Stockholm syndrome, submissive personality, consent and choice in an affair.

January 6, 2016

Not necessarily in the context of an affair but I have spoken with quite a few abused women in DV situations. Many of them experience stockholm-like symptoms or PTSD symptoms. At the very least there is often anxiety and/or mistrust.

Any person who could say/do those things while there is an emotional attachment can gaslight and mess with their head whether you want to call it Stockholm Syndrome or something else. Often for these women, they don't have the self esteem and boundaries to see this for what it is. More than likely she didn't think he's THAT bad, like those abusive guys, tried to see his side to a fault, etc. That's usually what happens.

If you suspect it's due to an abusive dynamic, I would actually research co-dependency. Many abused people tend to follow into that model or it allows them to get into an abusive relationship without seeing the red flags.

She tends to think of herself (and has voiced this too) as an abused person. In her childhood, her brother used to beat her. I know this is true. Her brother also used to be pampered by her father and she was treated with a "stricter" expectation of good behavior than her brother.

All of this is true, so I completely believe she feels abused.

She also feels abused by me, because I was who I was, overly responsible (not just expecting her to be responsible but also expecting myself and others around me to be responsible), and always expected myself and others to "be in control". Was this truly emotional abuse towards her or did she simply perceive it to be that way, possibly because of her past experiences? There was never any physical violence from me towards her. I never ever touched her, although there have been instances at which she has hit me, once even on my face. I had to hold her hand so she did not continue to hit me.

The relationship with her boss started off as a friendship, about 6 months before the affair, when they talked on the phone about her coworker with whom she had work related issues. Then, it become emotionally closer, after she joined the same company as her affair partner.

January 7, 2016

Responses in bold below.

I did not hear it directly from the IC.

Cheaters lie. Cheaters gaslight. Cheaters rugsweep. Cheaters minimize. And cheaters do about everything in their power to deflect the blame and justify their bad behavior.

The tough part here is you simply cannot believe anything that comes out of her mouth because she has proven herself as deceptive and dishonest. She may have told 75% truths but the problem is you don't what is in the 75% column vs the 25% column.

Anything she says has to be independently verified by another party or other corroborating evidence. If it can't be substantiated, it can't be believed.

That is why I'm arranging a MC session in which we can talk about this and ask the MC in a joint session. If we land up getting a MC that also seems to "support" her in her "victim" attitude, what should we then do?

Cross that bridge when you get to it.

I suspect that what you are actually going to run into is any reputable MC is going to try to get her to take accountability for dropping her panties and then she is going to be the one that says the MC isn't credible and that they are out to get her.

She is likely going to be the one that resists the MC.

Its very hard to know if its possibly to justify 9 or 10 sexual encounters under a pretext of "stockholm syndrome".

No it's not hard. You are just trying very hard to be able to blame this on something other than bad behavior and weakness on her part.

I'm not trying to play Jr Shrink but IMHO your ego is trying to protect you from admitting that your wife was attracted to another man and wanted to have sex with him and likely enjoyed that sex in the moment.

No, the affair partner did none of those things with a van.

I was making a point. Not being literal.

I would however believe that she was naive and fell for his "lines", believing they may spend sunsets together.

That is part of what your ego is trying to protect you from and part of why you are holding on the premise that she was coerced so hard. There are few things that diminish your view of a person more than when you view them as weak and gullible.

It's painful to think that your wife was attracted to and desiring another man.

But it almost diminishes her value more when you see her as weak and stupid.

Your brain is trying to pick whether she was hot and horny for another man, or weak and dumb.

Your ego doesn't like either of those options so it is coming up with Stockhold Syndrome and various levels of coercion.

She may be confusing the fact that he did dupe her with "feeling victimized".

I actually think YOU are the one confused with that. She is just grasping at whatever straws she can to keep you from thinking she's a whore or weak dumba$$ so she is milking this victimization thing for all it's worth.

What I personally believe at this point is that she landed up being victimized in the end, but she did not go into the affair as a victim.

Well OK, I guess that is a start.

Can I expect a marriage counselor to draw such conclusions (if the counselor feels they are true)?

I think it is too presumptuous to try to guess what a counselor is going to think into the future.

I think the critical thing here is not to let her BS the MC. Call her out on anything she says that is not 100% factual. Do not allow her to slip in any nontruths or polish things up.

Unless she can produce evidence of being whacked over the head and tied up in a van, any Stockholm Syndrome theories are going to whither away real fast.

