Betrayed...but not really...

[jen1447]

HA! If I'm settling, I'd be settling waaaaaay up. The women that I know now - who didn't know me when he and I met and have only heard of our relationship, since we broke up - are always asking What's wrong with you?!? If YOU don't want him, I'LL take him!!!" They're only half-kidding.

 

To me, being "in love" does require the fireworks; I've never minded - and actually look forward to - when the time arrives that the fireworks die down and it's replace by nice, softly-glowing embers that are ever-present. We had that, once. He wants it back. I don't know that I can provide it, again. I'm feeling very much like the Betrayed Spouse...when his OW was *simply* his job and she took everything he had to give...and then some.

 

I don't mean some objective, normative up-down/high-low as in "low quality/high quality" guys, I mean settling for less than you actually want or hope for.

 

You're a grown woman and I'm sure you know yourself and what you want, but ....the way you're talking just sounds really uninspired to me.

[angel.eyes]

I don't know. From what you say, you gave up a lot. Your career. You took any old job. You moved around for his career as he progressed. You helped raise his kids. After which he seemed ready to leave you behind when an opportunity overseas popped up. What were the positives of the ten years together for you? You don't mention any, but there had to be some pretty major ones since you're contemplating going back to him, now that he says marriage is on the table.

 

Also, people idealize situations and relationships with distance. Is he just interested in marriage because of the distance and space he was given? Three months after you move back in, will he still be as interested in getting married? Or will he escape back into his work and (emotional) unavailability again?

 

I'm just trying to get a better handle on your situation and provide some food for thought. I don't think there's an easy answer to your dilemma.

[kilgore]

OK, kids...y'all are so good at giving advice, now I want some input on MY situation...

 

My last LTR was 10+ years...he was my last, the one I'd be with 'til the end and forever.

 

Who knew "forever" came with an expiration date?

 

 

He's a good man...rough around the edges, but A Good Man. Solidly employed (for 20+ years with the same company), good values, good heart, good mind, good sense of humor...we share values and the same outlook on life. Butttttttt...he's a rather closed-off person. He's never been married, never had children, a life-long (at now, 50+ years) bachelor. He's had a couple of serious relationships...none as serious as ours.

 

I left him in 2011...after years (3+?) of telling him I wanted more, needed more...needed him to be more invested in *us*, and after realizing he couldn't be. His first - and only - love was his job and making money. Not to spend...just to have. After progressively growing more and more alone while together in *our* relationship, I'd had enough. There's no lonelier feeling in the world, than being alone while being *with* someone.

 

For a month, I packed my sh*t, ended my life with him, and set up My New Life somewhere else. He watched me; he helped me...took my car down to get serviced, making sure it was safe to drive 600+ miles away from him. Helped me carry my boxes down, watched as I took pictures down off the walls, sold stuff, and got rid of *our* life, one piece at a time.

 

It took him three months to check with me to see if I'd made it to my next destination, safely.

 

Since then (in the past 4 years), he's had time to think. He realizes he doesn't like life without me; I am the woman for him. He wants *us*; he wants us to be together. He wants me back.

 

For 4 years, I've seen him (2 or 3 times a year); each time, I've been stand-offish. I'm hurt; I'm rejected. I'm adrift; he didn't want *us* enough when there was an *us*; now, when there's not an *us*, he misses it. I gave my all; it wasn't enough...now, I'm not interested in giving any more of me, since my all wasn't enough.

 

Butttt, now I'm softening. He's hung in there, for 4+ years, to *prove* that he's all in. I feel like I've *punished* him enough; he's proven his staying power. I know I'm strong enough, that if I go back to giving it my all all and - once again - it's not enough, I'll survive it. I just don't want to do it, again...IF I'm stupid enough to NOT have learned my lesson well enough the first time.

 

I want to vent; I want disinterested, un-involved, impersonal input. I want to read things I've never thought of before...I want to consider things I've never thought of, before. Through it all, I'll make sense of it.

 

Have at. Ask questions to fill in blanks...be brutally honest, to make me think of things I've never considered, before...even if it's "What the hell...what do you have to lose?!?..."

