NC for serial cheaters

[Whoknew30]

I agree and have asked him to do this.

 

Here are the issues:

First of all, he either brings it up out of context or waits for the next time someone alludes to a derogatory remark made by someone else (that's usually their way - no one takes responsibility).

 

In the first kind of confrontation out of context, he has to talk about something that is carefully rug-swept and maintained with a tacit agreement carefully avoided by everyone in the family. They ALL deny, rug-sweep, avoid conflict and pretend until something or someone breaks in a moment of extraordinary duress. They will make light, insist on their own innocence and be uncomfortable that he's breaking an understood code of behavior. THey don't do uncomfortable truth for very long. That's one thing.

 

The other thing is that "they" are only secondarily the problem. The problem is the brother's apparent hatred of me, which I think is probably fueled by her (guilt, jealousy, whatever it is - I don't really know: never been there, never done that). The rest of them are fine, lovely with me. I do love them. I only know that no one shuts the brother up (if I know about this at all it's because he talked and someone listened, right?) because, well, I don't know. To me that's the question. I felt close enough to the deceased sister to ask her this and she insisted that she couldn't make him stop. Personally I think that's the problem. They don't see it as a disloyalty to me, and he is their brother. They listen and try not to offend him probably. I'm not family when all is said and done.

 

But HOW, I ask, does H - who himself can barely grasp, much less spend time thinking about - all these nuances explain to them and why it's important. He's cut from the same cloth and understands the unspoken rules. They are all SO practiced at non-confrontation, speculation and blame-shifting that they wouldn't understand why the issue is theirs. Isn't it mine and bro's? So you see? Not getting involved and not knowing, they will assume it's 'our' problem and clearly I've done something some time to make him hate me so. So back to status quo: Listen, don't agree but don't antagonize.

 

Or he can wait for the next derogatory remark. We actually have discussed this, but I should probably reinforce how important to me it is that he clarify in no uncertain terms that he will not tolerate it. I think that's where we go. He's assured me he will do this with his brother. I need to remind him that to ignore nuances, innuendos and asides are just as hurtful and disrespectful. He will have a harder time with that. It's on the side of acknowledging white elephants, not a family skill or value.

 

Have you ever confronted brother face to face about him hating you?

[merrmeade]

Have you ever confronted brother face to face about him hating you?

Yes, but unfortunately it was before I knew about the affair with my H and his W. I remember that she was lurking in the background listening, which i thought was odd at the time. Anyway, this took place after the last d-day when I discovered SIL#1 affair. I thought (this is CRAZY ironic, so get ready ) that H's brother is really a good man, loyal to his wife, truthful (if overly so) and direct (iow, not like WH). In early days, I disliked him because of his violent temper and affinity for guns. I didn't want him staying with us. He always held this against me. So at this time - after d-day - I asked for the brother's forgiveness for my earlier treatment of him.

 

A few days after this talk (H adn I were staying with them on our way out of state, leaving the scene of the crime for a while but remember they didn't know about the recent A with SIL#1), I was impatient and aggravated with H for agreeing, without asking me, to stay 2 days longer to help his brother on a project. I was annoyed because it took away from our time with our children before we left for a long time. I said good-bye cursorily to H's bro & wife and left in my car to go be with the kids. I was mad at H, not them, and not really 'mad.' Well, next thing I hear (from a sister) is that I tried to talk to him but didn't mean it. It was all fake.

 

I don't think he's normal. And I think that she's devious and can manipulate his feelings and thoughts.

[merrmeade]

Oh. That 'talk' I'd also hoped indirectly addressed his animosity toward me. Since I didn't know about his wife's A with my husband, I'd assumed it was based on my discomfort with him when we were younger. I just remember his saying to me, "I always wondered what I did to you." He never mentioned anything he had against me.

 

Actually, the talk went well. I felt great about it. So now that I think more about it, I'm fairly sure she influences the conclusions he acts on.

 

It would be tricky to figure out how to see the brother without her knowing about it.

[Whoknew30]

Oh. That 'talk' I'd also hoped indirectly addressed his animosity toward me. Since I didn't know about his wife's A with my husband, I'd assumed it was based on my discomfort with him when we were younger. I just remember his saying to me, "I always wondered what I did to you." He never mentioned anything he had against me.

