Dealing with wife's affair.

[MidwestUSA]

 

I hope you understand what I'm saying & don't take offense. Your words can be taken in more than 1 way & as said earlier 'it raises the hair on the back of my neck' when I read certain things....

 

I'm glad to know it's not just me. TY.

[MidwestUSA]

She asked me on some occasions on what my intent was. I made it clear (looking at her straight in the eyes), that I am trying my part to make things work, but either outcome is fine with me (if it works or not).

 

On some occasions she has seen me cry and in pain, but that could also be construed as crying about what has happened (feeling sorry for myself), not crying about possibly losing her. She has also seen me angry at most times during the day and not making any of my own attempts to connect with her, emotionally or physically.

 

She also knows that I have developed some women friends and I have met some for coffee.

 

The truth is that I'm becoming more and more OK with the idea of either outcome, so my attitude should reflect in my behavior as well.

 

Please get the divorce papers drawn up. You're just prolonging the pain. Set yourself free. Please.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Naively Sensitive--

 

I think I have read all of your posts, but maybe I have missed some things.

 

1. How is your W treating you besides without affection? Like a friend? Ignoring you? Kindly?

 

2. I mean you no offense (honestly), but you continually mention her not having sex with you. I am a little uneasy with the way you phrase this. It almost sounds like you are being denied something you feel you have a right to, like she is your property. I am sorry, but I do not view marital sex that way. It is almost like you are saying you can handle most everything about how she is behaving except she owes you sex! Is this how you feel?

 

3.* What else besides money does she accuse you of "controlling"? Restaurant choices? Date nights? Hobbies? Fun? Family outings? Vacations?

 

4.* You keep saying that you know you can't control the outcome of this, but what should you do to have the best chance. Do you see the contradiction? Asking how to have the desired outcome IS trying to control the outcome! Hope for the best but assume the worst and move forward. You have no other real choice.

 

5. How much MC or IC are either of you doing?

 

6. Codependents (I have been one forever) always feel they are being responsible in doing anything and everything to save the R. They are proud of themselves--true martyrs, mature adults, selfless human beings. The problem is how much codependents do not think about, worry about, take care of, or protect themselves while the takers in their lives just take and take and leave them exhausted and empty handed. Did you say that you read up on codependency?

 

7.* I know you are hurting and feel very alone, but you are not alone. You have many wonderful things in your life, namely yourself! We have to be there for ourselves during the hard times, telling ourselves what we need to hear--self soothing. Google it! Self soothing works. People we love and count on can always leave us--death, disability, divorce, illness. We. Have. No. Control. Give yourself the gift of learning to love you without a relationship, and your marriage will stand it's best possible chance. I promise. You do not need to embrace hate toward your wife or move quickly to divorce her; just take all the love you have and shine it on yourself. The Internet will teach you how if Google it enough different ways. Pretend she is very ill. How would you conduct your life?

 

Your 2016 is going to be very different and very powerful for you, I can feel it. You are never alone. The world is wide open and waiting for you, with or without your wife. You can grow tons either way.

 

Peace and hugs.*

 

thecharade,

 

1. Like a friend, but not like some coworkers whom she even laughs with on the phone. Its obviously not like even a "normal" friendship. She is not explicitly ignoring me, but she does not take much of an initiative to connect or talk to me either. I also don't take much initiative. I mostly stick to business and talk minimally with her, unless she or I request that we "talk".

 

2. You are right. After the affair, I have felt a hysterical need to bond with her, because our relationship that I considered so sacred (one soul, almost one body) has been violated so severely by her actions. It almost feels like I have been raped by her actions and by those of her affair partner. Many times, I feel a sense of entitlement for her to make up, by reciprocating the feeling of the hysterical bonding (But only if she really does still consider the relationship so "close". I detest fake feelings). It almost feels like her body belongs to me and my body belongs to her as well (I feel that she ought to also vigorously assert herself on me as well, emotionally trying to connect as well as sexually trying to assert herself). When she asked me on some rare occasions on what would help me recover, I simply told her that it would make me feel much more "secure" in the relationship if she also asserted herself on me, almost like a "wild woman", right from forcing her arm around me to hug me (or to take a selfie) to asserting herself sexually. During the vacation, on one occasion when there was a fight (about something else), she asked me if I expected her to do belly dances for me, and I honestly (but non-demandingly) replied, "Why not? What would be wrong if a spouse did that for their partner?"

 

I never felt this way for 15 years of our marriage, so this is not my usual, default emotional and mental state, but I recognize that this feeling has mostly emerged as a severe emotional reaction of the trauma of her affair. There were several nights during which I used to have the same nightmare. One of me in a subway tube train where the doors had already closed and I was putting both my hands up against a window, looking at my wife on the platform, as the train pulled away, signifying that I had lost my wife forever, because I may never be able to mentally "accept" her back, and I would not have any choice to control my feelings about that (signified by the train adhering to its own schedule of the doors closing at an exact and predetermined time)

 

3. Occasionally she complains about the restaurants (although I "always" ask her about her choice first and she usually transfers the decision back to me, probably because she feels submissive towards my own choice). Date nights: Yes. She complains that I don't want to pay a babysitter and instead, I try to come up with "convenient" options to leave the kids with families friends with mutually symbiotic arrangements.

Some hobbies are similar, like watching movies, although I like the convenience and money savings of watching new movies on in our home theatre projector room, but she sometimes prefers the "movie experience" in a public theatre.

Our ideas of vacations are also a little different. Sometimes she likes "relaxing" vacations in a hotel, whereas I think its a waste of money to spend thousands of dollars on air tickets to just relax in a hotel in a different international location. If relaxing was the only goal, it may be better served in a rental or hotel in a different part of the same town we live in (perhaps by the lake). I also don't mind beautiful places of natural beauty, which may involve a little walking or hiking. She prefers not to walk as far as possible.

e.g. I would love to see and stay in an acceptably "rugged" way at Yosemite {or Yellowstone} National Park (taking wildlife pictures), but I don't think she would even consider that as a vacation destination.

For most vacations in the past, we have reached acceptable compromises in what we both wanted. In Europe, we have stayed at budget hotels and used some money to see many tourist spots and sightsee popular spots in the cities.

