Am I the only spouse that doesn't want to know?

[fellini]

First of all, Charade, I want to thank you and compliment you on your extremely interesting and well written posts, especially your first in this thread which I think offers some extraordinary insights into an aspect of an A from the perspective of a WS, and especially in terms of post DDay issues. I am a BS so that perspective is very helpful indeed.

 

So, as you said, just here somewhere, all infidelities are different. And I think that in your case I can see why addiction discussion seems irrelevant, because you are clear that there were undealt with issues in the marriage that were more of a catalyst for you to seek solutions elsewhere.

 

As in my case, I believe the addictive element is important, but i think we need to be more careful (as I have tried to argue in other posts) about using analogies or metaphors to describe experiences which can only be taken so far. Sometimes the analogy or metaphor fails us, and I have elsewhere said this. For example, using the analogy of PTSD post Iraq - a common occurence in LS would be more useful of most of us actually experienced PTSD from being in Iraq. The thing about analogies and metaphors is that they normally function to take an experience we have that we don't understand and make it understandable through the analogy. And its seems backwards to me to talk about wartime PTSD when I have adequately experienced the trauma of an A, but never served in the military.

 

So about addiction, which is a stange case because it is based on "fact" (Helen Fischer's "the chemistry of love") and is used as an analogy to Alcoholism or Drug addiction. The thing for me is the so called addiction is not the issue, it is the drugs which are produced, which we know to be addictive drugs, but in the brain, which affairs tend to over produce in favour of those chemicals which were operating properly to maintain long term attachments (the so-called brain chemicals that are equivalent to cocaine, vs those that are more prevalent in heroine addiction).

 

Now if your marriage is already collapsing in terms of strong long term connections (the "heroine" drug is decreasing) you are ripe for an affair IF you meet someone who essentially "turns you on". i.e. activates the cocaine high chemical response and worse, intensifies it through the secrecy, mystery and adventure that COMES WITH AN A.

 

Having an A is "part" of the puzzle that produces these chemicals. This is why DDAY is fundamental in collapsing what you call the fog (another metaphor I don't think works well - or at least only explains one aspect of the problem).

 

So making a great marriage is not the only issue here. People in great marriages also suffer from A's. And the problem is that just making a great marriage isn't always the solution.

 

My WW sought salvation in a co-worker because of personal issues, not marital, directly. While it is true that there are always marital issues when one spouse in engaged in an A, it is not necessary that the BS was always in a position to prevent it. We live in marriages, but we maintain a certain level of individuality don't we! Or we would suffocate.

 

So when the piece of the puzzle that kept the A alive and thriving is gone, I believe it is true that real panic can ensure because suddenly the marriage is at stake. But I believe the WS always knew this, but this knowing it, and knowing how s/he felt about the AP only intensified it and gave the A more "authenticity", but really simply generates enormous quantities of cocaine brain chemical. (These brain chemicals have names, they are not actually drugs, I just don't feel like googling their proper names for now).

 

So post DDAY is still a very important phase, the so-called fog is quickly receding, but I believe this is just that the intense feelings which the secrecy created and which were fundamental to the A no longer support the capacity to feel, and now the marriage is real and not just a piece of the puzzle. Yet we must remember that there are other pieces that continue to thrive in the mind chemistry of the WS, and these we can only remove through diligent NC, much like taking someone off their addiction "cold turkey". But you see, I don't think it is the addiction we are dealing with, but the emotional effects of Long Term Exposure to a new lover.

 

I'm not sure what it means to say "not been made to feel afraid enough of losing the M", because in my case, my WW was made afraid - by no fewer than 4 persons: herself, her AP told her directly what happened to him, a colleague who quite clearly asked her if she was prepared to lose her M over this guy, to which she cleverly turned it around to: not prepared to lose this guy period. And her IC who told her in no uncertain terms to end her A, get back to her marriage and fix it, or it will end the day I find out, and I will find out.

 

None of these could persuade her, because she didn't want to be persuaded to stop.

 

In essence, what she wanted to acknowledgement was: Having an affair is worth the feeling even if you are told you might lose your M for it. The more clearly you understand what you might lose, the greater the affair, the more important it remain a secret, thus ensuring the supply.

