Is it time to do away with the concept of Infidelity/cheating?

July 31, 2015

central post 24#

Mostly for the same reasons anyone marries: love, financial benefits, companionship, having and raising children.

You don't have to be married to get any of those things ^^^ so why go through the hypocrisy of a ceremony and then do as you like? Makes no sense to me - far easier to be honest and not make false promises in the first place and save yourself some money at the same time.

Marriage is a special contract of permanent union between a man and a woman entered into in accordance with law for the establishment of conjugal and family life. It is the foundation of the family and an inviolable social institution whose nature, consequences, and incidents are governed by law.

IMO there is no such thing as an "open marriage" - just one that isn't working

July 31, 2015

GotIt post #19

I really don't understand why these people get married in the first place?

When people get married they make promises in front of friends and family ( and if it is in a church in front of God) they also sign a register which is a legally binding contract. Now, if they then want to go away and redefine the rules, that doesn't really say a great deal about their ability to keep a promise, does it?

In addition, there must be some people out there who have an awful lot of time on their hands. When I was married to my first husband I didn't have time to cheat (even if I wanted to) because I was too busy working f/t, keeping the house in order etc.
Now I am with my second husband I don't work f/t any more but I still don't have time to screw about!

Again, because who they were when they married, how they felt, does not stay the same. So someone at 20, who feels that they will ALWAYS be head over heels in love can't fathom what ends up them at 40 tolerating their spouse, bored in their life, and maybe feel unappreciated, unnoticed and nothing.

Most people marry, join things, etc. with the best intentions in mind. But time, life, and others erode things into actions that they look back on and shake their heads.

And, for many, marrying does not mean anything to do with religion. So there is no "God" in the equation.

You truly can't see how life underwhelms some in significant ways? Really? You can't see how people make mistakes?

July 31, 2015

central post 24#

You don't have to be married to get any of those things ^^^ so why go through the hypocrisy of a ceremony and then do as you like? Makes no sense to me - far easier to be honest and not make false promises in the first place and save yourself some money at the same time.

Marriage is a special contract of permanent union between a man and a woman entered into in accordance with law for the establishment of conjugal and family life. It is the foundation of the family and an inviolable social institution whose nature, consequences, and incidents are governed by law.

IMO there is no such thing as an "open marriage" - just one that isn't working

Okay, and there isn't really "any such thing" as divorce. A marriage is a marriage. And a permanent union.

July 31, 2015

Okay, and there isn't really "any such thing" as divorce. A marriage is a marriage. And a permanent union.

So I didn't really divorce my ex wife?

VOMIT

July 31, 2015

Got it - post #27

You highlight exactly the challenges of marriage.

How you grow and develop as a person, fulfill your career ambitions, raise a family, contribute something to society, have interests outside the home to bring new ideas into the marriage, ( that don't threaten it's stability) while at the same time allowing the other person to do the same.

It's a tall order.

I agree that what you want at 20 won't be what you want at 30, 40, 50. 60. If the other person can change and grow along with you, then all is well. If not, then professional help may be needed to rise to the challenges.

Okay, and there isn't really "any such thing" as divorce. A marriage is a marriage. And a permanent union.

This depends if you have a church marriage or a civil ceremony.

If you have a civil ceremony then it's a legal contract only and divorce is possible depending on the laws at the time.

If you have a church marriage then you are correct except for 2 exceptions.

1. If your spouse commits adultery then you can divorce them as they have violated the contract.

2. The marriage can be annulled.

The main reason for getting an annulment is that the sacrament of marriage wasn't valid. In other words, if one or both spouses didn’t intend to enter a permanent, faithful, and fruitful (if God wills it) union, then that deficiency renders the marriage invalid.

Even though a couple gets married in a Catholic church by a priest or deacon and has every intention of entering into a valid sacrament, other factors can greatly obstruct the validity anyway, even unknowingly and unintentionally. Who is at fault, if anyone, isn’t the issue. The matter at hand is whether a supposed valid marriage is in fact invalid for some serious reason. If a major impediment was present at the time of the wedding, then the sacrament of marriage is invalid, and the man and woman are free to marry someone else validly for the first time.