 

4. What I mean to say is this: I don't want to be controlling towards her, but what is the harm in trying to control a desired outcome (which she also claims she wants), by making things as favorable for her as is possible for me? Infact, that is being the opposite of controlling. Its like trying to factor in her needs into a space that would be suitable and big enough for both our emotional comfort zones. That is all I mean to achieve.

 

5. We did about 10 sessions of MC between months 1 and 4 of DDay, and about 3 IC sessions each during that same timeframe. We will probably go back to do another 8 sessions of MC starting in about 3 weeks.

 

6. I have yet to read up more material and gather some knowledge about codependency. I think we are both codependent on each other.

 

7. Thanks so much for those words of encouragement. I'm trying to independently heal, but the lack of closure makes it much harder, because the expectation of my wife being there for me is in limbo. I don't know whether or not to expect her to be there for me, (because I have decided to not take any decision about the outcome of R or D as yet). Maybe that confusion and limbo is coming in the way of me either depending completely on myself for my own recovery or expecting her help in this process. I can only hope that my pain and suffering start to reduce in 2016, because this year has been the worst trauma in my entire life, close to the trauma of death.

I KNOW that what you have reminded me of is certainly possible. That the world is "waiting" for me to live my life and so many possibilities exist even outside of just my relationship with my wife. However, if a person's primary dream in life WAS to have this passionate relationship with one's spouse, then giving up on that one biggest dream seems like the biggest disappointment of one's life. Could I redefine myself and my identity completely towards a different primary dream and motivation in my life? Perhaps. Do I want to? No. Will I have to? Thats what I will have to be a little patient to find out.

 

Thank you so much for all your care and support towards a complete stranger.

 

Peace, Love and Hugs.

And wishing you and your family a Wonderful New Year that turns out even better than the previous year!

[Ladyjane14]

A few months ago, she was the one who subtly started to ask me (on certain occasions when we fought) about how come I did not ask her to come back into the bedroom? On most of those occasions I told her that she was the one who left the bedroom and I wasn't going to be the one to ask her to come back. It would have to be her initiative. Then, on later occasions I reflected back on some prior conversations during which she had mentioned that whenever we previously fought in our marriage, it was always her who initiated approaching and talking to me.

So, on later occasions I actually gently asked her if she would come back into the bedroom. She responded by saying that she would think about trying to come back after we returned from our 8 day vacation (We returned 3 days ago)

 

I asked her once more 2 days ago, more like asking her if she would like me to continue to ask her. She responded by saying that she needed a few more days to process her emotions.

 

I have stopped initiating the conversations in which I tell her my pain and ask her for her help. I used to do that many months ago, but then stopped for various different reasons. After that, on rare occasions she asked me about how I was doing and I just told her some facts of how hard it was for me to get through every single day, how hard every morning was with emotional as well as physical pain in my gut and in general, how serious an impact this had on me. On other rare occasions, she asked me what she could do about it. I told her that I needed a lot of empathy, hugs and time spent with me, sometimes talking and sometimes just being physically there for me. On other occasions (when she was upset after an argument) she confronted me about my need for passionate sex with her. I simply told her that it was what I felt I needed, but there was no pressure or coercion from my side. She used to respond in a cold manner, even about my needs for empathy and hugs. About my need for passionate sex, she told me that she could not live out any sexual fantasies or things like that for me.

 

During the vacation she did try to connect with me, by asking if I would like to hold her hand during walks on the beach and things like that. Sometimes I was in an angry mood and simply said "No", and at other times, when my emotions allowed me to, I did hold her hand. I did not push myself to feel any certain way. I just went with the flow.

On some occasions she asked if I would join her in the hot tub. Again, I just went with the flow, based on my emotional state. 2 days before we returned, she said it would be better if we showered together and I went with the flow. She kissed me on my lips during the shower and I just let her kiss me, but did not feel like reciprocating with a passionate response.

It felt like she was respecting her own emotions by taking baby steps, so I wanted to do the same and respect my emotions too.

 

Yes, we have been together for 15 years, a long time, and things have definitely changed. Its obviously after the affair that things have changed. In the 15 years of our marriage, our romantic life degraded from both of us towards the other person. She used to be a little more expilcit about intimacy, would take more initiatives, etc. As a comparison, on our first night when we landed in this country as a married couple, when we were about to passionately make love, she asked if I had a video camera that we could use. I was a little surprised (but excited as well) and went, "Huh"? On other occasions, when we traveled to other international destinations on vacations, we took pictures of ourselves making love and she seemed excited about it. Even after the revelation she made of her affair to me, in the first 3 months, there was hysterical bonding that we both wanted and during that time when I suggested (and asked) making sex videos of ourselves to help me get over the PTSD, she seemed to gladly agree. We even selected lingerie for her together and ordered it. She would try out the lingerie and tell me how she liked it. She seemed quite excited about it all and even told me that she thought I was going to buy a 2nd camera for "another angle". She would take the initiative sometimes to pose for sexy pictures and videos and also take the initiative to want to take passionate pictures of both of us in foreplay.

 

Our relationship was rough before her affair, but it was rough in ways that it is for many couples. We used to fight about money, silly arguments and had not been intimate for about 6-8 months before this affair happened. There was also stress in our jobs. I would regularly try to comfort her about her job stress, almost on a daily basis, but she kept repeatedly complaining about the same things over and over again, and after many months of giving her the same career advice I gave her, I started to get frustrated and would sometimes respond by telling her that "no job was ever perfect" and would ask her to deal with her job problems (like a pushy coworker) on her own. I had a hard time at work too, but generally used to tackle my own problems. We used to have good times too, but in routine ways, like going out to eat twice a week, like clockwork. Life may have become a little routine and mechanical, but again, none of these I believe are excuses to ever go astray and betray the most sacred trust in a marriage.

 

I recognize what you say about both of you being a mess. My wife often uses that phrase and also uses the analogy that 2 blind people cannot help each other (referring to ourselves), but I don't seem to understand why that analogy holds true for us. Why can't a husband and wife help heal each other, even if they are both emotionally in pain? A common friend of ours also uses the phrase that "she cannot be the cause of your pain and the medicine for it too". I can't understand why not?

