Stockholm syndrome, submissive personality, consent and choice in an affair.

January 6, 2016

The reason I'm starting another thread is that I want to be able to exclusively understand and discuss the topic of the thread, independently of any particular affair story (independent of my story too).

Here is the thread of my story, incase someone finds it pertinent:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/561922-dealing-wife-s-affair

I would prefer to hear from spouses involved in this combination of an affair circumstance ONLY:

1) Wayward Wife.

2) Betrayed Husband.

3) Wife has a submissive personality and is afraid of the husband for some reason.

4) Husband has an overly responsible personality, possibly viewed as controlling by the wife.

5) Wife was a "victim" (as claimed by the wife) of an affair caused by a sociopath affair partner, possibly in a position of authority and power, and has possibly been labeled as a victim of the "stockholm syndrome".

One recent thread by "Conquerer" seems to have some common traits as the above criteria:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/564385-how-do-i-get-over-my-affair-partner-i-love-him

I wanted to be able to discuss and analyze how much power can be attributed to "the stockholm syndrome" in the context of an affair matching the above criteria, and understand and evaluate the mental psyche and feelings of a wayward wife, when she went through the affair and also evaluate a betrayed husband's understanding and level of trust in attributing the affair to "the stockholm syndrome".

Ultimately, its always a choice that a wayward wife makes to have an affair, but how much control does fear, manipulation and sympathy (some characteristics of the stockholm syndrome) play in the part of that decision?

Essentially, I want to understand how real the "stockholm syndrome" is in such an affair, and how much control does a wayward wife really have in "fighting the syndrome" to NOT have the affair?

January 6, 2016

OP,

What?!?! There is no Stockholm Syndrome in affairs. Affairs do not begin with traumatic bonding. The affair partner is not an oppressor. He did not threaten your wife with death or serious bodily harm to herself or loved ones if she did not enter into the affair. She chose the affair not out of duress but out of an exercise of free will.

The longer you believe she was not a willing participant, the harder it will be to reconcile. She was not a victim; she was an accomplice. I am not trying to be be disrespectful, but I think accepting this unpleasant fact is essential. I am sorry you are hurting.

OL

January 6, 2016

I'm also sorry but your wife was not a victim but chose him of her own free will. If she felt threatened in any way she has a very strong husband to protect her. Please don't buy the victim story.

January 6, 2016

OP,

What?!?! There is no Stockholm Syndrome in affairs. Affairs do not begin with traumatic bonding. The affair partner is not an oppressor. He did not threaten your wife with death or serious bodily harm to herself or loved ones if she did not enter into the affair. She chose the affair not out of duress but out of an exercise of free will.

The longer you believe she was not a willing participant, the harder it will be to reconcile. She was not a victim; she was an accomplice. I am not trying to be be disrespectful, but I think accepting this unpleasant fact is essential. I am sorry you are hurting.

OL

The affair partner did gaslight her into thinking that he would plant drugs into my car to try to get me in trouble. There were other instances of fear psychosis in which he indirectly threatened to have her fired from the job. Please don't assume anything without knowing all the facts. There is a reason I started this thread and a reason I posted a preferred criteria for people from whom it would be useful to hear.

January 6, 2016

Stockholm syndrome is where hostages begin to sympathize with their captors.

Someone having an affair with their boss is because women find men in authority and with power attractive and so they want to.

I'm sorry but your wife screwed that guy because she found him attractive and she desired him.

January 6, 2016

The affair partner did gaslight her into thinking that he would plant drugs into my car to try to get me in trouble. There were other instances of fear psychosis in which he indirectly threatened to have her fired from the job. Please don't assume anything without knowing all the facts. There is a reason I started this thread and a reason I posted a preferred criteria for people from whom it would be useful to hear.

Where and how did you get this information?

January 6, 2016

The affair partner did gaslight her into thinking that he would plant drugs into my car to try to get me in trouble.

Most wives would immediately tell their husband about the above. They would decide together what to do. That is the most absurd excuse I've ever heard.

