Getting Over Your AP

[NewLeaf512]

and that is supposed to do what? prevent you from being cheated on?

 

All the love in the world I had for my WW, my child, the love my daughter had for her mother could not stop her from making an absolute fool of herself in order to have a taste of what is on the other side of decency and respect.

 

You can reject it and then what? It stops happening to you?

 

 

As you know little to nothing about me, I was M to a man who decided after 8 years of marriage to give me a choice. Open marriage or divorce. I was 31 or so. I agreed to open marriage because I felt I had no choice. Within months he got a woman pregnant. We separated. He wanted to R. I said no way! He broke in my house with the intention of murdering me. There were other people in my home who he shot. Then he stood face to face with me and blew his brains out.

 

I was alone (and happy enough) for 7 years before idiot came along and broke my heart. I've been alone for a while and it's how I will stay. I'm blessed . So I will continue to make myself the change I want to see in the world.

[NewLeaf512]

it's not about giving up on human race.

 

it's about growing up and seeing the world for what it really is. and it's not a fair place to live in. fellini said it all, your positivity is awesome but you lack maturity that should go with it.

 

 

 

MM I know all about the real world. I live in it. I've been a Criminal Barrister, QC for over 15 years and am being called to the bench this month. I have seen the sewer of humanity and I hold no illusions. The reality of the human condition in the now is deplorable. I can choose to let some horrific things t have seen and heard make me bitter, jaded and cynical. But who does that change? No one. Plus I feel like crap walling in a cess pool of miserable people and try to raise the tone. Hardly immature

[fellini]

As you know little to nothing about me, I was M to a man who decided after 8 years of marriage to give me a choice. Open marriage or divorce. I was 31 or so. I agreed to open marriage because I felt I had no choice. Within months he got a woman pregnant. We separated. He wanted to R. I said no way! He broke in my house with the intention of murdering me. There were other people in my home who he shot. Then he stood face to face with me and blew his brains out.

 

I was alone (and happy enough) for 7 years before idiot came along and broke my heart. I've been alone for a while and it's how I will stay. I'm blessed . So I will continue to make myself the change I want to see in the world.

 

Well NL, that is an experience I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy. Well maybe my WW's ex AP, but that's another story. But I somehow feel that with this revelation you are speaking about "not giving up" in a personal way, and I among others are talking about what can possible be accomplished about infidelity.

 

You have made yourself the change you want to see. And I suppose one could say one is not prepared to "give up" on humanity to have the capacity to do otherwise. But you yourself have said MAKE the change.

 

And all we are trying to say is that people MAKE CHANGE as they wish. Ironically you have decided you will remain alone in the world (if by that you mean you have no interest in romantic/intimate relationships, I can relate to that) but we do not live alone in the world, nor can we prevent others from harming us either willingly or inadvertently.

 

Regardless, there are many of us who have chosen NOT to remain alone in the world, and on the one hand could adopt your personal philosophy with respect to others, but on the other hand I see it encouraging the same blind faith some of us felt for our spouses before they cheated on us, and having a sublime perspective on humanity and its capacities for change does nothing to stop someone who chooses to cheat.

 

I suppose the solution is if you don't want to get burned, don't cook. If you wish to see humanity as having enormous potential, best not enter into a communion with one least they should find other communions to feed their insatiable desire to be in communion with humans.

Edited November 10, 2015 by fellini

[NewLeaf512]

We can only share our own world view, it's the only one we have. I choose not to be involved romantically for the foreseeable future. I don't advocate that others do the same. You are incorrect in your assumption that "never give up" is self reflection. Giving up never crosses my mind. I have a lovely life that I enjoy living and sharing with friends and family. I am a citizen of this planet and I know from studying human behaviour that Jungian Archetypal behaviours are fixed during our developmental years. It is a certainty that in peaceful stable environments, when archetypes are fixed, shadow behaviour is not adopted.

 

It's unclear to me why you feel the need to be contrary and contentious towards me whilst trying to goad me into some strange discourse by attempting to poke holes in my ethos. You can choose to be deeply unhappy, negative and filled with vitriol. I choose otherwise. To even suggest that any person known to you should be subjected to attempted murder, murder and witnessing a suicide shows a pathology I can't identify. If your anger is that great, holding on to it hurts you the most. It's like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

[yodelwithyu]

Well NL, that is an experience I wouldn't wish upon my worst enemy. Well maybe my WW's ex AP, but that's another story.

