So Now I'm a Detective....

[dichotomy]

Not saying couples therapy would not be a wise choice..but only after you know the truth.

 

I would say most (not all) cheaters will deny deny deny if confronted early. They will also take the affair more underground. Most of the stories here on L.S. are exactly this way. Her husband has already done a good job of this with that one nasty text to an ex.

 

Problem for OP is she has no hard evidence. Even IF she paid 15 bucks and found out that "read to me" text number was some woman from his office or something - what would that prove for sure? Even if it was his ex GF - he could make up a story about why he called. She needs clear emails, texts, voice recording, or actually finding him with a woman.

[SJS]

Hmmm I'll have to check into spydialer. I'm afraid to call just yet, Idon't want anyone to be on high alert.

Honestly, if you're to this point, who cares if they're on high alert? *67 still blocks your number before you dial, use that. Spydialer is a website that dials the number straight to voicemail and then plays the greeting.

[uneek74]

If both partners want to make the marriage work counseling is a good option. However, if one or both are still hiding, spying, snooping and the like, counseling is not going to do one thing for the relationship. It will be a huge waste of time and money. I see post after post that recommend the couple or person go to counseling or even more horrible to encourage them to buy spyware, voice recorders and other crazy things. If you are going to live like this, why bother staying in a dead relationship. This behavior continues to do damage to an already fragile relationship. In order to get something out of counseling, you have to be completely truthful to get to the bottom of the issues.

 

 

Some of the advice here make me cringe.

[hippychick3]

From the way I read it, he didn't fess up to anything his wife couldn't prove and he made excuses for those actions instead of accepting responsibility or demonstrating real remorse.

 

And why should a couple go to counseling just because they have children together? If infidelity is a dealbreaker, having kids and a counselor won't change that.

 

 

I understood that the first 2 incidents were proven and now there is a 3rd incident that she hasn't confronted him with yet. Regardless of that...

 

I didn't say they should go to counseling if they have kids. I said it should be a CONSIDERATION if they have kids...as in, consider whether or not to go this route rather than dismiss it without considering it.

 

If infidelity is a dealbreaker and the cheater doesn't take full responsibility, counseling obviously would not be a good idea (as I DID say above).

 

Infidelity would be a dealbreaker for me personally...one strike and you're out. So when I, personally, am considering counseling in this scenario, I would not bother. However, the OP has accepted his questionable behavior in the past and may be willing give him another chance if he were to take responsibility and go to counseling.

[hippychick3]

If both partners want to make the marriage work counseling is a good option. However, if one or both are still hiding, spying, snooping and the like, counseling is not going to do one thing for the relationship. It will be a huge waste of time and money. I see post after post that recommend the couple or person go to counseling or even more horrible to encourage them to buy spyware, voice recorders and other crazy things. If you are going to live like this, why bother staying in a dead relationship. This behavior continues to do damage to an already fragile relationship. In order to get something out of counseling, you have to be completely truthful to get to the bottom of the issues.

 

 

Some of the advice here make me cringe.

 

Right...anyone that has to resort to spyware should not even be in the relationship anymore. Trust is gone.

[dichotomy]

I can only add this personal story to all this - my snooping helped me save my marriage, my wife's mental and spiritual health, and my kids well being. Without me obtaining some key truths and details the full story (or 80% of it) would not have come out - and I could not have made an informed choice and we could not have entered therapy and I could not have helped her grow past this unhealthy phase and time. Our marriage is now stronger and better than ever after all these years but it was hard at first. So in hindsight it was the right path. But yes there was a lasting cost and a loss to me and the marriage .. that some would not have wanted to accept.

 

I guess OP has to make up her mind what course she takes from here based on the different next steps people are advising.

 

This kind of story is posted here all the time -dDay - a small or large discovery (or a suspicion) and then what should I do ?. Many different paths given as advice.

 

I only advise getting as much information as possible - before making a major life choice for yourself, your spouse, and your kids.

Edited January 24, 2016 by dichotomy

[flowergirl14]

This could be a different woman and thats why you dont recognize the phone #. More than likely he moved from one ap to the next. Honestly, for a serial cheater or any cheater not remorseful...marriage counseling is a waste of time. You can want him to be honest, truthful, and faithful but if he doesnt then you are wasting your time. As for reading to him, yes Ive heard of this a few times and a lot worse. The smoke was seeing the texts a year ago now there is fire. Its hard to believe what he is capable of but start believing because he isnt who you think he is.

[dreamingoftigers]

Right...anyone that has to resort to spyware should not even be in the relationship anymore. Trust is gone.

 

I always find this argument ridiculous.

