Christians and War

[Jhoanna11]

Unfortunately, wars always will be on our planet because people are unhappy. No matter what religion people follow they fight when they think someone is not right. So, the question is why people respond when someone is not right? Maybe there is nothing to do with the religion but ego.

[Timshel]

Jimineny....God....Bible....war.....Religion.

 

Biblicaly, war is prevalent and also answered.

 

Deuteronomy 32:35 It is mine to avenge; I will repay. In due time their foot will slip; their day of disaster is near and their doom rushes upon them."

 

Personally, I think that war/violence is indicative of ignorance. I believe that the more a person/society feels the need for vengeance or violence in order to 'prove' worth or value to a belief/moral.....renders it less than and weak.

 

I think that self defense against animal behavior is different than being offensive and offensive for reasons that are not in defense of self, family and well being.

[BetheButterfly]

Hi I forgot about it too. I'm glad you reminded me, because it ties in with something I was writing about in another thread.

 

No probs. I forgot again lol.

 

I honestly don't know how I would react in such a terrible situation. If I did react by killing them in order to preserve my own life, the criminal law of my country wouldn't punish me. I don't think anybody I know would judge me for it either. I wouldn't judge somebody for killing if that was what it took (by the standards of a reasonable person taking into account the panicky atmosphere of such a situation) for them to protect their life.

Understood. Jesus Christ however allowed the Romans to kill him. He could have defeated the Romans, but he didn't. He also allowed his followers to be killed for him later on. From what history says, the apostles who walked and talked with Jesus were persecuted and killed, except for John who was expelled to Patmos.

 

 

But they refused to renounce Christianity, and for that they were put to death. They martyred themselves - and it was through their martyrdom that Christianity gained in popularity. "People are willing to die for this! There must be something in it..."

True.

 

In the same way, Jesus died in order to fulfil a number of prophecies - even though, as he claimed, he could have at any time brought God's army down to help him. He told one of his disciples so after that disciple sliced off the ear of one of the people who came to arrest him. Put your sword away - he who lives by the sword dies by it, etc.

Yep.

 

However he told them that in the context of "this prophecy must play out". Earlier he had told them to buy swords. They showed him that they already had two swords and he said "that's enough". I think there's a theory that some of his group had to be visibly armed to ensure he would be arrested and that's why he wanted them to get swords.?

Jesus is very focused on fulfilling prophecy.

 

However, if Jesus were entirely against self defence wouldn't he have rebuked those disciples for already being armed? Wouldn't he at least question them for being armed? Why miss an opportunity to teach a lesson about not being armed

I don't think so. The reason is because he wanted to fulfill the prophecy about being numbered with the transgressors (Isaiah 53). As for teaching a lesson, Jesus did teach the apostles not to commit violence when he rebuked Peter for cutting Malchus' ear off (John 18:10-11).

 

 

My guess is that the teachings of Jesus were about encouraging people to use peaceful means where possible, but that he recognised there were situations in which people would require to be armed and to use those arms...undesirable as such actions are.

The thing is, the apostles who walked and talked with Jesus didn't arm themselves after they received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2). They endured persecution but you never hear again in the Bible of them physically trying to defend themselves with weapons after Jesus rebuked Peter. They did flee persecution, but they didn't fight their persecutors.

 

When Saul was persecuting Christians (Acts 8:3), we don't hear of them protecting themselves with weapons. If Jesus had wanted them to defend themselves with arms, they would have possibly killed Saul when he was persecuting them.

 

Let's think of another scenario. Jesus taught that he came to earth in order to fulfil prophecies that would result in the salvation mankind. He lived for long enough, during those violent times, to ensure the prophecies were filled. What do you think would have happened if somebody had attempted to kill him before he had the chance to fulfil that prophecy? Do you really think he'd have allowed them to?

When he was threatened with stoning, he hid himself. He didn't threaten them with violence:

 

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds." - John 8:58-59 (NIV)

 

If he had special, magical, powers then perhaps he was able to influence his environment and the behaviour of people in it to ensure that he didn't, at any point, have to kill in self defence...but I think if there had been a situation where he had to kill another person in order to ensure that the prophecies were fulfilled, he would have done it. Don't you?

 

No, I don't think so. The reason is because that would have been very hypocritical of him, to command his followers to love both neighbors and enemies and then have killed somebody. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for being hypocrites. Jesus isn't a hypocrite at all.

 

When Jesus Christ comes back, he will kill wicked people. However, his return will show that he is not a mere mortal like I am, like humans are, but rather is Immanuel (God with us). Also, humans will not be killing other humans when Jesus returns. Angels will.

 

"The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear." - Matthew 13:41-43 (NIV)

[joystickd]

No probs. I forgot again lol.

 

Understood. Jesus Christ however allowed the Romans to kill him. He could have defeated the Romans, but he didn't. He also allowed his followers to be killed for him later on. From what history says, the apostles who walked and talked with Jesus were persecuted and killed, except for John who was expelled to Patmos.

 

 

True.

 

Yep.

 

Jesus is very focused on fulfilling prophecy.

 

I don't think so. The reason is because he wanted to fulfill the prophecy about being numbered with the transgressors (Isaiah 53). As for teaching a lesson, Jesus did teach the apostles not to commit violence when he rebuked Peter for cutting Malchus' ear off (John 18:10-11).

 

 

The thing is, the apostles who walked and talked with Jesus didn't arm themselves after they received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2). They endured persecution but you never hear again in the Bible of them physically trying to defend themselves with weapons after Jesus rebuked Peter. They did flee persecution, but they didn't fight their persecutors.

 

When Saul was persecuting Christians (Acts 8:3), we don't hear of them protecting themselves with weapons. If Jesus had wanted them to defend themselves with arms, they would have possibly killed Saul when he was persecuting them.

 

When he was threatened with stoning, he hid himself. He didn't threaten them with violence:

 

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds." - John 8:58-59 (NIV)

 

 

 

No, I don't think so. The reason is because that would have been very hypocritical of him, to command his followers to love both neighbors and enemies and then have killed somebody. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for being hypocrites. Jesus isn't a hypocrite at all.

 

When Jesus Christ comes back, he will kill wicked people. However, his return will show that he is not a mere mortal like I am, like humans are, but rather is Immanuel (God with us). Also, humans will not be killing other humans when Jesus returns. Angels will.