 

Road, Idk about the addictive element of an affair. It is my feeling that the WS has not been made to feel afraid enough of losing the M if they continue to feel addicted at all. To my thinking, the addiction or affair fog you are speaking of is pure selfishness that is indicative of taking the spouse for granted or a character flaw. If the BS handles it in such a way that the WS thinks they have lost everything, the addictive fog ends because there is NO taking the spouse for granted. And R begins. So then all of the worry about the WS not being NC or not ending the A should stop naturally because of a total desire to keep the marriage and R. If it doesn't? That's not reconciliation and not a healthy relationship and should not continue. It is a character flaw. Period.

 

I believe you are saying that NC and all of its rules and proclamations is necessary for safety in R, but I guess my point is . . . if all of that is necessary, it's not reconciliation.

Edited December 29, 2015 by fellini

[thecharade]

Fellini,

 

I have attempted to study this issue both inside and out, with myself and several others I know who have had or are having As. They trust me--not to keep their ugly secrets, but to help them instead of judging them. It is through them that I have realized there are many types of As, many ways a WS can be 'broken.'

 

I once knew a man who seduced several of my female colleagues over a period of about five years. We were just shy of 30 years-old at the time, and these women were either in new marriages or with live-in boyfriends. His methods were always the same, and I was shocked to see his plan work over and over, even when I tried to interfere in the spells he would cast. He was very charismatic and charming, and he singled each woman out as special--bought her gifts, looked at her when he told jokes, took her to lunch, arranged special projects with her that entailed late nights and one-on-one time. Each woman fell for that 'Chosen One' feeling! But why? Why did they not see him for the absolute empty shell of a man that he was? They had holes in themselves, holes in their self-esteem, holes in their thinking. His grandiosity filled those holes and only IC could ever fix those holes properly. Sadly, HE felt the need radiating from these women, as classic narcissists do, but neither they nor their spouses sensed the vulnerability that lurked inside these women all along. Were the women addicted? Yes! To an invisible man, to a mirage, to an echo! So yes, I have seen the addiction you speak of and it is real and it comes from personal flaws. These women were dropped like hot potatoes. It was painful to watch them go through withdrawal, the devastation on their faces. But the problem wasn't that they "happened to develop" an addiction; the problem was that they "had holes that kept them vulnerable" to developing an addictive A. I mean this with total respect and curious thought: what responsibility do we have for choosing wisely when seeking a mate? These women were very fragile and insecure types that their spouses CHOSE as solid partners?

 

After my M collapsed in a heap of brutal honesty on both our parts, and after my H realized what a selfish jerk he had been for 20 years, he kept saying, "This is all my fault." I asked him to please stop blaming himself as I CHOSE a man who could not be a partner, chose a man who wanted a mommy. What the heck is broken in me that I thought my H was good husband material? It turns out, a lot was broken in me. I apparently did not think I deserved an equal. My extreme codependency told me to prove myself everyday because that's the only way I get love. It turns out that my H and I were two flip sides of the very same dysfunctional coin, neither of us more culpable than the other.

 

So, is your W (or anyone else's spouse) just an imperfect woman in an addiction, or are you equally imperfect that you married and accepted someone who was always vulnerable to hurting you with an addiction?

 

My journey through marital crises, infidelity, and personal accountability is showing me that we not only need to look at who we are, we also need to look at who we have chosen to bring into our lives. We are AS responsible for who we are as who we befriend, marry, and associate with. We cannot tie ourselves to damaged people and then blame them for being damaged. And if we didn't see it? We need to figure out why.

 

Maybe (I don't know, just a thought) your W has been a vulnerable, needy person all along, and you chose her anyway. Maybe it IS a marital problem, as well as a personal one. For both of you. Maybe when you get down to it, it is always both.

[thecharade]

Oh, and one other thought: if we feel strong and powerful in our M--maybe even too strong, an imbalance of power in our direction--words or threats of divorce often carry little impact. But if we feel balance in our M, strength and assertiveness and confidence from both spouses in the M, then a threat to the M matters. So, depending on the couple, fear of losing the spouse or M can look very different.