Aside from a bride or groom intentionally not wanting to enter a permanent, faithful, and fruitful union, another impediment would be if either person was incapable of assuming the duties and obligations of Christian marriage due to a severe addiction to drugs or alcohol or some serious psychological disorder, which was present but unknown to anyone at the time of the wedding.

Some other reasons for annulment of a marriage include mental incapacity, bigamy, incest, force or grave fear, and refusal or inability to consummate the marriage.

So the Catholic Church (and traditional Anglican Church) does not recognise divorce but allows annulment.

July 31, 2015

You don't have to be married to get any of those things ^^^ so why go through the hypocrisy of a ceremony and then do as you like? Makes no sense to me - far easier to be honest and not make false promises in the first place and save yourself some money at the same time.

Marriage is a special contract of permanent union between a man and a woman entered into in accordance with law for the establishment of conjugal and family life. It is the foundation of the family and an inviolable social institution whose nature, consequences, and incidents are governed by law.

IMO there is no such thing as an "open marriage" - just one that isn't working

What hypocrisy? I know we didn't make any ridiculous, idealized promises. People who do make such promises seldom keep them, it seems, so this social institution is routinely violated. On the other hand, we made vows that we know we can live with and honor.

BTW, the Supreme Court recently ruled that marriage isn't just between a man and a woman, but you may not have heard about that! And it so happens that my open marriage is working better than at least 99% of all marriages, although I'm sure you'd disagree just on principle.

July 31, 2015

central,

I am confused as to whether you are married or not.

What hypocrisy? I know we didn't make any ridiculous, idealized promises

.

OK, so what promises did you make?

People who do make such promises seldom keep them, it seems,

and your evidence is?

Now this is interesting.

In which states is cheating on your spouse illegal? | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

July 31, 2015

Well, your idea would definitely not work for me.

In my thinking, there should be a level of intimacy reserved for one's husband or wife.

This to me is the problem of open marriages. If you are free to share the same level of intimacy with any other person you want, and nothing is reserved for your spouse and spouse alone, then your spouse is no one special.

Someone might say, but your spouse is the only one you have a lifelong commitment to. But if a relationship is truly open, nothing can stop a person from making another life long commitment to another person.

The open marriage concept misses the wonderful feeling of, she has reserved herself for me and I for her.

"Specialness" and "uniqueness" can be a powerful bond between couples.

July 31, 2015

Yes, I'm married. Our only vow is to remain together for as long as we love each other. So far that's working out extraordinarily well.

My evidence that marriage vows are often not kept is very clear and decisive:

- the number of marriages that end in divorce (breaks the 'til death do you part vow)

- the number of marriages in which one or both partners cheat (a minimum of 20% - also breaking vows)

- the large number of sexless marriages (whether you consider having sex in marriage is a vow is open to debate, I suppose)

As the article you liked pointed out, these antiquated laws are seldom enforced and are probably unconstitutional.

July 31, 2015

central,

BTW, the Supreme Court recently ruled that marriage isn't just between a man and a woman, but you may not have heard about that!

I have heard about that but I'm not going to comment because I don't know the position of the Church in USA. I understand that in USA there is a separation of Church and State.

In UK they have legalised gay marriage but only for civil unions. Christian Churches don't have to conduct such ceremonies.

In UK the Head of State (HM the Queen) is also the head of the Church of England, which makes a constututional difference.

July 31, 2015

central, post 34#,

now this is interesting,

Our only vow is to remain together for as long as we love each other.

So each of you can have sex with, spend time with, spend money on, go away on holiday with, have kids with, any other person male or female as long as you still love each other?

July 31, 2015

So I didn't really divorce my ex wife?

VOMIT

Per Aries, her desire for a traditional divorce would not have acknowledged the divorce. A remarriage would be adultery.

We don't get to pick and choose what is traditional for a marriage and what isn't. The institution has evolved and will continue to do so. That doesn't mean it is bad. There have been some great changes and not great changes and that will continue as societies continue to adapt to their circumstances.

July 31, 2015

Got it - post #27

You highlight exactly the challenges of marriage.
How you grow and develop as a person, fulfill your career ambitions, raise a family, contribute something to society, have interests outside the home to bring new ideas into the marriage, ( that don't threaten it's stability) while at the same time allowing the other person to do the same.

It's a tall order.