 

"The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear." - Matthew 13:41-43 (NIV)

Just focusing on the New Testament ignores the brutality that God approved. Deuteronomy 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

 

I know I know Jesus came and changed the rules. That's the problem with some Christians they pick and choose things that fit their beliefs and miss other things.

[BetheButterfly]

Just focusing on the New Testament ignores the brutality that God approved. Deuteronomy 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

 

Understood. However, I don't follow Jesus Christ because of the brutality God approved before Jesus Christ. I follow Jesus Christ because he commands people to love neighbors and enemies and gave the Ultimate Example. While I'm not perfect and sadly fall into pits then repent, I am slowly learning how to be more like Christ ... it's a life lesson, really.

 

I know I know Jesus came and changed the rules.

 

It is true. Jesus Christ brought the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31; Luke 22:20).

 

That's the problem with some Christians they pick and choose things that fit their beliefs and miss other things.

 

At least Christians who truly obey Jesus' commands to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies, and obey the Golden Rule (Luke 6:31) don't kill, torture, rape, enslave, and steal from other people...

 

Sadly, it is true that many Christians have disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love. Have you ever read or listened to Frederick Douglass' autobiography? It tore me up inside.

 

I so agree with Frederick Douglass' quote here: (I boldened some.)

 

“...I therefore hate the corrupt, slaveholding, women-whipping, cradle-plundering, partial and hypocritical Christianity of the land... I look upon it as the climax of all misnomers, the boldest of all frauds, and the grossest of all libels. Never was there a clearer case of 'stealing the livery of the court of heaven to serve the devil in.' I am filled with unutterable loathing when I contemplate the religious pomp and show, together with the horrible inconsistencies, which every where surround me. We have men-stealers for ministers, women-whippers for missionaries, and cradle-plunderers for church members. The man who wields the blood-clotted cowskin during the week fills the pulpit on Sunday, and claims to be a minister of the meek and lowly Jesus. . . . The slave auctioneer’s bell and the church-going bell chime in with each other, and the bitter cries of the heart-broken slave are drowned in the religious shouts of his pious master. Revivals of religion and revivals in the slave-trade go hand in hand together. The slave prison and the church stand near each other. The clanking of fetters and the rattling of chains in the prison, and the pious psalm and solemn prayer in the church, may be heard at the same time. The dealers in the bodies of men erect their stand in the presence of the pulpit, and they mutually help each other. The dealer gives his blood-stained gold to support the pulpit, and the pulpit, in return, covers his infernal business with the garb of Christianity. Here we have religion and robbery the allies of each other—devils dressed in angels’ robes, and hell presenting the semblance of paradise.”

― Frederick Douglass, Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass

 

 

Frederick Douglass was a Christian. Elsewhere, he states: "Between the Christianity of this land and the Christianity of Christ, I recognize the widest possible difference,"

God In America: People: Frederick Douglass | PBS

 

He realized that sadly, people who identify as Christians don't always obey Jesus Christ.

[joystickd]

Understood. However, I don't follow Jesus Christ because of the brutality God approved before Jesus Christ. I follow Jesus Christ because he commands people to love neighbors and enemies and gave the Ultimate Example. While I'm not perfect and sadly fall into pits then repent, I am slowly learning how to be more like Christ ... it's a life lesson, really.

 

 

 

It is true. Jesus Christ brought the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31; Luke 22:20).

 

 

 

At least Christians who truly obey Jesus' commands to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies, and obey the Golden Rule (Luke 6:31) don't kill, torture, rape, enslave, and steal from other people...

 

Sadly, it is true that many Christians have disobeyed Jesus Christ's commands to love. Have you ever read or listened to Frederick Douglass' autobiography? It tore me up inside.

 

I so agree with Frederick Douglass' quote here: (I boldened some.)

 

“...I therefore hate the corrupt, slaveholding, women-whipping, cradle-plundering, partial and hypocritical Christianity of the land... I look upon it as the climax of all misnomers, the boldest of all frauds, and the grossest of all libels. Never was there a clearer case of 'stealing the livery of the court of heaven to serve the devil in.' I am filled with unutterable loathing when I contemplate the religious pomp and show, together with the horrible inconsistencies, which every where surround me. We have men-stealers for ministers, women-whippers for missionaries, and cradle-plunderers for church members. The man who wields the blood-clotted cowskin during the week fills the pulpit on Sunday, and claims to be a minister of the meek and lowly Jesus. . . . The slave auctioneer’s bell and the church-going bell chime in with each other, and the bitter cries of the heart-broken slave are drowned in the religious shouts of his pious master. Revivals of religion and revivals in the slave-trade go hand in hand together. The slave prison and the church stand near each other. The clanking of fetters and the rattling of chains in the prison, and the pious psalm and solemn prayer in the church, may be heard at the same time. The dealers in the bodies of men erect their stand in the presence of the pulpit, and they mutually help each other. The dealer gives his blood-stained gold to support the pulpit, and the pulpit, in return, covers his infernal business with the garb of Christianity. Here we have religion and robbery the allies of each other—devils dressed in angels’ robes, and hell presenting the semblance of paradise.”

― Frederick Douglass, Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass

 

 

Frederick Douglass was a Christian. Elsewhere, he states: "Between the Christianity of this land and the Christianity of Christ, I recognize the widest possible difference,"

God In America: People: Frederick Douglass | PBS

 

He realized that sadly, people who identify as Christians don't always obey Jesus Christ.

 

It's not just about obeying Jesus Christ. If a person thinks it's just that then they are truly missing what Christianity is about.

[TheFinalWord]

Great question.

 

Many people sincerely believe they are Christian yet go off to war. Here in the USA it has been that way ever since Christians fought against Native Americans.

 

So, when did Christians start disobeying Jesus' clear commands and example? After all, Jesus Christ endured torture and crucifixion and went above and beyond by asking the Father to forgive them - Luke 23:34.

 

I am curious as to what other people think about the topic and why? Thanks.

 

Yes our European ancestors killed Native Americans, however, Native Americans also brutally killed one another. Furthermore, every country can go back into their history and find slaughter of the innocents so to speak. USA is no better or worse in this regard.

 

Where we are different is the rationale for our war: elimination of tyrannical government and religious freedom (Declaration of Independence: A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.). None of us would be able to sit here and even criticize war if not for freedom of speech. It's cliche', but freedom isn't free. Go to N. Korea and speak against the great leader and you will disappear the next day. Many of our brothers and sisters in Christ cannot even claim Jesus publicly in many nations of the world or they will be imprisoned. You speak of Stephen and Paul, both were killed because they did not have freedom of speech. Just the other day there were reports of an atheist receiving 2000 lashes for tweeting against Islam in Saudi Arabia.