 

My H became immune to my threats and words. He flat out would not change because he did not believe I could ever confront the dynamic and assert my own needs over the needs of the family. He manipulated me with guilt and it always worked. The day that I made arrangements to move out, gave him a copy of his financial obligations, gave him a copy of the mediator's info, and told him that I had told my parents? That was the day he began to change.

 

I actually had to get a D for him to finally reinvest in me and the relationship. Post divorce, we are healthier than we have ever been.

[thecharade]

I was watching the news last night, about the 50 something year-old mother that was shot when the police came for a domestic disturbance. It turns out the domestic problem was a mental health crisis--which is overwhelming for law enforcement to deal with. They are not doctors! Very sad, all the way around. And I thought, "Whose responsibility is it when someone is mentally unwell? Theirs? Their family? Their friends and neighbors? Society at large? And what does 'responsibility' even mean? Are they expected to see it? To act on what they see? To understand? To handle it appropriately? To pay for it?" I became overwhelmed at the magnitude of the issue.

 

But that is how I see people in affairs. It is a type of mental health issue. How do we solve it? We try to figure out who is responsible Do we blame people who suspected? Friends? Relatives? Society? And what should they do? How do we take steps to stop it or repair it? And who pays?

 

No answers. But human beings are very complicated and As are not the simple things we want to see them as, not if you want to really fix the problem. In my thinking, when we all start owning our part--however small--and sharing in the responsibility instead of the blame, we make huge strides toward finding peace. I just don't see any other way.

Edited December 29, 2015 by thecharade

[ladydesigner]

Wow very insightful posts Fellini and thecharade, thank you!

[katielee]

Fellini,

 

I have attempted to study this issue both inside and out, with myself and several others I know who have had or are having As. They trust me--not to keep their ugly secrets, but to help them instead of judging them. It is through them that I have realized there are many types of As, many ways a WS can be 'broken.'

 

I once knew a man who seduced several of my female colleagues over a period of about five years. We were just shy of 30 years-old at the time, and these women were either in new marriages or with live-in boyfriends. His methods were always the same, and I was shocked to see his plan work over and over, even when I tried to interfere in the spells he would cast. He was very charismatic and charming, and he singled each woman out as special--bought her gifts, looked at her when he told jokes, took her to lunch, arranged special projects with her that entailed late nights and one-on-one time. Each woman fell for that 'Chosen One' feeling! But why? Why did they not see him for the absolute empty shell of a man that he was? They had holes in themselves, holes in their self-esteem, holes in their thinking. His grandiosity filled those holes and only IC could ever fix those holes properly. Sadly, HE felt the need radiating from these women, as classic narcissists do, but neither they nor their spouses sensed the vulnerability that lurked inside these women all along. Were the women addicted? Yes! To an invisible man, to a mirage, to an echo! So yes, I have seen the addiction you speak of and it is real and it comes from personal flaws. These women were dropped like hot potatoes. It was painful to watch them go through withdrawal, the devastation on their faces. But the problem wasn't that they "happened to develop" an addiction; the problem was that they "had holes that kept them vulnerable" to developing an addictive A. I mean this with total respect and curious thought: what responsibility do we have for choosing wisely when seeking a mate? These women were very fragile and insecure types that their spouses CHOSE as solid partners?

 

After my M collapsed in a heap of brutal honesty on both our parts, and after my H realized what a selfish jerk he had been for 20 years, he kept saying, "This is all my fault." I asked him to please stop blaming himself as I CHOSE a man who could not be a partner, chose a man who wanted a mommy. What the heck is broken in me that I thought my H was good husband material? It turns out, a lot was broken in me. I apparently did not think I deserved an equal. My extreme codependency told me to prove myself everyday because that's the only way I get love. It turns out that my H and I were two flip sides of the very same dysfunctional coin, neither of us more culpable than the other.

 

So, is your W (or anyone else's spouse) just an imperfect woman in an addiction, or are you equally imperfect that you married and accepted someone who was always vulnerable to hurting you with an addiction?

 

My journey through marital crises, infidelity, and personal accountability is showing me that we not only need to look at who we are, we also need to look at who we have chosen to bring into our lives. We are AS responsible for who we are as who we befriend, marry, and associate with. We cannot tie ourselves to damaged people and then blame them for being damaged. And if we didn't see it? We need to figure out why.

