things have been going downhill, but last night about put me over

[autumnnight]

Oldshirt, you are one of the men on here I respect the most.

 

Here is what I would toss out based on my own womany-ness and just my own experience with the very personal and intimate issue of sexual refusal.

 

1. She needs some boundary help. She is a woman going through a life change, who has likely been in an emotional rut of two, and her flirty, slightly tipsy self was apparently a big hit. I don't want to be overly dramatic....but she needs to nip that in the bud NOW. When a changing, hormonal, over 35 year old woman suddenly discovers that other people (see men) find her engaging and entertaining, it can be dangerous. That is why I think she needs to know how uncomfortable that made you. It's easier not to fall off a cliff when you are fifteen yards behind the fence than when you are hanging onto the branch just over the edge, if ya know what I mean.

 

2. It could be worth trying to reignite some spark, make her "feel like a natural woman" etc. We need that stuff when are bodies are trying to tell us our sexy days are done. BUT....it is not up to you to singlehandedly "make her want sex." Drive or no drive, the fact that she loves you and made vows to you mean she needs to put forth effort as well. Low drive people don't like this, but when you marry someone, you ARE promising to meet their need for intimacy. Period.

 

This might be one of those "phases" we women go through that drive men crazy. Try to hand in there.

[Mr. Lucky]

I don't minimize the discouragement you feel and the dilemma you face. My wife and I have discussed that we were actually fortunate to both have issues - her struggles with menopause and my cardiac disease - at roughly the same time. As a result, we were were able to support each other without the spectre of a disgruntled spouse in the wings. As part of recovery, I had to grasp how different her needs had become, not an easy task for a knucklehead like me. Had she not been patient, who knows what might have happened...

 

Mr. Lucky

[oldshirt]

You're hurt and angry with her. I have little doubt that her dismissal of your desires is rooted in hurt and anger toward you.

 

This is fixable, but not if you both stay stubbornly in hurt and anger. The fix is taking down the walls and being vulnerable to each other again. That's where the passion lies.

 

Most of my hurt and anger from last week has died down. The whole reason for me posting this is to get input on going forward and not hold on to hurt and anger.

 

For her to tear down walls though is a major thing. The worst thing in the world to her is to address personal issues. She can talk about kid and house issues, but anything having to do with herself and she shuts down instantly.

 

She is also one of the most passive aggressive people I've ever met. It's even a running joke about how she stews over issues.

 

She'd rather have root canal than talk about something that's honked her off.

[Sastrugi]

Most of my hurt and anger from last week has died down. The whole reason for me posting this is to get input on going forward and not hold on to hurt and anger.

 

For her to tear down walls though is a major thing. The worst thing in the world to her is to address personal issues. She can talk about kid and house issues, but anything having to do with herself and she shuts down instantly.

 

She is also one of the most passive aggressive people I've ever met. It's even a running joke about how she stews over issues.

 

She'd rather have root canal than talk about something that's honked her off.

 

You are either married to my wife or her twin sister... to a "T".

I sure can relate to your post. Sorry you have to go through this. I, like other posters have really appreciated your advice in the past. So I hope I can help a little.

 

Oldshirt, you seem really passive ( aggressive) about this situation. Since you guys have done the MC route in the past, you probable have developed a method for discussing the hard stuff.

 

 

Now is that time to dust off your method ( we use a certain phrase to signal its time for a heart to heart.) As others have said, please reset your boundaries with your wife. I read your story and like you believe your wife would have gone Wayward if you were not present.

 

Also I think you should note to your wife that you saw her "game face" on and you were really hurt that you can no longer do that for her. Instead you noticed she was gaming for someone else.

 

 

BTW - was she targeting any one in particular or just throwing out a broad net?

 

At least get the discussion going, even if it is in bits an pieces.

 

All the best,

S.

[sandylee1]

I think she wants some excitement....Some romancing and seduction. After a while you take each other for granted don't try anything new and stick to routine.

 

She probably wants you to treat her like she is your everything and pay her attention and shower her with compliments.

 

In showing your appreciation of her, even if giving her a back rub or massage, do it without the expectation of sex. Otherwise it will seem as though that's your motivation for being nice.

 

She may want to try something new ,but not know how to suggest it , without you feeling it's a criticism or an indication that she's not satisfied with your sex life.

[toolforgrowth]

I think she wants some excitement....Some romancing and seduction. After a while you take each other for granted don't try anything new and stick to routine.

 

She probably wants you to treat her like she is your everything and pay her attention and shower her with compliments.

