I need some help here

[jmargel]

TY Bubbles.. I appreciate that

 

We went out last night to see her niece in a piano recital. She was actually being affectionate sitting next to me so I put my arm around her. Her sister-in-law said 'I know you two want one', she meant a baby. Her sister-in-law is pregnant and is all excited.

 

We left and she wanted to goto the mall, which was fine. On the way over yet again the conversation of the pool matches came up. I really didn't want to talk about it much. The conversation went into about her ex. I told her that if it was me, I wouldn't want to shoot. Knowing I still see my ex-gf doing something I like to do, being on the same team. She didn't say anything. She just said that she doubts he's going to be on it next season. I'm like why? She said 'She didn't know'. That's all she can gather. I then told her if he was expecting something more from it then he's just setting himself up and that I trust you Brandy.

 

In the mall her attitude changed again. It was like 8:30 and I didn't eat yet. I told her I'd like to get something. She said she would with me. So she went to a store to shop in, and I just moseyed around in it. She got upset about that. I thought I was being a Gentlemen waiting for her. She's like 'You should have went off and done your own thing while I shopped'. I told her if she wanted that, I would have gotten something to eat while she shopped but I thought she wanted to sit down with me. She was very aggitated and I told her if she's going to swear at me then not to talk to me.

 

So, we looked for a place to eat while the mood turned sour. We were going to goto this one place and her dad's truck was there. She didn't want to go in because of obvious reasons. She then said 'Well you can drop me off, right?'. I'm like 'You have to be kidding me, right?'. At this point I knew it was because she was in her bad mood. So we found a place..

 

Sat down and were talking some. We started talking about us and I brought up the idea of counseling. She said she didn't want to. She already had 20 sessions. I'm like not even for the marriage, isn't it worth it? She said no again. I was about to walk out. She's like 'Jeff, I'm not even nice to you alot of the times'. I'm like 'Well why aren't you?', and she's like 'I don't know'. It's like she's trying to push me away saying "Why do you want to be with someone who treats you like that'. She mentioned that I'm too nice to her. I then told her that I do see the good in you and that I am not going to make that decision in ending it. You are. She then went on for about 20 minutes about how stressful her work has been, how she hates going there, how she looks at the clock and races out the door. I told her then it's time for you to change jobs.

 

I then was talking to her about her past how I believe alot of it is due to what has gone on in your life and stuff that you haven't dealt with. She's like I dealt with it inside. I'm like you did? Just three months ago you told me all these things you haven't dealt with. It really looked like she was going to cry and she kept looking up I think trying to keep the tears in. I can tell I hit a soft spot and she was getting defensive so I backed off of it. I told her neither of us have tried in this marriage and it's something I want to do. I can't make you do anything and it's your choice as well.

 

The rest of the night was fine, woke up this morning really late. I told her I'd call us both off from work. I can tell she's exhausted. She didn't want to, saying she needed to get things done there. I just feel like she's giving everything she's got to push herself away from me. Her mom has said she's done that in the past. I know there's not much I can do but go along for the ride and try to be supportive. I'm going to give her a very hard time trying to come up with a legitimate reason on why she shouldn't be with me. It's to allow her to maybe finally realize that the things she is doing is because of what is going on inside her, not anybody else.

[tokyo]

I'm glad you manage to stay so calm. From your post it's clear that she still loves you, so don't lose faith.

[Mz. Pixie]

J-

 

The part how she's telling you how you're nice to her and why would you want to be with someone who treats you like that?? That doesn't sound so good to me.

She's definitely trying to push you away. The answer is why???

[jmargel]

I wish I knew why. She tells me that 'I dont know' and then told me that 'Im too sensitive'. Which is true. I mean the counselor even told me that. When we were at the sessions she would tell me to ease up on that and that she needs to be a little more sensitive.

 

Ever since I've known her she's had these moods. Almost like bi-polar. I think it's because she gets hurt so easily but doesn't show it in the normal way. She shows it with anger and lashing out. I know she wants it to work with me but she gets frustrated easily and has a tendency of things can or should 'always be better than what they are'. She's like that in everything she does. Even when she went to school she got awesome grades but even if the rest were all A's, that one B would just stand out to her as a sore thumb.