 

I can also completely relate to the extreme conflicting emotions that you must be going through, because I go through them too. On one hand I try what I can to make things work, but on the other hand, there is tremendous conflict in whatever I do to "try", because I'm in so much pain and suffering because of her, yet, I'm expected to somehow push that pain aside "for the greater good" of our relationship. Life really is unfair, because currently, I'm in pain and suffering and I'm not getting back relief or anything in return for that pain and suffering, except a hope and a future prospect of the relationship being restored to its full passion. I view my pain and suffering simply as an investment that I hope will pay off in a couple of months.

 

You're like a ticking emotional timebomb and she never knows what to expect from you. She never knows if her bids for reconnection will welcomed or rebuffed. And you're wondering why she's becoming less and less willing to make them.

 

Let's say, for a moment, that the cheating never happened. Would you consider your behavior appropriate? Would you say that your methods were likely to produce greater emotional closeness in the relationship?

 

While it's true that some cheaters are just self-absorbed *******s, most are deeply troubled, confused people who don't know how to get the relationship they want at home and end up seeking it from an outside source. THAT is the dynamic that has to be repaired. We have to make it easy to get what they need at home.

 

Fair?... nope. But like I've told you over and over, nothing about infidelity is fair.

 

The reason why I'm successful and you're not isn't that your pain is somehow greater than mine. It's because I stepped back, took a clinical view of what had happened, and set about fixing it. Love is a VERB. You say you love your formerly wayward wife, but how the hell would she ever know it, let alone trust it? Your actions aren't loving.

 

As I've told you before, what a recovering wayward fears most is that they'll never truly be forgiven and that they'll spend the rest of their lives in the one-down position. What have you done to resolve that fear? Because it sounds to me like all you're doing is reinforcing it by behaving unpredictably.

 

For the life of me, I just don't understand why people will say they want their cheating partner back, but then treat them like **** if they stay.

 

Reconciliation doesn't happen overnight. It takes a long time to fully arrive at mutual trust. But when you say that you're striving for an outcome.. mutual trust is what you're looking for. How are your current actions achieving that?

 

What would happen if you stopped focusing on your wife healing YOU and started focusing on healing the relationship, setting up an emotionally safe environment? You've said you want her back, but why?.. so you can use her?.. punish her? You're so focused on finding a way to figure out if she loves you, but do you love HER? Because if you do, then ACT like it.

 

Choosing reconciliation after adultery means that you are voluntarily giving up your right to punish? Have you?

Do you ask yourself at every interaction "am-I-punishing?" Because if you haven't... that's why it's going wrong.

[whichwayisup]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Don't go off and have an affair. Think about this, do you want to involve another woman into your life, cause her pain all because you want your needs and desires met by someone else as your wife won't and can't be there for you? How is another woman possibly falling in love with you, becoming very emotionally attached to you, caring for you etc., going to help in the long run? All that does is add MORE pain and another person to the mix. Forget how your wife might react, it's just not fair to offer yourself up to someone else when you still want your wife (end game meaning you want her back and hope your marriage can continue), and you'll be devastating someone elses heart.

[Naively.Sensitive]

You're like a ticking emotional timebomb and she never knows what to expect from you. She never knows if her bids for reconnection will welcomed or rebuffed. And you're wondering why she's becoming less and less willing to make them.

 

Let's say, for a moment, that the cheating never happened. Would you consider your behavior appropriate? Would you say that your methods were likely to produce greater emotional closeness in the relationship?

 

While it's true that some cheaters are just self-absorbed *******s, most are deeply troubled, confused people who don't know how to get the relationship they want at home and end up seeking it from an outside source. THAT is the dynamic that has to be repaired. We have to make it easy to get what they need at home.

 

Fair?... nope. But like I've told you over and over, nothing about infidelity is fair.

 

The reason why I'm successful and you're not isn't that your pain is somehow greater than mine. It's because I stepped back, took a clinical view of what had happened, and set about fixing it. Love is a VERB. You say you love your formerly wayward wife, but how the hell would she ever know it, let alone trust it? Your actions aren't loving.

 

As I've told you before, what a recovering wayward fears most is that they'll never truly be forgiven and that they'll spend the rest of their lives in the one-down position. What have you done to resolve that fear? Because it sounds to me like all you're doing is reinforcing it by behaving unpredictably.

 

For the life of me, I just don't understand why people will say they want their cheating partner back, but then treat them like **** if they stay.

 

Reconciliation doesn't happen overnight. It takes a long time to fully arrive at mutual trust. But when you say that you're striving for an outcome.. mutual trust is what you're looking for. How are your current actions achieving that?

 

What would happen if you stopped focusing on your wife healing YOU and started focusing on healing the relationship, setting up an emotionally safe environment? You've said you want her back, but why?.. so you can use her?.. punish her? You're so focused on finding a way to figure out if she loves you, but do you love HER? Because if you do, then ACT like it.

 

Choosing reconciliation after adultery means that you are voluntarily giving up your right to punish? Have you?

Do you ask yourself at every interaction "am-I-punishing?" Because if you haven't... that's why it's going wrong.

 

Its true that my emotional state is extremely unpredictable. It is what it is. If I could change it, I would, but I'm obviously not able to. I researched this to find how to stabilize my emotional state, but thats like trying to expect miracles being in my shoes.

She did what she did, but expecting no emotional trauma as a result of her actions is like throwing a ball up in the air and expecting it won't fall back down.

 

I can also understand her predicament and this is not about punishment. It is about acceptance from both of us towards the other's emotional state.

That is why we seem to be stuck and the situation may just turn out to be an impasse or a stalemate. It is clear what both are intentions are. What is not clear is how we permanently break out of our emotional states. The way I think about it is this way..... In early stages of courtship, people in love choose to be vulnerable and pursue whatever emotions they feel. If A loves B, but is not sure if B loves A, then it should not prevent A from pursuing B. If my wife is truly sorry for the affair and wants to help me recover and loves me, then it should be possible for her to give it her 100%, inspite of not knowing if I will eventually be able to forgive her. I'm not willfully punishing her and would definitely want to forgive her 100%, but if she does not put in the 100% effort, then how can I honestly be able to forgive her? The trauma and pain is intensely severe for me. Its not easy for me to even get through the next day, let alone think so far ahead. Life is always a risk. When she had the affair, she risked destroying my emotional and mental state, which is exactly what happened, for a highly sensitive and responsible person of my personality.