One of the problems I have with marriage counselors is this: If there is an "intent" to try to make things work for the marriage, what if the marriage counselor "chooses" to not reveal any such truths with the assumption that it would "hurt" me?

Just like a medical doctor is professionally obligated to disclose any medical condition you may have, An MC that has been hired by a couple is professionally obligated to disclose any facts that are relevant to counseling process. When a couple hires an MC for "marital counseling" the client is the marriage and not necessarily it's individual constituents. There for anything impacting the marriage would have to be disclosed.

on the other hand if the counselor was her IC that she hired individually to counsel her and you were simply attending one of her sessions, that IC may withhold relevant facts from you that may not be in her best interests for you to know.

How should I stress upon the counselor that it would be even more hurtful for me to NOT know the truth than it would be for me to hear a hurtful truth?

Hire an MC as a couple to counsel the marriage and not represent her individually as the client.

January 7, 2016

A little bit on the nose.

OT, but haven't seen VBM on here since he received his wife's diagnosis. Hope he found some peace over the holiday season ...

Mr. Lucky

January 7, 2016

The reason I'm starting another thread is that I want to be able to exclusively understand and discuss the topic of the thread, independently of any particular affair story (independent of my story too).

Here is the thread of my story, incase someone finds it pertinent:
http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/561922-dealing-wife-s-affair

I would prefer to hear from spouses involved in this combination of an affair circumstance ONLY:
1) Wayward Wife.
2) Betrayed Husband.
3) Wife has a submissive personality and is afraid of the husband for some reason.
4) Husband has an overly responsible personality, possibly viewed as controlling by the wife.
5) Wife was a "victim" (as claimed by the wife) of an affair caused by a sociopath affair partner, possibly in a position of authority and power, and has possibly been labeled as a victim of the "stockholm syndrome".

One recent thread by "Conquerer" seems to have some common traits as the above criteria:
http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/564385-how-do-i-get-over-my-affair-partner-i-love-him

I wanted to be able to discuss and analyze how much power can be attributed to "the stockholm syndrome" in the context of an affair matching the above criteria, and understand and evaluate the mental psyche and feelings of a wayward wife, when she went through the affair and also evaluate a betrayed husband's understanding and level of trust in attributing the affair to "the stockholm syndrome".
Ultimately, its always a choice that a wayward wife makes to have an affair, but how much control does fear, manipulation and sympathy (some characteristics of the stockholm syndrome) play in the part of that decision?

Essentially, I want to understand how real the "stockholm syndrome" is in such an affair, and how much control does a wayward wife really have in "fighting the syndrome" to NOT have the affair?

Stockholm syndrome, or capture-bonding, is a psychological phenomenon in which hostages express empathy and sympathy and have positive feelings toward their captors, sometimes to the point of defending and identifying with the captors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_syndrome

I haven't read many of your threads, but... Yeah, if this is what your wife is coming up with, her victim mentality sounds pretty off-the-chart.

I worked that victim mentality pretty hard.

Forget MC until she gets her **** together, seriously.

January 7, 2016

The reason I'm starting another thread is that I want to be able to exclusively understand and discuss the topic of the thread, independently of any particular affair story (independent of my story too).

Here is the thread of my story, incase someone finds it pertinent:
http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/561922-dealing-wife-s-affair

I would prefer to hear from spouses involved in this combination of an affair circumstance ONLY:
1) Wayward Wife.
2) Betrayed Husband.
3) Wife has a submissive personality and is afraid of the husband for some reason.
4) Husband has an overly responsible personality, possibly viewed as controlling by the wife.
5) Wife was a "victim" (as claimed by the wife) of an affair caused by a sociopath affair partner, possibly in a position of authority and power, and has possibly been labeled as a victim of the "stockholm syndrome".

One recent thread by "Conquerer" seems to have some common traits as the above criteria:
http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/564385-how-do-i-get-over-my-affair-partner-i-love-him

I wanted to be able to discuss and analyze how much power can be attributed to "the stockholm syndrome" in the context of an affair matching the above criteria, and understand and evaluate the mental psyche and feelings of a wayward wife, when she went through the affair and also evaluate a betrayed husband's understanding and level of trust in attributing the affair to "the stockholm syndrome".
Ultimately, its always a choice that a wayward wife makes to have an affair, but how much control does fear, manipulation and sympathy (some characteristics of the stockholm syndrome) play in the part of that decision?