 

I think it is worth another try - but on a short leash

[mrldii]

My take is that you have been waiting for this, which is why you have been holding on to this relationship all this time. You wanted him to prove himself to you. He finally got the message and is doing just that.

 

I think ball is in your court for now.

 

Yes, the ball is in my court...all I have to do is find a way to get over the 'betrayal' of his OW (his job) and it will all be fine.

 

Actually, there was no "waiting for this". After I left him and hit the road to drive the 600 miles south to my new home, it took him 3 months to check to see if I'd made it alright. It was a simple text message, asking it I was OK. I replied I was fine. A couple of weeks later, he called just to chat. It took a few months for him to open up and share how much he missed me...and wished we could be an *us*, again and how he'd been doing a lot of soul-searching and reading and had had some major paradigm shifts in his thinking and views.

 

About a year after I'd left was when he started the talk about marriage; like I said, both he and I had never wanted/need marriage (him for the first time, me for the third). But, I agreed that if we got back together, marriage would be a necessary step...and it would be necessary before my butt would move an inch from the place I'm living now.

 

I made no bones about it...from the moment he began contact again, he was going to have to prove that there were changes on his end...he's spent the last four years doing just that. If it's an act, he's pretty consistent in his routine, and hasn't faltered a bit. Either easy to do from far away, OR it's genuine changes.

 

It's becoming clear to me that what I'm feeling right now (and the reason I've posted this) is - like I wrote before - it's time for me to sh*t or get off the pot...four years of consistency on his part is enough for me to decide to either get all in, or get all the way out.

 

=====================

 

Thank you, everyone, who is responding...you really are helping me get calmer and more focused about where I'm at and what I need to do. While I haven't made a final decision yet, I am feeling better about moving towards it.

 

[mrldii]

That's good! If you two moved there and broke up, would you stay there?

 

Probably not. Even though I love it there, because I have such a small family - and only the one child - I'd most likely move [again] back here, even though I don't particularly like it here.

 

Here is not real conducive to having a grown-up, fulfilling single life and not just because we're consistently ranked in the Top 10 (often the #1) Unsafest Places to Live in the U.S.

[mrldii]

I don't mean some objective, normative up-down/high-low as in "low quality/high quality" guys, I mean settling for less than you actually want or hope for.

 

You're a grown woman and I'm sure you know yourself and what you want, but ....the way you're talking just sounds really uninspired to me.

 

HA! Probably so. But, at this point in my life, I'm OK with "uninspired".

 

Comfortable, familiar, steady-as-a-rock, reliable, and a constant is OK with me. Again, I actually enjoy those feelings, these days.

 

[This is quite an admission and turn-around for me, BTW...in all my previous years on this planet, I've always searched for the next heady, falling-head-over-heels-in-love experience.]

 

I don't know if it's that I've grown up...or that I've grown old. If it's the former, great...if it's the latter, uggggggh!!!

 

 

[mrldii]

I don't know. From what you say, you gave up a lot. Your career. You took any old job. You moved around for his career as he progressed. You helped raise his kids. After which he seemed ready to leave you behind when an opportunity overseas popped up. What were the positives of the ten years together for you? You don't mention any, but there had to be some pretty major ones since you're contemplating going back to him, now that he says marriage is on the table.

 

Also, people idealize situations and relationships with distance. Is he just interested in marriage because of the distance and space he was given? Three months after you move back in, will he still be as interested in getting married? Or will he escape back into his work and (emotional) unavailability again?

 

I'm just trying to get a better handle on your situation and provide some food for thought. I don't think there's an easy answer to your dilemma.

 

I did give up a lot...but, please don't [anyone] misunderstand - I did it gladly and willingly. Since we were going to be together 'forever', from a practical point of view, it made more sense that we focused on his career and ladder-climbing than on mine; his career and field of expertise pays much better and has built-in benefits and a huge retirement plan, compared to anything my industry offers.

 

Oh, and by the way...he has no kids; I have one, who was already grown when we met. Any reference I make to "kids" is the step-children I helped raise in a previous marriage.

 

Any marriage between us will happen before I move back in...which, of course, just means another huge leap of faith on my part (as well as his) that things will be different, due to the real changes in attitudes he's had. The marriage would occur after he's retired...i.e., when it's cut all ties with his "OW" (i.e., his career). I've given 'her' enough of our time and energy, whether he sees it that way or not.