 

I told her what Blind_Otter told me that I don't think she knows how to look at a relationship as good because that's all she knows. She got defensive saying that's not true but then I could see in her eyes they got watery. When I was telling her that the only people in your life that have had a good relationship were your grandparents. And even he is on anti-depressants.

 

One other thing.. My counsin is a spiritualist. I don't know if you guys believe in that but Brandy does. She is legitimate too. She's been used by the state police to find missing people, etc.. So she read Brandy's palm. Spent about an hour doing it. She had Brandy crying. She never met her before but from what she said to us is that Brandy gets hurt very, very easily and she needs alot of love even though she doesn't show that she needs it. That we need to learn to communicate very well. And that she needs to take it easy on me since she can get hurt so quick. Maybe I can get Brandy to talk to her again. I know it's nothing like a counselor but she has a way of interacting with people on a deep level pretty easily.

[CurlyIam]

What's gonna happen when you run out of spiritualists? Jeff, you can't save someone from themself. Let her be, let her try, let her come to you. She won't change unless she understands she needs to. I feel as if you were this mom who keeps repeating to herself: "all my child needs in love, all my child needs is love" while indulging all her kid's fists. If you don't change anything in the way you behave, what makes you think that the outcome of your actions is going to be different??

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by jmargel

Ever since I've known her she's had these moods. Almost like bi-polar. I think it's because she gets hurt so easily but doesn't show it in the normal way. She shows it with anger and lashing out. I know she wants it to work with me but she gets frustrated easily and has a tendency of things can or should 'always be better than what they are'. She's like that in everything she does. Even when she went to school she got awesome grades but even if the rest were all A's, that one B would just stand out to her as a sore thumb.

 

This sounds so familiar - the bipolar thing. I have thought I had a wide range of problems, but this especially...my therapist said nope, you're not a classic bipolar, the PTSD (post traumatic stress disorder) mimics a lot of other mental illnesses.

 

The pushing away - is a defense mechanism. My guess, from my own experience, is that there is a part of herself she holds close and protects, and fears anyone ever touching - because she has been violated, intimately and physically, so many times that the only real "safe place" that exists for her is a tiny corner of her mind. And when you love, that love CAN touch that part of you. Others who have not experienced severe trauma can't understand the terror that that can inflict. Because the loss of control is frightening. The intimacy and then the ability of that intimate to hurt you becomes scarey.

 

So you push people away. Better to do that first, than let them in to suffer agonies later when they flip on you and hurt you. Not that this is reality - it's the abnormal thought process of a trauma survivor. A lot of veterans with PTSD become loners with no friends for this very reason.

 

I somehow think, from what you described, that you two can endure. I think if she was showing some emotion -- there is hope.

 

And you ARE a good man, don't forget that.

[jmargel]

I am going to see the counselor tomorrow. I'm going to order that book that you suggested eariler in this post. All I am going to tell Brandy is that the counselor mentioned this book and it might be a good read. Then I'll leave it upto her if she wants to read it. I don't want to push her away even more by doing this.

 

Curly what am I suppose to do? Just ignore her? I have not been affectionate towards her. I've shown her some love but not to the extent that I have before. Yes what she is doing is hurting me alot. It's something I live with everyday. Brandy needs alot more than love. She needs things that no one else can give her but herself.

 

I feel like I'm going nuts..

[CurlyIam]

What to do? First of all, stop acting as if you were guilty of her past. I believe you feel guilty of the way you treated your ex and try to make it up with Brandy. You did nothing wrong to her. Other people did.

 

What you're to do? I don't know, stop letting her bully you all the time? Stop allowing her to yell at you whenever she feels like? Make her say "I'm sorry" when she gets the sour attitude!! Ask her to respect you! That's a start.

 

You're giving in to her 200%. Jeff, it's not your fault. It's nobody's fault! Make her accountable for the fact that she is not in charge with her life and she's about to ruin yours.

[jmargel]

I do tell her when enough is enough in regards to her verbal assualts. Yelling at her won't do any good about it. When I mentioned to her that she really hasn't tried in this marriage she mentioned that she would. Otter hits alot of good points something that I wish she would read. I wish somehow you would be able to email with her, but getting an email from a stranger would freak her out. As you can understand she doesn't open up, only to the people she extremely trusts. Four months of counseling still didn't get her to open up completely about her past.