 

There are causes in which war is justified. If Jesus is against war 100%, ask Him why He will personally slaughter half of the planet in order to establish his Kingdom. Man's warfare will look like a joke compared to the Day of the Lord. Listen to Isaiah without any presuppostions or personal desires about God and war. God will use war when the time is right.

 

During the first dispensation Jesus came as a sacrifice. During the second he is coming as a King. He isn't going to be granted rule by a large majority of the citizens of the planet. Only those that willingly accept Christ as King will welcome Christ. The rest will be like they are now and will be subject to the Kingdom by force. There's a reason the disciples did not understand why Jesus did not destroy the Romans and take the throne of David. They didn't understand there would be the opportunity for gentiles and Jews to willingly accept Christ as King. But that period of time will come in which Christ takes His throne by force. Only once Christ is King will "they beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

Edited February 28, 2016 by TheFinalWord

[BetheButterfly]

Yes our European ancestors killed Native Americans, however, Native Americans also brutally killed one another.

 

Were the Native Americans who brutally killed one another obeying Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors and enemies? Nope. Most didn't even accept or know about Jesus Christ, whereas many European colonists claimed to be Christian.

 

Furthermore, every country can go back into their history and find slaughter of the innocents so to speak. USA is no better or worse in this regard.

True. However, Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors and enemies still stand, no matter what countries do. His disciples who walked and talked with him for example didn't fight with physical weapons the Romans who invaded Judea. Rather, Peter later received a vision that led him to enter a Roman's home and explain to his family about Christ (Acts 10).

 

 

Where we are different is the rationale for our war: elimination of tyrannical government and religious freedom (Declaration of Independence: A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.). None of us would be able to sit here and even criticize war if not for freedom of speech.

This is not taking into consideration the fact that we don't know what-if scenario outcomes. If Christians were more obedient to Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors and love enemies, it is very possible that there would be less "need" for bloodshed and more hunger for what Christians are supposed to have: Love.

 

 

It's cliche', but freedom isn't free. Go to N. Korea and speak against the great leader and you will disappear the next day.

Some Christians risk their lives to tell North Koreans about Jesus, which is in obedience to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ didn't command his followers to kill enemies, but rather tell them about him.

 

Many of our brothers and sisters in Christ cannot even claim Jesus publicly in many nations of the world or they will be imprisoned. You speak of Stephen and Paul, both were killed because they did not have freedom of speech. Just the other day there were reports of an atheist receiving 2000 lashes for tweeting against Islam in Saudi Arabia.

Stephen and Paul are both true examples of what a Christian is. Please note how they didn't kill their enemies; they were killed for obeying Jesus Christ.

 

There are causes in which war is justified.

I'm sure that's what the Crusaders, who killed and robbed Jews, Muslims, and other Christians, believed.

 

If Jesus is against war 100%, ask Him why He will personally slaughter half of the planet in order to establish his Kingdom.

Because He is God incarnate. We aren't though. What Jesus does when He returns does not negate His commands to His followers, which include loving neighbors as oneself and loving enemies. Jesus gave the Ultimate Example of loving enemies on the cross. Please note that he did not kill one enemy. Please note that his disciples who walked and talked with him did not kill one person. They didn't even kill Saul when Saul was persecuting Jewish Christians.

 

Man's warfare will look like a joke compared to the Day of the Lord. Listen to Isaiah without any presuppostions or personal desires about God and war. God will use war when the time is right.

 

During the first dispensation Jesus came as a sacrifice. During the second he is coming as a King. He isn't going to be granted rule by a large majority of the citizens of the planet. Only those that willingly accept Christ as King will welcome Christ. The rest will be like they are now and will be subject to the Kingdom by force. There's a reason the disciples did not understand why Jesus did not destroy the Romans and take the throne of David. They didn't understand there would be the opportunity for gentiles and Jews to willingly accept Christ as King. But that period of time will come in which Christ takes His throne by force. Only once Christ is King will "they beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore."

Isaiah 2:4 is one of my many favorite verses in Isaiah.

 

None of what Jesus Christ will do when He returns negates his commands for his followers to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies. Again, please note the example of his disciples who walked and talked with him. Did they fight against the Romans who were occupying Judea? Nope. Did they fight against the Jewish leaders who were persecuting them? Nope. Rather, they endured persecution. They loved both neighbors and enemies. They obeyed Jesus Christ.

[TheFinalWord]

This is not taking into consideration the fact that we don't know what-if scenario outcomes. If Christians were more obedient to Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors and love enemies, it is very possible that there would be less "need" for bloodshed and more hunger for what Christians are supposed to have: Love.

 

There really is no what-if scenarios. We have millennia of tyrannical rule that was used to oppress people. Prior to the signing of the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress prayed and requested peaceful dissolution from Great Britain. They definitely sought Christ.

F

irst Prayer of the Continental Congress, 1774

O Lord our Heavenly Father, high and mighty King of kings, and Lord of lords, who dost from thy throne behold all the dwellers on earth and reignest with power supreme and uncontrolled over all the Kingdoms, Empires and Governments; l

ook down in mercy, we beseech Thee, on these our American States, who have fled to Thee from the rod of the oppressor and thrown themselves on Thy gracious protection, desiring to be henceforth dependent only on Thee.

To Thee have they appealed for the righteousness of their cause; to Thee do they now look up for that countenance and support, which Thou alone canst give. Take them, therefore, Heavenly Father, under Thy nurturing care; give them wisdom in Council and valor in the field; defeat the malicious designs of our cruel adversaries; convince them of the unrighteousness of their Cause and if they persist in their sanguinary purposes, of own unerring justice, sounding in their hearts, constrain them to drop the weapons of war from their unnerved hands in the day of battle!

Be Thou present, O God of wisdom, and direct the councils of this honorable assembly; enable them to settle things on the best and surest foundation.

That the scene of blood may be speedily closed; that order, harmony and peace may be effectually restored, and truth and justice, religion and piety, prevail and flourish amongst the people.

Preserve the health of their bodies and vigor of their minds; shower down on them and the millions they here represent, such temporal blessings as Thou seest expedient for them in this world and crown them with everlasting glory in the world to come. All this we ask in the name and through the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son and our Savior.