 

In the end, I cannot take full responsibility for making the relationship work. All I can do is try my best and all she can do is try her best too. After our best efforts if things don't work out then atleast we would have given it our best shot. I know for sure that I have been giving it my best shot, so, so far, I have no regrets and will continue to give it my best shot for the next couple of months. I hope she is of the same mindset of wanting to give it her best shot and do the best she is capable of.

[ShatteredLady]

This is my 1 year anniversary of my life being shattered. Not D-day, that came 8 months later really. But it all started New Years Day last year.

 

 

Can I ask you a question that will TRULY help me? Please be honest...

 

When you're depressed do you honestly have No, Zero, zip control over what you say & how you behave?

 

I know it's hard because you're the bs & my husband is the WS. It makes all the difference in the world!

 

You're one of the first people I've known be so open about your feelings & reactions who's got some similarities. To be honest I'm in floods of tears, having one of those looking at my bottle of pain meds nights...thinking how very easy it would be to just fall asleep forever.... Don't worry. I never would but it's so very tempting.

 

I truly love my husband. There are times that I'm in a horrible mood. I want to say & do cruel things just to release the pressure & a little revenge, to make him feel a little of the pain he's inflicted on me.

Something stops me!! I can't be mean. I can't be cruel...even if it's the truth.

 

I don't believe "You always hurt the one you love!". I truly believe that "You always take any amount of hurt to protect the one you love!".

 

In our house my H's depression is a get-out-of-jail-free card. That's a sarcastic saying. I don't mean that. I truly believe that he can't control his passive aggressive nature or his depressive tendencies....even when we were blissful in our honeymoon phase he suffered from depression. It's very real. He's possibly bipolar.

 

 

Even before the A. When you had your 'episodes' did you say & do mean things that you just couldn't stop?

 

I don't mind if you private message me...or anyone else who suffers from mood-swings, bipolar, depression or passive aggressive (most won't admit to that one) help! Melt down time. Ugh!!!

[thecharade]

"I don't believe "You always hurt the one you love!". I truly believe that "You always take any amount of hurt to protect the one you love!"

 

No. IMHO, no.

You do not "hurt" those you love. And you do not allow yourself to be hurt. Healthy relationships are neither of those. You protect yourself and others with honest, fair decisions, even if you end up hurting or they end up hurting. Being honest and fair means the best possible decision has been made, regardless of whether or not it feels good in that moment. That is what healthy relationships look like.

 

Shattered Lady, have you looked into codependency?

[ShatteredLady]

Yes! Some of it fits, some of it doesn't. My notion of codependency, layman's term, yes! Internet research, not so much.

 

It's my 1 year anniversary of the doors of hell opening. I'm falling apart. I need to step away from the computer but it's helping me not breakdown....more than I already am! I'm sorry....so sorry.

[ShatteredLady]

Quote - "You protect yourself and others with honest, fair decisions, even if you end up hurting or they end up hurting. Being honest and fair means the best possible decision has been made, regardless of whether or not it feels good in that moment. That is what healthy relationships look like."

 

I'm not being obtuse but what do you mean?

Life's not that easy. It's not simple decisions like 'Should we move house?'. You analyze the advantages & disadvantages. You do spread sheets of what you can afford, school districts, travel to work, school etc.

 

Are you advocating brutal honesty no matter how much pain it inflicts & how little gain it offers? I don't even know what 'honesty & fairness' would look like in my situation.

I don't consider what feels good! That really doesn't enter the equation really. I feel good when those I love feel good. I don't feel good in my life but all the alternatives seem more painful, long & short term.

 

I understand what your words mean but in my context? This is embarrassing, I'm a literature girl. Can you say it again in context with my situation?

[thecharade]

Awww, Shattered Lady--I am very sorry for your pain. I know how much this all hurts. I have not been the BS, but I have suffered intense emotional pain in life, and there is nothing worse.

 

Of course you are confused because the words are simple but the ideas behind them are massive. It has taken me many years of hard work to heal huge holes. My mother was selfish, narcissistic, disapproving, and controlling, so my movements in romantic relationships came from that needy, beaten down place. I was not healthy, and it took so much work to change my thinking--but I did it!

 

I will use my children as an example. My daughter is a teenager and very self-centered right now. I try to make her happy and do what she wants, but it always backfires. Her happiness is short-lived and as soon as I can't do what she wants, doors are slamming and she acts like a brat. Not good or respectful. Ignoring what she wants and saying to her, "No!" straight away would be easy breezy for me, but it would really hurt her over time. So, what do I do if I want a healthier dynamic?

 

Loving her--in terms of giving to her and catering to her and trying to make her happy--does not work. It is impossible actually. And "loving me" by selfishly ignoring her does not work. It ignores her needs. So, maybe I need a new approach that does not use love as a justification for action. Maybe my approach should represent balance, love for her and me, fairness, and healthy dynamics?

 

If I use that method, then I say something like, "I can take you to the mall for one hour and one hour only. If you disrespect me with a bad attitude, I will not take you again for a long time." Or something similar. Maybe my approach should look at what is best for everyone involved instead of trying to make someone happy? Maybe what makes someone happy--like my daughter--sends them a message that my time or opinions are not important (if I always do as she wants)? Maybe I am teaching her to disrespect me if I am continually kind and accommodating after she has treated me poorly? No good. If the other person does not like the new me, that shows an unhealthy power balance. They are trying to manipulate the situation. I would need to stand my ground to respect myself and love myself. It will make me feel much better in the end.

 

Does that make any sense? A healthy marriage should be similar. Fair and balanced. We watch out for others, and we watch out for ourselves.

 

[sambolini]

A fair, equitable, and amicable divorce.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Don't go off and have an affair. Think about this, do you want to involve another woman into your life, cause her pain all because you want your needs and desires met by someone else as your wife won't and can't be there for you? How is another woman possibly falling in love with you, becoming very emotionally attached to you, caring for you etc., going to help in the long run? All that does is add MORE pain and another person to the mix. Forget how your wife might react, it's just not fair to offer yourself up to someone else when you still want your wife (end game meaning you want her back and hope your marriage can continue), and you'll be devastating someone elses heart.