There were other instances of fear psychosis in which he indirectly threatened to have her fired from the job.

Again, that is what you are there for to protect her. There is also an HR department to report this type of behavior. Your wifes excuses don't hold water.

Please don't assume anything without knowing all the facts. There is a reason I started this thread and a reason I posted a preferred criteria for people from whom it would be useful to hear.

We can only work with what you tell us and her excuses just don't make sense. This is an open forum and anyone can reply to these threads.

I doubt if anyone is going to tell you what you want to hear which seems to be that your wife was a helpless whimp in her affair.

January 6, 2016

OK, I meet some of these either completely or partly......

I would prefer to hear from spouses involved in this combination of an affair circumstance ONLY:

1) Wayward Wife.

I do not meet this criteria

2) Betrayed Husband.

Yes I am.

3) Wife has a submissive personality and is afraid of the husband for some reason.

My wife is an extrovert, but perhaps a bit submissive.....I do not think she is afraid of me......

4) Husband has an overly responsible personality, possibly viewed as controlling by the wife.

I am very responsible. My personality per some tools has come out that I am a control person, not sure. But, my entire life I have always been very responsible, persistent and conservative.

5) Wife was a "victim" (as claimed by the wife) of an affair caused by a sociopath affair partner, possibly in a position of authority and power, and has possibly been labeled as a victim of the "stockholm syndrome".

I will give my wife a lot of credit here. She never claimed to be a victim. However I will say in my opinion she was manipulated by a very experienced player. He knew what he was doing and planned how to get what he wanted. She can see what he did and that he took advantage of her vulnerability. Having said that, she has always taken full responsibility. She made the choice. She was not raped. There was no gun to her head.

To see a cheater as a victim is not good for a healthy reconciliation. In my opinion, few if any cheaters are victims.......

January 6, 2016

Where and how did you get this information?

I heard some audio conversations that were secretly recorded. I also know the personality of this person. There were instances of gaslighting in which I was physically present and can attest to.

January 6, 2016

Stockholm syndrome is where hostages begin to sympathize with their captors.

Someone having an affair with their boss is because women find men in authority and with power attractive and so they want to.

I'm sorry but your wife screwed that guy because she found him attractive and she desired him.

I know what Stockholm syndrome typically is. My wife's IC told her that she was a victim of stockholm syndrome. That is why I posted this question to ask if that can be true.

January 6, 2016

The affair partner did gaslight her into thinking that he would plant drugs into my car to try to get me in trouble. There were other instances of fear psychosis in which he indirectly threatened to have her fired from the job. Please don't assume anything without knowing all the facts. There is a reason I started this thread and a reason I posted a preferred criteria for people from whom it would be useful to hear.

He said these things to her, before or after the affair had begun?

January 6, 2016

Most wives would immediately tell their husband about the above. They would decide together what to do. That is the most absurd excuse I've ever heard.

Again, that is what you are there for to protect her. There is also an HR department to report this type of behavior. Your wifes excuses don't hold water.

We can only work with what you tell us and her excuses just don't make sense. This is an open forum and anyone can reply to these threads.

I doubt if anyone is going to tell you what you want to hear which seems to be that your wife was a helpless whimp in her affair.

My wife did immediately tell me about the indirect comments he made about another person. It the time neither of us knew what "gaslighting" was.

I did not take those comments seriously and ridiculed at them, and also comforted my wife that she was worrying for no reason.

My wife was afraid to approach HR because he seemed to instill fear into her.

There isn't something "I want" to hear. The reason I posted these questions is because I want to know if this is a possible syndrome in this situation, but from bonafide sources only. Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, but are you a bonafide source?

January 6, 2016

He said these things to her, before or after the affair had begun?

Before, as well as after.

January 6, 2016

OK, I meet some of these either completely or partly......

I would prefer to hear from spouses involved in this combination of an affair circumstance ONLY:
1) Wayward Wife.