Amen.

Reverend Jacob Duché

Rector of Christ Church of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania

September 7, 1774, 9 o’clock a.

m

. [2]

Peaceful resolve wasn't given, which fits the overwhelming historical narrative of tyrannical government. They (our American forefathers) had to fight for their independence. It's not really hypothetical.

 

None of what Jesus Christ will do when He returns negates his commands for his followers to love neighbors as oneself and love enemies. Again, please note the example of his disciples who walked and talked with him. Did they fight against the Romans who were occupying Judea? Nope. Did they fight against the Jewish leaders who were persecuting them? Nope. Rather, they endured persecution. They loved both neighbors and enemies. They obeyed Jesus Christ.

 

I'm not saying to not love people. But it is apparent in the bible, God is not totally against war. Paul said to live in peace, as far as it is possible.

 

The main purpose of the disciples was to spread the gospel. However, we do note many times that Paul referenced government as God's instrument for wrath.

 

Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

 

Cornelius was also the first gentile to receive the gospel and he was a soldier. Peter said nothing to him of giving up his life as a soldier, in fact the bible states he was a godly man. However, in other cases, the apostles did tell the unsaved to give up their lifestyle, such as those engaged in sorcery.

 

At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.

Paul also compares Christians to soldiers. We don't see him comparing effective Christians to prostitutes, or other sinful activities. He does compare us to soldiers though. It would be odd to use a sinful example as a template for how to live the Christian life. To me, it's not that cut and dry that God is against Christians becoming soldiers and fighting in wars. Each situation needs to be examined.

Edited March 1, 2016 by TheFinalWord

[BetheButterfly]

There really is no what-if scenarios. We have millennia of tyrannical rule that was used to oppress people.

 

Sadly, some of that tryannical rule is a part of Christian history, since some kings who claimed to be Christian oppressed other people of different beliefs. They did not obey Jesus Christ's commands to love neighbors as oneself. This continued in the USA as some Christian Americans disobeyed Jesus' commands to love by killing or expelling the Natives, forcing them onto reservations. While Native American people didn't typically call themselves "Christian", most people who persecuted them did. Now, only around 1% of the American population is Native. Some Christian Americans also disobeyed the Golden Rule (Luke 6:31) by enslaving people and abusing them.

 

Prior to the signing of the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress prayed and requested peaceful dissolution from Great Britain. They definitely sought Christ.

F

irst Prayer of the Continental Congress, 1774

 

That is a nice prayer. However, truly following Jesus Christ is more than just praying; following Jesus Christ includes obeying His commands.

 

Did the disciples who walked and talked with Jesus Christ pray and fight the Romans and their countrymen, or did they pray and witness to the Romans and their countrymen? Did they persecute, or did they suffer persecution?

 

The USA is not the foundation of Christianity by any means. Jesus Christ is the foundation of Christianity. His disciples obeyed Jesus Christ, and so should American Christians, if we truly love Him (John 14:15).

 

Peaceful resolve wasn't given, which fits the overwhelming historical narrative of tyrannical government. They (our American forefathers) had to fight for their independence. It's not really hypothetical.

Do you believe the disciples of Jesus Christ failed because they had to fight for their independence from the Roman Empire, but didn't?

 

 

I'm not saying to not love people. But it is apparent in the bible, God is not totally against war.

War is apparent before Jesus Christ came.When Jesus Christ returns, He "will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil." (Matthew 13:41b) However, Jesus Christ gave us commands to obey in the meantime, and that includes loving neighbors as oneself (Matthew 22:35-40; Luke 10:25-37) and loving enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37).

 

Paul said to live in peace, as far as it is possible.

True. After his remarkable conversion, he never killed anybody, though he was persecuted in many places. He never killed in self-defense; he fled. This showed his radical transformation! Before, he was physically violent by overseeing Stephen's death and taking men and women to prison (Acts 8:1-3).

 

The main purpose of the disciples was to spread the gospel.

They obeyed all the commands of Jesus Christ, which includes spreading the Gospel (Matthew 28:18-20). They also obeyed His commands to love neighbors and enemies.

 

However, we do note many times that Paul referenced government as God's instrument for wrath.

 

Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

Did Paul write that about a Christian government, or a pagan government?

 

Cornelius was also the first gentile to receive the gospel and he was a soldier. Peter said nothing to him of giving up his life as a soldier, in fact the bible states he was a godly man. However, in other cases, the apostles did tell the unsaved to give up their lifestyle, such as those engaged in sorcery.

 

At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.

Do you know what happened to Cornelius after he and his family were saved? Do you know if they were persecuted by the pagan Roman Empire? We know Paul and the apostles of Jesus Christ were killed, with the exception of John who was put on the island of Patmos. Is there any text that talks about what happened to Cornelius and his family?

 

 

Paul also compares Christians to soldiers.

Paul talks about spiritual armor. Spiritual armor is not physical armor, though the Crusaders must have though otherwise.) Paul makes it clear that "our struggles is not against flesh and blood" which is incredibly important. What does that mean to you? (I boldened some.)

 

"Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

 

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

 

Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people." - Ephesians 6:11-18 (NIV)

 

We don't see him comparing effective Christians to prostitutes, or other sinful activities. He does compare us to soldiers though. It would be odd to use a sinful example as a template for how to live the Christian life. To me, it's not that cut and dry that God is against Christians becoming soldiers and fighting in wars. Each situation needs to be examined.

If we truly want to obey Jesus Christ, we should obey His commands, like His chosen apostles and Paul did. They obeyed Jesus Christ, even when persecuted. They didn't kill anybody while following Jesus Christ. Remember, the USA is not the Foundation of Christianity. Jesus Christ is, and obeying His commands is how we show Him that we love Him.

[SSJROMANCE]

This reminds me of a cartoon. It showed the earth in the background with huge mushroom clouds (nukes going off) all over the planet and an alien ship with two aliens. The one alien said what is happening on that planet? The other says it's humans fighting over whose religion is the most peaceful.

 

The world would be a better place if there was no religion. All religion is is an attempt to control and brainwash your mind with a lot of phony boloney. How's it working for everyone?

[phillyisfun]

Many people sincerely believe they are Christian yet go off to war.

 

This is quite an inflammatory statement.

 

A person is a Christian when they repent of sin and profess Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Saviour. THAT is what defines a Christian. The implication that anyone who serves in the military during wartime only "thinks" they are a Christian is at best, misguided and at worst, unbiblical.