 

Not planning to have an affair, just need some emotional support of a soft heart to get by. I feel very emotionally weak, and am barely able to deal with my own emotional pain. It could be a dog who puts his/her paw on my hand, but unfortunately a dog would not know what I am going through. It could be any compassionate human being who gives me a hug and that would help tremendously.

 

These videos explain one of the reasons why I'm hurting so bad and feeling like the victim: (because I'm not feeling responsible for such a traumatic event):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoE-BK-YK-c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1zSQYeubn8

[Naively.Sensitive]

It's hard for me to understand why she still holds all the power to decide what your future will be. She is the one who cheated (and it still looks like she's cheating).

 

You're waiting around and she's still fence sitting...

 

Being her doormat isn't helping you/yourself.

 

 

She's STILL manipulating you.

 

Its hard for me to understand that too. I'm not able to understand why I'm not able to break free. The honest truth is that I don't know if she is still cheating or not, but it looks like she is not cheating.

 

She may or not still be manipulating me to stay. Its best to admit what I know or not know. Anything else is just speculation and madness.

 

What I do know for sure is that she did have the affair, that I am terribly broken and that she is not comforting me to the degree that I feel I need, to recover. Those are the facts.

 

In terms of just thinking about myself (for the moment), if I just focus on what I need, I desperately need to heal (with or without her help). I would need that regardless of whether or not I choose to stay or divorce.

 

My questions are:

 

1) What path of my healing would be more beneficial to me? i.e. with her help (as she gradually steps up) or without her help?

2) Obviously, with time, if she does not help me in my recovery, I have to rely only on myself for my own recovery. If that is the case, and assuming I get to that point of recovery, would my relationship with her become irrelevant? If I do get to that point and the relationship does become irrelevant, (that is I don't need her or need anyone for that matter), would it be more prudent to end the relationship with a divorce (excess baggage and material things always require more maintenance)

3) Many schools of thought (including the videos above) suggest that I need to take responsibility for my own well being (which I clearly have not been able to do in this traumatic challenge). What this entails is that the outcome of whatever I do to get to that point should be that I become a loving and joyful person from within, independent of the circumstances around me. I totally get that. Would this better be achieved with (continue to live with her) or without (temporary separation) her help?

 

Please, I don't need more emotionally charged advice. I'm honestly just trying to find the spiritual answers to the above questions, from someone who really knows what spirituality, mindfulness and emotional intelligence really mean and possibly from someone who who has actually walked either or all of these paths before.

[bigman1]

No emotionally charged reply here. You seem to be looking for an answer that let's you get to a point that you want. Answers that point away are emotionally charged.

 

Here is the thing, truth is truth whether it is yelled or whispered.

 

You can't begin to chart a path while you are still realing. Mindfulness, spirituality etc are just words that you are using to prevent views that differ with what you want to hear right now. No problem with it, but be honest. I watched a boxing match where this fighter, who had trained hard and sacrificed to win this fight, was knocked down. He got up and kept taking 'shots to the head. He wanted to be in the fight desperately. He punched, ducked and dodged as good as someone out on their feet could. Still, he needed to be saved from himself because this other fighter was still landing head punches. The fight was over. I saw the same scenario, but the bell rang and the fighter was able to recover and came out competitive. Lastly, I've seen it where the bell saves the fighter, but they never recover and lose in the next round.

 

My point is that you need to step back. Take a bit to clear your head. Quit trying to get back in the fight right now. That is the scary part. You wonder what she might do. What will you do? Who knows. Take a break. Explore the concept of deal breakers. Forgiveness and divorce or separation are not incongruent. Who know, maybe you come back and work this out. If so, good for you. Or, you end it. If so, good for you.

[ShatteredLady]

In my opinion, to YOUR questions...

 

Personal healing & growth is down to YOU! It's all you, you, you. Only you...

 

But you're here for MARRIAGE help.

Most 'thinkers' (I haven't watched your vids yet) aren't conservatively married people with all the complications that brings. Being philosophical about the meaning of life the universe & everything is so much easier when you're not really dealing with family & marrital relationships.

Even the famous TV relationship 'brains' over here can't stay faithful!!

 

Marriage takes BOTH of you. I consider separation preparation for divorce. I think you need to move back into the same bed if you want reconciliation not EVEN more distance between you.

[Naively.Sensitive]

No emotionally charged reply here. You seem to be looking for an answer that let's you get to a point that you want. Answers that point away are emotionally charged.

 

Here is the thing, truth is truth whether it is yelled or whispered.

 

You can't begin to chart a path while you are still realing. Mindfulness, spirituality etc are just words that you are using to prevent views that differ with what you want to hear right now. No problem with it, but be honest. I watched a boxing match where this fighter, who had trained hard and sacrificed to win this fight, was knocked down. He got up and kept taking 'shots to the head. He wanted to be in the fight desperately. He punched, ducked and dodged as good as someone out on their feet could. Still, he needed to be saved from himself because this other fighter was still landing head punches. The fight was over. I saw the same scenario, but the bell rang and the fighter was able to recover and came out competitive. Lastly, I've seen it where the bell saves the fighter, but they never recover and lose in the next round.

 

My point is that you need to step back. Take a bit to clear your head. Quit trying to get back in the fight right now. That is the scary part. You wonder what she might do. What will you do? Who knows. Take a break. Explore the concept of deal breakers. Forgiveness and divorce or separation are not incongruent. Who know, maybe you come back and work this out. If so, good for you. Or, you end it. If so, good for you.

 

Yes, I agree that I don't know what is going to happen in the relationship and I want to exactly be OK with either outcome and not force an outcome, either way.

I just want to be able to focus on myself completely and heal (and not think about what she will or will not do). As long as I'm safe where she is not going to harm me in any physical, financial or other way, I want to be able to take back control of my own life (independent of her).

I should be able to heal, independent of her, should I not? And if so, that is precisely what I'm trying to do. To focus on myself and the questions I posted are pertinent only to that one and only goal.

[Naively.Sensitive]

In my opinion, to YOUR questions...

 

Personal healing & growth is down to YOU! It's all you, you, you. Only you...

 

But you're here for MARRIAGE help.