[Marc878]

Life and years changes us all.

 

Love? What is it really?

 

In my youth it was heady stuff, heart pounding, etc. as you grow up for most it morphs into different things. A true mature love that only time lived can educate you on. It's long term not exciting day to day events that end.

 

Knowing what the others wants/needs are and getting joy out of providing them.

 

Sounds like he has defined what he wants his future to be and that's with you.

 

Now he wants marriage? WOW!!! You've really changed his perspective!!!

 

Men like him are rare but you must be something special to have changed him so.

 

I think some great things are coming to you both.

 

Exciting stuff!!!!!

[mrldii]

Life and years changes us all.

 

Love? What is it really?

 

In my youth it was heady stuff, heart pounding, etc. as you grow up for most it morphs into different things. A true mature love that only time lived can educate you on. It's long term not exciting day to day events that end.

 

Knowing what the others wants/needs are and getting joy out of providing them.

 

Sounds like he has defined what he wants his future to be and that's with you.

 

Now he wants marriage? WOW!!! You've really changed his perspective!!!

 

Men like him are rare but you must be something special to have changed him so.

 

I think some great things are coming to you both.

 

Exciting stuff!!!!!

 

HA!!! There ya go...it's all about one's point of view! Instead of seeing all of this as "confusing" and "uncertain", I'll change it to "exciting"!

 

Ahhhhh...I don't know that I'm anything so "special"...but, I will admit *we* [once] were. In retrospect, I just don't know how much of 'our specialness' was due to how much I bent to keep/make us special and how much was genuine and real specialness of us, together.

 

If it was due to my bending and blending, I'm just not sure how much of that I've got left in me - for him or anyone else. Again, it's not out of bitterness...it's more a feeling of being tapped out - *like* too many withdrawals from that account, without enough deposits to replenish the supply.

 

 

You are correct, though...if I'm going to do this, I've got to do it with an open heart and with no traces of "Well, you used to..."; I've got to focus on what did make us good and build on that and let the slate be wiped clean at a new starting point with all the other stuff.

 

Much easier written, than done...

[Marc878]

My perspective.

 

Sounds like a pretty successful guy. Made himself financially secure and could probably attract a lot of women. Unmarried in the twilight of his career and he wants to marry YOU!

 

Don't sell yourself short. You have to be something special. Why else would he have stayed in contact? Hmmmmm?

 

He's had a lot of time to think this through. I'd bet his reasons are pretty sound. Men like that don't make commitments any other way.

 

Like I said exciting, heady stuff. But you do have to be reasonably sure you want this and he can provide what you want out as well. It's your life too.

 

You'll know what to do.

[angel.eyes]

Any marriage between us will happen before I move back in...which, of course, just means another huge leap of faith on my part (as well as his) that things will be different, due to the real changes in attitudes he's had. The marriage would occur after he's retired...i.e., when it's cut all ties with his "OW" (i.e., his career). I've given 'her' enough of our time and energy, whether he sees it that way or not.

Thanks for the additional explanation. If I understand the timeline correctly then:

1. Ten years together and you ultimately left because he wasn't emotionally available and/or meeting some of your relationship needs.
   
2. Four years chatting, and occasionally visiting. He promised a year into this to marry you, but his work remains a priority and somewhat of an obstacle.
   
3. Five more years before he retires early (at age 60?) and marriage becomes an option.
   

Total: 19 years essentially on his terms, because he told you to take it or leave it when he considered moving to Malaysia...and since you've left, nothing will really change in how he structures his life or prioritizes until he retires.

 

Maybe I'm overly practical, but you will have spent almost two decades in limbo before he's actually in a place in his life where he could possibly meet your relationship needs. Is that really worth it? To spend some of your most productive years waiting on a guy whose priorities so far preclude what you really want? I asked earlier what the positives were of the 10-year relationship. You haven't said. If you're willing to share those, that would provide a more complete picture of the situation. So far, you've just detailed the trade-offs.