 

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God...." John 1:1

 

Jesus IS God in the flesh - all of Him, including the God of the Old Testament. Jesus commanded us to do more than just love each other, though that is certainly vital. He commanded us to be holy as he is holy. He, in His own words, did NOT come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.

 

It is both dangerous and arrogant to declare that everyone who has participated in a war is not a "real" Christian. Not to mention not biblical at all.

 

I despise war, and I pray that there will come a day that it no longer exist. But my sentiment is not doctrine. My emotion does not define Christianity.

[joystickd]

This is quite an inflammatory statement.

 

A person is a Christian when they repent of sin and profess Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Saviour. THAT is what defines a Christian. The implication that anyone who serves in the military during wartime only "thinks" they are a Christian is at best, misguided and at worst, unbiblical.

 

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God...." John 1:1

 

Jesus IS God in the flesh - all of Him, including the God of the Old Testament. Jesus commanded us to do more than just love each other, though that is certainly vital. He commanded us to be holy as he is holy. He, in His own words, did NOT come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.

 

It is both dangerous and arrogant to declare that everyone who has participated in a war is not a "real" Christian. Not to mention not biblical at all.

 

I despise war, and I pray that there will come a day that it no longer exist. But my sentiment is not doctrine. My emotion does not define Christianity.

 

Lol! I aspirated laughing at this. No one is saying a real Christian believes in war but a real Christian doesn't pick and choose. God wanted Israel to exterminate all non Hebrew people so they can have their land. That was the WORD. Throwing someone in a bottomless pit. The thing that pisses me off is this non violent approach Christians want to portray. It's BS. Just a way to make you feel superior to non Christians.

[BetheButterfly]

This is quite an inflammatory statement.

 

You disagree that many "people sincerely believe they are Christian yet go off to war."?

 

A person is a Christian when they repent of sin and profess Jesus Christ to be their Lord and Saviour. THAT is what defines a Christian. The implication that anyone who serves in the military during wartime only "thinks" they are a Christian is at best, misguided and at worst, unbiblical.

I am not saying they are not Christians. I sincerely believe that I am a Christian yet I disagree with war and am a pacifist because of Jesus Christ.

 

 

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS God...." John 1:1

Was Cain supposed to kill Abel? That was the first bloodshed. Physical war includes bloodshed.

 

Jesus IS God in the flesh - all of Him, including the God of the Old Testament. Jesus commanded us to do more than just love each other, though that is certainly vital. He commanded us to be holy as he is holy. He, in His own words, did NOT come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it.

Did Jesus Christ also command us to love our neighbors as oneself (Matthew 22:35-40; Luke 10:25-37) and love enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37)? If yes, how does killing = loving enemies? Did Jesus command His disciples who walked and talked with Him to kill the Romans or their Jewish countrymen who rejected Him?

 

Jesus Christ gave the Ultimate Example of Love, when He died on the cross for our sins, even for His enemies. As Paul (who killed nobody after Jesus confronted him) so beautifully stated:

 

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!- Romans 5:8-10 (NIV)

 

Jesus is returning, which will prove that He is God incarnate. Until then, we are to obey His commands, whether or not we agree with them.

 

It is both dangerous and arrogant to declare that everyone who has participated in a war is not a "real" Christian.

I never said that. Please do not put words in my mouth. Again, I sincerely believe I am a Christian yet am against war. I'm a pacifist because of Jesus Christ.

Not to mention not biblical at all.

Please quote where Jesus Christ told His followers to go to physical war.

 

I despise war,

Why? (I do too, because Jesus commanded love even for enemies.)

 

and I pray that there will come a day that it no longer exist.

After Jesus returns and His angels destroy the wicked, then war won't exist:

 

"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear." - Matthew 13:40-43 (NIV)

 

 

But my sentiment is not doctrine. My emotion does not define Christianity.

Nobody's sentiment or emotion defines Christianity. Jesus Christ is the One who defines Christianity. His commands were "good enough" for His disciples who died without killing others, and they're "good enough" for American Christians if they want to obey them. In my opinion, Jesus Christ's commands are more than just "good enough"; they are the best!!!

[BetheButterfly]

Lol! I aspirated laughing at this. No one is saying a real Christian believes in war but a real Christian doesn't pick and choose. God wanted Israel to exterminate all non Hebrew people so they can have their land. That was the WORD. Throwing someone in a bottomless pit.

 

The Hebrews before Jesus came weren't Christians. When Jesus Christ came, some Jewish people followed Him, but others didn't. The Jewish people who followed Him, including His faithful apostles who walked and talked with Him, didn't go to physical war against other people. Rather, they were persecuted as they obeyed Jesus Christ.

 

The thing that pisses me off is this non violent approach Christians want to portray. It's BS.

Obviously, there are Christians who don't believe in the "non violent approach" so I guess only the ones who do bother you, like me? For the record, you don't bother me, no matter what you believe. I respect your right to believe what you want.

 

Does the fact that Jesus Christ didn't kill anybody annoy you? Does the fact that His disciples who walked and talked with Him didn't kill anybody annoy you too?

 

You can call whatever you want negative things. Again, you are entitled to believe what you want same as I do and everybody else. Peace

 

Just a way to make you feel superior to non Christians.

I don't feel superior to Non-Christians at all. Why would I? I 100% believe that Christians, including myself: "if only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied" (1 Corinthians 15:19 NIV)

[BetheButterfly]

This reminds me of a cartoon. It showed the earth in the background with huge mushroom clouds (nukes going off) all over the planet and an alien ship with two aliens. The one alien said what is happening on that planet? The other says it's humans fighting over whose religion is the most peaceful.

 

It's sad, isn't it, how people fight and kill each other even over religion.

 

The world would be a better place if there was no religion. All religion is is an attempt to control and brainwash your mind with a lot of phony boloney.

 

I disagree with that, but I respect your right to believe what you do.

 

 

How's it working for everyone?

 

Jesus Christ gives me love, peace, joy, and more! He brought my husband and me together, and He has kept my parents together for 40 years and going! He is the One I run to with my problems, my hurts, and my joys. Of course, my Atheist friends say He is my "imaginary friend" lol, but He is just as real to me as my parents are. :bunny: He is my Savior, Redeemer, and my Friend, regardless of what other people say about Him or me for following Him!!!

