Getting Over Your AP

[katielee]

new leaf - it DOES! but the WS can improve themselves so that they are a safe partner and a good person who lives according to their values. They were NOT a good person in an affair. What the AP does to improve their life or become better is not a concern of the BS. The BS is not in a relationship with them.

[katielee]

(I concur but must point out they too are dealing with emotional fall out alone for an A they did not conduct alone)

 

 

but why should this concern the reconciling couple?

[purplesorrow]

One other question for OP and anyone else.

 

OP I have never been a WS so although I understand your words I have not felt your feelings. There also doesn't seem to be much on your BS so you may have to fill in the blanks. Here is what I think you are saying:

 

You were in an A, it ended and you and your BS want to R. Although this is the path you have taken I am not sure why or how BS is feeling. Can you reveal some more info?

 

I may (or may not) be detecting an interesting pattern in the BS and WW who try to R their M's.

 

OW/OM should be completely thrust into NC (I concur but must point out they too are dealing with emotional fall out alone for an A they did not conduct alone)

 

The WS must be completely honest and transparent to BS (I concur)

 

WS must never think about nor have a thought about OM/OW again, (impossible without a frontal lobotomy, cognitive dissonance, or "splitting"

 

WS must work flat out at the R for a meaningful reason (I concur but: not for the kids, for financial reasons, or to save face)

 

BS can bring up the A or OM/OW whenever they like for information, expressing feeling at any point, and sometimes for years and even decades.

 

I don't understand this. Have I got it wrong somewhere?

This isn't how it worked for me for the short time I attempted to reconcile. It was on my ex to bring up the affair/ow when there was something he wanted to discuss. It was he that has never even said her name, his choice. Right after dday, I didn't really care that ow was suffering alone, so was my ex, so was I. I was not his shoulder to cry on and he was the last person I trusted to care for me. Ultimately, every couple works through it their own way.

[NewLeaf512]

but why should this concern the reconciling couple?

 

I would hope that hurting another person knowingly or unknowingly is of concern therefore WS and OW/OM should feel remorse, guilt and anguish about hurting BS. OW/OM isn't married to BS but that makes no odds. WS should be remorseful as well to OW/OM for conducting an A with them ( which usually has involved WS telling lies to OW/OM.

 

As a citizen of this planet and a human being if you go around hurting people and thinking it's not a concern, it makes a statement on the calibre of that person's character. -low

[purplesorrow]

I would hope that hurting another person knowingly or unknowingly is of concern therefore WS and OW/OM should feel remorse, guilt and anguish about hurting BS. OW/OM isn't married to BS but that makes no odds. WS should be remorseful as well to OW/OM for conducting an A with them ( which usually has involved WS telling lies to OW/OM.

 

As a citizen of this planet and a human being if you go around hurting people and thinking it's not a concern, it makes a statement on the calibre of that person's character. -low

 

Would you suggest a bw or bh sit around and watch ws console om/ow? His ow didn't give a shyt about me nor my kid, maybe she didn't know she should? If a couple decides to work on their marriage, everyone else must be shut out.

[NewLeaf512]

This isn't how it worked for me for the short time I attempted to reconcile. It was on my ex to bring up the affair/ow when there was something he wanted to discuss. It was he that has never even said her name, his choice. Right after dday, I didn't really care that ow was suffering alone, so was my ex, so was I. I was not his shoulder to cry on and he was the last person I trusted to care for me. Ultimately, every couple works through it their own way.

 

 

PS your situation was particularly horrendous. I can't imagine. I'm sure that you sustained hurt that was head and shoulders over the others. I hope OW feels remorse for what you went though and disgust with her behaviour and fixes herself.

[purplesorrow]

PS your situation was particularly horrendous. I can't imagine. I'm sure that you sustained hurt that was head and shoulders over the others. I hope OW feels remorse for what you went though and disgust with her behaviour and fixes herself.

 

I don't think my situation was any different from someone else that was cheated on by one they loved and trusted. I don't really think more horrendous than any other story here. Like all pain, it is healing with time. He and I have both grown and found some peace. Ow moved on to the next husband and is being sued by that bw.

[NewLeaf512]

Would you suggest a bw or bh sit around and watch ws console om/ow? His ow didn't give a shyt about me nor my kid, maybe she didn't know she should? If a couple decides to work on their marriage, everyone else must be shut out.

 

No PS as I said in an earlier post here it is an absolute must for WS to have complete NC with OM/OW. I do believe WS should feel some remorse no matter how small towards OM/OW.

 

(Someone said the BS and WW think of AP as "the enemy" ) if that works for them super but it looks like WW gets abdication of responsibility and certainly OM/OW weren't in an A alone.

 

AP should feel awful about their part of hurting BS. If BS wants it I think AP should absolutely be humble and remorseful and offer a sincere and heartfelt apology.