 

Wow. Just wow. We all have anger and a lot of times ill will, but to say this openly and TO the person that told you they went through this horrific thing? Class act.

Edited November 10, 2015 by yodelwithyu

[fellini]

It's like drinking poison and expecting someone else to die.

 

Ah, but now you understand the mindset of my WWs exAP.

[cja]

 

If you love someone, you should have feelings beyond but that include being their "best friend". And best friends look out for each other. They do not participate in their demise. For me it seems quite natural that an AP ad BS can no longer be friends. They gave up friendship the moment they crossed the line into being lovers.

 

I know this is an old thread, but in my late night OCD'ing on LS this was such a refreshing thing to read. I said this exact thing to my husband when he was talking of his AP, and how she was a 'friend' to him. Real friends do not, as you say, participate in their demise.

[Furious]

And Fellini I will always feel terribly for BS because of my part in her pain.

 

I don't have an intimate relationship with other custom in Harvey Nick's food Hall but yesterday when I backed into someone and stepped into them and they dropped something I apologised, and picked up what she dropped. Because we are both human beings.

 

I don't feel sorry for ExMM. Incidentally your definition of intimate and mine probably are not the same.

 

I'm sorry you don't embrace humanitarianism.

 

 

I agree, it's important to embrace humanitarianism.

[merrmeade]

If we apply your same point about human character, there would be no infidelity. People would behave sincerely with those they have promised and made vows to. But they do not. They simply DO NOT. Expecting remorse, demanding remorse from someone who was capable of such betrayal seems rather naive to me.

That probably sounds like the ultimate in bitter cynicism but not to me. That IS the bottom line, isn't it? That anyone capable of everything involved in betrayal cannot be expected to suddenly produce remorse on demand.

...

Worse, one must be careful what one wishes for: if you tell your WS that she isn't showing remorse, and there can be no moving forward without it, I'll promise you, tomorrow you will begin to "see" remorse. And since you demanded it so much and invested in it so much, you will see what you want to see, a "remorseful" WS.

This is

so

true. I'

m

so

slow at realizing these things and hadn't looked at it this way, but that's it. I'd add that before you get the makeup 'remorse, you get a bout of childish defensive anger, which is in part why you get the makeup remorse.

Do some OWs express remorse? I've seen it.

Do some OM express remorse? Never seen it.

omg

, this is new, too. For real? I'

m

trying to get better about accepting what people say they've 'seen' or observed on LS although I don't trust anyone's objectivity. It's a perception and as such subject to subjective bias.

So

be it. We're in a freaking public forum and anything goes as long as it's on-topic and civil. That said, I'd like to hear more about this observation.

 

Do others concur that

OM

don't express 'true' remorse like

OW

? No need for lengthy explanations of 'true' remorse; they vary as the day is long. We'll just accept that variable as a permanent cliffhanger.

 

Along with this I wonder if there's a difference in, say, remorse rates among

WS

according to gender.

Personally I believe the whole project of pinning Reconciliation on the conecpt of remorse to be misguided. Remorse is remorse. Reconciliation is something else. If in reconciliation remorse is a feature, all the better.

 

But to put remorse above reconciliation and to really pin it there in order to move forward in R is to me the wrong approach. Remorse emerges, often, from the process of reconciliation, rather than the other way round.

Questions/comment underlined above.

[waterwoman]

I am sure you are right that reconciliation can produce remorse - a BS who in spite of their pain can offer reconciliation is likely to have an impact on a wavering WS. However I will be honest and admit that if my H had not shown some semblance of remorse on dday or soon after, I couldn't have considered reconciliation, Maybe it's my ego talking but I could not have done it. Once he had shown me that, I was able to make the attempt, I was able to fight to keep my marriage but it had to come from him first. I take my hat off to those who can do otherwise

[66Charger]

Men dont feel remorse?. Why is that even a question. Another "expert" opinion. Yeah, right

 

Perhaps its not seen, because men don't usually write essays about their depth of despair. We fix things and move on. Does that mean remorse is not there? Of course not. When you do someone wrong and get called on it, you will do one of 2 things. Look them in the eye and apologize, or run and hide.

 

One is a man and one is a beyotch

 

The notion that remorse does not exist in men is straight out misandry.