 

Actually, the talk went well. I felt great about it. So now that I think more about it, I'm fairly sure she influences the conclusions he acts on.

 

It would be tricky to figure out how to see the brother without her knowing about it.

 

Have you thought about talking to her? Not accusing her but just woman to woman about things?

[merrmeade]

Have you thought about talking to her? Not accusing her but just woman to woman about things?

Oh, yes. I was about to set that up - write her a letter or something to try and meet somewhere. I presented it to H on the premise that his bro did not know about the affair. That's when I found out that bro had told H before they got married that he knew about it. So at that point, I was then dealing with another TT: Everyone knew but me all these years you gdsob....

 

Shortly after that I started hearing about their badmouthing of me again.

 

So no. I haven't gotten back to the idea of talking to her again.

[merrmeade]

Have you thought about talking to her? Not accusing her but just woman to woman about things?

And here's the problem with that as I see it:

 

Ok. I've had 2 OWs who were SILs, right? So I have EXPERIENCE. Well, the experience is that they both have negative vibes toward me. Call it jealousy, fear, guilt, whatever. It's what they do it seems. I don't know it. I've never felt it. I don't know how to plan for it. It's another world to me and I don't know how it works.

 

I do know that the truth is threatening to them. I am gullible and unduplicitous. Everyone knows that. My family loves to tease and trick me, but because they love me they don't let it go very far, they always help me figure it out.

 

Now, I realize it is also my strength. Besides, there's nothing I can do about it. BUt how do I confront the opposite kind of personality?

[Whoknew30]

And here's the problem with that as I see it:

 

Ok. I've had 2 OWs who were SILs, right? So I have EXPERIENCE. Well, the experience is that they both have negative vibes toward me. Call it jealousy, fear, guilt, whatever. It's what they do it seems. I don't know it. I've never felt it. I don't know how to plan for it. It's another world to me and I don't know how it works.

 

I do know that the truth is threatening to them. I am gullible and unduplicitous. Everyone knows that. My family loves to tease and trick me, but because they love me they don't let it go very far, they always help me figure it out.

 

Now, I realize it is also my strength. Besides, there's nothing I can do about it. BUt how do I confront the opposite kind of personality?

 

I don't you but from your post & how you explain things, you seem calm & non confrontational (I don't know if thats true) which is fine & can be a strength but sometimes, enough is just enough! If you feel like your being wronged & picked on & feel your husband isn't going to bat for you, then maybe it's time you do it for yourself. Is it nice for a spouse to defend you, of course it is but if they aren't, sometimes you have to push them to the side & take the reigns.

 

How...you just do it! Let them know you've had it & you're not going to put up with this **** anymore. The only thing you're guilty of is loving your husband & how dare anyone treat you badly bc of his & their spouses/their mistakes.

 

Everyone has a breaking point & bullies don't & won't stop until the one their actually bullying takes a stand for themselves. Anyone that's forgiven the things you have, has strength. Let that come out. What's the worst that can happen, they don't like you? You have nothing to lose except letting everyone know you're done being their scape goat.

[understand50]

merrmeade,

 

I am not going to try and quantify the CRAP you have had to endure to keep your marriage and family together. But, as with Fellini, I am going to ask you to put on a brave front for your Son's sake. It is their day. They are in love and have a son together, this will be a high light of their life and his. Pictures will be shown, many years past when you and your husband are gone. Be civil, be plight, be classy. You can stand these people for the short time that is needed to celebrate the new family and future they have, and are making. I am sure your son knows more then you think, and your husband should support you in this, he is the main cause. You can do this.

 

The hard fact of life, is as we get older, it is really not about us any more. The family moves on the young take over and it become all about them. Your grandson is what it is all about now, along with your son and the bride. They cannot have two wedding, two christening, two anniversaries. The family will have to get along for these celebrations.

 

As always I wish you luck.....

[Whoknew30]

merrmeade,

 

I am not going to try and quantify the CRAP you have had to endure to keep your marriage and family together. But, as with Fellini, I am going to ask you to put on a brave front for your Son's sake. It is their day. They are in love and have a son together, this will be a high light of their life and his. Pictures will be shown, many years past when you and your husband are gone. Be civil, be plight, be classy. You can stand these people for the short time that is needed to celebrate the new family and future they have, and are making. I am sure your son knows more then you think, and your husband should support you in this, he is the main cause. You can do this.