 

I did my share of wrong in the past with my ex. However that is the past. I have forgiven myself and moved on. What I don't want to do is repeat my mistakes by just ignoring her or neglecting her. That's what her ex did to her. She fell in love with me because of who I am. I'm not dousing her with love and attention. I know she wants to come to me, she has mentioned that. However I am still going to give her the opportunity to do things with me. If I make her feel left out that is only going to hurt her.

 

She is going through a difficult time, I am as well. She is my wife and I vowed that I would love her for better or worse. Like I told her right now things are worse. But I am not going to give up on her. I rely on God alot as well. It may take an actual event for her to realize what is important in her life. That, I don't know. I wish I did.

 

Like I told her numerous times, I just want to live a happy, peaceful life with her.

[JadeStar]

You're a good man jmargel, hang in there!

 

 

 

 

Jade

[CurlyIam]

What does your answer have to do with what I've told you? I'm not telling you to agress her. I'm not telling you to yell at her.

 

I'm telling you to stand up for yourself. Start here. You have to start somewhere. Start right HERE.

[jmargel]

Curly.. I do stand up for myself. Being nice and showing love is not cowarding down. As for this whole pool thing situation if I tell her to stop being on the team, she will leave. Because she's going to take that as I won't let her spend time with her dad. As much as it hurts that she is doing this to me I have no choice but to trust her. I guess you can say this is the ultimate trust.

 

Don't you think I would love to say to her 'No you are not going to be on that team' and have her say 'Sure Jeff, if it bothers you I won't do it'. You know how that is going to turn out. Either she'll up & leave or she'll agree to it but then resent me when her dad keeps filling her head that I'm just this awful person, etc..

 

Right now I have to think on what would her dad NOT want. Her dad doesn't want us to get along or be together. So I have to do the opposite of what my anger wants me to do. Trust me, this is NOT easy. That's why I'm venting on here so much. I'm just hoping she wakes up to all of this and truly realizes what she's doing. On what is important to her in life. I can't lecture her or force her to realize this.

 

I would love for her to come up to me one day and apologize for the hurt she's put me through and want me to at least watch her play. If not and she decides to leave then it will be her in the end that will be regretting that. She will never find anyone else like me. Not someone who is this truly committed to her. My love for her is very deep. That's something she would be missing out on.

[EnigmaXOXO]

I feel like I'm going nuts..

 

Not "nuts" yet…but you're likely heading for a break down if you allow your determination to 'fix' Brandy (or mold her into the perfect wife) to become an all encompassing obsession.

 

I was wondering J, have you ever been attracted to a woman who didn't need to be rescued in some way? I don't know you well enough, but from reading your posts about your previous relationships, it seems you suffer from the dreaded 'wounded bird syndrome.'

 

Perhaps at some later time you'll want to sit down and really examine why it is you seem to fixate on damsels in distress. You'll also have to ask yourself the tough questions: Am I really 'in love' with this person INCLUDING all their faults - Or might I be 'in love' with the idea of becoming someone's hero and savior?

 

Sometimes when you genuinely care about someone and want so bad to help them, you can confuse sympathy and compassion with 'love.' Even on a professional level, much care must be taken to maintain a safe emotional buffer between therapist and client to avoid unhealthy 'crushes' from developing. I'm not suggesting that you don't really 'love' Brandy, rather I'm asking you to question what your own definition of 'love' is. And more importantly, why it is you felt such urgency to rush to the alter with someone you have been struggling to "fix" (and are STILL struggling to fix) since the first day you met?

 

While I admire your dogged determination and noble heart, I'm worried that LS's resident 'knight in shiny armor' will become the tragic martyr for dysfunctional relationships if he doesn't first learn how to protect himself and choose his relationship partners more carefully. I'm still cheering for you J... I love it when the 'good guy' wins! But I must admit, this is becoming almost too painful to watch. I don't even want to imagine how agonizing and frustrating it must be for you to actually be living this nightmare.

[whichwayisup]

Don't you think I would love to say to her 'No you are not going to be on that team' and have her say 'Sure Jeff, if it bothers you I won't do it'. You know how that is going to turn out. Either she'll up & leave or she'll agree to it but then resent me when her dad keeps filling her head that I'm just this awful person, etc..

