woman haters are anything but irrational and hostile.

As for being rewarded for taking on a partner with kids when one has no children, the point isn't being rewarded or compensated for that choice. The issue is that many people simply would not take that path because of the hardships involved. Someone without kids who chooses to raise children which are not their own is clearly very special and unselfish.

I'm MGTOW. And I find your shaming tactics amusing, if not completely ineffectual.

It's not marriage that is the issue. It's divorce. And since 50% of all marriages end in divorce, and 75% of all divorces are initiated by women, and 97% of all alimony cases are paid by men...well, that paints a strong argument for divorce culture among western women.

It's a simple cost/benefit analysis. And marriage often fails to pass that analysis.

Marriage provides tangible benefits for women, but hardly any tangible benefits for men. We get nothing out of it, and in fact lose our children, assets, and money. That's what happened to me in my divorce.

Your information is insufficient to prove marriage is overall beneficial and a wise choice to make for men.

January 26, 2016

It's about what you want. If you don't want to get married, then don't. I'm not out to provide a better life for anyone except my daughter, and I also clearly communicate that. Stick to your guns.

If she walks because of it, then let her go. She wasn't the one for you and valued what the institution of marriage can bring her more than you as a person.

I obviously have a very different view of marriage, but how can a person be in a relationship without wanting to provide a better life for that person? I can't imagine how that would work. I want to make my H's life as great as possible with every fiber of my being.

So it is not necessarily valuing marriage over you, but maybe realizing they don't actually want a partner like you.

January 26, 2016

I obviously have a very different view of marriage, but how can a person be in a relationship without wanting to provide a better life for that person? I can't imagine how that would work. I want to make my H's life as great as possible with every fiber of my being.

So it is not necessarily valuing marriage over you, but maybe realizing they don't actually want a partner like you.

When I say provide, I mean gathering the resources necessary for that person's survival and lifestyle. I accept no responsibility for another grown person. They will earn their own money and provide for themselves.

Look at it this way. I don't need a woman to provide me anything. I have provided an excellent life for myself and my daughter. I don't need her money, or to cook for me, or to clean for me, or to raise my child. I do all of that on my own.

Any woman I would choose to partner with will be exactly the same.

I'm looking for a companion, not a mommy. Or a gold-digger.

January 26, 2016

When I say provide, I mean gathering the resources necessary for that person's survival and lifestyle. I accept no responsibility for another grown person. They will earn their own money and provide for themselves.

Look at it this way. I don't need a woman to provide me anything. I have provided an excellent life for myself and my daughter. I don't need her money, or to cook for me, or to clean for me, or to raise my child. I do all of that on my own.

Any woman I would choose to partner with will be exactly the same.

I'm looking for a companion, not a mommy. Or a gold-digger.

And again, many will realize that they simply don't want a partner like that. They want a partner, not a companion. A full partner, where each person is considered family and the care and support is mutual.

So when they break up, it isn't necessarily that they value marriage more than the person, but they are looking for a different type of person entirely.

January 26, 2016

And again, many will realize that they simply don't want a partner like that. They want a partner, not a companion. A full partner, where each person is considered family and the care and support is mutual.

So when they break up, it isn't necessarily that they value marriage more than the person, but they are looking for a different type of person entirely.

And this argument would apply if people didn't extol the supposed virtues of marriage over the disadvantages. Or that the people who don't follow your views are somehow wrong, bitter, unable to find a sex partner, etc.

It's fine to want different things. It's not fine to ridicule someone who doesn't fit into your box.

January 26, 2016

And this argument would apply if people didn't extol the supposed virtues of marriage over the disadvantages. Or that the people who don't follow your views are somehow wrong, bitter, unable to find a sex partner, etc.

It's fine to want different things. It's not fine to ridicule someone who doesn't fit into your box.

Right.

The OP said in his original post that he was angry about her valuing marriage over the relationship. To me, ha is misunderstanding her POV, and that is what I'm trying to explain. Her POV is different. It doesn't make it wrong or bitter or unloving.

January 26, 2016

A thousand times this.

Marriage only serves to make separate assets joints assets. It's function is purely financial.

OP, I too was cheated on by my ex wife and got hosed in divorce. My life is much better now, but I had to work my ass off to make it that way. There is no woman alive that could ever convince me to agree to marriage a second time. I have far more money and assets to lose, which is really why they want marriage in the first place.

I make it no secret that I will never marry again. I tell any woman I date that. Some are ok with it, some aren't. But it's not something I will ever compromise on.

It's about what you want. If you don't want to get married, then don't. I'm not out to provide a better life for anyone except my daughter, and I also clearly communicate that. Stick to your guns.

If she walks because of it, then let her go. She wasn't the one for you and valued what the institution of marriage can bring her more than you as a person.