 

I'm all for delayed gratification where appropriate. But spending such a huge chunk of your best remaining years for a future promise? Not a great choice IMO. Dating as a 40- or 50-year old would be much easier than dating at 60+, should he not make good on his promises. Based on the details you've provided, so far, my advice would be to find a guy who is emotionally available today...someone who is able to fully participate in a relationship and meet your needs today.

 

Think about it, fourteen years in, and this guy still can't give you what you want in the relationship until some distant date in the future. Lots of highly successful men manage to have healthy relationships in which they clearly value their spouses (and families) despite very demanding jobs. This guy prioritizes in a way that works for him and his needs, not you.

[mrldii]

Thanks for the additional explanation. If I understand the timeline correctly then:

1. Ten years together and you ultimately left because he wasn't emotionally available and/or meeting some of your relationship needs.
   
2. Four years chatting, and occasionally visiting. He promised a year into this to marry you, but his work remains a priority and somewhat of an obstacle.
   
3. Five more years before he retires early (at age 60?) and marriage becomes an option.
   

Total: 19 years essentially on his terms, because he told you to take it or leave it when he considered moving to Malaysia...and since you've left, nothing will really change in how he structures his life or prioritizes until he retires.

 

Maybe I'm overly practical, but you will have spent almost two decades in limbo before he's actually in a place in his life where he could possibly meet your relationship needs. Is that really worth it? To spend some of your most productive years waiting on a guy whose priorities so far preclude what you really want? I asked earlier what the positives were of the 10-year relationship. You haven't said. If you're willing to share those, that would provide a more complete picture of the situation. So far, you've just detailed the trade-offs.

 

I'm all for delayed gratification where appropriate. But spending such a huge chunk of your best remaining years for a future promise? Not a great choice IMO. Dating as a 40- or 50-year old would be much easier than dating at 60+, should he not make good on his promises. Based on the details you've provided, so far, my advice would be to find a guy who is emotionally available today...someone who is able to fully participate in a relationship and meet your needs today.

 

Think about it, fourteen years in, and this guy still can't give you what you want in the relationship until some distant date in the future. Lots of highly successful men manage to have healthy relationships in which they clearly value their spouses (and families) despite very demanding jobs. This guy prioritizes in a way that works for him and his needs, not you.

 

 

Ahhh...you've hit a large part of the head of the nail, that's contributing to the dilemma.

 

Keep in mind, marriage is not that important to me; it's not anything I ever felt necessary with him...I knew we were going to be together forever. However, A reason he never wanted to marry anyone (in addition to the fact that he never wanted/doesn't want kids) is he didn't want to risk losing 1/2 of his money, retirement, etc., to a woman in the event of a divorce...regardless of any pre-nup protections.

 

When we began seriously discussing getting back together, that was one of the issues he raised...that for the first time in his life, he actually wanted to marry someone...me. We discussed it, and I agreed that marrying would be a great way to *prove* how much he's changed...as well as being an added incentive to stay *changed*.

 

I basically said, "Great! Let's do it! Let's get married and move on with our life together!" He basically said, "OK! Let's!" and then [basically] added that giving up his 'OW' now would mean leaving about $250K (in retirement benefits) on the table unnecessarily...but, hey!!! "I love you enough to do that!"

 

The practical and realistic side of me kicked in. Leaving that kind of money behind (after 25 years) simply to depart a few years early just to *prove* a point to me seemed silly and fool-hardy. I could easily see how anybody (him)could grow to resent someone (me) for *making* them 'give up' so much, so soon. His ideal solution was that I would marry him, return to where he is now (to the area I hate) and 'ride it out' 'til his retirement.

 

THAT wasn't going to happen...hence the living apart 'til he actually retires. This way, I get to spend a few more years near my family, continue working in my career in a job I'm loving (and adding to my retirement savings), and (frankly) relish this time of having no emotional demands placed upon me. Of course, each day that passes both he and I get more-and-more used to living alone, with no emotional demands placed upon either of us.

 

When we do finally get back together, will we both welcome the change and will we both be able to adjust to a life together, again? That's what I worry about...that, in this time, I've *learned* how to be as emotionally-unavailable in this relationship as he's *always* been, and that that will become our new normal.