I agree that what you want at 20 won't be what you want at 30, 40, 50. 60. If the other person can change and grow along with you, then all is well. If not, then professional help may be needed to rise to the challenges.

This depends if you have a church marriage or a civil ceremony.

If you have a civil ceremony then it's a legal contract only and divorce is possible depending on the laws at the time.

If you have a church marriage then you are correct except for 2 exceptions.

1. If your spouse commits adultery then you can divorce them as they have violated the contract.
2. The marriage can be annulled.
The main reason for getting an annulment is that the sacrament of marriage wasn't valid. In other words, if one or both spouses didn’t intend to enter a permanent, faithful, and fruitful (if God wills it) union, then that deficiency renders the marriage invalid.

Even though a couple gets married in a Catholic church by a priest or deacon and has every intention of entering into a valid sacrament, other factors can greatly obstruct the validity anyway, even unknowingly and unintentionally. Who is at fault, if anyone, isn’t the issue. The matter at hand is whether a supposed valid marriage is in fact invalid for some serious reason. If a major impediment was present at the time of the wedding, then the sacrament of marriage is invalid, and the man and woman are free to marry someone else validly for the first time.

Aside from a bride or groom intentionally not wanting to enter a permanent, faithful, and fruitful union, another impediment would be if either person was incapable of assuming the duties and obligations of Christian marriage due to a severe addiction to drugs or alcohol or some serious psychological disorder, which was present but unknown to anyone at the time of the wedding.

Some other reasons for annulment of a marriage include mental incapacity, bigamy, incest, force or grave fear, and refusal or inability to consummate the marriage.

So the Catholic Church (and traditional Anglican Church) does not recognise divorce but allows annulment.

Nowadays it does but that is not what the Church traditionally allowed. It did not allow women to divorce or to seek an annulment.

Again, you can't pick and choose traditional.

July 31, 2015

Per Aries, her desire for a traditional divorce would not have acknowledged the divorce. A remarriage would be adultery.

We don't get to pick and choose what is traditional for a marriage and what isn't. The institution has evolved and will continue to do so. That doesn't mean it is bad. There have been some great changes and not great changes and that will continue as societies continue to adapt to their circumstances.

My comment was made as a joke, not as a criticism to Aries. If I found out I was still legally married to my ex wife, I would literally vomit. Blow chunks. Toss my cookies. Engage in an involuntary personal protein spill.

Y'all get the idea.

August 1, 2015

central 34#

My evidence that marriage vows are often not kept is very clear and decisive:
- the number of marriages that end in divorce (breaks the 'til death do you part vow)
- the number of marriages in which one or both partners cheat (a minimum of 20% - also breaking vows)
- the large number of sexless marriages (whether you consider having sex in marriage is a vow is open to debate, I suppose)

OK,

Infidelity is among the top reasons marriages fail, so open marriages take a stab at changing the meaning of cheating, and preventing infidelity from ruining a union. Open marriages allow spouses the freedom to explore relationships outside of their own marriage if they desire to do so. Couples claim, these arrangements can provide couples with the honesty and freedom they have always wanted, but when spouses fail to address key issues the same problems that traditional couples have will surface.

Despite how enlightened and understanding spouses can be about their open marriage, jealousy can rear its ugly head at any given moment. Making time for kids, career, spouse, exercise and entertainment is hard enough without other partners. Not only is it difficult to juggle multiple relationships, feelings of envy and jealousy can arise when the primary partner is getting the short end of the stick when it comes to quality time spent together.

When a partner who isn’t your spouse develops feelings of love, and builds an intense and passionate connection, they may want to become a primary partner. Even when rules are put in place that should prevent partners from reaching that point, humans aren’t always able to put a leash on their emotions.They also have problems setting limits when they want something badly enough.

Monogamous marriages create a promise of security. “For better or for worse, till death do us part.” Options of dating are removed and spouses can look forward to a life together in which they are exclusively intimate with each other. When various alternatives are thrown into the mix, partners can become competitive, leading that sense of security to be challenged and maybe even removed completely.

But no doubt you'll have thought all this out? ^^^

Removing traditional marriage vows is a bit like removing speed limits and DUI (drunk driving) laws, because "x% of people break them so they are obsolete". Removing them wouldn't reduce injuries and fatalities.