Edited December 13, 2015 by 66Charger

[fellini]

Men dont feel remorse?. Why is that even a question. Another "expert" opinion. Yeah, right

 

Perhaps its not seen, because men don't usually write essays about their depth of despair. We fix things and move on. Does that mean remorse is not there? Of course not. When you do someone wrong and get called on it, you will do one of 2 things. Look them in the eye and apologize, or run and hide.

 

One is a man and one is a beyotch

 

The notion that remorse does not exist in men is straight out misandry.

 

I noticed you didnt quote the original text in your response, obviously because you want to take what I said and change it to what you wish to think I said:

 

Do some OWs express remorse? I've seen it.

Do some

OM

express remorse? Never seen it.

 

I have never seen a single thread in LS in which an OM expresses remorse for his part in an affair in terms of the damage he has caused his AP's BW.

 

I have seen many threads, expecially in the OM/OW forum where the OW has expressed regret and remorse for the harm she has done to her AP's BW.

 

 

 

So if you want to distort what I said in the context of remorse on the part of the OM for the BH of his AP, then own that. But no one who has actually read this thread could possible interpret that I EVER even remotely suggested that

 

MEN are not capable of REMORSE.

 

Maybe you should question your true motives for distorting what is clearly written in posts by people whose view you do not share anything in the least.

[merrmeade]

I noticed you didnt quote the original text in your response, obviously because you want to take what I said and change it to what you wish to think I said:

 

Do some OWs express remorse? I've seen it.

Do some

OM

express remorse? Never seen it.

 

I have never seen a single thread in LS in which an OM expresses remorse for his part in an affair in terms of the damage he has caused his AP's BW.

 

I have seen many threads, expecially in the OM/OW forum where the OW has expressed regret and remorse for the harm she has done to her AP's BW.

 

So if you want to distort what I said in the context of remorse on the part of the OM for the BH of his AP, then own that. But no one who has actually read this thread could possible interpret that I EVER even remotely suggested that

 

MEN are not capable of REMORSE.

Well, this is also a better clarification from the original post of the remorse you were talking about. Even adding "in terms of the damage he has caused his AP's [bH]" (I assume you meant "BH") is more specific. It also doesn't preclude the possibility of older posts you might not have read or posts on other forums. So everybody chill. I don't think either one of you has a very solid premise, but my question is answered.

 

Not that I have any vested interest in the remorse of OMs for their exAPs' husbands. I do have a thing about opinions based on subjective observations on LS. I agree that it's a totally valid basis for a personal opinion as long as it's fully explained and qualified. This one just needed a little clarification.

 

It bothers me sometimes but, hell, it's a freakin' public forum, and a "valid" opinion is no more nor less than what you understood. Nobody is "right." We all come with emotional baggage which colors our understanding and conclusions. A lot. The patterns we think we identify and how we describe them are far from qualifying as an empirical set of observations. Whatever we've "seen in LS" is totally subjective from beginning to end. Anyway, we're not voting for president here (although we probably work a lot harder at our opinions than some of the electorate).

[katielee]

 

I have never seen a single thread in LS in which an OM expresses remorse for his part in an affair in terms of the damage he has caused his AP's BW.

 

 

so therefore, it doesn't exist. OMG.

I have, IRL, and in other infidelity forums.

 

That was a very generalized statement about men not feeling remorse. Insults those men who have done the work. I'm not sure any woman should stay with a guy who can't be remorseful. If that's the case, then no woman should agree to recovery..

[katielee]

 

I have never seen a single thread in LS in which an OM expresses remorse for his part in an affair in terms of the damage he has caused his AP's BW.

 

 

so therefore, it doesn't exist. OMG.

I have, IRL, and in other infidelity forums.

 

That was a very generalized statement about men not feeling remorse. Insults those men who have done the work. I'm not sure any woman should stay with a guy who can't be remorseful. If what you're saying is true, then no woman should agree to recovery..

[fellini]

This entire thread emerged from a discussion of whether or not the AP should feel remorse for the the damage done to the BS of the AP.

 

It was always about that topic.

 

When I say "I have never seen it" I mean just that. I have never, in nearly 3 years once read a post in which a wayward husband OR other man post anything about remorse for his affair partner's betrayed spouse.

 

I never said men are incapable of remorse, I made an observation.

 

I stand behind my observation that some people come in to some threads to stir up trouble with people they do not agree with. It's not about subjective or objective or impressions. It's merely personal.