 

She should be doing just that, but that isn't who she is nor will she ever be. Sounds like she's a freespirit in a way and doesn't want to closed in or told what to do or not to do by anyone - Even you unfortunately. Doesn't make her a bad person, just makes her unique in her own way as she has her own mind. I totally understand her way of thinking, due to her own experiences and her upbringing and all the other things that has happened to her but she should really be more open and compromising to you.

 

Right now I have to think on what would her dad NOT want. Her dad doesn't want us to get along or be together. So I have to do the opposite of what my anger wants me to do. Trust me, this is NOT easy. That's why I'm venting on here so much. I'm just hoping she wakes up to all of this and truly realizes what she's doing. On what is important to her in life. I can't lecture her or force her to realize this.

 

Great idea and hope it works. As long as you're doing this for HER sake and not her father. His opinion and thoughts of you aren't going to change no matter what you do - Kinda damned if you do damned if you don't senario! That would drive me insane Jeff and I really commend you for the way you're handling this. It isn't easy.

 

I would love for her to come up to me one day and apologize for the hurt she's put me through and want me to at least watch her play. If not and she decides to leave then it will be her in the end that will be regretting that. She will never find anyone else like me. Not someone who is this truly committed to her. My love for her is very deep. That's something she would be missing out

 

She may DO that - Don't write her off yet because from what you've said there are times she seems quite vunerable and wants to open up to you then she all of a sudden backs down and clams up.

 

You are right, she won't find anybody like you or the love you have for her, the patience of staying and wanting to make it work. You've made that choice NOT to walk out on her -NO matter what. I would hope someday soon she realizes what a good man she has infront of her.

[CurlyIam]

No, she won't. She won't realise what a great man you are. You're not letting her. The truth is that things like "she'll never meet anyone like me", "she'll realise that no one will ever love her like I do" it's BS.

 

They love themselves MORE. And they will survive long after people like you leave! Maybe, maybe, long after you are gone, they learn something from this experience.

 

 

 

BO, I love you to death and I do believe that the abuse you were subjected to is real and inflicted great pain to you, but I don't think this is Brandy's case. I say "Bull"! It isn't right, Jeff. It isn't right for her to torture you like this because of her own deamons! She won't change, she won't suddenly realise what a great fella you are, things are NEVER gonna change. This is your reality, Jeff. If you love her enough to live with it, with her calling all the shots and doing whatever she feels like, fine. But stop this nonsense. Nothing is EVER going to change. It's your personal hell. Open your eyes, Jeff, stop lying to yourself.

[jmargel]

Enigma, Brandy and me were good friends before she started to open herself upto me. By then I already had feelings for her. It's not that I go out choosing to find someone to save. It just so happened that my ex-fiancee and now my wife had both had bad pasts.

 

If I had a magic wand I would have loved for Brandy to have lived my childhood. Not for me but for herself. It's something that was taken away from her. Yes, I'm living a nightmare right now by what is happening but I can only imagine what she's gone through. I look upto her for what she's been through and what she's made of herself. She could have easily given up and become another statistic. However it was her who got herself out of the bad situation and into school. This was even against the advice of her own family & her ex. When she came to me for advice about that I strongly encouraged her to go. She needed to do this for herself.

 

I love her for all the beauty she has and possesses. Please don't think of her as a monster or a total b*tch. She's not. She has a heart of gold it's just hard for her to express it. She gets hurt easily and instead of crying or telling me it comes out in anger. Along with that she gets frustrated easily and it's partly due to her current situation and her past. She does have a soft side to her. I remember I wrote her a love letter for Xmas. I had it in my drawer before I was going to give it to her. She came upon it and read it while I was "sleeping". She was crying while she read it.

 

I'm not looking to be her hero. Although it would be nice to know if she looks upto me. I'm not doing this for any other reason than because I love her. I know she's trying even though sometimes it doesn't seem that way. I think she feels that what she does isn't good enough for me and sometimes I think that because I compare it to what others have done for their spouse. She is a free spirit and I have known that since the day I've met her. She's extremely independent. Her committing herself to me and living with me took alot for her. Not because it was me, because of who she is. When we were just friends I remember her saying that she would never get married or live with a guy. I just told her you never know when that right guy might come along.