I do not meet this criteria

2) Betrayed Husband.

Yes I am.

3) Wife has a submissive personality and is afraid of the husband for some reason.

My wife is an extrovert, but perhaps a bit submissive.....I do not think she is afraid of me......

4) Husband has an overly responsible personality, possibly viewed as controlling by the wife.

I am very responsible. My personality per some tools has come out that I am a control person, not sure. But, my entire life I have always been very responsible, persistent and conservative.

5) Wife was a "victim" (as claimed by the wife) of an affair caused by a sociopath affair partner, possibly in a position of authority and power, and has possibly been labeled as a victim of the "stockholm syndrome".

I will give my wife a lot of credit here. She never claimed to be a victim. However I will say in my opinion she was manipulated by a very experienced player. He knew what he was doing and planned how to get what he wanted. She can see what he did and that he took advantage of her vulnerability. Having said that, she has always taken full responsibility. She made the choice. She was not raped. There was no gun to her head.

To see a cheater as a victim is not good for a healthy reconciliation. In my opinion, few if any cheaters are victims.......

Appreciate this response. Now that is what I call a useful answer.

Did a psychologist or counselor diagnose the conditions under which the affair happened?

Who drew the conclusion that she was manipulated?

At what point did your wife take full responsibility and how did she prove to you that she had taken full responsibility?

Did you show enough remorse to your satisfaction? How often did she ask for forgiveness and how long did it take for you to truly forgive her?

Did forgiveness come in stages, based on her continued display of remorse or was it a sudden "aha" feeling of having forgiven her?

Sorry for so many questions, but its because I found your post to actually be helpful to me. I appreciate all honest answers. Thanks.

January 6, 2016

I know what Stockholm syndrome typically is. My wife's IC told her that she was a victim of stockholm syndrome. That is why I posted this question to ask if that can be true.

Did you hear those words come out of the IC's mouth?

If you didn't then she is feeding you a line.

If you did then she needs a new IC.

So no, it can't be true.

Unless he pulled up beside her in van, whacked her over the head, through her in the van, bound and gagged her, hauled her to a secret hideout where he kept her bound and secluded and beat her, raped her and brainwashed her with propaganda for weeks on end, she does not have Stockholm Syndrome.

Now she may have been a bit naïve and believed his c'mon lines and thought they were going to ride off into the sunset together. Chicks fall for that all the time and she may have felt a little duped and silly once she realized he wasn't going to take her fulltime.

But when she was dropping her drawers and wrapping her legs over his shoulders it was because she was attracted to him, wanted to have sex with him and was making a conscious choice based on what she was wanting to do at the time.

Just because things don't work out the way they had initially hoped or intended does not mean that they were coerced or brainwashed or being forced into doing any against their will at the time.

January 6, 2016

NS......

I want to share one thing with you.

After my affair...John and I went to a psychologist.....individually. I went first. Then John went. She told John things that I said.....only I did not say them. She infuriated John....because she blasted him with how he was controlling....how he was stifling me....

This was in 1983....and she was very much a feminist.....and i was not.

So she told John her interpretation of the things i said and it was absolutely not correct.

MC, Psychologist, Psychiatrist.....only know the information they are given....and sometimes that information is not honest or complete....and it can be misinterpreted by the professional.

Your wife...gave information to the MC....and the MC diagnosed her with Stockholm syndrome. It does not mean that this diagnosis is correct.

January 6, 2016

OP,

The reason why you cannot get on with reconciliation is because your wife has never taken responsibility for her actions. I mean how can you possible trust that another persuasive and charming guy will not come along with the same Jedi mind trick? The only way you can ever trust her again is if you feel she will be able to withstand future advances. This starts by her wanting to be accountable for her actions.

January 6, 2016

Long thread with much discussion about the WS's culpability and responsibility:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/501659-wife-31-years-had-affair-my-story

Mr. Lucky

January 6, 2016

Not necessarily in the context of an affair but I have spoken with quite a few abused women in DV situations. Many of them experience stockholm-like symptoms or PTSD symptoms. At the very least there is often anxiety and/or mistrust.