 

So the second there is an suspicion, we better break up and destroy the kid's family?

 

That's overkill.

[hippychick3]

I always find this argument ridiculous.

 

So the second there is an suspicion, we better break up and destroy the kid's family?

 

That's overkill.

 

No. The second there is suspicion, there should be communication. If there are children involved, intensive counseling should be considered. Resorting to spyware is (for the most part...apparently there are exceptions) overkill. If you find nothing, the person being spied on will be resentful of not being trusted and if you find something, then trust is gone. Either way leads to lack of trust by one or both parties. I don't see how a relationship could be successful without this trust.

 

I have personal experience with this. My ex was very possessive and controlling. He used spyware on me for a year, becoming obsessed with finding something and found...NOTHING. But, guess what. That lack of trust destroyed our relationship. I could never get past this and in addition to other problems in the marriage, this killed the relationship.

[MJJean]

No. The second there is suspicion, there should be communication. If there are children involved, intensive counseling should be considered. Resorting to spyware is (for the most part...apparently there are exceptions) overkill. If you find nothing, the person being spied on will be resentful of not being trusted and if you find something, then trust is gone. Either way leads to lack of trust by one or both parties. I don't see how a relationship could be successful without this trust.

 

I have personal experience with this. My ex was very possessive and controlling. He used spyware on me for a year, becoming obsessed with finding something and found...NOTHING. But, guess what. That lack of trust destroyed our relationship. I could never get past this and in addition to other problems in the marriage, this killed the relationship.

 

There is a HUGE difference between a boyfriend and a husband. Especially if there are kids and shared assets involved.

 

There is also a HUGE difference between a controlling jerk paranoid about being cheated on and a case where there is good reason to be suspicious.

 

Communication is useless here. OP has already "communicated" with him and he LIED. Which is pretty standard when spouses get caught doing something sketchy.

 

If communication isn't honest, it's useless. Actaul evidence, on the other hand, has real world uses and applications. Such as forcing the betraying spouse to admit their betrayal, exposing the affair, and in court, if state law considers adultery when deciding on spousal support and asset distribution.

 

Spying and snooping didn't damage the trust in the marriage. Sketchy behavior and lies did.

[hippychick3]

There is a HUGE difference between a boyfriend and a husband. Especially if there are kids and shared assets involved.

 

There is also a HUGE difference between a controlling jerk paranoid about being cheated on and a case where there is good reason to be suspicious.

 

Communication is useless here. OP has already "communicated" with him and he LIED. Which is pretty standard when spouses get caught doing something sketchy.

 

If communication isn't honest, obviously it's useless. Actaul evidence, on the other hand, has real worlduses and applications. Such as forcing the betraying spouse to admit their betrayal, exposing the affair, and in court, if it comes to that and state law consider adultery when deciding on spousal support and asset distribution.

 

Spying and snooping didn't damage the trust in the marriage. Sketchy behavior and lies did.

 

Of course there's a big difference between husband and boyfriend. In my case it was a husband and there were kids, and it actually was the spying and distrust that ultimately damaged my trust in him despite counseling.

 

Yeah if communication isn't honest, it is useless. The relationship is not going to improve or recover (I see there is an exception above...I believe this is not the norm, however) after spyware. If she wants to use spyware to gather evidence to prove he is cheating in order to expose an affair and use in court, that is WAY different than using it to save a marriage. If she wants to save her marriage, this is NOT the way to do it because he's a lying, cheating jerk that will probably never change. If she wants evidence for legal reasons...go for it.

 

So, if they want to stay together for the sake of the kids despite the lack of trust, that's her choice...It won't be a healthy option for anyone though which was my original stance.

[uneek74]

Should we put children through hell, just to say they have two parents in a home. why put children through adult foolishness. I believe children would rather live in a peaceful home with less stuff, than watching their parents play cat and mouse games. Trying to save a marriage is one thing, and relationships do survive affairs, but I am not going to do so at my children's expense. Not all marriages are made in heaven and sometimes they should end. It takes years to regain trust once it's broken, not to mention the cost and time involved in playing detective. But while one is playing detective, I am sure the children aren't being given the parent's full undivided attention.

 

 

Again, I don't see how spying and snooping can save a marriage, help children. And too encourage or advise such is counterproductive. What works for some may not work for others.

[dichotomy]

If she wants to use spyware to gather evidence to prove he is cheating in order to expose an affair and use in court, that is WAY different than using it to save a marriage. If she wants to save her marriage, this is NOT the way to do it because he's a lying, cheating jerk that will probably never change. If she wants evidence for legal reasons...go for it.