 

In showing your appreciation of her, even if giving her a back rub or massage, do it without the expectation of sex. Otherwise it will seem as though that's your motivation for being nice.

 

She may want to try something new ,but not know how to suggest it , without you feeling it's a criticism or an indication that she's not satisfied with your sex life.

 

This won't work. I did all of that, and my ex wife still ended up cheating.

 

The OP cannot reward bad behavior on his wife's part. That makes him a doormat.

 

She needs to assess and work on her issues. If I were the OP, I'd start detaching. She needs consequences, not showering praise for disrespecting him.

[oldshirt]

Responses in bold below

 

 

Oldshirt, you seem really passive ( aggressive) about this situation. Since you guys have done the MC route in the past, you probable have developed a method for discussing the hard stuff.

 

yeah my method of discussing the hard stuff is to mention it then duck and cover and run for safety LOL

 

but all kidding aside, I have taken a step back with this situation. Normally I do put it out there. The reason I've held back this time is for starters I have no evidence of anything, it's all gut instinct and my gut could be wrong. I wanted to get input here first.

 

We are going to have people over to our house this weekend and there is one thing I'm going to bring up from last weekend, that I haven't mentioned here yet, and see how that goes and see if that segways into a discussion about more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also I think you should note to your wife that you saw her "game face" on and you were really hurt that you can no longer do that for her. Instead you noticed she was gaming for someone else.

 

I'm not sure how to address that yet since I'm just going on gut instinct.

 

 

BTW - was she targeting any one in particular or just throwing out a broad net?

 

broad net.

 

.

[autumnnight]

This won't work. I did all of that, and my ex wife still ended up cheating.

 

The OP cannot reward bad behavior on his wife's part. That makes him a doormat.

 

She needs to assess and work on her issues. If I were the OP, I'd start detaching. She needs consequences, not showering praise for disrespecting him.

 

Honestly, I think the balanced solution lies somewhere in between "woo her into your bed" and "make the bitch pay."

 

This was one drunken night. Yeah, it should be addressed, but doing the 180 over a birthday evening is a bit......much. So is doing the jump through hoops to ear sex routine.

 

I think honest conversation and loving behavior are the most normal, what offline people do, bet.

[oldshirt]

Honestly, I think the balanced solution lies somewhere in between "woo her into your bed" and "make the bitch pay."

 

This was one drunken night. Yeah, it should be addressed, but doing the 180 over a birthday evening is a bit......much. So is doing the jump through hoops to ear sex routine.

 

I think honest conversation and loving behavior are the most normal, what offline people do, bet.

 

Yes it must be a balanced solution and not one of the extremes that both Sanylee and Toolforgrowth suggest.

 

Yes, I need to find a way to address her lack of desire for me and I need to have boundaries on what is and what is not acceptable behavior.

 

But at the end of the day she has to "want" to be with me and want to do things with me. It's not something I can demand or order her to do, nor is ignoring her or blowing her off going to fan the flames of desire.

 

For any marriage to be happy and healthy, there has to be fun and nuturing and respect etc along with responsibilities of paying the bills and getting the kids to all their stuff.

 

The 180 is for when someone has done something unacceptable and its time to move on with hour own life. That hasn't occurred yet.

 

How can I enforce consequences when the only thing I have to go on is a gut feeling she MIGHT have done something had I not been there???

 

What consequences are applicable when she wasn't in the mood to make a beast with two backs with me at the end of night on her bday????

 

Do you see the dilemma?

 

The real issue is more chronic and goes deeper into our dynamics than one night out that didn't go as I had hoped.

 

The real issue for me is her decreasing desire for me and her interest in sexuality with me that has been declining for a period of years and may be do at least in part to physiological forces that neither one of us can truly "fix."

 

Yes I was honked off the other night but I have nothing concrete to train the rifle sights on. I can tell her it upset me flirted with other dudes and then turned her back to me in bed, but she will just DARVO me and accuse me of whining and simply wanting more sex and making her feel inadequate again, and I really won't have anything to counter any of that with because it would just be me whining at that point.

[oldshirt]

.......in short, any actions I take will need to be reasonable and commensurate with what has actually happened and not what I feel in my gut MIGHT have happened.

[S2B]

You keep saying you're staying silent about this.

 

 

Discuss her bad behavior from the night of her birthday. That is concerning. It's not right that she participated with the men that way. And it's not right that she treated you with disdain/disrespect.

 

 

Since you don't have solid evidence of cheating - address the evidence you DO have.