 

 

 

Well, this is also a better clarification from the original post of the remorse you were talking about. Even adding "in terms of the damage he has caused his AP's [bH]" (I assume you meant "BH") is more specific. It also doesn't preclude the possibility of older posts you might not have read or posts on other forums. So everybody chill. I don't think either one of you has a very solid premise, but my question is answered.

 

Not that I have any vested interest in the remorse of OMs for their exAPs' husbands. I do have a thing about opinions based on subjective observations on LS. I agree that it's a totally valid basis for a personal opinion as long as it's fully explained and qualified. This one just needed a little clarification.

 

It bothers me sometimes but, hell, it's a freakin' public forum, and a "valid" opinion is no more nor less than what you understood. Nobody is "right." We all come with emotional baggage which colors our understanding and conclusions. A lot. The patterns we think we identify and how we describe them are far from qualifying as an empirical set of observations. Whatever we've "seen in LS" is totally subjective from beginning to end. Anyway, we're not voting for president here (although we probably work a lot harder at our opinions than some of the electorate).

[fellini]

so therefore, it doesn't exist. OMG.

I have, IRL, and in other infidelity forums.

 

That was a very generalized statement about men not feeling remorse. Insults those men who have done the work. I'm not sure any woman should stay with a guy who can't be remorseful. If what you're saying is true, then no woman should agree to recovery..

 

First of all, for the 3rd time: The topic was whether AP's (OW or OM whether married or not)should feel remorse for their AP's SPOUSE. At no time were we EVER talking about whether men, in general feel remorse for their infidelity on their spouse. THE TOPIC WAS THE AFFAIR PARTNER FEELING BAD FOR THE SPOUSE OF THE PERSON THEY CHEATED WITH.

 

 

 

Here is the thought I gave: I have never seen it in LS with OM.

 

Make of that what you wish. But at least admit you are stretching a simple phrase into something it does not say.

Edited December 13, 2015 by fellini

[merrmeade]

This entire thread emerged from a discussion of whether or not the AP should feel remorse for the the damage done to the BS of the AP.

 

It was always about that topic.

 

When I say "I have never seen it" I mean just that. I have never, in nearly 3 years once read a post in which a wayward husband OR other man post anything about remorse for his affair partner's betrayed spouse.

 

I never said men are incapable of remorse, I made an observation.

 

I stand behind my observation that some people come in to some threads to stir up trouble with people they do not agree with. It's not about subjective or objective or impressions. It's merely personal.

Oh, good grief. Here's how it actually went down:

#84 was a sincere question:

omg, this is new, too. For real? ... I'd like to hear more about this observation. Do others concur that OM don't express 'true' remorse like OW? ... Along with this I wonder if there's a difference in, say, remorse rates among WS according to gender.

Responses to that question included:

- The notion that remorse does not exist in men is straight out misandry.

[bizarre response since original statement was from a man]

- I have, IRL, and in other infidelity forums.

[actual answer to the question]

- I have never, in nearly 3 years once read a post in which a wayward husband OR other man post anything about remorse for his affair partner's betrayed spouse.

[useful clarification about the statement / question]

The t-j was going off on observation vs opinion. My detour - not useful - my apologies.

[66Charger]

You may see the reply as bizarre, but I see the question as ridiculous. There are opinions and there are facts. The thought that men, whether AP, OM, WS or BS are missing the emotion of remorse IS stating that men are flawed. Doesnt matter where the statement commes from.

Since we are talking about OM, there are not that many post from men in the OW/OM forum. It is 90%+ female. But common sense dictates that there are just as many OMs as there are OWs. The answer that you did not highlight was that men process things differently and process remorse differently. That was the answer to your question, however choose what you wish to highlight.

 

Certain posters are feminist and pick out statements (OFTEN correctly so) that they feel are misogynistic. That is who they are and what they feel. I respect that even if I disagree. There are just as many post and posters that constantly hammer the"THE ANGRY BS". Men are mostly wrong, pigs, unfair to women.

 

Do I take these statements as offense? Yes I do. Personally? Not really

 

What i do take personally is the hypocrisy. Posters will write what they want then castigate another for posting what they think. It got so bad with a recent thread, with the experts throwing out their degrees and how well they are read, insinuating others were STUPID, that the thread was shut down, as this will probably be.

Some threadjacks are interesting and do pose deep questions and some dont.

 

I should probaly take my leave for a bit and leave LS to the "experts" as many others have done.