Most 'thinkers' (I haven't watched your vids yet) aren't conservatively married people with all the complications that brings. Being philosophical about the meaning of life the universe & everything is so much easier when you're not really dealing with family & marrital relationships.

Even the famous TV relationship 'brains' over here can't stay faithful!!

 

Marriage takes BOTH of you. I consider separation preparation for divorce. I think you need to move back into the same bed if you want reconciliation not EVEN more distance between you.

 

I agree 100% with everything you said. We live in a connected universe and its hard to pretend that nothing can affect us outside of our own consciousness and spirituality, yet people who are spiritually strong and "build their spiritual muscle" are able to achieve higher and higher levels of that strength.

 

What I'm suggesting is that both those aspects (personal healing and relationship healing) can independently and simultaneously happen. One does not have to depend on the other if we choose to undertake both.

 

If and when my wife moves back into the bed with me, it may certainly help (or not) heal the relationship, but me sitting around waiting for my wife, for my own well-being is stupidity and foolishness. Thats all I'm saying. My own well-being "should" be in my own hands, not in the hands of my wife. Its aspects of the 180 that I'm trying to incorporate.

[Naively.Sensitive]

In my opinion, to YOUR questions...

 

Personal healing & growth is down to YOU! It's all you, you, you. Only you...

 

But you're here for MARRIAGE help.

Most 'thinkers' (I haven't watched your vids yet) aren't conservatively married people with all the complications that brings. Being philosophical about the meaning of life the universe & everything is so much easier when you're not really dealing with family & marrital relationships.

Even the famous TV relationship 'brains' over here can't stay faithful!!

 

Marriage takes BOTH of you. I consider separation preparation for divorce. I think you need to move back into the same bed if you want reconciliation not EVEN more distance between you.

 

Thanks for that perspective. That is one of the exact things that I wanted to know.... And you gave me your useful perspective. That separation can be (mis)construed as a preparation for divorce. This gives me an idea and I can discuss with me wife if she also feels that way, and if she does and if I'm better off personally healing and developing on my own (by separating), then I can inform and explain to her that the separation should only be viewed as what I intend it to be.

[ShatteredLady]

This is a very hard conversation to have on a forum. It's complex. Better in conversation than written words.

 

I haven't research the guru that you're studying on YouTube. I'm assuming he's in the same form as the Lama....not the cool aid type of spiritual leader.

 

I believe in the strength of my mind & I 'get' the whole 'I'm responsible for my reactions, my perceptions hence the reality of any event'. If I could sit on a mountain or be a guru surrounded by followers...if my environment was controlled in a philosophical way...this would work for me.

 

...BUT I'm not!

 

I can now see where your desire to control your healing & your wife's responses comes from. We DO NOT sit on a mountain philosophizing! Life is a mess. The desire to see ourselves as untimately capable of completely controlling our responses to events leaves us feeling lacking because we are flawed humans & we are greatly effected by other flawed human beings. Unless we want to be a guru in a controlled environment.

 

For example, my most HATED saying "Everything happens for a reason". Look a certain members here....beloved friends shot dead, others physically wrecked for life. Loved ones cold dead bodies held by devastated parents being dragged away by police so the body can be zipped into a bag & driven away to be cut by postmortem.

 

My examples could go on forever. Tell victims they are victimizing themselves by thinking about it!!! We are human. If we didn't strive to find WHY & HOW, if we weren't crippled by pain we wouldn't be human....happier? Yes! Human? No!

 

We're all looking for ways to stop the pain. Be careful of putting too much responsibility for your feelings on yourself. There aren't short cuts. Sometimes we have to walk the miles to understand the journey. Unless we're gurus who can control our environment & surround ourselves with people who look up to us constantly.

[ShatteredLady]

Listen to his "Struggling with sexuality" (sorry I can't link on my computer) I like his "Intelligence is hijacked by hormones". I think you are focusing on what your hormones are telling you that you need to heal & I believe it's given you a partial blindness to the efforts your wife Is putting into closeness.

 

I think 'Love Languages' could be a good read for you & your wife. (Lots of questionnaires etc online)

 

In your threads you describe a lot more giving from your W than is being recognized. You want reconciliation. Denying your ability to control your reactions to her efforts is making that VERY hard. She is still a human being. Your rejection & anger is teaching her NOT to give her love languages to you & you are feeling rejected.

 

Yes! She is wrong. Infidelity is her fault but you have chosen the path of reconciliation. That means you need to work TOGETHER. You have every right to reject her, refuse to hold her hand, react with anger when she tries for affection because it's legitimately how you FEEL at that moment. BUT your expression of your feelings isn't going to get you what you want.

 

You say that you NEED legitimate passion to heal. You can treat her the way you do & she can still give you passion BUT as a woman she will not be able to give you LEGITIMATE, REAL 'porn star' passion. Just as she has lost your trust through her infidelity YOU have lost her trust by your actions (I'm NOT saying your feelings are wrong) your actions are not conducive to the results you want!

 

She made the videos for you. She gave 'hysterical bonding'. If you want the results you want you need to analyse why she turned & deleted the films & moved into the other bedroom.

 

Your marriage doesn't belong to you. Your wife doesn't belong to you. You can't control this!! The marriage belongs to BOTH of you & if you BOTH want it you BOTH need to suck-up some of your gut reactions & pull together & stop punishing because it's how you 'feel' in that moment.

 

If I try to hold my H's hand & his reactions cause me pain it ends-up like pavlovs dog. Reaching for connection causes her pain. She will stop causing herself pain.

[Naively.Sensitive]

This is a very hard conversation to have on a forum. It's complex. Better in conversation than written words.

 

I haven't research the guru that you're studying on YouTube. I'm assuming he's in the same form as the Lama....not the cool aid type of spiritual leader.

 

I believe in the strength of my mind & I 'get' the whole 'I'm responsible for my reactions, my perceptions hence the reality of any event'. If I could sit on a mountain or be a guru surrounded by followers...if my environment was controlled in a philosophical way...this would work for me.

 

...BUT I'm not!

 

I can now see where your desire to control your healing & your wife's responses comes from. We DO NOT sit on a mountain philosophizing! Life is a mess. The desire to see ourselves as untimately capable of completely controlling our responses to events leaves us feeling lacking because we are flawed humans & we are greatly effected by other flawed human beings. Unless we want to be a guru in a controlled environment.