 

So, if they want to stay together for the sake of the kids despite the lack of trust, that's her choice...It won't be a healthy option for anyone though which was my original stance.

 

 

Again many stories here on LS where until there is hard evidence there can't be a change - divorce.... or saving the marriage. In some instances (like mine) the nature of the evidence (type of affair, details, length) can help a BS decide which option to choose. Also in many stories here - until the WS is shown the hard indisputable evidence of their lies and cheating (by spying or stumbling upon evidence ) - they can't break through their affair fog... and realize they too have a choice to make about their marriage. People in affairs are often compartmentalizing or living in denial. Hard evidence from their WS can break the walls down. Again I have read stories of a WS finally crumbling in shivers and waking up after the emails are thrown down on the table. Not that divorce does not happen anyway but there is a process and truth in place then for choices.

 

However I can agree in some instances (again mine) that after a betrayal trust can be gone, and never return to 100%. But somewhere between 75 and 99% may be livable if the alternative of divorce is worse or their is somethings worth staying and working on.

 

About your other point about spying and finding nothing - if you have not concrete evidence and find nothing after a month or two - stop and then seek individual therapy for your unwarranted paranoia and trust issues and re double your efforts to be a good partner.

 

However a controlling insecure paranoid spouse who does not trust their partner with no reasons - and is spying all the time - for sure has a problem.

Edited January 24, 2016 by dichotomy

[MJJean]

Of course there's a big difference between husband and boyfriend. In my case it was a husband and there were kids, and it actually was the spying and distrust that ultimately damaged my trust in him despite counseling.

 

Yeah if communication isn't honest, it is useless. The relationship is not going to improve or recover (I see there is an exception above...I believe this is not the norm, however) after spyware. If she wants to use spyware to gather evidence to prove he is cheating in order to expose an affair and use in court, that is WAY different than using it to save a marriage. If she wants to save her marriage, this is NOT the way to do it because he's a lying, cheating jerk that will probably never change. If she wants evidence for legal reasons...go for it.

 

So, if they want to stay together for the sake of the kids despite the lack of trust, that's her choice...It won't be a healthy option for anyone though which was my original stance.

 

Ah, the phrasing was a bit ambiguous. Ex can mean anything, but I've seen it used more to refer to a BF or random lover than a husband, so I assumed. Sorry!

 

If you honestly believe that merely asking a spouse if they have or are currently cheating works, you have WAY more faith in the human race than we deserve.

 

Rarely does a cheater admit to it. Even in the face of evidence, most of them deny if they can and minimize if they can't get away with total denial. That's just part of the cheater package.

 

And they aren't just all of a sudden lying, either. They've been lying for a while. They lie about where they are, what they're doing, who they're with, how they feel, and so on.

 

Read through the infidelity related threads here (including the OW/OM ones), then go to TAM and do the same there, then head over to CWI and repeat. You'll see the pattern. The spouse who just admits it is the exception, not the rule.

 

As far as evidence gathering, a lot of BS NEED to know in order to process and make decisions. WS tend to lie like rugs. Without evidence, the BS lacks crucial information. Before a BS can decide to stay or go, they need to know the exact nature of the betrayal. Details matter. Some BS would forgive a purely physical affair, but not one that includes emotions. Some would forgive a short term thing, but not long term. Some wouldn't forgive if the WS talked smack about them.. These are all important details that cannot be had without looking at the evidence. Too many WS get caught and swear it was never physical when it was or that they were only cheating for 2 months when the truth is it's been going on far longer.

 

How a BS uses the evidence depends on what they uncover. But, really, anyone who is facing infidelity would be a fool NOT to gather evidence. Either they decide to work it out and the evidence is used toward that end or they decide to leave and the evidence is used toward that end.

[ladydesigner]

 

Spying and snooping didn't damage the trust in the marriage. Sketchy behavior and lies did.

 

So so true! Can't blame the snooper who's being cheated on!

[TexasMade]

I agree w/ those of you saying that you need "evidence" or at the very least, information, before proceeding. He lies to me so he won't hurt me. And so I won't get mad at him. So I don't expect him to tell me 100% of the truth if we sit for a heart to heart. I was thinking today---if it were me, I would probably lie, too. I wouldn't do a full confession and I'd downplay it & try to make it as cheap & unmeaningful as possible. But that's beside the point, I can't put myself in that position. But I do know exposing my hand & what I know at this point will only push him into lying & covering it up more. I want to see what, if anything is going on. Then I'll decide if I want to continue.

Has he actually cheated, physically? I don't think so. But I'm not going to be a fool & blindly believe anything & everything, until I know what exactly I'm dealing with.