 

Maybe (I don't know, just a thought) your W has been a vulnerable, needy person all along, and you chose her anyway. Maybe it IS a marital problem, as well as a personal one. For both of you. Maybe when you get down to it, it is always both.

 

this is a thought provoking post. I do think that many many people are broken and the very sly manipulator can see that from a mile away.

 

I remember the only fight hubby and had before the affair crap went down. I told him he lets his family walk all over me. He told me he always knew I was unstable. So, why did we marry each other then? There is an implication in your theory that the BS should have expected this (or something) to happen.

Even though my husband and I had affairs for different reasons (I think), we both kind of had the same reason too- we couldn't cope with pain. So, was that in us from the start of the relationship? Probably... but there was nothing that happened for us to see that in each other. There were certainly trying circumstances, but those just called for hard work, not emotional maturity and coping.

well, interesting theory at any rate.

[Brandyundercover45]

He has been different and they are changes I would have liked to have seen earlier on. He still isn't meeting all my needs so I am unsure as to jump into R or be hesitant like I have been. I'm sort of expecting to get burned again, but I'm already scarred so it doesn't hurt as bad.

 

My WH is still very much about himself and that is what scares me the most is that I think the mindset is still there. The me, me, me diatribe. I can take it to a certain point and then it's like really?!? He seems to like to play martyr most the time and complains that his life still sucks (work, friends, etc) blah blah blah, the same as when he started the A, only this time I am okay and our sex life is good. I am supportive of his career ALWAYS. He on the other hand still works too many hours and doesn't spend enough time with me and the kids. I am still the sole parent as he has never fully participated in raising our kids and that's hard.

I think it's interesting that you can have sex with your husband after all his As but still have issues with not trusting him. Not being smart or anything, I'm wondering how that works. I know for me even when I'm mad at my H it takes some time after we've made up for me to be okay with sex. I don't hold grudges or anything, but if things aren't right with us, I just can't have sex, my body shuts down. How weird is that?

[ladydesigner]

I think it's interesting that you can have sex with your husband after all his As but still have issues with not trusting him. Not being smart or anything, I'm wondering how that works. I know for me even when I'm mad at my H it takes some time after we've made up for me to be okay with sex. I don't hold grudges or anything, but if things aren't right with us, I just can't have sex, my body shuts down. How weird is that?

 

Not weird at all. In fact I felt like that right after I discovered False R. It has now been 1.5 years since my last Dday and I am able to enjoy sex with WH again, BUT we are not connecting emotionally this has been something my WH has always lacked and that is a deep emotional connection. It is why I coped with his first A by having my own (I am an xMOW too). I have always craved emotional and my WH craves physical (I feel almost too much at times ).

 

I have issues with trusting him now because he has lied to me so many times. I often feel like he has put me in the role of a parent who keeps busting their teenager with drugs or something. It sucks!

[fellini]

Fellini,

So, is your W (or anyone else's spouse) just an imperfect woman in an addiction, or are you equally imperfect that you married and accepted someone who was always vulnerable to hurting you with an addiction?

 

My journey through marital crises, infidelity, and personal accountability is showing me that we not only need to look at who we are, we also need to look at who we have chosen to bring into our lives. We are AS responsible for who we are as who we befriend, marry, and associate with. We cannot tie ourselves to damaged people and then blame them for being damaged. And if we didn't see it? We need to figure out why.

 

What first comes to mind is that what you say about the responsibility we have in who we bring into our lives will depend, in a way on whether we believe that a person who enters into an A is a broken person or their entering into an A breaks them.

 

Because in the latter then, being a BS is like a lottery. Can I be held responsible if say, I marry someone, who after 15 years is suddenly diagonsed with a cancer that brankrupts me, my family, the house ... would it be fair to say, you should be careful about who you choose to marry. Now if I choose to marry a narcissist, like in your example, well, I think responsibility is clear there. But is it so clear that during 15 years so many people have a marriage not unlike any other, and then suddenly, like a cancer discover there is no recovery?