 

The hard fact of life, is as we get older, it is really not about us any more. The family moves on the young take over and it become all about them. Your grandson is what it is all about now, along with your son and the bride. They cannot have two wedding, two christening, two anniversaries. The family will have to get along for these celebrations.

 

As always I wish you luck.....

 

Why would they have two weddings & other things because of an uncle??? If your kids know someone is treating their mother badly & they know at least one of their Aunts screwed their father, how could they as kids even think that's ok for their mom. That's your mom. You know the only one you get. You can have a 100 uncles & aunts & cousins & even multiple kids...you only get one mother & if she's a good one, how can you even considering extended family over your mom?

[fellini]

You can have a 100 uncles & aunts & cousins & even multiple kids...you only get one mother & if she's a good one, how can you even considering extended family over your mom?

 

Because it is their wedding, it is their day, and they are adults, and as the well trodden phrase on LS reminds us, we own our choices. It is what it is and OP has a choice to make.

 

Either she sees this about her, or she recognizes that this wedding is the eye of a hurricane in which she can see it's possible that in that brief moment, in that eye, everyone will conduct themselves "accordingly", and the sh-tstorm is on the periferal.

[katielee]

merrmeade - just sending hugs for this awful situation you are in....

[Whoknew30]

Because it is their wedding, it is their day, and they are adults, and as the well trodden phrase on LS reminds us, we own our choices. It is what it is and OP has a choice to make.

 

Either she sees this about her, or she recognizes that this wedding is the eye of a hurricane in which she can see it's possible that in that brief moment, in that eye, everyone will conduct themselves "accordingly", and the sh-tstorm is on the periferal.

 

It is partly about about her. She raised her kids, kept their family together , after the affair & they want to wine & dine people that treat their mom like crap bc their father couldn't keep it in his pants. If your mother that raised you & stayed up at night with you while you were sick, changed your diapers, fed you & drove you around to all your functions...doesn't come before an Uncle & Aunt, you're really a crappy child.

[Whoknew30]

#1 - My WH has done well with NC in every way with the OW since dday. This OW was my brother's wife. Brother has since died. I interacted with OW at the three memorial services for him and then made it clear I didn't want to see her again. I've dealt with this relationship in detail in previous threads.

 

#2 - About a year after dday, trickle truth revealed an even darker secret (to WH): He'd also had an affair with his sister-in-law decades earlier before she and his brother met. The brother has known since they got married (20 yrs). I only found out last year that the brother told H at that point (when they married).

 

Before my finding this out, we'd all interacted for years - though not so amicably for reasons I could never fathom and still don't entirely.

 

Since my finding out, we've kind of gone along without a real plan or "NC" per se. It's worked out that way because -

(a) H's bro & wife seem to hate me for some reason.

[Perhaps that IS the reason, but no one really knows except that they don't like me. The brother is generally considered an a-hole anyway. He had a vendetta against my son for a while. They (family) hint that she provokes him in the background. The family are all veteran deniers, rug-sweepers and blame-shifters but maintain strong loyalty.]

(b) we haven't seen each other and everyone generally accepts that they/I don't want to.

© My husband tries to be loyal to his brother .

(d) He also tries to protect and defend me against his brother's abuse and my own sensibilities to the fact of his prior relationship with the SIL. H's performance ranges between a C+ to C-, close to failing at times, and these days consists mostly of not telling me when he has to interact with her.

[This is the one we don't have an agreement about. It's

NC

with

SIL

#1. But we haven't said this for

SIL

#2 because it's a moot point. There was contact and conversation for years before I knew. It's more about the disrespect to me of the whole mess.]

Now, how do I feel about the SIL#2 mess? I'm happy that I don't have to see them. I've gotten over the absolute injustice of being treated like a pariah by the brother and wife for ANY reason (but especially as the BW) and the fact that no one in the family questions or holds the brother accountable for anything because they're afraid of his temper. I don't need to tell the family about the A, and I certainly won't be telling my kids. I know that there is nothing between them now and she is faithful to her husband. It would be unthinkable because she and they did the honorable thing, unlike my husband. However, they have vilified me unfairly and outrageously. They have invented reasons to make me the villain. On that basis, I have no interest in seeing or speaking to either one again.