 

 

You shouldn't be concerned with her reaction. If she over reacts then you have something to be concerned about.

 

Lay all the info out in a calm manner. Tell her how you feel about her bad behavior. Tell her it's disrespectful and makes her untrustworthy...from your perspective.

 

Inform her that things need to change - she needs to consider YOUR needs and feelings within the marriage and ask how she intends to accomplish that goal...

[xxoo]

Why are you even talking about consequences?

 

There is a marriage problem. It involves both of you. Have you even attempted to understand why she might be feeling distanced from you in the past few years? Is this something that you just ignored until the birthday event?

 

I'm going to make some guesses here. I'm guessing that she is resentful because she feels like she must have sex with you, like it or not, because of the history of what happened when the babies were born. And that resentment got worse as you obviously noticed that she wasn't enjoying the sex, even displayed faces of discomfort, but you still expected it.

[autumnnight]

.......in short, any actions I take will need to be reasonable and commensurate with what has actually happened and not what I feel in my gut MIGHT have happened.

 

And THIS is one of many reasons I have so much respect for you

[S2B]

You two need counseling.

 

1) for her to learn what respect and honor looks like

 

2) for you to learn to communicate with her without expecting her to get angry (that sucks!)

 

3) for you to discuss any unresolved I'll feelings between the two of you and get them resolved

 

4) to allow your needs/wants to be heard AND considered

 

5) for the dynamics and power shift within this Union to be balanced out

 

6) to determine if she expects to change her words/actions towards you

 

 

It's not right that your opinion, needs and desires have become invisible because you are afraid of her outcome.

 

Speak up man! Do it nicely. Get some help and guidance in getting to a better place within your marriage by having a voice and speaking YOUR truth!

 

For many, it starts with saying: when you do _____ I feel this. When you say ____ I hear ____ and it makes me feel ____. What can we do to change that? Let's work together towards a common goal of making this marriage better.

[autumnnight]

You two need counseling.

 

1) for her to learn what respect and honor looks like

How do you know she doesn't know what honor looks like..because she was inappropriate ONE night while drunk?

 

2) for you to learn to communicate with her without expecting her to get angry (that sucks!)

Yes.

 

3) for you to discuss any unresolved I'll feelings between the two of you and get them resolved

 

4) to allow your needs/wants to be heard AND considered

Yes, because it is a marital partnership, both their needs are important

 

5) for the dynamics and power shift within this Union to be balanced out

How do WE know what the overall balance of power is?

 

6) to determine if she expects to change her words/actions towards you

 

 

It's not right that your opinion, needs and desires have become invisible because you are afraid of her outcome.

 

Speak up man! Do it nicely. Get some help and guidance in getting to a better place within your marriage by having a voice and speaking YOUR truth!

 

For many, it starts with saying: when you do _____ I feel this. When you say ____ I hear ____ and it makes me feel ____. What can we do to change that? Let's work together towards a common goal of making this marriage better.

 

Responses in bold

[toolforgrowth]

Why are you even talking about consequences?

 

There is a marriage problem. It involves both of you. Have you even attempted to understand why she might be feeling distanced from you in the past few years? Is this something that you just ignored until the birthday event?

 

I'm going to make some guesses here. I'm guessing that she is resentful because she feels like she must have sex with you, like it or not, because of the history of what happened when the babies were born. And that resentment got worse as you obviously noticed that she wasn't enjoying the sex, even displayed faces of discomfort, but you still expected it.

 

We're talking about consequences because she disrespects him and was all over other men. It doesn't matter that it was only one night.

 

Would you be so understanding if your husband doesn't enjoy sex with you, got drunk on his birthday, and was grinding up against other women?

 

The OP can do what he wants. But I've already been down this path, and it led to infidelity. It wasn't until she faced harsh consequences for her inappropriate behavior that she actually started treating me like a human being again.

 

My two cents. Feel free to take 'em or leave 'em. But at this rate, I have a feeling about what's going to happen next. He'll be posting about D-Day and will have joined the ranks of BH's. And by then it'll be too late.

[S2B]

Yes... This^^^

 

And coupled with the issue that he's afraid of her anger when he communicates with her.

 

Nothing is healthy or happy about that.

 

It needs work - a lot of work.

 

And yes, power is unbalanced since she's allowed to act [inappropriately] and he's afraid to talk to her about it. Add in that she's a grown woman grinding on other men and calling it dancing (and he's still afraid to speak up) and you have evidence of a lot of distinction in this Union.

 

Disrespect? Heck yes! What else would you call it?