[purplesorrow]

No PS as I said in an earlier post here it is an absolute must for WS to have complete NC with OM/OW. I do believe WS should feel some remorse no matter how small towards OM/OW.

 

(Someone said the BS and WW think of AP as "the enemy" ) if that works for them super but it looks like WW gets abdication of responsibility and certainly OM/OW weren't in an A alone.

 

AP should feel awful about their part of hurting BS. If BS wants it I think AP should absolutely be humble and remorseful and offer a sincere and heartfelt apology.

 

I would have really thought something was deeply wrong with my ex had he not expressed feeling bad that ow was hurt. I actually felt a little bad for her when he cut her off and blocked her, but that was his choice. No bs can control how their ws felt nor feels about ap but they can choose not to hear about it. I preferred he be honest with me and not pretend. I don't know any ws who just gets off the hook because they are reconciling. Actually the opposite. Hell can not begin to describe what it was like after dday!

His ow attempted and apology by saying she was sorry I got hurt. Take that for what it's worth . She didn't correct any previous lies so nothing she had to say would have mattered any way.

[katielee]

I do believe WS should feel some remorse no matter how small towards OM/OW

 

I'm afraid that would be a dealbreaker for me. I bet my husband would throw me out on my butt if I expressed this about OM. I do believe the WS should feel remorse for the other BS though...

[fellini]

I would hope that hurting another person knowingly or unknowingly is of concern therefore WS and OW/OM should feel remorse, guilt and anguish about hurting BS. OW/OM isn't married to BS but that makes no odds. WS should be remorseful as well to OW/OM for conducting an A with them ( which usually has involved WS telling lies to OW/OM.

 

As a citizen of this planet and a human being if you go around hurting people and thinking it's not a concern, it makes a statement on the calibre of that person's character. -low

 

Earlier you argued that another LS member was probably new here because he lacked the depth of understanding you consider that one gets from being on LS (a Benchmark for knowing about infidelity I don't agree with, but so be it).

 

But still you maintain your utopian idea about remorse on behalf of the AP that if we applied your own yardstick, would suggest you haven't read here long enough.

 

Not only does the AP NOT feel, let alone express remorse, more often than not the WS is the same during a very long phase in R.

 

If we apply your same point about human character, there would be no infidelity. People would behave sincerely with those they have promised and made vows to. But they do not. They simply DO NOT. Expecting remorse, demanding remorse from someone who was capable of such betrayal seems rather naive to me. OF COURSE in an ideal world we would love to think it would happen. But wishful thinking doesn't cut it here.

 

Worse, one must be careful what one wishes for: if you tell your WS that she isn't showing remorse, and there can be no moving forward without it, I'll promise you, tomorrow you will begin to "see" remorse. And since you demanded it so much and invested in it so much, you will see what you want to see, a "remorseful" WS.

 

Do some OWs express remorse? I've seen it.

Do some OM express remorse? Never seen it.

 

Personally I believe the whole project of pinning Reconciliation on the conecpt of remorse to be misguided. Remorse is remorse. Reconciliation is something else. If in reconciliation remorse is a feature, all the better.

 

But to put remorse above reconciliation and to really pin it there in order to move forward in R is to me the wrong approach. Remorse emerges, often, from the process of reconciliation, rather than the other way round.

Edited November 8, 2015 by fellini

[fellini]

AP should feel awful about their part of hurting BS. If BS wants it I think AP should absolutely be humble and remorseful and offer a sincere and heartfelt apology.

 

In the real world of infidelity the AP has intimate and deep feelings for the WS, something s/he does not for the BS.

 

I should imagine that the AP should feel remorse, anguish, and pain, as you put it NOT for the BS, but rather for the WS for whom they have participated in marital strife and caused enormous pain and suffering to those people close to the WS (family, husband, children). Not the BS.

 

Because if you think you love someone, what you do not do is engage in an affair that you know will end badly, thrusting them into a large hole of destruction and misery in their immediate life. And if you do in fact do this, you should realise on WS's DDAY that you were part of this.

 

And if you loved the WS as much as you said you did, it is then that you should realise any remorse or guilt you have for being such a willing participant in the undoing of their dignity, respect, and love of those who have been a part of their lives much longer than you.

 

But no, the AP seldom feels remorse EVEN for the damage s/he has caused the WS, so I cannot fathom how the AP is going to make the next step and have empathy and remorse for the "collateral damage" of the marriage.

 

If you love someone, you should have feelings beyond but that include being their "best friend". And best friends look out for each other. They do not participate in their demise. For me it seems quite natural that an AP ad BS can no longer be friends. They gave up friendship the moment they crossed the line into being lovers.