 

====================

 

 

We have a lot of things to talk about, deeply, during his next visit (which is obviously coming soon...hence, why it's weighing so heavily on my mind).

 

 

Again, I really do appreciate the time each of you is taking to *talk* about this with me...it really is adding clarity. Talking about it with strangers is much more valuable than trying to discuss it with friends and family...they have a much more vested interest in the outcome, and their input often reflects their heavy bias.

[Marc878]

My conclusion.

 

I know this guy!

 

I'm him. Right down to the work. Been to Asia, etc. long hours big rewards.

 

The only difference is I married young and my wife has always been through it with me. Moved 7 times. She never fully understood it until now. We're set.

 

She's very practical even though I spoil the hell out of her. My biggest joy in life.

 

I'm a one woman man. Never gave anyone else a distant second thought. He is too or he'd never asked you to marry him. This was huge for him. You have to be a good catch!

 

DO IT!!!!

[angel.eyes]

I can see why you are where you are in this relationship and why you're struggling with the choices. You have a long history with him, even though you're not together now.

 

At first, I was going to go through each statement you raised and point out the fallacy in it and the contradictions in his arguments. But ultimately, I realized that you just want to go back to him. You're willing to bank on his promises and wait it out another five years...or until whenever should he continue to move the goalpost.

 

I do hope it works out for you. Best of luck!

[angel.eyes]

My conclusion.

 

I know this guy!

 

I'm him. Right down to the work. Been to Asia, etc. long hours big rewards.

 

The only difference is I married young and my wife has always been through it with me. Moved 7 times. She never fully understood it until now. We're set.

 

She's very practical even though I spoil the hell out of her. My biggest joy in life.

 

I'm a one woman man. Never gave anyone else a distant second thought. He is too or he'd never asked you to marry him. This was huge for him. You have to be a good catch!

 

DO IT!!!!

 

Differences include you married your wife and are still with her! You didn't pack her in her car and send her off at the ten-year mark. You didn't focus on whether she might "take" what was "yours" should things not work out as this guy did. You see yourself and your wife on the same team in a very fundamental way. That's what your actions say.

 

OP made many of the same sacrifices your wife did...moved around, took any odd job she could get in each new place he landed, etc. What happened when she started to push to progress the relationship at year eight on? He eventually told her he was going to live in Malaysia and she could leave if she wanted when arguments about the flaws in prenups, etc failed. Year 10: Helped her pack, and didn't bother contacting her for weeks! Did he ever move to Malaysia? No. But he had gotten rid of the pressure to progress things.

 

Words are cheap and worthless when they aren't matched by actions. So he said he wants to marry her. She said yes when he said that. His bluff got called, but who wants to look like the bad guy again? He started talking about the size of his pension, until she finally backed down, concerned about making him resent her. It's a dance that they will probably continue for another decade or two as long as he thinks he has other options.

 

So no, you are not the same guy. You're a decent, hard-working, man of integrity who is comfortable making promises and keeping them to the people in your personal life. This guy is in it for what he can get without giving up anything, at least in this particular relationship. Healthy relationships involve give-and-take. You recognize your wife's sacrifices and spoil her. This guy sent OP packing when she dared to ask to progress the relationship.

 

Sorry, OP. But he'll say just enough to string you along while he continues to live his life on his terms. That's how I see it. Hopefully in another five or ten years I'll be proven wrong. In the meanwhile, best of luck!

Edited August 30, 2015 by angel.eyes

[Marc878]

That was then

 

This is now.

 

She has lots of opinions which is what she was looking for.

[angel.eyes]

Now, of course, being a promise in five years. Again, words without action.

[Marc878]

I think you misread her posts. It seems he's ready to move now.

 

Character flaws such as laziness, dishonesty can never be changed.

 

I was probably the worst type A, short tempered, high strung, perfectionist SOB most have seen. Very far from a perfect husband. I learned and taught myself how to treat a woman. It took awhile believe me. I have no idea how my wife made it.

 

Early on I started on our future and made sure her primary goal of being able

To stay home with the kids were met. Which meant long hours and extra days.

 

I think most men are dumb about the daily things and women are much smarter. It's the little things on a daily basis that really makes a great marriage. Men have to work at it but women seem to know it instinctively.