Essentially, I want to understand how real the "stockholm syndrome" is in such an affair, and how much control does a wayward wife really have in "fighting the syndrome" to NOT have the affair?

My wife was wayward.

I am a BH.

My wife came from a very patriarcal household.

My (ex)wife would say that she was afraid of me (although not until after Dday). I would say she is a conflict-avoidant coward.

While she would not say that she was a victim, her affair was with her boss, who is obviously in a position of power and authority.

Your wife is a liar. My wife was, too. And you are still in a betrayed spouse fog, desperately clinging to whatever attempts you can in order to do damage control to a marriage that you weren't and still aren't ready to lose. I did much the same. I had put all of my eggs into one basket. I'd spent 18 years making all of my decisions towards one goal: a good marriage and family.

When Dday hit, I was distraught. Everything I had worked towards was for nothing. In a desperate attempt to minimize the damage and regain some semblance of control, I latched onto any excuse I could find. I blamed myself that I drove my wife into the arms of another man. I blamed mid-life crisis. I blamed her upbringing. I put an immense amount of moral pressure on myself to forgive.

It was all nonsense. My desperation to save my investment was compounded by my wife's desperation to manage me and minimize the consequences.

You're clinging to nonsense, my friend. It's common. But you should stop. Your wife made a series of voluntary decisions. Stop making excuses for her.

I'm sorry for what you're going thru. It's awful.

January 7, 2016

If that is true, how do I make her NOT feel controlled and scared, yet hold on to my personality of being "responsibly proactive"?

With the help of a counsellor, you find out exactly what you're doing which makes her feel this way. And then stop doing it. It's absolutely crucial that you accept that she DOES feel what she feels and that you don't write her feelings off as being false or that she doesn't understand you.

Regarding being responsible, it's your role to be responsible for yourself. But this doesn't extend to being responsible for your wife or her decisions. The fact that she feels controlled makes me believe that you're telling her which choices to make or how to behave.

Also note that you described yourself in your opening post as 'overly responsible'. That phrase alone sends up a red flag for me. There's a difference between being responsible and overly responsible.

January 7, 2016

No, it's not about what he is doing. It's about her perception. It's ridiculous unless he is holding her hostage and beating/starving/raping/locking... her into submission.

The thread topic is overly dramatic.

I'm pretty disgusted by the comparison, truthfully.

January 7, 2016

He complimented her looks on a daily basis, encouraged her to join the gymn and improve her figure, gaslighted her, invoked her feelings of sympathy for him, telling her a sob story about his wife not treating him well, confessed his own attraction towards her, provoked her by telling her that 60% of America has affairs and that she deserves to be happy and not be a slave.

He had probed our private life to find out about everything that was wrong with our marriage and then used that against her. Things like arguments we used to have about money, the stress in our lives related to our jobs, lack of consistent intimacy between us (We used to spend time together, but not consistently or regularly)

He seduced her and she willfully went into the affair, which lasted for about 4 months. I had no idea ofcourse and had fully trusted her and she betrayed my trust in the worst possible manner.

This is from your first ever post, in your own words. You also call your WW's AP a sociopath.

There is no way for you to do that, nor for your WW's therapist to do so unless the therapist has evaluated the AP. This whole thread is deeply upsetting to me.

Focus on the important stuff not trying to blame the AP for your WW's transgression. From your report above maybe you should look at the state of your own M. It doesn't look too peachy from what you wrote.

January 7, 2016

He complimented her looks on a daily basis, encouraged her to join the gymn and improve her figure, gaslighted her, invoked her feelings of sympathy for him, telling her a sob story about his wife not treating him well, confessed his own attraction towards her, provoked her by telling her that 60% of America has affairs and that she deserves to be happy and not be a slave.
He had probed our private life to find out about everything that was wrong with our marriage and then used that against her. Things like arguments we used to have about money, the stress in our lives related to our jobs, lack of consistent intimacy between us (We used to spend time together, but not consistently or regularly)
He seduced her and she willfully went into the affair, which lasted for about 4 months. I had no idea ofcourse and had fully trusted her and she betrayed my trust in the worst possible manner.

This is from your first ever post, in your own words. You also call your WW's AP a sociopath..

Oh for God's sakes.

There's a huge difference between a married opportunist 'grooming' someone for an affair, and this utter nonsense about Stockholm's Syndrome and espionage and blackmail and extortion and all this other nonsense the OP is suddenly claiming happened.

Her brother beating her up when she was little is HARDLY justification for her ridiculous stories about why she had an affair.