[BetheButterfly]

Jesus Christ is the One who defines Christianity. His commands were "good enough" for His disciples who died without killing others, and they're "good enough" for American Christians if they want to obey them. In my opinion, Jesus Christ's commands are more than just "good enough"; they are the best!!!

 

I was quoting "good enough" from this song.

 

"It makes me love everybody, and it's good enough for me" is one of my favorite lines! This line is one reason why I believe Jesus Christ's commands are the best! The world needs more love and less hatred, more kindness and less war, more generosity and less greed, more caring and less killing!

 

"Old Time Religion"

[joystickd]

The Hebrews before Jesus came weren't Christians. When Jesus Christ came, some Jewish people followed Him, but others didn't. The Jewish people who followed Him, including His faithful apostles who walked and talked with Him, didn't go to physical war against other people. Rather, they were persecuted as they obeyed Jesus Christ.

 

Obviously, there are Christians who don't believe in the "non violent approach" so I guess only the ones who do bother you, like me? For the record, you don't bother me, no matter what you believe. I respect your right to believe what you want.

 

Does the fact that Jesus Christ didn't kill anybody annoy you? Does the fact that His disciples who walked and talked with Him didn't kill anybody annoy you too?

 

You can call whatever you want negative things. Again, you are entitled to believe what you want same as I do and everybody else. Peace

 

I don't feel superior to Non-Christians at all. Why would I? I 100% believe that Christians, including myself: "if only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied" (1 Corinthians 15:19 NIV)

You just totally ignore the Old Testament like it didn't exist.

[TheFinalWord]

That is a nice prayer. However, truly following Jesus Christ is more than just praying; following Jesus Christ includes obeying His commands.

 

So, let me ask. If the founders of our nation were unable to gain independence without war, we should have just stayed oppressed? Are you glad they fought and died for us to have freedom of religion in this country?

 

I hate war, but sometimes it is necessary.

 

Did the disciples who walked and talked with Jesus Christ pray and fight the Romans and their countrymen, or did they pray and witness to the Romans and their countrymen? Did they persecute, or did they suffer persecution?

 

No, but when Paul witnessed to King Agrippa, he said wished everyone knew about Christ, aside from his prison chains.

Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

 

Living in persecution is not the ideal state for Christian witnessing and ministry. Our witness for Christ is much more effective when we have freedom of speech. Unfortunately, tyrants are not willing to give us that because that opens up the possibility people will criticize them.

 

Do you believe the disciples of Jesus Christ failed because they had to fight for their independence from the Roman Empire, but didn't?

 

The USA is not the foundation of Christianity by any means. Jesus Christ is the foundation of Christianity. His disciples obeyed Jesus Christ, and so should American Christians, if we truly love Him (John 14:15).

 

No, I do not think the USA is the foundation for Christianity, but I do believe our country has been used to spread the message of Christ.

 

War is apparent before Jesus Christ came.When Jesus Christ returns, He "will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil." (Matthew 13:41b) However, Jesus Christ gave us commands to obey in the meantime, and that includes loving neighbors as oneself (Matthew 22:35-40; Luke 10:25-37) and loving enemies (Matthew 5:43-48; Luke 6:27-37).

 

Yes, well maybe one thing I want to clarify, is I am not condoning personal violence. For example a neighbor offends me so I feel okay to attack them or use violence. I am talking about a civil government protecting its citizens and establishing law and order. I fully agree, that we as individuals should not take personal vengeance and we should forgive those that hurt us. But I don't think other governments or terrorists groups have a right to attack us. If they attempt to attack us, I believe our government is justified, biblically to defend us and use deadly force if necessary.

 

Did Paul write that about a Christian government, or a pagan government?

 

hmmm...I'm not sure why it matters. Paul's wisdom is applicable to all forms of government. No?

 

Do you know what happened to Cornelius after he and his family were saved? Do you know if they were persecuted by the pagan Roman Empire? We know Paul and the apostles of Jesus Christ were killed, with the exception of John who was put on the island of Patmos. Is there any text that talks about what happened to Cornelius and his family?

 

I have heard some legends, but I don't think anyone knows for sure.

 

Paul talks about spiritual armor. Spiritual armor is not physical armor, though the Crusaders must have though otherwise.) Paul makes it clear that "our struggles is not against flesh and blood" which is incredibly important. What does that mean to you? (I boldened some.)

 

"Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

 

Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand.

 

Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the Lord’s people." - Ephesians 6:11-18 (NIV)

 

Paul makes direct comparisons to Christians as a type of soldier.

 

Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

I'm just saying it would be odd for Paul to compare the Christian life to that of a soldier if being a soldier was inherently sinful.

 

Paul is talking about spiritual warfare, we are talking about physical warfare. I agree spiritual warfare cannot be fought with carnal weapons. Which makes a good case against the Crusades or forcing people to convert under threat of violence.

 

I am talking about physical warfare. Law and order is required to have a society in which people can function. As Christians, we desire peace, but we live in a sinful world filled with violent people. We should not let innocent people die. We need police and we need the military. Both entities represent a physical presence that may need to use violence to maintain peace. Can they use that authority in an unjust way? Absolutely. If you look at cases of police brutality, or the crusades, yes those are unjust. But a peaceful society needs law and order and sometimes physical force is needed to sustain that.

Edited March 4, 2016 by TheFinalWord

[BetheButterfly]

So, let me ask. If the founders of our nation were unable to gain independence without war, we should have just stayed oppressed?

 

The answer depends on "if" there is no other way to not be oppressed. The founders of our nation sadly did not understand many important truths, such as that God created all people equal, regardless of their skin color and gender. If the founders of our nation had obeyed Jesus Christ's commands, including the Golden Rule (Luke 6:31), then they could have found a nonviolent way to become free from oppression.

 

William Wilberforce, Gandhi, and Martin Luther King Jr. are all examples of great leaders who did not use physical warfare to help people become free from oppression. Rather, they used their God-given intellect, peaceful protests, and the Golden Rule.

 

we should have just stayed oppressed?

According to Jesus and His disciples, His followers (Christians) may suffer persecution (a synonym for oppression) for God's glory.

 

Remember that this thread is about Christians and war. Christians are from nations around the world and are beholden to one leader: Jesus Christ.

 

As Paul so eloquently states: "Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone." - Ephesians 2:19-20 (NIV)

 

Jesus Christ blessed His followers while at the same time telling them they would be persecuted: (I boldened some.)