Any person who could say/do those things while there is an emotional attachment can gaslight and mess with their head whether you want to call it Stockholm Syndrome or something else. Often for these women, they don't have the self esteem and boundaries to see this for what it is. More than likely she didn't think he's THAT bad, like those abusive guys, tried to see his side to a fault, etc. That's usually what happens.

If you suspect it's due to an abusive dynamic, I would actually research co-dependency. Many abused people tend to follow into that model or it allows them to get into an abusive relationship without seeing the red flags.

January 6, 2016

Before, as well as after.

I don't understand why she would have sex with the guy if he was saying these things to her, and enter into an affair. Making threats to her family and her course of action is to sleep with him? Does this sound realistic to you. More likely she is exaggerating the things he did to minimize her poor choices.

I can feel that your having a difficult time in accepting what she chose to do and trying to rationalize her decision. But I think you need to accept this was a choice she made. The way you describe in your other thread on how she was seduced, made it seem like she was hypnotized or something. Yes he seduced her, she could have walked away, she could have put a stop to it, she didn't it, she entered into it of her own accord.

You need to accept the choice she made, it was something she wanted at the time. You can't divert the blame from her, you need to accept it, the only way you'll be able to move on, no matter how much it hurts now.

January 6, 2016

What struck me here was the way you describe your marriage. In particular, the fact that you don't believe your wife's feelings about you.

I fixed your sentences for you

3) Wife has a submissive personality and is afraid of the husband.

4) Husband has an overly responsible personality, and is viewed as controlling by the wife.

If you are to get anywhere in solving this, you need to accept the fact that your behaviour makes your wife feel controlled and scared.

January 6, 2016

Appreciate this response. Now that is what I call a useful answer.
Did a psychologist or counselor diagnose the conditions under which the affair happened?
Who drew the conclusion that she was manipulated?
At what point did your wife take full responsibility and how did she prove to you that she had taken full responsibility?
Did you show enough remorse to your satisfaction? How often did she ask for forgiveness and how long did it take for you to truly forgive her?
Did forgiveness come in stages, based on her continued display of remorse or was it a sudden "aha" feeling of having forgiven her?
Sorry for so many questions, but its because I found your post to actually be helpful to me. I appreciate all honest answers. Thanks.

Did a psychologist or counselor diagnose the conditions under which the affair happened?

Not really. Unfortunately, we both found our counselor to be lacking and not very helpful.

Who drew the conclusion that she was manipulated?

Actually, it was me. She really did not blame him.

At what point did your wife take full responsibility and how did she prove to you that she had taken full responsibility?

She actually took full responsibility the moment she confessed. In reality it took years of actions for me to feel safe again. I never questioned her "owning" the affair. She did from the beginning....almost painfully so.

Did you show enough remorse to your satisfaction?

NO. I believed she was sorry, but something was absolutely lacking. I never thought she demonstrated true remorse. I think many waywards never demonstrate true remorse.....probably most. It took 30 years before I saw what I felt was true remorse.

How often did she ask for forgiveness and how long did it take for you to truly forgive her?

She said she was sorry often. I must say without the remorse the sorry falls somewhat flat. I really do not know how long it took to forgive her. Sometimes I felt I forgave her then due to the depression, triggers and everything else going on, I felt maybe I did not forgive her. I think it takes years to really forgive this type of betrayal.

Did forgiveness come in stages, based on her continued display of remorse or was it a sudden "aha" feeling of having forgiven her?

I think it comes in stages. I think you can think you reached that point and then wham, the depression and triggers take over. I think when I finally saw the true remorse it was an aha moment, but, as I said this was years later.