 

For example, my most HATED saying "Everything happens for a reason". Look a certain members here....beloved friends shot dead, others physically wrecked for life. Loved ones cold dead bodies held by devastated parents being dragged away by police so the body can be zipped into a bag & driven away to be cut by postmortem.

 

My examples could go on forever. Tell victims they are victimizing themselves by thinking about it!!! We are human. If we didn't strive to find WHY & HOW, if we weren't crippled by pain we wouldn't be human....happier? Yes! Human? No!

 

We're all looking for ways to stop the pain. Be careful of putting too much responsibility for your feelings on yourself. There aren't short cuts. Sometimes we have to walk the miles to understand the journey. Unless we're gurus who can control our environment & surround ourselves with people who look up to us constantly.

 

I 100% agree with what you are saying.

2 questions:

1) If someone has a choice to NOT feel pain or feel as little pain as they are capable of feeling. Would that (or should that) person make that choice? The point I'm trying to make is about intent. I think the responsibility being mentioned in those videos related to intent. Should we be responsible enough to "intend" to feel less pain?

2) A different word, "capability" is what you seem to be talking about (and I agree that we are all capable to different degrees as human beings.... Don't you think a person born in Ethiopia is probably more capable of dealing with starvation than say another country?). This video explains the difference between responsibility and capability: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p7_20Yi5IU

 

What I'm saying is this:

a) My wife did what she did.

b) I am "responsible" for my own well being and my own healing.

c) Will I be "capable" enough to be able to handle my recovery independently? I don't know.

 

Maybe c) may require me to separate from her or divorce her completely. I don't know. Thats what life is unfolding for me now, and I have to be patient enough to find the answer to that question, but if I don't allow myself to push my human capabilities, I wouldn't know.

 

Its the same as if someone were to suffer a bad accident. Maybe another driver was wreckless and caused the accident. Ultimately, the victim would have to take "responsibility" for their own healing. The insurance company may provide the funds for medical compensation, but who would need to make appointments with the doctors and hospitals? Who would need to develop the strength to tolerate the mental and physical anguish of possible surgery? The victim of course. The wreckless driver may assist by visiting the victim in the hospital but CANNOT develop the strength on the victim's behalf, no matter how good the intentions may be to try.

If the intentions or effort are absent from the wreckless driver to even visit the victim, where does the ultimate responsibility now fall? Doesn't it eventually always fall on the victim? Lets say the doctor gives the best advice, wouldn't it be upto the victim to take that advice?

 

Its sort of what is being said on this thread and forum for my post anyway. People are saying that its ultimately upto me to "take action". So, the responsibility does live with me,.... whether that be in reconciliation or in divorce, I have to decide what is best for me.

If I try reconciliation (which I'm being responsible, simple by choosing at this point), and it does not work for me (if I was only "capable" of so much pain and no more), then it would be my responsibility again to re-evaluate and make a new decision, and change my previous decision from reconciliation to divorce. That is how I look at it and to a large degree, those videos have brought a little more clarity in my mind. I don't intend to go and live in the mountains and live a purely philosophical or yogic life. I don't plan to renounce the world as we know it, which means my human capability would be limited to atleast some degree.

[Naively.Sensitive]

Listen to his "Struggling with sexuality" (sorry I can't link on my computer) I like his "Intelligence is hijacked by hormones". I think you are focusing on what your hormones are telling you that you need to heal & I believe it's given you a partial blindness to the efforts your wife Is putting into closeness.

 

I think 'Love Languages' could be a good read for you & your wife. (Lots of questionnaires etc online)

 

In your threads you describe a lot more giving from your W than is being recognized. You want reconciliation. Denying your ability to control your reactions to her efforts is making that VERY hard. She is still a human being. Your rejection & anger is teaching her NOT to give her love languages to you & you are feeling rejected.

 

Yes! She is wrong. Infidelity is her fault but you have chosen the path of reconciliation. That means you need to work TOGETHER. You have every right to reject her, refuse to hold her hand, react with anger when she tries for affection because it's legitimately how you FEEL at that moment. BUT your expression of your feelings isn't going to get you what you want.

 

You say that you NEED legitimate passion to heal. You can treat her the way you do & she can still give you passion BUT as a woman she will not be able to give you LEGITIMATE, REAL 'porn star' passion. Just as she has lost your trust through her infidelity YOU have lost her trust by your actions (I'm NOT saying your feelings are wrong) your actions are not conducive to the results you want!

 

She made the videos for you. She gave 'hysterical bonding'. If you want the results you want you need to analyse why she turned & deleted the films & moved into the other bedroom.

 

Your marriage doesn't belong to you. Your wife doesn't belong to you. You can't control this!! The marriage belongs to BOTH of you & if you BOTH want it you BOTH need to suck-up some of your gut reactions & pull together & stop punishing because it's how you 'feel' in that moment.

 

If I try to hold my H's hand & his reactions cause me pain it ends-up like pavlovs dog. Reaching for connection causes her pain. She will stop causing herself pain.

 

ShatteredLady,

 

You are spot on! That is exactly what is going on. We seem to be reacting to our own emotions and causing reactions to the other person by our own reactions, in an endless series of causes and effects.

I think this may improve as my wife and I have more and more conversations and with more and more "risks" that we take. Just as I type this message, my wife asked if she could take a nap on the bed next to me and took the initiative to old my hand. I "gladly" complied. So, she shared the bed with me for the first time in 6 months, albeit only for an afternoon nap. That is progress. We also had a brief conversations about our feelings, and I told her that on certain other occassions when I feel tremendous pain, I'm sometimes not able to "force myself" to feel like accepting her hand. She seems to understand my emotional roller coaster more and more and seems more accepting of the possibility that severe trauma can cause this behavior. I tried to explain it to her in very simple terms: "Do you think I WANT to be an emotional roller coaster? Do you think I WANT to cry profusely when in extreme pain?". She normally responds with a slightly skeptical "nod of denial" when I ask her those questions, probably misconstruing a little manipulation in my behavior.

 

Are there times when you are also not "capable" of connecting with your husband as a betrayed wife?

[ShatteredLady]

Quote - "Are there times when you are also not "capable" of connecting with your husband as a betrayed wife?"