 

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." - Matthew 5:11-12 (NIV)

 

 

Are you glad they fought and died for us to have freedom of religion in this country?

I am not glad when anybody fights and dies because I don't believe God created people to kill each other.

 

Also, not everyone sadly had freedom of religion in this country when they fought and died, because they didn't consider Native Americans and African slaves to be worthy of freedoms, sad to say.

 

The Native Americans and the African Americans didn't have freedom of religion under the Constitution. They weren't free. Many Native Americans who were killed didn't understand God's love through Jesus. The slaves were forced to adopt the religion of their owners but the religion of their owners didn't obey Jesus Christ.

 

Frederick Douglas, one of my heroes, states this in painfully raw terms:

“Between the Christianity of this land, and the Christianity of Christ, I recognize the widest possible difference.”

 

and

 

"I love the pure, peaceable, and impartial Christianity of Christ: I therefore hate the corrupt slaveholding, women-whipping, cradle-plundering, partial and hypocritical Christianity of this land."

 

Douglass, Slaveholding Religion and the Christianity of Christ, 1845

Frederick Douglass, “Slaveholding Religion and the Religion of Christ,” in Appendix to Narrative of the Life of Fredrick Douglass, An American Slave (American Anti-Slavery Society: Boston, 1845).

 

I hate war, but sometimes it is necessary.

Me too. Why do we hate war? Could it be because God's ideal is not for people to kill each other? Could it be because Christ did not lead His followers into war, though He does allow His followers to be persecuted?

 

No, but when Paul witnessed to King Agrippa, he said wished everyone knew about Christ, aside from his prison chains.

Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am, except these bonds.

Sure, but Paul didn't lead Christians into war in order to make everyone know about Christ. Jesus Christ had His disciples use love and their mouths, not swords, to spread the Gospel. That's a difference between Christianity and Islam: Muhammad and his companions did use swords while Jesus and His disciples didn't. That's an important distinction.

 

Living in persecution is not the ideal state for Christian witnessing and ministry. Our witness for Christ is much more effective when we have freedom of speech. Unfortunately, tyrants are not willing to give us that because that opens up the possibility people will criticize them.

God is the Judge of that. The persecuted Church in Peter's and Paul's time did do a good job in witnessing and ministry, in my opinion.

 

Also, it's remarkably easy to follow Christ when there's no oppression/persecution; it's a lot harder when trouble or persecution comes. Jesus Christ talks about that:

 

"When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. But theseed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it.” - Matthew 13:19-23a (NIV)

 

God blesses Christians who are being persecuted, like Jesus Christ promised. Although we don't often see those blessings in the temporary physical realm, eternity is where those blessings are found. While today Christians are being persecuted in various places around the world, their enduring persecution shows that they are "good soil" because they don't let trouble or persecution prevent them from following Christ.

 

 

No, I do not think the USA is the foundation for Christianity, but I do believe our country has been used to spread the message of Christ.

God uses people from all over the world to spread the message of Christ. <3

 

Yes, well maybe one thing I want to clarify, is I am not condoning personal violence. For example a neighbor offends me so I feel okay to attack them or use violence. I am talking about a civil government protecting its citizens and establishing law and order. I fully agree, that we as individuals should not take personal vengeance and we should forgive those that hurt us.

Thanks for clarifying your position.

 

But I don't think other governments or terrorists groups have a right to attack us. If they attempt to attack us, I believe our government is justified, biblically to defend us and use deadly force if necessary.

Could you please quote the Bible concerning this? Thanks.

hmmm...I'm not sure why it matters. Paul's wisdom is applicable to all forms of government. No?

It matters because Paul was talking about a pagan government, not a Christian one. If a government wants to be a Christian government, shouldn't Jesus Christ's commands be important? The Roman government didn't care about Jesus Christ's commands. Interestingly, Paul did not encourage the Christians who were being oppressed by the Roman government to rebel and physically fight.

 

I have heard some legends, but I don't think anyone knows for sure.

Thanks for the link.

 

Paul makes direct comparisons to Christians as a type of soldier.

 

Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. I'm just saying it would be odd for Paul to compare the Christian life to that of a soldier if being a soldier was inherently sinful.

While Paul talks about soldiers, please note the context in his letter to Timothy.

 

"Join with me in suffering, like a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather tries to please his commanding officer." - 2 Timothy 2:3-4 (NIV)

 

Does suffering (or hardness in the other version) mean killing, or enduring oppression/persecution? Is Paul, after Jesus confronted him, known for physically fighting, or for telling people about Jesus and enduring persecution for it? Did Timothy become a soldier who used a physical sword and cut down his enemies? Who is the commanding officer of Christians by the way? Jesus Christ is!

 

Paul is talking about spiritual warfare, we are talking about physical warfare. I agree spiritual warfare cannot be fought with carnal weapons. Which makes a good case against the Crusades or forcing people to convert under threat of violence.

Agreed. Paul obeyed Jesus Christ's commands while the Crusaders and those who force converted people didn't obey them.

 

I am talking about physical warfare.

I know, which is why it is interesting that you brought up Paul, since he wasn't talking about physical warfare but rather spiritual warfare. Paul, one of the first generation Christians, did not engage in physical warfare; he engaged in spiritual warfare! There's a big difference.

 

Law and order is required to have a society in which people can function. As Christians, we desire peace, but we live in a sinful world filled with violent people. We should not let innocent people die. We need police and we need the military. Both entities represent a physical presence that may need to use violence to maintain peace. Can they use that authority in an unjust way? Absolutely. If you look at cases of police brutality, or the crusades, yes those are unjust. But a peaceful society needs law and order and sometimes physical force is needed to sustain that.

I understand your point of view and thanks for the great points you brought up. However, Christians have to decide who to put first: Jesus Christ or country.

 

Jesus Christ clearly stated to love enemies. He gave a list as to what loving enemies looks like (Luke 6:27-37). Christians can choose whether to obey Him or not, but Jesus Christ does say: “If you love me, keep my commands." - John 14:15 (NIV).

 

When the leaders of Judea told Jesus' apostles to stop teaching about Jesus, "Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings!" - Acts 5:29 (NIV) When the Roman government made edicts against Christians, Christians didn't fight back with physical weapons. Rather, they endured horrible persecution. They obeyed Jesus Christ, and I truly believe they are blessed for obeying God, even though they endured oppression and persecution at the hands of the government.

