Author truthtripper Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 It can be done. It depends on the mind-set inherent BEFORE the trauma. If you read accounts from some Holocaust survivors, or the monks and nuns tortured by the Chinese after their release. you'd see.... The animals which survive learn to mistrust and be more wary, which is a survival instinct. Wisdom is not a prevalent characteristic of animals. It's Apples and oranges. There are countless humans who are abused from birth(eg dysfunctional families) and even before that(eg women who are at odds with their pregnancies, as my mother was). No, wisdom is not a prevalent characteristic of animals, that's just my point. So what are animals gaining, in the abusive hands of humans? Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 There are countless humans who are abused from birth(eg dysfunctional families) and even before that(eg women who are at odds with their pregnancies, as my mother was). I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that those suffering at the hands of one person, suffered more as a result of their abuse, than those persecuted, incarcerated and tortured by an entire nation? No, wisdom is not a prevalent characteristic of animals, that's just my point. So what are animals gaining, in the abusive hands of humans? What has this got to do with HUMAN Consciousness? Link to post Share on other sites
NGC1300 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 ...when humans are the most destructive of all animals? Christians say God created us to experience His love, to love Him and each other. But love and good cannot be defined and therefore exist without evil. What is the point of experiencing love when there is so much sacrificial suffering in the world? Is God some kind of narcissist or has He made a big mistake? There is no god. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author truthtripper Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 I'm not sure I get your point. Are you saying that those suffering at the hands of one person, suffered more as a result of their abuse, than those persecuted, incarcerated and tortured by an entire nation? What has this got to do with HUMAN Consciousness? Yes, children suffering at the hands of one adult is the same as the effects of mass persecution. A child is completely dependant on the abusive adult, helpless, imprisoned, tortured, with no real love to refer to. That's why there is a high suicidal rate among those who have been abused in childhood. Consciousness allows humans to abuse and cause suffering. Digger123 says the reason for suffering is the earning of wisdom. Then what is the reason for the destruction of nature and animals other than us, thanks to humans, that do not have the capacity to reason as we can? My OP refers to the negative results of consciousness and what is the point of them. Link to post Share on other sites
NGC1300 Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 What is the point of experiencing love when there is so much sacrificial suffering in the world? Is God some kind of narcissist or has He made a big mistake? This is an important question, because even if you don't believe in god, you may find yourself asking a similar question about life in general. Are the brief moments of joy and love (which are guaranteed to nobody), really worth life's pain, sorrow, drudgery, physical decline, and inevitable sickness and death? I would say no, it's not worth it. And many throughout history have had some sense of this. Look at Buddhism. The basic teachings are that you can avoid suffering and attain bliss, though it may require some work. And that's the tragedy. Life isn't intrinsically blissful; we have to train our minds hard enough to fool ourselves into believing it is. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
WomenWubber Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 It wasn't God who offered man that delightful looking apple. Quite the contrary from what I recall reading. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Timshel Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) ...when humans are the most destructive of all animals? Christians say God created us to experience His love, to love Him and each other. But love and good cannot be defined and therefore exist without evil. What is the point of experiencing love when there is so much sacrificial suffering in the world? Is God some kind of narcissist or has He made a big mistake? If God is all knowing, God knew Adam would bite the Apple...which would make God an a**. Is God an a**? A question presented to me by a God loving and accomplished man. This question is timeless and serves the purpose of either drawing a person closer to or away from God. If you are a person who pictures God on a throne with the beard and sparkles shooting in all directions, then it is not difficult to understand your question but the answer will only be in religion and religious rhetoric/dogma. If you can imagine that God is the Alpha/Omega....the beginning and last, then you are able to understand on some level that our lives and the history of humanity is not based on our 'specialness'....instead, our evolution and ability to comprehend our inclusion in the vastness of universes that are