 

 

Yes! Of course there are. There's a difference between rejecting or punishing him & really feeling it though. If he really needs a quick cuddle I can do that. I can't hold his face, stare into his eyes, kiss around his face ending with a passionate kiss on the lips. I don't melt into him as I did before but that's coming back slowly.

 

Am I right in faking it sometimes? If I truly believe it ultimately brings us closer together....Yes!

 

My 'issue' is what they call 'triggers'. We can be cuddling & I catch a little line in a song or something said on a TV show & my stomach sinks & my breath catches.

 

One of their 'things' was "What are you wearing?". I was standing in the kitchen in a towel. He came-up to me with 'that' look on his face & smiled "Hey sexy! What ya wearing?". I froze & burst into tears & nealy threw-up!

 

Sometimes I wish I hadn't found those stray emails & read their private conversations. It's haunting!

 

In the early days there were times that I had a complete panic attack when we were intimate. No matter how hard I tried it was an overwhelming physical reaction...nausea, shaking, struggling to catch my breath...this incredible urge to cover my nakedness (which felt like vulnerability) & run away from him.

After the first time I forced myself (in my dressing-gown) to calm myself & try to explain what was happening. He didn't get-it but the next day (after having the night to process it) he was more understanding.

 

I'm now wondering if I'm doing right or wrong. I asked my H if OW had contacted him over the holidays. He answered but then said, "What does it matter? We're over all of that now aren't we!". Ugh!!! No 'We're' NOT!!

 

Does the fact that he thinks that mean I've rug-swept?

 

So now I'm stuck! Things are definitely better but I'm still crying a lot & having PTSD symptoms. My H suffers from depression. Usually very self deprecating depression. I feel that he can't full grasp how much damage he's done. It will cause him a LOT of pain if I truly explain the devastation, the life changing carnage he's inflicted on me.

I thought he knew so keeping quiet was ok because he was suffering & I'd be rubbing salt into his wounds....now I know he doesn't get-it & isn't suffering anymore I'm reassessing my actions. I'm feeling resentment...which is a very new (unpleasant) emotion for me. I think it will be destructive.

 

To be honest I'm paralyzed! I have all of these reasons to hit him hard with the truth AND reasons to struggle to let it go now. This time of year is my first anniversary of it happening so I'm triggering a LOT. I now know how he was judging me & the things I did to celebrate for my family last year. I know the horrible things he said so 'traditions' (that my kids need) are very hard for me.

 

I read the emails & discovered the truth (finally! After a lot of trickle truth & gas lighting) in August. He thinks it's been a long time. I feel like it's no time at all.

 

I'm not the best person to take that kind of advise from. I'm still a mess. It's complicated because she was his ex-mistress from 12 years ago & I believe getting back in contact with her was partly a passive aggressive punishment for me!

[HereNorThere]

Quote - "Are there times when you are also not "capable" of connecting with your husband as a betrayed wife?"

 

 

Yes! Of course there are. There's a difference between rejecting or punishing him & really feeling it though. If he really needs a quick cuddle I can do that. I can't hold his face, stare into his eyes, kiss around his face ending with a passionate kiss on the lips. I don't melt into him as I did before but that's coming back slowly.

 

Am I right in faking it sometimes? If I truly believe it ultimately brings us closer together....Yes!

 

My 'issue' is what they call 'triggers'. We can be cuddling & I catch a little line in a song or something said on a TV show & my stomach sinks & my breath catches.

 

One of their 'things' was "What are you wearing?". I was standing in the kitchen in a towel. He came-up to me with 'that' look on his face & smiled "Hey sexy! What ya wearing?". I froze & burst into tears & nealy threw-up!

 

Sometimes I wish I hadn't found those stray emails & read their private conversations. It's haunting!

 

In the early days there were times that I had a complete panic attack when we were intimate. No matter how hard I tried it was an overwhelming physical reaction...nausea, shaking, struggling to catch my breath...this incredible urge to cover my nakedness (which felt like vulnerability) & run away from him.

After the first time I forced myself (in my dressing-gown) to calm myself & try to explain what was happening. He didn't get-it but the next day (after having the night to process it) he was more understanding.

 

I'm now wondering if I'm doing right or wrong. I asked my H if OW had contacted him over the holidays. He answered but then said, "What does it matter? We're over all of that now aren't we!". Ugh!!! No 'We're' NOT!!

 

Does the fact that he thinks that mean I've rug-swept?

 

So now I'm stuck! Things are definitely better but I'm still crying a lot & having PTSD symptoms. My H suffers from depression. Usually very self deprecating depression. I feel that he can't full grasp how much damage he's done. It will cause him a LOT of pain if I truly explain the devastation, the life changing carnage he's inflicted on me.

I thought he knew so keeping quiet was ok because he was suffering & I'd be rubbing salt into his wounds....now I know he doesn't get-it & isn't suffering anymore I'm reassessing my actions. I'm feeling resentment...which is a very new (unpleasant) emotion for me. I think it will be destructive.

 

To be honest I'm paralyzed! I have all of these reasons to hit him hard with the truth AND reasons to struggle to let it go now. This time of year is my first anniversary of it happening so I'm triggering a LOT. I now know how he was judging me & the things I did to celebrate for my family last year. I know the horrible things he said so 'traditions' (that my kids need) are very hard for me.

 

I read the emails & discovered the truth (finally! After a lot of trickle truth & gas lighting) in August. He thinks it's been a long time. I feel like it's no time at all.

 

I'm not the best person to take that kind of advise from. I'm still a mess. It's complicated because she was his ex-mistress from 12 years ago & I believe getting back in contact with her was partly a passive aggressive punishment for me!

 

Well, I think that's enough Internet for me today. That's one of the saddest things I've ever read on here. I think I need a Xanax and a therapist appointment now. So sorry that OP and yourself are going through something this absolutely devastating. I really, really wonder if it's really worth it in the long run. It sounds like a slow, agonizing death that's being drawn out over time and definitely something I wouldn't be able to do. Sometimes you have to run towards the pain and get it over with. I just couldn't advise anyone to keep subjecting themselves to these kind of triggers for the rest of their life. I do hope things get better for you, but I just can't see how they will if you're still in the same environment with the person who put you through all of this. You will both be in my thoughts tonight.