 

They understood the important truth which is sung about in this relatively modern song:

 

"This World Is Not My Home"

 

While we're in the world, Christians are to light the world (Matthew 5:14-16; 5:43-48). However, that light is not in the form of bombs, but rather is a reflection of Jesus Christ's love for everyone, even for enemies.

Edited March 4, 2016 by BetheButterfly

[TheFinalWord]

The answer depends on "if" there is no other way to not be oppressed. The founders of our nation sadly did not understand many important truths, such as that God created all people equal, regardless of their skin color and gender. If the founders of our nation had obeyed Jesus Christ's commands, including the Golden Rule (Luke 6:31), then they could have found a nonviolent way to become free from oppression.

 

So, if there was no other alternative, war would be justified?

 

William Wilberforce, Gandhi, and Martin Luther King Jr. are all examples of great leaders who did not use physical warfare to help people become free from oppression. Rather, they used their God-given intellect, peaceful protests, and the Golden Rule.

 

Try using civil disobedience in ISIS controlled territory.

 

According to Jesus and His disciples, His followers (Christians) may suffer persecution (a synonym for oppression) for God's glory.

 

Suffer for the name of Christ, but if terrorists just want to wreck havoc on us, Christians in the military are not fighting back for their Christian faith, they are fighting for the freedom of their country. They are fighting for those that are even Non-Christians to freely pick their religion of choice.

 

Remember that this thread is about Christians and war. Christians are from nations around the world and are beholden to one leader: Jesus Christ.

 

Yes, I understood this thread was about Christians that were in the military, for example? Is it inherently a sin and are they still able to say they are Christians if they have to kill to defend American freedom.

 

The type of question I am seeing this thread can answer...

 

"Can a Christian special operator kill ISIS terrorists and still be a Christian?"

 

I would say absolutely yes. In fact, I would say God Bless those brave men and women.

 

As Paul so eloquently states: "Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone." - Ephesians 2:19-20 (NIV)

 

Jesus Christ blessed His followers while at the same time telling them they would be persecuted: (I boldened some.)

 

"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you." - Matthew 5:11-12 (NIV)

 

Yes, I agree if someone persecutes you personally for your faith, you should love them and pray for them. I am talking about an organized effort, like ISIS, that wants to kill as many innocent Americans as possible. Can a Christian in the US Army, Navy, Air force, kill terrorists that want to wreck havoc on our country. These are people that will kill women that "disobey" their husbands, cut off the heads of Christians, drown in cages anyone they perceive as against their extremist brand of Islam.

 

I am not glad when anybody fights and dies because I don't believe God created people to kill each other.

 

Also, not everyone sadly had freedom of religion in this country when they fought and died, because they didn't consider Native Americans and African slaves to be worthy of freedoms, sad to say.

 

Yes, that is true, and another war had to be waged to end slavery. The Civil War.

 

The Native Americans and the African Americans didn't have freedom of religion under the Constitution. They weren't free. Many Native Americans who were killed didn't understand God's love through Jesus. The slaves were forced to adopt the religion of their owners but the religion of their owners didn't obey Jesus Christ.

 

They did actually have the freedom, some just did not want to give it, which is why Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation. The constitution does give those Americans the rights of all other Americans.

 

Sure, but Paul didn't lead Christians into war in order to make everyone know about Christ. Jesus Christ had His disciples use love and their mouths, not swords, to spread the Gospel. That's a difference between Christianity and Islam: Muhammad and his companions did use swords while Jesus and His disciples didn't. That's an important distinction.

 

I'm not talking about using force to spread the gospel. I agree that is wrong. I'm talking about fighting terrorists. Can a Christian soldier fight terrorists. If the POTUS who states he is a Christian approves the US military to take out terrorists, is he sinning?

Edited March 4, 2016 by TheFinalWord

[joystickd]

Soldiers can kill. It's just a mistranslation of thou shalt not kill. One of the words actually mean with malicious intent. Killing in warfare is permitted and defending one's own life. When one looks at it a human has only two cheeks so you can't turn but so much.

[joystickd]

That's the problem with Christians that only focus on New Testament or even really study the Bible they miss things.

[Timshel]

I am asking this with the deepest respect.

 

I always wonder when threads are quoting scripture back and forth....what is truly in your heart and mind.

 

Scripture is meant to nudge us to higher levels of thought/action, not a shell to hold a permanent state of being. Or do you think so?

 

If you believe Christian scripture is the end of enlightenment...how do you reconcile differences of belief and scientific evidence of life after death that do not align with Christianity?

 

War has been our path, so far....no matter religion, faith or doctrine.

 

Anthropologically, we are a horribly violent species and always have some religion to moralize/rationalize our behavior.

This malice categorically aligns us within an animal and evolving species.

 

I believe in God but am fascinated by the literal/dogmatic translations and wonder about personal introspection/responsibility that I believe true spirituality involves.

 

Real question, zero sarcasm.

[joystickd]

I am asking this with the deepest respect.

 

I always wonder when threads are quoting scripture back and forth....what is truly in your heart and mind.

 

Scripture is meant to nudge us to higher levels of thought/action, not a shell to hold a permanent state of being. Or do you think so?

 

If you believe Christian scripture is the end of enlightenment...how do you reconcile differences of belief and scientific evidence of life after death that do not align with Christianity?

 

War has been our path, so far....no matter religion, faith or doctrine.

 

Anthropologically, we are a horribly violent species and always have some religion to moralize/rationalize our behavior.

This malice categorically aligns us within an animal and evolving species.

 

I believe in God but am fascinated by the literal/dogmatic translations and wonder about personal introspection/responsibility that I believe true spirituality involves.

 

Real question, zero sarcasm.

 

Just to support and argument. For example this from the book of Enoch:And his body was white as snow and red as the blooming of a rose, and the hair of his head †and his long locks were white as wool, and his eyes beautiful†. And when he opened his eyes, he lighted up the whole house like the sun, and the whole house was very bright. 3. And thereupon he arose in the hands of the midwife, opened his mouth, and †conversed with† the Lord of righteousness. 4. And his father Lamech was afraid of him and fled, and came to his father Methuselah. 5. And he said unto him: 'I have begotten a strange son, diverse from and unlike man, and resembling the sons of the God of heaven; and his nature is different and he is not like us, and his eyes are as the rays of the sun, and his countenance is glorious.

 

One could say Noah was Albino or that white people are devils because he resembled a fallen angel. The possibilities are endless. People often miss the context of the actual words.