 

So I'm wondering. If someone who has a pretty darn good marriage ends up 15 years on in an affair, would it be fair to say the affair, the process of building up the falling into love with a co-worker and withdrawing from the marital home certain needs in order enjoy them elsewhere, was like a cancer that suddenly emerged and killed the patient. Or are we going to start to ask questions about the patients entire life of decisions to smoke, quit, eat healthy, not healthy, not excercise... like in affairs, hold them accountable, responsible for actions and decisions that we vaguely believe "brought" the cancer onto themselves, actions behaviours that "brought" the affair onto themselves.

 

And if it's possible that affairs occur in relatively stable, good, loving marital homes, maybe affairs have nothing to do with the marriage.

 

When someone comes on to LS and starts to tell their story, it usually quickly gets to how the marriage went bad. And in almost every single response to this "excuse", the accepted position is, that was no excuse to cheat. Now if I am going to accept that being in a bad marriage is not reason enough to cheat, but cheating ocurrs, then I must also accept that being in a good marriage might also result in someone cheating.

 

We cannot tell people on the one hand that the state of the marriage has nothing to do with the personal choice to cheat, and then tell someone that having a good marriage is an antidote to affairs. We know from experience, that it isn't. Fixing the marriage is not the solution: all that can do is fix the marriage. Something else has to happen to fix the person.

 

I don't believe my WW was a broken woman when I met her, she wasn't too needy, she wasn't dominating, she wasn't entitled, she didn't have low, high, or no self esteem. I married a woman, not a broken doll, or a super hero. And we lived like that for over a decade. Maybe the reason she cheated has less to do with her internal issues and more to do with what happens to some people after 15 years of a monogamous marriage. Maybe her affair was her cancer. I don't think the answers to those questions are available to me at this stage of the game. I would need to go back through our whole life history and ask if this is what gave her the cancer to cheat.

 

I made a choice during the past two and a half years to believe what makes sense to me: My wife was a good person. She fell into some personal issues that I could not help her through, nor was she asking me to, and she decided to allow a co-worker to save her. Now she sees the folly in her ways, and realises that she is the only one who can save herself. If I believed it were the opposite, that my wife was a timebomb and now she has mutated into something else, then I would have left her the day I discovered her, the day the bomb went off for me, and I mutated into a betrayed husband.

 

Not sure how much sense this all makes.

Edited December 29, 2015 by fellini

[thecharade]

Fellini,

 

Sure, what you say makes sense.

 

I have a friend that has never been faithful. He has been married for a few years. He won't completely admit his unfaithfulness, but he won't exactly deny it either. The thing is, all of his prior girlfriends caught him cheating. He has REAL issues! So I think, "What the freak was his W thinking investing in this guy? He is not marriage material. He is not even boyfriend material!" His W has a good degree of responsibility for the unhappy state of her M. He was a bad choice, and she has her own issues that keep her from wanting to see that.

 

But after 10 or 15 years of monogamy? Is it a 'slow build' problem? Or a sudden crisis? Not sure.

 

I think many Ms are basically good, but I find most marital dynamics to be problematic if you look closely, even if they seem good. One spouse is too controlling or too boring or too insecure or too neurotic or too jealous or too stagnant or too immature or too irresponsible or too unhappy or whatever! And I see the M and think, "Yep, that issue could cause a problem at any point." So I am not sure that I buy into labels like "good marriage" or "bad marriage" anymore. It feels more like a moving scale between 1 to 100, and as life moves and changes and people respond, the marital number changes.

 

But trust me, I realize that some spouses have issues that are entirely their own. Just not nearly as often as people seem to claim, imo.

 

I have a close family member who married a cheater. It was her third attempt at monogamy when they got engaged. Ugh. After 7 years or so, she had her first (known) affair. Then he found out there were others. To this day he tells me, "I am not responsible for her messed up-ness." Dude, you CHOSE her! Choose more wisely! She was ALWAYS gonna cheat! He is as responsible for his divorce and misery as she is. But he absolutely does not see it that way. So, ok then.

 

It just has always, always been true in my life that when I have any problem with anyone, the solution was always found in changing my ways, not necessarily theirs.