 

I thought it would be over when my brother died but realize now it will never be over until I die! For example:

• With my H's family, we juggle holidays, who goes when to see his mother.
  
• My son's getting married in the spring. They sent me a list of people to whom they sent "save the date" emails, and SIL #1 was not on it, but H's brother and wife were. [The kids know about A#1 but not #2.] I'm ok with this but kind of wonder what will happen with SIL #1 since her sons and everyone else will be invited. Will she start vilifying me like the other SIL clearly has done?
  
• My brother knows about A#1 and was appropriately supportive and understanding when I told him. Nevertheless, we have family business, land holdings, etc., that require his communication with our SIL which he mentions freely. He'll probably visit her when he comes to the wedding. I wonder how that will play out.

I wonder how other people handle the on-going potential for encounter with family APs. Or maybe no one has stayed in a situation this f-ked up or has family this disturbing.

 

P.S.

I'm not interested in reactions about why I don't just ditch the husband with the lot of them. That's another subject and I ask that you talk about it somewhere else (please). Just not interested right now.

 

 

 

I've mentioned I've been with my husband since highschool.

 

Both my husband & myself have known each other's families since we've been kids...our families are bipolar opposites. My family is extremely open, any problem is layed on the table & confronted. Sometimes it causes fights but no matter what, nothing is ever left brewing. It's dealt with & we move on. Husband's family sounds a lot like what you explained of your husband's family...everything is hush hush, nothing is dealt with & no one ever truly owns their wrongs...for 19 years, I kept my mouth shut bc like yourself, I just figured I married in & their not my blood family.

 

That is until they started in on my son. No one understood his diagnoses & i found out they were talking about him (he was a toddler) & us as parents. Now my daughter has & always will be considered their princess. They have all been wonderful to her, they've taken her on trips,presents, sleep overs, just anything she ever wanted. So with that at first I tried to keep peace & was taught to respect my elders (h family is much older than mine). Finally at a huge family gathering one of my H Uncle said the wrong thing & I snapped! After 19 years they saw a whole different person. No one knew what to say, there was stuttering & blank stares. My daughter, without me saying a word, chimed in & said if it continues she wanted nothing to do with them in the future either. She isn't going to put up with bad treatment towards her brother or her mom. My husband didn't say a word, he left myself & my daughter to handle it, even know it's his family! Since that day, no one has so much even looked at my son the wrong way...no actual apologies but it all stopped.

 

 

Every family has problems, some bigger than other's. There is nothing wrong for asking for loyalty from those you have taken care of & have been loyal to. In fact you shouldn't even have to ask but if you do, you sure shouldn't feel guilty about it & if you put your life into your kids, NO ONE should be allowed to crap on you during a day that means just as much to you as the couple getting married. I can imagine to see your child start their life with the person they love is going to be such a wonderful, emotional moment for a mother. Honestly good luck to you, no mom should have to deal with such crap leading to a day that's suppose to be such joy for you....truly my heart goes out to you.

[fellini]

If your mother that raised you & stayed up at night with you while you were sick, changed your diapers, fed you & drove you around to all your functions...doesn't come before an Uncle & Aunt, you're really a crappy child.

 

So it follows then that you are saying that OP raised a crappy child. Or maybe things are not as simple as they seem.

[Spectre]

See here is my thing: if you have an affair with someone that due to family or work ties you HAVE to see? Well uh hate to break this to you, but that is your own fault and you need to reap the consequences. Maybe you shouldn't of cheated with someone who was such a big part of your life? You don't get to cheat and then say "family/work obligations, sorry!".

 

I mean hey it sucks if their cheating suddenly makes their personal life harder to manage, I mean WHO COULD OF PREDICTED THAT?

 

So sorry you reap what you sow. So for example if a person has kids with one person and is in a relationship with someone else DO NOT CHEAT with your ex you have kids with. Because then you look like a piece of crap if you try to then claim "well, gotta see him..for the kids!". It's utterly asinine. It's not even just for that relationship. Any relationship I am in if the woman in the past was in a relationship with someone else and she cheated on this person with this other person? Sorry, don't even care if I wasn't the one cheated on, that dude is gone for good from your life, period.