 

As for the "read to me" text, it continues to be a mystery. No other texts, and absolutely no evidence in/around the house of anything weird going on while I was gone.

[hippychick3]

So so true! Can't blame the snooper who's being cheated on!

 

When there's not an actual cheater, yes you do blame the snooper.

[hippychick3]

Ah, the phrasing was a bit ambiguous. Ex can mean anything, but I've seen it used more to refer to a BF or random lover than a husband, so I assumed. Sorry!

 

If you honestly believe that merely asking a spouse if they have or are currently cheating works, you have WAY more faith in the human race than we deserve.

 

Rarely does a cheater admit to it. Even in the face of evidence, most of them deny if they can and minimize if they can't get away with total denial. That's just part of the cheater package.

 

And they aren't just all of a sudden lying, either. They've been lying for a while. They lie about where they are, what they're doing, who they're with, how they feel, and so on.

 

Read through the infidelity related threads here (including the OW/OM ones), then go to TAM and do the same there, then head over to CWI and repeat. You'll see the pattern. The spouse who just admits it is the exception, not the rule.

 

As far as evidence gathering, a lot of BS NEED to know in order to process and make decisions. WS tend to lie like rugs. Without evidence, the BS lacks crucial information. Before a BS can decide to stay or go, they need to know the exact nature of the betrayal. Details matter. Some BS would forgive a purely physical affair, but not one that includes emotions. Some would forgive a short term thing, but not long term. Some wouldn't forgive if the WS talked smack about them.. These are all important details that cannot be had without looking at the evidence. Too many WS get caught and swear it was never physical when it was or that they were only cheating for 2 months when the truth is it's been going on far longer.

 

How a BS uses the evidence depends on what they uncover. But, really, anyone who is facing infidelity would be a fool NOT to gather evidence. Either they decide to work it out and the evidence is used toward that end or they decide to leave and the evidence is used toward that end.

 

No, I absolutely do not believe that just asking a cheater will give you the truth. If the cheater is not going to be honest, then I don't see how the marriage can be a good one. Yes, one can "prove" the other is cheating and say "gotcha!"...and maybe they can "work" towards fixing things if they want to at this point. However, I can't imagine for the most part how this is going to result in a closer and more loving relationship for most couples (aside from Dichotomy's example). If there is no honest communication and no intent on both parties to go to intensive counseling in which both parties are open and transparent, it's time to reevaluate whether or not to bother staying in such a dysfunctional and crappy relationship. I would not want to continue with or without "proof". The simple fact that there is that much mistrust alone warrants outside help and open communication. If those 2 things can't happen, it's probably not a marriage worth staying in.

 

If the BS "needs" evidence to make decisions then don't expect it to result in a happy, loving, and trusting relationship.

[merrmeade]

I hate to go into detail because I'm paranoid that either of the women might be on this site & recognize themselves! Dumb, I know. But I know he's not here! I explained a little in another post. With one ex, he texted her something extremely graphic & when I confronted him, he said he was drunk (he was, I remember that night) and blah blah, all the usual bullsh*t that men say to get out of trouble. I know they aren't seeing each other. But I've been watchful & double-checking.

The other was a facebook message to another ex, and it could have just as easily been innocent as it could have been something more. He's never told me why they broke up but she has nothing but vile things to say to him, I've read her messages & emails to him. She's now blocked him from just about everything. So I'm not worried about her, but of course---always double-checking.

And why??? because of those stupid messages and the fact that I would have NEVER expected him to do that. So shocking to me & now I just don't know if I should trust anything.

So now I can't imagine what "come read to me" means. I wonder--did he meet someone at a restaurant & she said suggestively she'd like to read him a bedtime story? He only went to a restaurant, not a bar, not a topless place, nothing like that.

But the fact that there was no response---did she give him a fake number? Did he type it wrong?

All this senseless stressing over dumb stuff is taking it's toll, that's why I sometimes want to walk away.

I agree w/ those of you saying that you need "evidence" or at the very least, information, before proceeding. He lies to me so he won't hurt me. And so I won't get mad at him. So I don't expect him to tell me 100% of the truth if we sit for a heart to heart. I was thinking today---if it were me, I would probably lie, too. I wouldn't do a full confession and I'd downplay it & try to make it as cheap & unmeaningful as possible. But that's beside the point, I can't put myself in that position. But I do know exposing my hand & what I know at this point will only push him into lying & covering it up more. I want to see what, if anything is going on. Then I'll decide if I want to continue.

Has he actually cheated, physically? I don't think so. But I'm not going to be a fool & blindly believe anything & everything, until I know what exactly I'm dealing with.