I've eliminated so many women as potential partners by refusing to marry, and that's a good thing. When you make it clear that your assets are off the table and you're not interested in having any more kids, the women who stick around truly care about YOU and not just your utility value.

It's good that you make it clear from the get go...that way there's no deception or messing anyone around.

I think your comment about who want kids not sticking around is unfair. It's a woman's and man's right to want children. Doesn't make them bad for it and doesn't mean they want your assets. Just means you want different things in life.

Just as you've eliminated them... they've eliminated you. .... no point in flogging a dead horse.

For you and others who have been married and cheated on...your views are jaded. Not every woman cheats and if your wife didn't you wouldn't be so negative about it.

To say every woman just wants your assets is nonsense...what of those who marry poorer men?

I'm curious .......would you advise your daughter to be a lifelong GF?

January 26, 2016

And I completely reject the notion that men are supposed to get married "because of the children". If marriage is better for kids, then perhaps we should be talking about how women initiate 75% of all divorces, thereby breaking up the family unit of which the children are a part.

It's not my job to be a daddy to kids that aren't mine. Perhaps people should be pickier about those with whom they choose to procreate, instead of looking for someone else to care for your spawn. That's why I stopped with one kid. I got a vasectomy and I'm done.

There is no tangible incentive for a man to marry.

January 26, 2016

It's notible benefits for women, but hardly any tangible benefits for men. We get nothing out of it, and in fact lose our children, assets, and money. That's what happened to me in my divorce.

.

I know many divorced men......my brother is one ...and none have lost kids through divorce.

TBH .... yes he has had to spend more..paying the mortgage till kids go college..... and his ex gets a higher proportion of the house when the time comes.......but no more. It'

You continue to work on the principle that the man is a higher earner ALL THE TIME. This simply isn't true. Many women have had to pay alimony to a cheating spouse in divorce. Your husband cheats and you're paying him ....it sucks either way.

January 26, 2016

It's good that you make it clear from the get go...that way there's no deception or messing anyone around.

I think your comment about who want kids not sticking around is unfair. It's a woman's and man's right to want children. Doesn't make them bad for it and doesn't mean they want your assets. Just means you want different things in life.

Just as you've eliminated them... they've eliminated you. .... no point in flogging a dead horse.
For you and others who have been married and cheated on...your views are jaded. Not every woman cheats and if your wife didn't you wouldn't be so negative about it.

To say every woman just wants your assets is nonsense...what of those who marry poorer men?

I'm curious .......would you advise your daughter to be a lifelong GF?

As I've stated, 75% of all divorces are filed by women and 97% of all alimony cases are paid by men. Those numbers are marriage prohibitive. Any society that gives a cheating wife the majority of time with their children and awards her with child support and calls that justice is not a society in which I want to be married.

I fail to see how that concept is revolutionary. Seems like common sense to me.

I tell my daughter that it's her responsibility to care for herself when she grows up. It's not a man's job to provide for her, and that she has no claim to something that which she did not help earn. Whether she gets married or not is entirely her choice. She knows I will never marry again, but that's my choice. She can choose a different path if she wants. But I am raising her with the expectation that her happiness is her responsibility, that she needs to work and earn her place in this world, just like I do. So if she gets married, she'll be able to care for herself and earn just as (or more) than her husband.

January 26, 2016

And I completely reject the notion that men are supposed to get married "because of the children". If marriage is better for kids, then perhaps we should be talking about how women initiate 75% of all divorces, thereby breaking up the family unit of which the children are a part.

It's not my job to be a daddy to kids that aren't mine. Perhaps people should be pickier about those with whom they choose to procreate, instead of looking for someone else to care for your spawn. That's why I stopped with one kid. I got a vasectomy and I'm done.

There is no tangible incentive for a man to marry.

Well, isn't it like 75% of men who admit they would cheat if they thought they could get away with it? How many of them actually cheat? Probably a good number.

Also men go for reconciliation far more then women, as it was like 50% of women that would cheat if they thought they could. So 1 in 3 men vs 1 in 5 women chose to try and reconcile after infidelity.

Stats are telling for your argument, but if you provide all the stats, you can see why women divorce more then men. I personally find the 1 in 3 a sad sad stat that tells of the weakness of men IMO. That there are that many men who would stay with some cheating whore is pretty sad to me.

January 26, 2016

I know many divorced men......my brother is one ...and none have lost kids through divorce.
TBH .... yes he has had to spend more..paying the mortgage till kids go college..... and his ex gets a higher proportion of the house when the time comes.......but no more. It'

You continue to work on the principle that the man is a higher earner ALL THE TIME. This simply isn't true. Many women have had to pay alimony to a cheating spouse in divorce. Your husband cheats and you're paying him ....it sucks either way.

Men pay 97% of all alimony cases.

The New Art of Alimony - WSJ

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