beyond our current intellect. If this is true ^ then there is no power that dictates love or indifference, health or death, success or failure. There is existence and some understanding of timelessness. That life is eternal, no matter form.....and that judgement/pain represents our inhibitions and ignorance. If not, gravity and material presence are god. Edited February 1, 2016 by Timshel 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mightycpa Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 ...when humans are the most destructive of all animals? Christians say God created us to experience His love, to love Him and each other. But love and good cannot be defined and therefore exist without evil. What is the point of experiencing love when there is so much sacrificial suffering in the world? Is God some kind of narcissist or has He made a big mistake? I think you're thinking on a pretty earthly basis here. Try to put yourself in the shoes of an all-powerful being. For the sake of this exercise, we'll call you Him. What does death mean to Him? Nothing. What does the total destruction of the earth mean to Him? Nothing. Compared to eternity in Paradise, how bad is suffering, even if it is excruciating and lasts for years? Wouldn't you decide to endure it for the payoff? If the answer is no, I'll point out that you can kill yourself at any time. Ok, so now that we've put all your complaints into perspective, let's talk about human growth. If you've got a kid, you will probably understand better. You send your kid to kindergarten, and he beats up the other kids. Do you wish you didn't have him? You let you child ride a bike and engage in activities where he can get hurt, and lo and behold, he does. Are you cruel? Do you not love him? He likes this girl in HS. She likes him. They fall in love. You just know that her heart is going to get broken, because he's fickle and self-centered. Do you try to stop him? Do you hate her? Most people learn something from pain, emotional and physical, whether they cause it or whether they feel it. We learn in other ways too. I can't imagine any other model of creating beings that would work. If you want something that won't rebel, you create a robot, not a living being. Your question doesn't seem all that tough to me. Link to post Share on other sites
Author truthtripper Posted February 1, 2016 Author Share Posted February 1, 2016 And that's the tragedy. Life isn't intrinsically blissful; we have to train our minds hard enough to fool ourselves into believing it is. Consciousness has enabled us to train ourselves into denial, which only perpetuates our suffering. Turning a blind eye to problems doesn't allow us to work on them and eventually resolve them, it only creates more problems and more suffering. Link to post Share on other sites
Author truthtripper Posted February 1, 2016 Author Share Posted February 1, 2016 If God is all knowing, God knew Adam would bite the Apple...which would make God an a**. Is God an a**? A question presented to me by a God loving and accomplished man. This question is timeless and serves the purpose of either drawing a person closer to or away from God. If you are a person who pictures God on a throne with the beard and sparkles shooting in all directions, then it is not difficult to understand your question but the answer will only be in religion and religious rhetoric/dogma. If you can imagine that God is the Alpha/Omega....the beginning and last, then you are able to understand on some level that our lives and the history of humanity is not based on our 'specialness'....instead, our evolution and ability to comprehend our inclusion in the vastness of universes that are beyond our current intellect. If this is true ^ then there is no power that dictates love or indifference, health or death, success or failure. There is existence and some understanding of timelessness. That life is eternal, no matter form.....and that judgement/pain represents our inhibitions and ignorance. If not, gravity and material presence are god. This is really helpful Timshel, thank-you. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Author truthtripper Posted February 1, 2016 Author Share Posted February 1, 2016 I think you're thinking on a pretty earthly basis here. Try to put yourself in the shoes of an all-powerful being. For the sake of this exercise, we'll call you Him. What does death mean to Him? Nothing. What does the total destruction of the earth mean to Him? Nothing. Compared to eternity in Paradise, how bad is suffering, even if it is excruciating and lasts for years? Wouldn't you decide to endure it for the payoff? If the answer is no, I'll point out that you can kill yourself at any time. Ok, so now that we've put all your complaints into perspective, let's talk about human growth. If you've got a kid, you will probably understand better. You send your kid to kindergarten, and he beats up the other kids. Do you wish you didn't have him? You let you child ride a bike and engage in activities where he can get hurt, and lo and behold, he does. Are you cruel? Do you not love him? He likes this girl in HS. She likes him. They fall in love. You just know that her heart is going to get broken, because he's fickle and self-centered. Do you try to stop him? Do you hate her? Most