God forbid she actually OWN her shi*t.

Wonder what her silly story will be next week for why she had an affair? I'm stepping out to the snack bar for popcorn but I'll be back for the show.

January 7, 2016

Are you going to a therapist or an actual psychologist/psychiatrist? Because a therapist cannot diagnose anything. And a responsible one would not even suggest a diagnosis but would instead refer the person to someone who can diagnose. Which is what my son's therapist did for him when he was 9 and my therapist did for me when I was ... much older. I was then able to go back to my therapist for treatment. My son stayed with the psychologist for a few years.

People love to self diagnose and diagnose others with all kinds of conditions. Because if they have XYZ then it isn't their fault.

Own your issues, and demand they own theirs.

I have a touch of OCD hording. It is mild compared to the stuff on the shows, but it sometimes impacts my life. Everyone in my family holds me accountable. I am not allowed to use it as an excuse for when my hoard of choice piles up.

As to your W having an A. She chose to do that. My ExH still blames me for the A he had. It was never my fault, it wasn't his APs fault, it was his. His choice. As long as your W is trying to make it her APs fault and herself just a victim. Your M will not be able to heal.

January 7, 2016

Oh for God's sakes.

There's a huge difference between a married opportunist 'grooming' someone for an affair, and this utter nonsense about Stockholm's Syndrome and espionage and blackmail and extortion and all this other nonsense the OP is suddenly claiming happened.

Her brother beating her up when she was little is HARDLY justification for her ridiculous stories about why she had an affair.

God forbid she actually OWN her shi*t.

Wonder what her silly story will be next week for why she had an affair? I'm stepping out to the snack bar for popcorn but I'll be back for the show.

I agree Lois

January 7, 2016

Abuse doesn't make someone cheat. I also don't believe the victim stance.

Abuse does give someone poor perceptions of what it appropriate and poor boundaries so that could be part of the issue for HER to fix. It often also manifests into poor self esteem which often leads to poor choices. That takes time to undue but it can be done and that would be an excellent use of therapy for her rather than putting labels onto things and using that to justify bad behavior.

I think what you need to do is decide whether you REALLY want to put your marriage back together or not. She has to too. I mean really with actions; not just words.

I'm not trying to minimize her part in it but you BOTH need to take actions to save the marriage and make things better if you want to continue it.

I don't want to get too heavily into your actions being abusive but statistically it is often correct if someone feels they are being abused. I wouldn't let her play victim but there might be something there that you could be doing better to make her feel better. Even if not abusive you can hurt someone's feelings.

Not sure if you have checked out the marriage builder website? There is a lot of good stuff there about how both partners often help the marriage deteriorate and how it can lead to cheating. Again not trying to say she doesn't deserve blame for cheating. What I'm trying to say is that if you take this from the standpoint of I'm perfect and you suck things won't get better. BOTH of you need to make better choices if you want to continue. You can't keep going down the same downward spiral.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Miss Peach

January 7, 2016

Abuse doesn't make someone cheat. I also don't believe the victim stance.

Neither do I. It is a copout and excuse to have an escape (affair) just like drug addiction. Some people just self medicate with an A.

OP your wife is not a victim in this. She chose to do this because SHE WANTED TO.

January 7, 2016

My wife was wayward.
I am a BH.
My wife came from a very patriarcal household.
My (ex)wife would say that she was afraid of me (although not until after Dday). I would say she is a conflict-avoidant coward.
While she would not say that she was a victim, her affair was with her boss, who is obviously in a position of power and authority.

Your wife is a liar. My wife was, too. And you are still in a betrayed spouse fog, desperately clinging to whatever attempts you can in order to do damage control to a marriage that you weren't and still aren't ready to lose. I did much the same. I had put all of my eggs into one basket. I'd spent 18 years making all of my decisions towards one goal: a good marriage and family.

When Dday hit, I was distraught. Everything I had worked towards was for nothing. In a desperate attempt to minimize the damage and regain some semblance of control, I latched onto any excuse I could find. I blamed myself that I drove my wife into the arms of another man. I blamed mid-life crisis. I blamed her upbringing. I put an immense amount of moral pressure on myself to forgive.

It was all nonsense. My desperation to save my investment was compounded by my wife's desperation to manage me and minimize the consequences.

You're clinging to nonsense, my friend. It's common. But you should stop. Your wife made a series of voluntary decisions. Stop making excuses for her.

I'm sorry for what you're going thru. It's awful.