Edited November 8, 2015 by fellini

[NewLeaf512]

Earlier you argued that another LS member was probably new here because he lacked the depth of understanding you consider that one gets from being on LS (a Benchmark for knowing about infidelity I don't agree with, but so be it).

 

But still you maintain your utopian idea about remorse on behalf of the AP that if we applied your own yardstick, would suggest you haven't read here long enough.

 

Not only does the AP NOT feel, let alone express remorse, more often than not the WS is the same during a very long phase in R.

 

If we apply your same point about human character, there would be no infidelity. People would behave sincerely with those they have promised and made vows to. But they do not. They simply DO NOT. Expecting remorse, demanding remorse from someone who was capable of such betrayal seems rather naive to me. OF COURSE in an ideal world we would love to think it would happen. But wishful thinking doesn't cut it here.

 

Worse, one must be careful what one wishes for: if you tell your WS that she isn't showing remorse, and there can be no moving forward without it, I'll promise you, tomorrow you will begin to "see" remorse. And since you demanded it so much and invested in it so much, you will see what you want to see, a "remorseful" WS.

 

Do some OWs express remorse? I've seen it.

Do some OM express remorse? Never seen it.

 

Personally I believe the whole project of pinning Reconciliation on the conecpt of remorse to be misguided. Remorse is remorse. Reconciliation is something else. If in reconciliation remorse is a feature, all the better.

 

But to put remorse above reconciliation and to really pin it there in order to move forward in R is to me the wrong approach. Remorse emerges, often, from the process of reconciliation, rather than the other way round.

 

Hi ... As I mentioned above I have never been a WS, I was a BS and most recently a duped OW who without being asked, without BS or MM knowing I showed remorse (I quit my job, didn't break NC, crying my eyes out for days feeling horrible and more than 4 months later still feel crap and have learned a lot about myself. All the while having some kind of outrageous behaviour meted out to me by ExMM) not that I deserve a medal its part of being human. I also did not say it was a prerequisite.

 

Perhaps it is naive and utopian. I call it working towards a better human interaction between people. That suits me fine.

[NewLeaf512]

And Fellini I will always feel terribly for BS because of my part in her pain.

 

I don't have an intimate relationship with other custom in Harvey Nick's food Hall but yesterday when I backed into someone and stepped into them and they dropped something I apologised, and picked up what she dropped. Because we are both human beings.

 

I don't feel sorry for ExMM. Incidentally your definition of intimate and mine probably are not the same.

 

I'm sorry you don't embrace humanitarianism.

[katielee]

Recovering from infidelity is a job that takes a lot of energy and work, none of which i would be willing to expend on my AP. Not even a thought. To do so would be disrespectful to my husband.

[fellini]

And Fellini I will always feel terribly for BS because of my part in her pain.

 

I don't have an intimate relationship with other custom in Harvey Nick's food Hall but yesterday when I backed into someone and stepped into them and they dropped something I apologised, and picked up what she dropped. Because we are both human beings.

 

I don't feel sorry for ExMM. Incidentally your definition of intimate and mine probably are not the same.

 

I'm sorry you don't embrace humanitarianism.

 

I think you seriously misunderstand me. I embrace it completely.

But what I don't do assume is that my values are always inherently good or remotely the ideal values of a society.

 

I find the whole issue of infidelity challenges us to stop living in our "idealistic" world and wake up to the reality. That in spite of our ideals, people are willing, prepared, and desire to do the "wrong thing" and in doing so, to hurt people.

 

To say that I see this in my fellow humans is not to say that I agree with it. Nor will I buy into the alternative ways some people here have chosen to answer the cognitive dissonance of having a spouse in love with two people at the same time: geneticly wired to cheat, broken/history of abuse, Bad people who had to have cheated in their past. I don't think everyone cheats from a position of lack or damage. I believe that just as many if not ore cheat from a strong position.

 

I'd say that in your case indadvertantly stepping INTO an affair with a person you did not know to be married or in another relationship explains perfectly YOUR remorse for the betrayed persons.

 

In my case, my WW's AP was in fact a previous BS co-worker who LOST his first Wife to her AP. So I think from where I stand, his transgressing the lines of his work ethic to have sex with a married woman with a young daughter, who knew that it would end horribly for no fewer than 4 people and who had experience with his own betrayal when they had 2 kids at home makes me wonder WHERE one is going to find this enormous compassion for other human beings which you speak of. That he thought he could do to me what some other man did to his previous wife doesn't convince me that remorse is something I ought to look forward to.

 

Add to that that my WW and her AP are both tenured professors who teach in the sphere of education and I cannot but protest they had the resources to think "clearly" and chose not to.

Edited November 8, 2015 by fellini

[purplesorrow]

And Fellini I will always feel terribly for BS because of my part in her pain.