Personally, I believe that getting married traditionally is too easy and there should be more pre-marriage counselling before the couple "tie the knot".

August 2, 2015

I have yet to see open relationships that work. Very few "work" because of human emotions, like jealousy. And simply EMOTIONS, falling for other persons. But some do i guess? (idk any)

It's just that people can't hold it in their pants these days. They want to DO that person, they go cheat, say it is okay. But when done to THEM, they lose their minds.

Hypocrites.

I am into monogamy. Make a kid, raise him, take care of my familly. From a familly point of view, this is undoable.

If you just want to ****, wich this generation is all about it seems. Go open relationship then .

I don't need marriage tho, i just pick that one person i wanna share my life with and do it.

This is just horny people trying to justify their sex crave, my honest opinion. Make a workaround, that like never works.

I'd like to see old people doing this, hahaha.

August 2, 2015

Hey why don't we do away with the concept of theft... Then you know if you want something you can't afford you can steal it, and you may or may not tell the person you steal it from, but they won't ble mad and you won't get in trouble because it's not "theft"!

Or how about murder! ...then when someone annoys you you can go kill them but.. Obviously not a great day for them but everyone will be ok with it cause y'know there's no such thing as "murder"!

August 2, 2015

Murder is still illegal, yet people still commit murder. Should we just throw out the idea of murder as well? Just because some people cannot hold to an ideal, does not diminish that ideal.

Or how about murder! ...then when someone annoys you you can go kill them but.. Obviously not a great day for them but everyone will be ok with it cause y'know there's no such thing as "murder"!

August 2, 2015

central, post 34#,
now this is interesting,

So each of you can have sex with, spend time with, spend money on, go away on holiday with, have kids with, any other person male or female as long as you still love each other?

LOL Not quite. We have limits and boundaries, mainly that the vast majority of our time, attention, and affection are for each other. Anyone else is a distant second. That's just the way we want it, because we like each other far more than anyone else. We decide together what's reasonable, and discuss what boundaries we may want to set for any person or situation.

So while we certainly wouldn't have kids with anyone else (we're beyond that anyway), and wouldn't go away for more than a weekend, we can each have sex with, spend time with, spend money on, go away on holiday with someone else, etc.

August 2, 2015

Central post 45~

We have limits and boundaries, mainly that the vast majority of our time, attention, and affection are for each other. Anyone else is a distant second. That's just the way we want it, because we like each other far more than anyone else. We decide together what's reasonable, and discuss what boundaries we may want to set for any person or situation.

OK, that's fine in theory.

But do you let the other person(s) know what the rules are? And do they know that they are being discussed like objects?

And are there rules about how much money you spend on an OP? Can hubby only buy a gold necklace for x if you give some platinum cufflinks to y ?

Do you not think that you are playing with others and using them for your own gratification? I just wonder how many people you would find that wanted to be just a f**k-buddy for either of you.

These pages are full of women posting about how they fell in love with married man and felt they were lead on. I wonder if you would take any responsibility for that scenario.?

Just curious?

Edited August 2, 2015 by Arieswoman

August 5, 2015

Hi Jen1447, Thanks for raising a relevant question. I have been thinking about what you said and I have the following to offer.

I think before we talk of doing away with infidelity /cheating we would have to do away with the concept of exclusivity in relationships. I think that this would be the tough nut to crack. Even so called Hotwives, while practicing promiscuous sex themselves lay down a condition that their husbands have to remain monogamous, unreasonable as it may seem. They are also liable to suffer from rather strong pangs of jealousy if their husbands even broach the subject of sleeping with another partner. For those who are yet to get used to the idea of open marriages even if they are open to it, this will be the obstacle to cross, the so called Elephant in the room.