 

I'm not writing her off any chance soon. I'm leaning on God that this situation right now will pass and he will lead us into better things. I pray to him everyday that I hope she can get the help she needs so she can find true happiness and contentment in her heart. Before we even became a couple I told her that my main concern is our happiness. Whatever that may be. It just seems lately like with her family it's been hard on her. Like in their own way they are trying to pressure her to end it with me or at least make it very difficult for us to be given the chance to have a loving, fulfilling marriage. I will never forgive them for that. Granted they have her heart at their best interest so they think they do. However they need to not interfere and let her at least enjoy what we have together.

 

Curly no one has ever given her the chance to 'change'. All the men in her life totally neglected her and left her. If she never changes that's something I have no control over. What am I suppose to do? Just walk out on her? Trust me I'm not buying her roses are anything like that right now.

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by CurlyIam

BO, I love you to death and I do believe that the abuse you were subjected to is real and inflicted great pain to you, but I don't think this is Brandy's case. I say "Bull"! It isn't right, Jeff. It isn't right for her to torture you like this because of her own deamons! She won't change, she won't suddenly realise what a great fella you are, things are NEVER gonna change. This is your reality, Jeff. If you love her enough to live with it, with her calling all the shots and doing whatever she feels like, fine. But stop this nonsense. Nothing is EVER going to change. It's your personal hell. Open your eyes, Jeff, stop lying to yourself.

 

She carried a baby full term and the baby died at birth. She was subjected to a period of sexual assault from a close loved one that, as I recall, lasted 6 months....that is an intense experience, IMO.

[CurlyIam]

I didn't know about the baby. As far as the loved one abuse, she's drown to him all over again.

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by CurlyIam

I didn't know about the baby. As far as the loved one abuse, she's drown to him all over again.

 

No the physical abuse with her ex is one thing - she was raped several times by a relative in her teenaged years.

[CurlyIam]

Jeff only said "bad childhood".

 

How is one to be able to heal all these issues? Is she seeking help? Counceling? How is one person see to all her needs and fears, given her deamons consuming her? This is insane! It's like trying to fight a dragon with Middle Age weapon instruments... this is beyond me, I'm sorry. I cannot relate to it and I'm afraid that my opinion is biased because I have never been subjected to any of these ordeals. I continue thinking that seeing a shrinck on permenant basis is the way to go.

[jmargel]

She wasn't physically abused by her ex. He abused her emotionally. Never wanted to see her except to show her off to his friends. Never went to any of her family's fucntions, never even went to her birthday party. Xmases he could have cared less. She would come to see him where she would just sit there watching him talk to his friends the whole night.

 

She lost a baby during birth. They told her it would not survive about 2 months prior to it. It was living inside her but they said the birth would kill it. He had heart problems. He did die. While it was not her ex's baby he took it upon himself to make the arrangements to have it buried in his plot with his last name. It all happened in one day, while she was out of it with meds.

 

She was raped by someone she considered a step-brother. He was the son of a woman her dad was dating for a long time. He did this for 6 months. She pleaded to her mom to make sure the doors were locked when she left for her shift, yet sometimes she would forget (they lived out in the country). This guy would come and even at one point walked into the bathroom while she was taking a shower and waited til she got out to rape her.

 

After all of that her mom married a guy who would walk around naked in front of her and ask her to do inappropirate things, such as rub lotion on him while he's either naked or wearing tiny bikinis. She feared being in the same house as him. She told me about this & her brother. We both wanted to go after him but she said not too. She didn't want to lose her mom over this. When he was arrested for moleting a 17 year old boy last year, Brandy finally told her mom. Her mom was shocked but then tried to play it down. It hurt Brandy so much. Both of them were in alot of pain. He got 6 months house arrest and she's still with him. He's like an outcast, family outings over there are very awkward.

 

Along with that as I said her parents divorced when she was 14. Often the police would be over looking for her dad and fights would happen. He would promise her to take her places, do things with her only to never show up. It's something she expected to happen. It's like she grew up without ever knowing what true love really is. That's why I am being so patient with her. Personally I don't think I would be living today if I had to go through what she did.