 

 

I will not be surprised if an affair is uncovered. She's acting like it. She disregards him like it's happening... It is quacking like a duck.

Edited October 4, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Lanugage and redact quote of immediately preceding post

[autumnnight]

I gotta get off forums....

 

How many people think going in like some "Me boss of woman who need behave" caveman is going to help this marriage?

 

I get it. Lots of men on LS have been betrayed. But just because you're a hammer doesn't mean everything is a nail.

Edited October 4, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Redact full quote of immediately preceding post

[xxoo]

We're talking about consequences because she disrespects him and was all over other men. It doesn't matter that it was only one night.

 

Would you be so understanding if your husband doesn't enjoy sex with you, got drunk on his birthday, and was grinding up against other women?

 

If my husband had pain with sex, I'd be primarily empathetic and concerned for him. I would seek intimacy in ways that don't cause him pain, and encourage him to get the help that he needs to enjoy sex again--for him as well as for me. That's how he handled it when sex hurt me after babies, so I'd just follow his example.

 

She's been disrespected as well. The consequences are the current state of the marriage.

 

The grinding would be a whole different story if the OP were getting sexed up, as well. He might even encourage it. So it's really not about "good" and "bad", but rather about the relationship.

[oldshirt]

Let me address the "pain" issue so you have a more informed perspective of it and not jump to conclusions about my behavior.

 

There have been a good number of times we have been having sex and she will have a grimace on her face. I will stop and ask if she is ok. She will invariably answer "yes."

 

If I ask if she wants me to stop, she will say to keep going but just "hurry up."

 

If I ask if she's having pain, she will say, "it's fine." (And we all know what "fine" means.

 

If I stop, she gets mad like she did last week.

 

When I say she needs to communicate about having discomfort so we can either find something that doesn't hurt or address the discomfort, she gets defensive and angry feeling that I am criticizing her no matter how soft and sensitive I try to be.

 

So it's not like I am raping her and pressuring her to screw me through the pain. I try to be as accommodating and sensitive as possible, but she needs to bear some responsibility for her comfort as well and it usually isn't untill we are into the act and see the grimaced that I even know anything is wrong.

 

And it's not every time we have sex but it's getting to be more often than not.

 

So it's not like I am some ogre that is demanding she screw me dispute her discomfort. I am actually taking more initiative and responsibility to address her discomfort than she is.

[oldshirt]

If my husband had pain with sex, I'd be primarily empathetic and concerned for him. I would seek intimacy in ways that don't cause him pain, and encourage him to get the help that he needs to enjoy sex again--for him as well as for me. That's how he handled it when sex hurt me after babies, so I'd just follow his example.

 

She's been disrespected as well. The consequences are the current state of the marriage.

 

The grinding would be a whole different story if the OP were getting sexed up, as well. He might even encourage it. So it's really not about "good" and "bad", but rather about the relationship.

 

Read my post above about the pain issue and please tell me how I have disrespected her in any way.

 

And as far as getting "sex up" the other night, I can only speak for myself but I do NOT get sexed up by getting the cold shoulder and brush off from my wife while she dirty dances and plays sex games with other men!

 

I was as bout as far from being sexed up as you can get. I was the one that pulled her away from it when enough was enough. I did NOT encourage it.

[S2B]

Let me address the "pain" issue so you have a more informed perspective of it and not jump to conclusions about my behavior.

 

There have been a good number of times we have been having sex and she will have a grimace on her face. I will stop and ask if she is ok. She will invariably answer "yes."

 

If I ask if she wants me to stop, she will say to keep going but just "hurry up."

 

If I ask if she's having pain, she will say, "it's fine." (And we all know what "fine" means.

 

If I stop, she gets mad like she did last week.

 

When I say she needs to communicate about having discomfort so we can either find something that doesn't hurt or address the discomfort, she gets defensive and angry feeling that I am criticizing her no matter how soft and sensitive I try to be.

 

So it's not like I am raping her and pressuring her to screw me through the pain. I try to be as accommodating and sensitive as possible, but she needs to bear some responsibility for her comfort as well and it usually isn't untill we are into the act and see the grimaced that I even know anything is wrong.

 

And it's not every time we have sex but it's getting to be more often than not.

 

So it's not like I am some ogre that is demanding she screw me dispute her discomfort. I am actually taking more initiative and responsibility to address her discomfort than she is.

 

There's a lot going on and she isn't taking enough effort to explain it to you so the problem can be solved.

 

 

That's part of why counseling should be happening.