 

I don't have an intimate relationship with other custom in Harvey Nick's food Hall but yesterday when I backed into someone and stepped into them and they dropped something I apologised, and picked up what she dropped. Because we are both human beings.

 

I don't feel sorry for ExMM. Incidentally your definition of intimate and mine probably are not the same.

 

I'm sorry you don't embrace humanitarianism.

 

Hi NL, the reality is a lot of ow don't think and feel as you do. Unlike yourself, most entered the affair fully knowing the ws was married. So they knew the person they were dealing with was capable of hurting someone they professed to love at one time (their spouse). The ow was fine because that hurt wasn't being directed at them. Once it is, suddenly it is unjust and wrong. Even when it's all over, some still justify their part. "If he was happy at home, he wouldn't have come to me"; "she is so cruel to him"; "she is so... (Fill in the blank)". I don't expect remorse nor a true apology from someone like that. They shouldn't ask for empathy they weren't willing to offer themselves.

[NewLeaf512]

Let me be as clear as possible. The only one who should not be expected to feel remorse etc is BS

 

I do feel unbelievable remorse for everyone I had a hand in hurting in any way.

 

 

There is no time that I will give up on the human race. If we accept the status quo and stop learning and enlightening ourselves we give up hope for a better world.

[fellini]

Let me be as clear as possible. The only one who should not be expected to feel remorse etc is BS

 

I do feel unbelievable remorse for everyone I had a hand in hurting in any way.

 

 

There is no time that I will give up on the human race. If we accept the status quo and stop learning and enlightening ourselves we give up hope for a better world.

 

 

It's a merit on your part not to give up on the human race. But the part of the human race that we are addressing here, as I have tried to argue, are fully formed, largely very educated (in many intellectual, social and moral aspects of the world) people and are quite clearly accomplished adults. If these people are predisposed "to lose everything, for a glimmer of what?", as Esther Perel asks... then it seems to me the issue is not about "giving up" or not in the human race, but accepting that the consequences of free will are not always oriented towards those values we have all agreed upon.

 

No, we must accept, in spite of our best intentions, that some people prefer and will stubbornly fight against reason and the greater good in order merely to satisfy a most selfish personal need.

[NewLeaf512]

It's a merit on your part not to give up on the human race. But the part of the human race that we are addressing here, as I have tried to argue, are fully formed, largely very educated (in many intellectual, social and moral aspects of the world) people and are quite clearly accomplished adults. If these people are predisposed "to lose everything, for a glimmer of what?", as Esther Perel asks... then it seems to me the issue is not about "giving up" or not in the human race, but accepting that the consequences of free will are not always oriented towards those values we have all agreed upon.

 

No, we must accept, in spite of our best intentions, that some people prefer and will stubbornly fight against reason and the greater good in order merely to satisfy a most selfish personal need.

 

I reject it

[fellini]

I reject it

 

and that is supposed to do what? prevent you from being cheated on?

 

All the love in the world I had for my WW, my child, the love my daughter had for her mother could not stop her from making an absolute fool of herself in order to have a taste of what is on the other side of decency and respect.

 

You can reject it and then what? It stops happening to you?

[ladydesigner]

There is no time that I will give up on the human race. If we accept the status quo and stop learning and enlightening ourselves we give up hope for a better world.

 

I love this! (((NewLeaf512))) You are a very kind and understanding person. Your inside beauty is always prevalent on this site. Thank you!

[minimariah]

Let me be as clear as possible. The only one who should not be expected to feel remorse etc is BS

 

I do feel unbelievable remorse for everyone I had a hand in hurting in any way.

 

 

There is no time that I will give up on the human race. If we accept the status quo and stop learning and enlightening ourselves we give up hope for a better world.

 

it's not about giving up on human race.

 

it's about growing up and seeing the world for what it really is. and it's not a fair place to live in. fellini said it all, your positivity is awesome but you lack maturity that should go with it.

[ladydesigner]

it's about growing up and seeing the world for what it really is. and it's not a fair place to live in. fellini said it all, your positivity is awesome but you lack maturity that should go with it.

 

Yep I learned this one the hard way.

[waterwoman]

it's not about giving up on human race.

 

it's about growing up and seeing the world for what it really is. and it's not a fair place to live in. fellini said it all, your positivity is awesome but you lack maturity that should go with it.

 

 

Yes. I was a Pollyanna floating in cloud of my own thoughts. I suffered from depression but i never saw that as the fault of the world, I knew it was me that was the problem. I never used a sort of reverse pathetic fallacy and blamed everything and everyone else for my feelings. Then H had his stupid little fling and my cloud evaporated and I fell flat on my arse. The world is still a fantastic place but I am more aware of the worm in the apple - and I don't trust automatically anymore - in fact my default position is to mistrust. I hate that. I guess I grew up but I am not such a generous soul as I used to be.