[tokyo]

I can only say, give that woman some credit. I'm not sure about the kind of weird behavioral patterns that some posters would show if they had experienced the same amount of abuse she went through.

[Mz. Pixie]

J-

 

Reading Brandy's trama again, and thinking about what B-O said about the trauma. What she is saying does ring true in me, alot.

 

I've been having some issues this week- in relation to letting go and giving myself totally to this man I'm in love with. I can see so much of me in what B-O said today. I totally believe him about 98% of the time, but the other 2% doesn't.

 

I don't want you to give up on her, but B-O and I have both done counseling for our issues. Brandy has but hasn't finished. If she wants the marriage to work and for you to stay, counseling should be a must.

 

A friend who suffered way more abuse than me growing up (saying alot)- told me the other day- she's like 50- "You know, the scab- it never goes away- but I've learned not to pick at it as much as I used to". That's pretty much sums it up.

 

Here's hoping Brandy's scar can scab over soon.

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by jmargel

It's like she grew up without ever knowing what true love really is. That's why I am being so patient with her. Personally I don't think I would be living today if I had to go through what she did.

 

THIS is what makes you a special husband and person - because you can see this and recognize it. Surprisingly, the human being is an absurdly resilient creature. You would be surprised at the amount of physical, emotional, mental, and sexual torture one can go through and surive. Now, surviving is quite different from THRIVING - and this is the key, and probably the achilles heel of women like Brandy and myself.

 

We learn how to survive, through all these things. But we don't learn the appropriate tactics to thrive and naturally adapt and change our defense mechanisms. They are always up. Alarm bells are always going off. The process of identifying inadequate coping skills and re-training yourself to use more appropriate ones is long and arduous. I absolutely HATE going to therapy. It stirs up all the old crap I've been through and initially I am in a limbo of confused feelings from almost 22 years ago and older....it's like, as I said in my own thread, lancing a boil or an infected gland. You endure moments of white-hot agony, leftover reactions from the incidents that you supressed in order to survive.

 

You never really heal from this stuff, I've heard over and over again. You learn better ways to cope. It's a long process though. It takes a VERY strong and self-assured man to handle a woman like this. I think JM is such a man. Having LS to vent on is probably a good thing, though.

[EnigmaXOXO]

It just so happened that my ex-fiancee and now my wife had both had bad pasts.

 

I was also referring to the other woman you were involved with for a time who was in a bad marriage and was looking to you for 'rescue'. Your greatest strength J…your bleeding heart…has also been your akiles heal.

 

I love her for all the beauty she has and possesses. Please don't think of her as a monster or a total b*tch. She's not.

 

I don't. I see her as a child who still has much growing up to do before she is ready for an adult relationship. Her behavior is much like a rebellious teenager who's living away from home and parental rules for the very first time. It's almost as if she's subconsciously jumped from one father figure to another and is now having trouble choosing between the two. I could be wrong…but one thing I *do* know is that it's NOT fair to you to have to parent your wife. If you assume that role, the two of you will never establish the loving, romantic, mutually satisfying relationship you desire.

 

I'm not looking to be her hero. Although it would be nice to know if she looks upto me.

 

Love isn't so much about looking "up" to your partner as it is meeting them eye to eye and respecting them as an "equal." The two of you are standing toe to toe…but more as opponents instead of as team players.

 

I understand the in-law and ex-boyfriend factor complicates things, but I see this as more of a symptom of your relationship problems rather than the cause of them. No one would be able to play 'Divide and Conquer' with your relationship if the two of you had solidarity or formed a 'united front' from the start.

 

It's difficult to predict whether all the councilors, spiritualists, palm readers and concerned relatives you can rally in your corner will be able help Brandy finally reach some epiphany so you can begin mending all the kinks in your relationship armor. She may even end up resenting you for forcing your hand in the end, rather than feeling any sort of appreciation or gratefulness for your dedication towards her personal growth. And it could take years before she has matured emotionally enough to understand the meaning of 'compromise'. . . Maybe never. Also, "growing up" can also mean "growing apart" and she may come to the realization one day that she entered into this marriage for all the wrong reasons.

 

But so long as you're already aware if that…and are willing to fight the good fight…then I suppose one day you will finally prove to us all that love and patience can conquer all. Shoot, we all need heroes!