people learn something from pain, emotional and physical, whether they cause it or whether they feel it. We learn in other ways too. I can't imagine any other model of creating beings that would work. If you want something that won't rebel, you create a robot, not a living being. Your question doesn't seem all that tough to me. Naturally, we learn from experimenting and from our mistakes. So do other animals. But other animals can't create the harm that we do. What about all the abused children in the world who have never experienced real love. There are millions of them. What about all the psychopathic and narcissistic individuals who are products of this abuse who only create hell for others and many of whom become leaders of nations. Is being terrorised the best way to learn? If you had a choice, would you choose this way of learning? Link to post Share on other sites
Timshel Posted February 1, 2016 Share Posted February 1, 2016 This is really helpful Timshel, thank-you. There are some days, minutes, hours that I see/feel expanse and selflessness. It is a lightness of being and I know that it is Truth. I wish I knew how to hold on to it and make it stay. It is a sporadic glimpse but it is enough to know that we (humans) are not there yet..... but it is possible if we don't kill each other first. In my opinion, that is not God's (oldest energy) fault. 'We' will always be....how far we go as human beings is on us. Thank you for the question. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
SincereOnlineGuy Posted February 2, 2016 Share Posted February 2, 2016 ...when humans are the most destructive of all animals? Christians say God created us to experience His love, to love Him and each other. But love and good cannot be defined and therefore exist without evil. What is the point of experiencing love when there is so much sacrificial suffering in the world? Is God some kind of narcissist or has He made a big mistake? All of that has nothing to do with the question: "Why did God create human consciousness?" If not conscious, human animals would seem like plants or Sand Dollars, or some such things, in a comatose state. Your imaginary friend has nothing to do with that. Link to post Share on other sites
Author truthtripper Posted February 2, 2016 Author Share Posted February 2, 2016 All of that has nothing to do with the question: "Why did God create human consciousness?" If not conscious, human animals would seem like plants or Sand Dollars, or some such things, in a comatose state. Your imaginary friend has nothing to do with that. You are really joking, aren't you? If so, that's very funny.......otherwise, check the context, comrade. Link to post Share on other sites
SincereOnlineGuy Posted February 4, 2016 Share Posted February 4, 2016 You are really joking, aren't you? If so, that's very funny.......otherwise, check the context, comrade. "context" ??? There is no other context of the word other than that to which I responded. It is quite OK if/that you have no idea what you're talking about. (I'm sure your imaginary friend will offset your lack of understanding when it really matters) Link to post Share on other sites
Author truthtripper Posted February 5, 2016 Author Share Posted February 5, 2016 "context" ??? There is no other context of the word other than that to which I responded. It is quite OK if/that you have no idea what you're talking about. (I'm sure your imaginary friend will offset your lack of understanding when it really matters) Look up the word 'consciousness'. It has several meanings, the particular one you're referring to being incorrect in this context. If you read what other posters have written, we are discussing the effects of the psychological meaning, of having self-awareness and the ability to reason, not the physical meaning of being awake. Link to post Share on other sites
Summer3 Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 ...when humans are the most destructive of all animals? Christians say God created us to experience His love, to love Him and each other. But love and good cannot be defined and therefore exist without evil. What is the point of experiencing love when there is so much sacrificial suffering in the world? Is God some kind of narcissist or has He made a big mistake? I've tried to figure out why we are here and what is morality and my thoughts and emotions can change rapidly depending upon my mood or who I'm speaking with at the time. Nobody has answers. It's weird being human. Watching yourself live and grow and seeing the world change and knowing one day you won't be. It's a cruel fate in fact, which leads many to engage in pleasures to make it seem worthwhile. TBH...I don't get any of it. Now I just try to get through the day. Do my tasks. Ask little of the world. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