 

But you learn and time changes you. Mainly because I had my one and only early on. We've had bad times like most but once I got smarter about things it's now great. My wife has always been way ahead of me here. He never had that early on but I'd bet he's learned that now like I have. But it can take years. Men are kinda slow in this area.

 

There are a lot of women out there but not many special ones like he's found.

 

That's what formed my opinion.

[mrldii]

...Words are cheap and worthless when they aren't matched by actions. So he said he wants to marry her. She said yes when he said that. His bluff got called, but who wants to look like the bad guy again? He started talking about the size of his pension, until she finally backed down, concerned about making him resent her. It's a dance that they will probably continue for another decade or two as long as he thinks he has other options...

 

Nope. Once he retires (by 55 - for him - in another 3 years), if we're still doing this dance, we'll be getting married and then moving to the state we both want to be in.

 

He's had the chance for other options, both before meeting me and after we broke up; he didn't like it...he [also] didn't like the idea of starting over...although I'd already gotten well on my way to doing it. I agree with Marc...I do believe he's changed and I do believe he's seen the light.

 

Keep in mind, we met when I was 40 (and he was 37), so there was no fast-tracking his progress and evolution with a family; there has been nothing to *make* him choose to be a more open, giving, and sharing person...other than losing the one person who (even according to him) understood him so well and so easily.

 

I probably more worry about me being able to pick up where we left off, and doing so without secret, hidden resentments...and the 5+ year "on a break" and the last 3-or-so-years of our relationship, when we were together.

 

=====================

 

Thanks, marc...you've given me hope and bolstered me for this upcoming deep talk.

[mrldii]

I think you misread her posts. It seems he's ready to move now.

 

Character flaws such as laziness, dishonesty can never be changed.

Agreed. He is not lazy, he is not dishonest, he is not unfaithful. He is, in most respects, a Great Guy.

 

I was probably the worst type A, short tempered, high strung, perfectionist SOB most have seen. Very far from a perfect husband. I learned and taught myself how to treat a woman. It took awhile believe me. I have no idea how my wife made it.

 

Early on I started on our future and made sure her primary goal of being able

To stay home with the kids were met. Which meant long hours and extra days.

 

I think most men are dumb about the daily things and women are much smarter. It's the little things on a daily basis that really makes a great marriage. Men have to work at it but women seem to know it instinctively.

 

He believes this about me, now more than ever...but he always did. That I was wiser and smarter about relationships and relating, so he *let* me be 'in charge' of that. Not just because I'm a woman and he's a man, but because he realized he'd focused on work and work relationships, and never saw the importance of a good personal relationship, and how that can make your professional life easier...and better.

 

But you learn and time changes you. Mainly because I had my one and only early on. We've had bad times like most but once I got smarter about things it's now great. My wife has always been way ahead of me here. He never had that early on but I'd bet he's learned that now like I have. But it can take years. Men are kinda slow in this area.

 

There are a lot of women out there but not many special ones like he's found.

 

That's what formed my opinion.

 

He swears that's what it is, now. That he's finally *matured* and as he reaches the end of his career - and sees how much he sacrificed for it - he doesn't want to spend the rest of his life without a relationship...and that he wants that relationship to be with me. He wants to *make up* to me all the *sacrifices* I made and will spend the rest of our time together fully supporting me and my work (until I decide I'm done), like I did for him and his.

 

He even jokes that he'll play house-husband to his high-powered executive wife, making sure the house is cleaned, laundry is done, and food (BBQd, of course) is on the table when I get home.

 

[Marc878]

He swears that's what it is, now. That he's finally *matured* and as he reaches the end of his career - and sees how much he sacrificed for it - he doesn't want to spend the rest of his life without a relationship...and that he wants that relationship to be with me. He wants to *make up* to me all the *sacrifices* I made and will spend the rest of our time together fully supporting me and my work (until I decide I'm done), like I did for him and his.

 

He even jokes that he'll play house-husband to his high-powered executive wife, making sure the house is cleaned, laundry is done, and food (BBQd, of course) is on the table when I get home.

 

 

Ok spill your guts! How'd it go??????