Dear BetrayedH,

Some other members and some of your responses had initially pointed me in the direction of the fact that your story may have some similarities as mine. I appreciate all the help that you're offering. I'm truly grateful. I intend to read your entire threads from top to bottom, in detail.

My wife basically told me that her IC (and some other psychologists) have told her that she was a "victim". I have no way of independently verifying what he IC told her, because I was not there.

However, with the MC sessions that I'm about to setup, when I'm there, in her presence, I hope that the MC will be forthright enough with the truth and not simply try to rug sweep things in order to support what both clients are "hoping" for (namely, my wife and me hoping that the marriage will last and the relationship will be saved)

After reading all your threads, if I have questions about your journey, would it be OK to ask you on this very thread (or my main thread)? It would really help me.

There are 2 situations I want to avoid:

1) Being fooled by my wife (either about what really happened, about how she really felt about her affair partner [and me] then or about how she feels now [about him and me]) and continuing the relationship under any kind of delusion.

2) If she comes clean with nothing but the truth (complete honesty), about then (past) and now (present), and it turns out that she really is not able to be "in love" with me, at a 100%, then I don't want to continue the relationship.

January 7, 2016

Dear BetrayedH,

Some other members and some of your responses had initially pointed me in the direction of the fact that your story may have some similarities as mine. I appreciate all the help that you're offering. I'm truly grateful. I intend to read your entire threads from top to bottom, in detail.

My wife basically told me that her IC (and some other psychologists) have told her that she was a "victim". I have no way of independently verifying what he IC told her, because I was not there.

However, with the MC sessions that I'm about to setup, when I'm there, in her presence, I hope that the MC will be forthright enough with the truth and not simply try to rug sweep things in order to support what both clients are "hoping" for (namely, my wife and me hoping that the marriage will last and the relationship will be saved)

After reading all your threads, if I have questions about your journey, would it be OK to ask you on this very thread (or my main thread)? It would really help me.

There are 2 situations I want to avoid:
1) Being fooled by my wife (either about what really happened, about how she really felt about her affair partner [and me] then or about how she feels now [about him and me]) and continuing the relationship under any kind of delusion.
2) If she comes clean with nothing but the truth (complete honesty), about then (past) and now (present), and it turns out that she really is not able to be "in love" with me, at a 100%, then I don't want to continue the relationship.

You're welcome to ask me whatever you like. I'm kinda sporadic about my reading lately (finally kinda getting a life) but I'll make a point to come back and check this thread. Or you can PM me if/when you have privledges.

I'll admit I haven't read your full story or threads. I read enough to see that your wife isn't demonstrating true remorse, at least not as I define it. And I recommend a position of strength when that happens. Patience is counterproductive the vast majority of the time. But frankly, I figured that a million and one people have probably already said as much to you.

I'm not sure my threads as BetrayedH will be all that helpful. My real "story" was under my first username, "Kidd" in a thread called, "Next Steps?" You should also know that I made every mistake in the book. You might wanna do the opposite.

I'm kinda swamped with work lately but I'll see if I can't get caught up on your story and provide some thoughts. But I suspect you'll eventually find what works for you. This is a good place to find thought partners and fine tune your thoughts and decisions. Try not to lose your mind in the meantime.

January 8, 2016

Your wife may have come to the conclusion that she was overly influenced by a dominating affair partner. She might be one of the kinds of women who seem to succumb to a powerful guy, despite apparently being a strong woman in her own right. I know someone like this and was stunned to see this strong woman capitulate to a guy who clearly had major anger issues and was dangerous to her. He was violent and I suppose she could have been described as suffering from Stockholm Syndrome as one would have to have bonded or become identified with someone not to blame them for such abusive behaviour.

However, whatever the situation, your wife did have an affair with another guy. She could have said no. She didn't. She has also accused you of being controlling - this may be true, I don't know. The fact that she ends up with controlling guys says more about her personality than it does about her capacity to be faithful. Some people behave in a childlike way and leave all the responsibilities up to others. They then blame others when things go wrong or don't go the way they expected. Is your wife like that?

Whatever relationship pattern you two were in, you have the choice of deciding whether she is a childlike person (who will never take responsibility for her decisions) and whom you are prepared to accept as that kind of person, or whether she should be held accountable. Not every human behaves like an adult. Some people seem to stay eternally childlike and live in a kind of fairyland. This all tends to fall apart when their parent figure leaves them.

Edited January 8, 2016 by spiderowl

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