 

All yours

[fellini]

No merrmeade. It begain with this

 

I would hope that hurting another person knowingly or unknowingly is of concern therefore

WS

and

OW

/

OM

should feel remorse, guilt and anguish about hurting

BS

.

OW

/

OM

isn't married to

BS

but that makes no odds.

 

This was the sub thread and everything that followed was a response to the notion that the OW/OM should feel remorse, guilt and anguish about hurting the BS.

 

My response to that specific quote, which I included in my post, was that:

 

I have seen remorse in LS in OW for her AP's Wife

I have not seen remorse in LS in OM for his AP's husband.

 

 

So when I say I have seen it, I am speaking about actual posts from OW who have actually said they have called the BW to tell them how sorry they are for what they have done to them, etc. etc.

 

Not once do I recall reading about an OM who called the husband to apologize for having been with his wife.

 

I've seen it on Homeland though. But then again, they thought the H was dead in Iraq somewhere.

 

 

Oh, good grief. Here's how it actually went down:

#84 was a sincere question: Responses to that question included:

- The notion that remorse does not exist in men is straight out misandry.

[bizarre response since original statement was from a man]

- I have, IRL, and in other infidelity forums.

[actual answer to the question]

- I have never, in nearly 3 years once read a post in which a wayward husband OR other man post anything about remorse for his affair partner's betrayed spouse.

[useful clarification about the statement / question]

The t-j was going off on observation vs opinion. My detour - not useful - my apologies.

Edited December 13, 2015 by fellini

[katielee]

 

Not once do I recall reading about an OM who called the husband to apologize for having been with his wife.

 

I've seen it on Homeland though. But then again, they thought the H was dead in Iraq somewhere.

 

My husband did- to each of the OW's BS (I guesss one was not a phone call but he went over to their house to apologize). My AP apologized to my husband on the phone.

[katielee]

I doubt remorse is a quick phone call though, but something deeply felt and acted upon for a long time.

[ShatteredLady]

I think that most cheating spouses spin quite a yarn about the terrible BS at home & by the very nature of an affair the OW/OM believe it all (at least at the start) I know of women who's 'story' is "My H is abusive. I'm so scared. Protect me big brave man!". Maybe that & the whole male competitive thing makes it a little harder for men to truly feel remorse for the BS. I don't know.

 

To be honest I've read 'some' OW talk of remorse but most still throw in lines about him living with 'that kind of crazy/disrespect/loveless marriage' etc. I don't get the feeling that what very many OW give would pass as real remorse. "Of course the BS didn't deserve it BUT...." there's no real remorse until you loose the 'but'.

 

I don't know! My brother took his own life. At his inquest the police & medical people stood & walked away from his WW when they realized that it was her OM sat next to her!! yep! He was so remorseful that he sat chatting & laughing (yes he actually LAUGHED!) at my brothers inquest!

 

Should the OW/OM feel remorse? It would be nice to think but we all hold-on to the little lies that get us through the night.

[NewLeaf512]

I think that most cheating spouses spin quite a yarn about the terrible BS at home & by the very nature of an affair the OW/OM believe it all (at least at the start) I know of women who's 'story' is "My H is abusive. I'm so scared. Protect me big brave man!". Maybe that & the whole male competitive thing makes it a little harder for men to truly feel remorse for the BS. I don't know.

 

To be honest I've read 'some' OW talk of remorse but most still throw in lines about him living with 'that kind of crazy/disrespect/loveless marriage' etc. I don't get the feeling that what very many OW give would pass as real remorse. "Of course the BS didn't deserve it BUT...." there's no real remorse until you loose the 'but'.

 

I don't know! My brother took his own life. At his inquest the police & medical people stood & walked away from his WW when they realized that it was her OM sat next to her!! yep! He was so remorseful that he sat chatting & laughing (yes he actually LAUGHED!) at my brothers inquest!

 

Should the OW/OM feel remorse? It would be nice to think but we all hold-on to the little lies that get us through the night.

 

Holy Sh@! Babe. This takes the bloody mick. Dear G-d what is the world coming to?

[merrmeade]

Holy Sh@! Babe. This takes the bloody mick. Dear G-d what is the world coming to?

my sister-in-law/OW called her high school sweetheart the month my brother died and was married to him the month after the last memorial. She sent me a note saying, "I'm sorry; it was mutual; we were needy," and then regaled me on the phone for the apologies I owed her. She embraced me at all three memorial services; apparently forgiveness was her right and due. Entitlement is the opposite of remorse.