 

As for the "read to me" text, it continues to be a mystery. No other texts, and absolutely no evidence in/around the house of anything weird going on while I was gone.

Nothing weird except for the story that's here already. You've been given lots of information, but you've looked the other way. At this rate, it will take you a few years to understand him, your reaction to him, what's going on and about his personality. I don't see other posts of yours and have a few questions: What're your ages? How long have you been married? Do you have kids?

 

Then, there's this whole subterranean story that you and he don't deal with together along with all slippery business behind your angst right now. He obfuscates, dodges, and dissembles to you and to himself. He sounds like one of those people who doesn't face the significance of his thoughts and actions, much less discuss them with the person he's supposed to be committed to. You even give him a handle, agreeing that it's the "bullsh*t that men say to get out of trouble." This is enabling, making excuses and letting him off the hook. You don't seem to expect him to own, up to it, let him gaslight you and avoid putting real expectations of honesty on him.

 

You say you're "not worried" about one ex because SHE's blocked him? So even if he's initiated something unacceptable, would initiate or do anything else inappropriate, because she doesn't want to reciprocate there's no problem? Isn't it a problem that he wants to or has even once?? And why won't he tell you why he broke up with the other one? Just what did he do that was so bad? It takes two to tango: What was his role?

 

Instead of dealing with these issues as they came up, you keep sidestepping the real questions of how he is with other women, with you there and without you (if you can), whether he flirts (and what else), how much, how far he'll go, with whom, and in what way. You just stew and brood without getting real answers. You say sometimes you just want to walk away, but you've got to hold him accountable either way. Hell, you already know he's capable of 'graphic texting,' aka sexting drunk and you just blow it off with "all men say that."

 

You say you're "not going to be a fool & blindly believe anything & everything," until you know everything. Well, begin by telling him that to his face. If you stand your ground and don't cave, acting like you buy his B.S., he'll make a slip sooner or later, probably sooner, and something akin to the truth or some part of it will slip out.

 

The question is what will you do about it.

[merrmeade]

TexasMade: I'm not being hard on you for no reason. I've been there and did some of this. Once they know you aren't being fooled, they stop playing like it didn't happen or doesn't matter - because it does matter and you can't let him rugsweep having disrespected you.

Edited January 26, 2016 by merrmeade

[Miss Clavel]

I always find this argument ridiculous.

 

So the second there is an suspicion, we better break up and destroy the kid's family?

 

That's overkill.

 

i snooped, for months. i took most of the papers on his desk. i read them, photo copied them and placed them back in the same position as they were before.

 

i went looking for proof. and i found it. which was shocking.

 

the proof really helped me when he tried to get back together with me. it gave me resolve. i knew that the person that did what he did, hated me.

 

if their lips are moving, their lying.

[The D Train]

I won't crucify you for spying. As my mother always said, it is better to be safe than sorry.

 

 

I would set up a google account, get a google voice phone number for your area and send this person a text. The text could be anything you think could shed some light on the situation. Maybe text "come read to me". See what happens.

[Lois_Griffin]

Honestly, you sound like you're in denial.

 

Spy Dialer simply BYPASSES the ringing of someone's phone and connects you RIGHT TO their voicemail. They never even hear the phone ring so I think you're making excuses NOT to Spy Dial the number when you say "I don't want to raise suspicions." I've heard some people DO get an alert - that they've been Spy Dialed. So what? Even if this person DID get that alert, so what? They didn't even return your husband's texts, so its not like YOU'RE the #1suspect on their radar screen or anything. I think the truth is, you don't WANT to know who she is.

 

That's perfectly understandable. It's scary to find out the person you love and trust is a liar and betrayer.

I can't help but chuckle at those who claim ASKING him is the best way to get the truth. LOL, as long as we're indulging in fairy tales, maybe you can ride off on your unicorn after you ask him for the truth and he tells you everything you want to know. :laugh:

[strugglinghubby]

I think there is a chance that he installs dating aps, or visits dating websites via his phone on private browsing. He may be talking to people on there, and every now and then one of them gives their number to him. He texts it.

 

In this situation it could well be that he was talking to someone else via a dating ap/website, they exchanged numbers and he text her. For whatever reason she doesn't bother to pursue it.

 

I would be having a look at his iTunes account, and looking in his previously downloaded aps. Make sure you also look at the 'hidden' section in iTunes where users can effectively hide previously downloaded aps. No one can permanently delete an iTunes purchase.

[TrustedthenBusted]

Yeah...doesn't matter what the text said. It could say come mop my floor...come cook me noodles....come flush the toilet....

 

Doesn't matter. YOU are out of town, and that's when he tells someone else to come over.

 

The reason doesn't matter.