 

 

There's most likely more on her side that she's unwilling to tell you - so get to a professional to see if this can be addressed.

 

 

Not telling her your truth is equally detrimental.

 

Ya can't KNOW what the other person is feeling if they won't say what needs fixing.

 

If nothing else, communicating needs, wants and desires is really failing between the two of you. Shows lack of intimacy. You can work on that, right?

[oldshirt]

Ok so here is an honest question.

 

Those of you saying she needs to have consequences, what in your opinion(s) is a fair, measured consequence that is reasonable and commensurate with her dancing with another man in full view of and with full knowledge of both spouses?

 

Remember they didn't sneak off. They didn't grab a quick grind when no-one was looking. They went out on the dance floor in full view of both other spouses and returned after a song or two.

 

And what is a measured and commensurate consequence for sitting around a neighbors driveway playing truth or dare and talking smack when her husband was sitting right beside her the entire time.

 

Again no-one sneaked off and said or did anything. The whole thing played out under full view and knowledge of her husband.

 

And what is a measured and commensurate consequence for not having sex with me on her bday. What is the current sentence for that?

 

I can't and won't, do any consequences for what 'might' have happened if I wasn't there. I will only consider actions for what I know did happen.

 

I may be willing to discuss my hurt feelings and disappointment about my gut feelings but I can't impose any sanctions or consequences on something that didn't actually happen.

 

So what consequences are available for what did occur?

[S2B]

Ok so here is an honest question.

 

Those of you saying she needs to have consequences, what in your opinion(s) is a fair, measured consequence that is reasonable and commensurate with her dancing with another man in full view of and with full knowledge of both spouses?

 

Remember they didn't sneak off. They didn't grab a quick grind when no-one was looking. They went out on the dance floor in full view of both other spouses and returned after a song or two.

 

And what is a measured and commensurate consequence for sitting around a neighbors driveway playing truth or dare and talking smack when her husband was sitting right beside her the entire time.

 

Again no-one sneaked off and said or did anything. The whole thing played out under full view and knowledge of her husband.

 

And what is a measured and commensurate consequence for not having sex with me on her bday. What is the current sentence for that?

 

I can't and won't, do any consequences for what 'might' have happened if I wasn't there. I will only consider actions for what I know did happen.

 

I may be willing to discuss my hurt feelings and disappointment about my gut feelings but I can't impose any sanctions or consequences on something that didn't actually happen.

 

So what consequences are available for what did occur?

 

Therapy.

 

Things are amiss in the marriage. Therapy is a reasonable consequence when things get sideways like you're describing.

 

If she won't go - then you have a different decision to make.

[xxoo]

Let me address the "pain" issue so you have a more informed perspective of it and not jump to conclusions about my behavior.

 

There have been a good number of times we have been having sex and she will have a grimace on her face. I will stop and ask if she is ok. She will invariably answer "yes."

 

If I ask if she wants me to stop, she will say to keep going but just "hurry up."

 

If I ask if she's having pain, she will say, "it's fine." (And we all know what "fine" means.

 

If I stop, she gets mad like she did last week.

 

When I say she needs to communicate about having discomfort so we can either find something that doesn't hurt or address the discomfort, she gets defensive and angry feeling that I am criticizing her no matter how soft and sensitive I try to be.

 

So it's not like I am raping her and pressuring her to screw me through the pain. I try to be as accommodating and sensitive as possible, but she needs to bear some responsibility for her comfort as well and it usually isn't untill we are into the act and see the grimaced that I even know anything is wrong.

 

And it's not every time we have sex but it's getting to be more often than not.

 

So it's not like I am some ogre that is demanding she screw me dispute her discomfort. I am actually taking more initiative and responsibility to address her discomfort than she is.

 

I've been a woman in pain during intercourse. I've done the "it's fine" because I'm worried about leaving him frustrated. Letting him down. Being a bad wife.

 

He was the one to tell me, in no uncertain terms, that he didn't want to have sex that hurt me, or that I didn't enjoy. He insisted on abstaining from that. And I shouldn't worry about him. That I should focus on enjoying a cuddle and taking care of myself.

 

That was a HUGE relief to me, and heartwarming, and made me love him even more. That's the approach that worked for us, so it's what I recommend.

 

If you know she's uncomfortable, why even pursue it? I know, you want sex. I know sex is bonding. I know. But where is the concern for what it's doing to her sexual feelings for you? The long term damage it may be doing to your sex life? That break from sex, so that she can get healed after a birth, or adjust to menopausal symptoms, is an investment in a life long sexual relationship.