If the exclusivity idea is successfully done away with then doing away with the concept of infidelity or cheating will be much easier. Why I am emphasizing doing away with these concepts is because they are so ingrained in our psyches' that it will take quite an effort to dislodge them from the collective consciousness of any group of like minded people who may be open to this idea. In fact jealousy is another bug bear to having smooth open marriages. Jealousy is such a primal instinct that it may never be possible to remove it completely from the human psychological make up. One may learn to calm it down to an extent but it will always be present in the background. This, I think, is what was at the back of my mind when I was suggesting doing away with the concept of cheating/ infidelity. As luck would have it, the discussion on this topic, although very interesting, meandered away from the basic idea that I had put out. Some like you had stuck to the knitting and asked relevant questions but others got carried away in different directions. I hope I have been able to clear some doubts about the idea. In any case I really do not know why I am even suggesting something like this as, personally, I am opposed to it completely except that maybe I am playing the Devil's Advocate here. I guess such discussions help to clear peoples' minds as it makes them think rather than just accept something at face value. Often people have very muddled thoughts about things because they have not really taken the time to grasp the essence of something.

Anyway, I would like to thank all those who participated in this discussion as it has helped us all. Warm wishes to all.

August 5, 2015

Thanks for the elaboration, but I guess I still don't know what you mean by "doing away with," and that definition's vital to understanding your premise since it hinges on the doing away with.

It's sort of like saying "would it be better if we did away with murder?" Sure it would, but how do you "do away with" murder? Redefine it so that killing someone unjustifiably is no longer called murder? That would be meaningless. And people are going to keep murdering each other no matter what we do or what we call it.

See what I'm getting at? Cheating and infidelity aren't going away, so no one will benefit from their non-existence in the real world, and just calling it something else or saying that it's not bad would be meaningless.

This almost sounds like an ivory tower discussion tbh. (No offense.)

August 5, 2015

But do you let the other person(s) know what the rules are? Just curious?

Yes. We treat any partners ethically and compassionately. That means clarity about any boundaries we and they wish to observe.

And do they know that they are being discussed like objects?

Yes. That's basically the nature of this. Mostly swinging scenarios which are primarily about sexual enjoyment and variety. Everyone knows exactly what it's about. Not that we treat anyone as merely an object. And they are not even remotely objectified if we are looking at a polyamorous possibility.

And are there rules about how much money you spend on an OP? Can hubby only buy a gold necklace for x if you give some platinum cufflinks to y ?

No rules, just common sense. If we want to spend more than the cost of a dinner or similar, we'll discuss it ahead of time.

Do you not think that you are playing with others and using them for your own gratification? I just wonder how many people you would find that wanted to be just a f**k-buddy for either of you.

Apparently, lots! And don't forget, it works both ways. We're their playthings just as much as they are ours. However, it is often a true friend with benefits situation, though some start simply as casual sex.

These pages are full of women posting about how they fell in love with married
man and felt they were lead on. I wonder if you would take any responsibility
for that scenario.?

We are clear up-front, and are very careful to not lead anyone on. There is

no plausible scenario in which we'd ever consider leaving each other, and we make that clear. If someone started falling in love we might consider a polyamorous scenario with them if they fully understand what that means and are capable of handling it. If we notice that someone is deviating from the agreement, we'll discuss it with them. If necessary, we will end it so we don't lead someone on. We are completely honest with any new partners, and expect the same in return - and make that known. If someone is dishonest with themselves, they'll probably be dishonest with us - we'll notice and end things. The fundamental basis of ethical non-monogamous relationships, after all, is honesty and free, informed choice. (BTW, any of my partners who are more than short-term casual encounters will usually meet my wife, and all know she exists and is willing to meet them.)

Not everyone practices ethical non-monogamy (heck, many people don't practice ethical monogamy!), but those who do tend to take the ethics very seriously.

Edited August 5, 2015 by central

August 6, 2015

Hi Central, Great! But just look out for the fork in the road. You and some unsuspecting partner might just be blindsided by by emotions overtaking your ethical resolutions and you may end up falling madly in love. It has happened with folks and unfortunately human resolutions are not cast in steel!

August 6, 2015

Hi Jen1447, Again many thanks for raising a pertinent query. All I can say is that cheating/ infidelity are not in the same class as murder. Murder is irreversible and involves a physical act, whereas cheating is an emotional one. The physical aspect of cheating does not cause an irreversible injury to some one else including one's SO. The fact is that if people were to internalize a state of being where there was no concept of cheating, there would be no hurt feelings or pain. I guess you will have to read this along with what I have written before. However if you still do not agree it is all right. I am not out to propagate something new and radical which I myself do not subscribe to. Cheers!

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