[fellini]

I think many Ms are basically good, but I find most marital dynamics to be problematic if you look closely, even if they seem good. One spouse is too controlling or too boring or too insecure or too neurotic or too jealous or too stagnant or too immature or too irresponsible or too unhappy or whatever! And I see the M and think, "Yep, that issue could cause a problem at any point." So I am not sure that I buy into labels like "good marriage" or "bad marriage" anymore.

 

It just has always, always been true in my life that when I have any problem with anyone, the solution was always found in changing my ways, not necessarily theirs.

 

Understood. But I think that after 15 years the spouse that is too controlling, or too boring, or too insecure, or too neurotic or too quick to judge, scold or whatever was not deemed those things in the first 5, 10, 12, 14y 364 days.

I believe people have the capacity to be with each other, and to that extent most marriages are okay. But it is time that takes its toll. Being too anything is like having a small scab from an injury and it gets picked at and picked at day after day until what was a scab one could live with is now a wide open festering wound. I think some people know how to make a the world's greatest sandwiches. But for it to be great and remain great, you need to eat it. Make more, and then you have to realise that it's not going to be the greatest sandwich anymore if you don't reinvent it. A marriage needs to be reinvented when you least expect it: When it's been working great for a long time. Marriages are not cars. You cannot wait until they break down to find a mechanic to fix it because you might well end up deciding that buying a new one is the better option than to continue to invest in the old.

 

But none of this explains the cheating person who marries, possibly thinking that marriage will help them to stop doing what it is they do that is essentially them. People who cheat during their honeymoon. People who cheat during their entire marriage, and with people from the past who it turns out were never just the past. These are a different breed of infidelity to me because they are completely, and unequivocally responsible. Can those who marry them be held responsible? Maybe less the first time. Some narcissists are pretty damned attractive people to be around.

 

I believe these people are a different cut in the infidelity discussion than those who surely thought they married well, did well, or as well as they could inside a very close marriage, but found themselves 10-15 later years in LS - either as a BS or a WS. I cannot hold any BS responsible for being in these situations through their choice of partner. We can ask if they did everything they could to keep the marriage alive, but as I said elsewhere, there is no guarantee that a crisis won't strike one of the spouses sending them spinning into the welcoming arms of an AP.

 

Many of these people - BS's and WS's alike come to LS looking for the same answer: How did I get here.

 

Esther Perel, whose credentials I do not wish to discuss, has this to say about marriages:

 

I think we’ve always equated longevity with good and successful marriages, but plenty of people who stayed “till death do us part” were absolutely miserable with each other.

 

It’s important to recognize that some relationships can end with dignity and integrity, and be appreciated for what they were without being viewed as a failure. Couples raised their children together, bought a home together, buried their parents together, helped each other through cancer spells together. It’s cruel and shortsighted to say that if it ends, then it’s a failure.

 

I think marriages sometimes just pass their shelf life, but the partners still stay connected because they have children and experience divorce as simply a reorganization of the family. More and more, I help couples who choose to end their marriage take with them the richness of their relationship and what they created, rather than just see the whole thing as a calamity.

Edited December 30, 2015 by fellini

[Miss Clavel]

As I said, we all use information differently. Yes, part of it is the knowing that she would be forthcoming and honest about it if I asked. Very few of the specific details had an effect on me past the initial shock. But as katielee said, knowing did demistify it. My W and I shared everything for 17 years to that point. Why let this significant part of her life be any different? She wasn't a different human being, or possessed by someone else. She was still my W, even if she was f**king someone else. And my ability to listen to it and still want to work it out proved as much to me as it did to her.

 

 

I disagree. I don't think it's the details that do the most damage. It's what lead to the details, the lies that allowed them to be the details, and the secrecy. For me, it was also the fact that someone was taking part in my life without my knowledge. As horrible as some of the details were, being aware of them helped let me in to that part I felt was being kept from me.

 

devil in the details. most of what i found out, you can see in any movie or read about on infidelity websites. boring, trite. soulmeats, puke.

 

the most important details for me were, where will my income come from, where will we live, omg omg omg, the kids.

 

i forgave, i offered a chance, i had a line drawn, in what was left of my mind, and when he said they had crossed it. i didn't need to hear anything else.

 

he did however, hear me. and i'm told all the neighbors for half the block heard me as well.