 

So in conclusion: don't cheat with friends or co workers or family members. In fact do not bang friends or co workers or family members even if you are single..unless you plan to be single for the rest of your life.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Spectre

[merrmeade]

Actually I think my kids do get it. She was not on the list of people they sent the save-the-date emails to. But maybe that was the list for me and it's not over. Actual invitations have not been sent out. But the fact that they even knew to leave out her name at any point indicate they get it.

 

I think you do what you're able to do. If you're not able, your WS should support you and protect you and family should stand behind you. But I like the fact that some of you are pushing me to consider whether I can do it for my son's sake. Officially considering…

 

I also like W30s story of standing up to her husband's family for her sons sake. Yes, children can make us more heroic. I have a harder time doing it for myself.

[merrmeade]

So it follows then that you are saying that OP raised a crappy child. Or maybe things are not as simple as they seem.

no, of course she's not saying that. My children have imbibed my values and have the humanity, heart and emotional intelligence to live them consistently. They are noble beings and loving, loyal children.

 

And they do get it. The fact that they left her name off the initial save-the-date email list that they sent me means they know. Now whether they add her later for some reason… Will update then...

 

I think W30's contribution in this way is essential in this thread. Thank you all. You've given a needed balance of positions - from outrage to gentle suggestions that I consider the possibility of taking the high road. Officially considering...

 

Time to cook some tofu turkey!

[66Charger]

Well, if you can have a out of body experience for a hour or two, I can step in for you, and have the conversations in a special 66chager "loving" way. I am quite sure things will be peaceful the rest of the way.

[merrmeade]

But hey, don't stop the discussion on that account (tofu turkey prep, a 10-hour undertaking fyi).

 

This is all fascinating as usual.

 

Carry on. Will check in between recipes...

[merrmeade]

So it follows then that you are saying that OP raised a crappy child. Or maybe things are not as simple as they seem.

what seems simple about any of this!?!

[66Charger]

Happy Holidays Miss Lady

[Whoknew30]

So it follows then that you are saying that OP raised a crappy child. Or maybe things are not as simple as they seem.

 

If you have a good mom (I know some bad moms) & you don't really care a about her comfort at your wedding...yes, you're being crappy kid. Id be extremely disappointed in my child if they ever did that to me. I think any mom would be.

[Whoknew30]

Actually I think my kids do get it. She was not on the list of people they sent the save-the-date emails to. But maybe that was the list for me and it's not over. Actual invitations have not been sent out. But the fact that they even knew to leave out her name at any point indicate they get it.

 

I think you do what you're able to do. If you're not able, your WS should support you and protect you and family should stand behind you. But I like the fact that some of you are pushing me to consider whether I can do it for my son's sake. Officially considering…

 

I also like W30s story of standing up to her husband's family for her sons sake. Yes, children can make us more heroic. I have a harder time doing it for myself.

 

I'm not truly saying your kids are crappy People. It's a tough situation & its crappy for everyone. If they made the decision to not take your comfort into consideration is crappy. My kids can be crappy at moments, doesn't mean they are as people. I hope you understand what I mean as a mother. Sometimes kids can be crappy, my kids are all the time ;')

[merrmeade]

I totally get it W30; it's what being a parent requires if you're going to keep everybody accountable: No whitewashing reality. No ignoring wrongs. Keep expectations high for each individual. Love them for who they are. And because they are. Let 'em go at the right time and see what took.

 

But when you're talking about adults, you're talking about mutual respect and communication. I can't make rules like I did when they were children. But I can tell them my needs in areas that they have control over. The question is what I need here.

[Spectre]

You talk about for your sons sake but honestly, he doesn't need his aunt there. Not if it causes pain and come on: the sister in law is utter trash. Why would he want her there anyways?

 

Especially a woman who has such an utter lack of respect for relationships, just why?

 

Or we can just bottom line it: is he going to have a crappy time because his aunt isn't there? Is it going to make his wedding less magical, make his vows any less binding, or any of that? It'd be weird if the answer to any of those questions was "yes". Perhaps the aunt shouldn't of been having affairs with people in a relationship. If those actions cause her to not be able to come to the wedding then oh well, dems the breaks.

 

If you play stupid games you tend to get stupid prizes.

Edited November 25, 2015 by Spectre