SSJROMANCE Posted February 11, 2016 Share Posted February 11, 2016 ...when humans are the most destructive of all animals? Christians say God created us to experience His love, to love Him and each other. But love and good cannot be defined and therefore exist without evil. What is the point of experiencing love when there is so much sacrificial suffering in the world? Is God some kind of narcissist or has He made a big mistake? Christians say a lot of crazy things. Stop listening to them and you might not get so confused. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Yes, children suffering at the hands of one adult is the same as the effects of mass persecution. A child is completely dependant on the abusive adult, helpless, imprisoned, tortured, with no real love to refer to. That's why there is a high suicidal rate among those who have been abused in childhood. Please provide figures to back your point. I totally disagree with your statement (bolded) above. The situations are frankly, entirely incomparable. Please read this link. After enduring the suffering in these camps, Frankl validated his hallmark conclusion that even in the most absurd, painful, and dehumanized situation, life has potential meaning and that, therefore, even suffering is meaningful. This conclusion served as a strong basis for his logotherapy and existential analysis, which Frankl had described before World War II. He is quoted as saying, "What is to give light must endure burning." Consciousness allows humans to abuse and cause suffering. Digger123 says the reason for suffering is the earning of wisdom. Then what is the reason for the destruction of nature and animals other than us, thanks to humans, that do not have the capacity to reason as we can? My OP refers to the negative results of consciousness and what is the point of them. You're talking about two different behaviours. Link to post Share on other sites
Author truthtripper Posted February 13, 2016 Author Share Posted February 13, 2016 (edited) Please provide figures to back your point. I totally disagree with your statement (bolded) above. The situations are frankly, entirely incomparable. You are the one who compared them in the first place. And if you've decided that they are not comparable, then why do you want figures? I wouldn't be able to provide you with figures anyway, since child abuse is a silent mass killer. It occurs in many families and most people are in denial/don't talk about it, so the statistics are far from accurate. How do I know this? My life has been consumed by abuse from both my maternal and paternal families. As a result I have met hundreds of abused people in support groups over the last ten years. I have attended numerous educational seminars on child abuse and the widespread damage it causes not just to families but to communities and to societies in general. If you don't believe me, just ask any social worker-if you have the interest. Edited February 13, 2016 by truthtripper Link to post Share on other sites
Haydn Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 On day 1 i decided to.... Got bored with that and decided to.... Link to post Share on other sites
Author truthtripper Posted February 13, 2016 Author Share Posted February 13, 2016 Please provide figures to back your point. I just googled percent of abused children in the world and got the figure of 40 million children every year, including child neglect, exploitation and child labor. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Please provide figures to back your point. And how does this - I just googled percent of abused children in the world and got the figure of 40 million children every year, including child neglect, exploitation and child labor. Support this statement? Originally Posted by truthtripper ...... That's why there is a high suicidal rate among those who have been abused in childhood. Link to post Share on other sites
Author truthtripper Posted February 13, 2016 Author Share Posted February 13, 2016 Tara, you originally mentioned a few posts back, that abused people can regain their peace by referring to their lives before they were abused. I wanted to include the many people who have suffered child abuse, those who have never experienced peace and how difficult it is for them to heal. I don't want readers to dismiss their suffering. Comparing statistics is irrelevant and your argument above is also irrelevant to the OP. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted February 13, 2016 Share Posted February 13, 2016 Tara, you originally mentioned a few posts back, that abused people can regain their peace by referring to their lives before they were abused. No, I didn't say that exactly. What I said is that it depended on their inherent mind-set BEFORE the abuse. A person steeped in a particularly placid, spiritual and devout mind-set, will find it within themselves to connect with that Mind-set in the aftermath, and to overcome their experience. I wanted to include the many people who have suffered child abuse, those who have never experienced peace and how difficult it is for them to heal. Difficult yes: Impossible? Only if they believe it is. I don't want readers to dismiss their suffering. I don't think anyone here has even inferred dismissal of Suffering. I thought the discussion was supposed to centre on Why God created Human Consciousness? Pain is inescapable. Suffering is optional. There is an element of Choice as to just how much one permits oneself to suffer, and for how long. Comparing statistics is irrelevant and your argument above is also irrelevant to the OP.I hate to throw stones in a glass house, but you started it...... 1 Link to post Share on other sites
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