Just to give you a little more insight since I know you are really struggling. I struggled for years. Many may have thrown in the towel, but I was willing to settle for what I had versus losing my wife. We never separated. Never quit having sex. I doubt our kids ever knew something was wrong. I think you have to fight together to keep the marriage together. Neither of us could fix it alone. Marriage can be hard work adding reconciliation adds to it even more. I do think after the affair, my career became less important to me, despite that, I have done very well.

January 6, 2016

The reason I'm starting another thread is that I want to be able to exclusively understand and discuss the topic of the thread, independently of any particular affair story (independent of my story too).

You could start a hundred threads as far as I'm concerned, it's not like we're running out of internet. However I think it would behoove you to question your own motives in doing so. From the threads I've seen from you, it appears that you're essentially asking the same questions, just wording them differently which leads me to believe that your purpose is seeking different answers than the ones you've already been given. I could be wrong, but that's how it looks and I'm not the first to notice it.

Just about all of your threads boil down to seeking an "out" for your wife's role in all of this, whether you can see that or not from the inside perspective is questionable given how close you are to it and how invested you are, but as an outside observer with nothing invested I can tell you that it's pretty glaring from over here.

If somebody eventually gives you the "correct" answer, that you're wife was brainwashed by her OM and that she's not entirely responsible for how she's treated you due to his overwhelming influence on her, how will that change the dynamic of your situation? What will you be doing differently on a daily basis if that synopsis were proven to be true? What is your endgame in all of this?

Long thread with much discussion about the WS's culpability and responsibility:

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/501659-wife-31-years-had-affair-my-story

Mr. Lucky

A little bit on the nose.

January 6, 2016

Did you hear those words come out of the IC's mouth?

If you didn't then she is feeding you a line.

If you did then she needs a new IC.

So no, it can't be true.

Unless he pulled up beside her in van, whacked her over the head, through her in the van, bound and gagged her, hauled her to a secret hideout where he kept her bound and secluded and beat her, raped her and brainwashed her with propaganda for weeks on end, she does not have Stockholm Syndrome.

Now she may have been a bit naïve and believed his c'mon lines and thought they were going to ride off into the sunset together. Chicks fall for that all the time and she may have felt a little duped and silly once she realized he wasn't going to take her fulltime.

But when she was dropping her drawers and wrapping her legs over his shoulders it was because she was attracted to him, wanted to have sex with him and was making a conscious choice based on what she was wanting to do at the time.

Just because things don't work out the way they had initially hoped or intended does not mean that they were coerced or brainwashed or being forced into doing any against their will at the time.

I did not hear it directly from the IC.

That is why I'm arranging a MC session in which we can talk about this and ask the MC in a joint session. If we land up getting a MC that also seems to "support" her in her "victim" attitude, what should we then do?

Its very hard to know if its possibly to justify 9 or 10 sexual encounters under a pretext of "stockholm syndrome".

No, the affair partner did none of those things with a van.

I would however believe that she was naive and fell for his "lines", believing they may spend sunsets together.

She may be confusing the fact that he did dupe her with "feeling victimized". What I personally believe at this point is that she landed up being victimized in the end, but she did not go into the affair as a victim. Can I expect a marriage counselor to draw such conclusions (if the counselor feels they are true)?

One of the problems I have with marriage counselors is this: If there is an "intent" to try to make things work for the marriage, what if the marriage counselor "chooses" to not reveal any such truths with the assumption that it would "hurt" me? How should I stress upon the counselor that it would be even more hurtful for me to NOT know the truth than it would be for me to hear a hurtful truth?

January 6, 2016

What struck me here was the way you describe your marriage. In particular, the fact that you don't believe your wife's feelings about you.

I fixed your sentences for you

3) Wife has a submissive personality and is afraid of the husband.

4) Husband has an overly responsible personality, and is viewed as controlling by the wife.

If you are to get anywhere in solving this, you need to accept the fact that your behaviour makes your wife feel controlled and scared.

If that is true, how do I make her NOT feel controlled and scared, yet hold on to my personality of being "responsibly proactive"?

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Stockholm syndrome, submissive personality, consent and choice in an affair.

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