Forgive or Not? [Updated]

[anika99]

Hope, I'm going to say a couple of things that everyone here feels and is using different words to say ..

 

No matter what you think or say , since you are still in contact with xMM , you are very close to rekindling the relationship . IMHO, you are already back in an emotional A with him . I know it doesn't feel that way but why is it that you cannot completely go NC and let yourself heal completely ?

 

You cannot dismiss the other recent event as 'another mistake'. You are a very highly educated and smart woman . Please learn from your experiences .

 

You cannot have a healthy fulfilling relationship till you feel healthy and happy . Forgive / don't forgive ? That is your call . Do what you need to do to move forward . This was your experience , your child you lost . We are here for support and all anyone here can tell you is that keeping contact with xMM is shooting yourself in the foot .. Yet again ..

Best.

 

 

This ^

 

 

It sounds to me like you are emotionally bonding with him again, this time over the death of your child.

 

 

It's seems rather obvious to me that you are not done with him and that you will most likely become involved with him again. Hell you are already involved with him. He's divorced now isn't he? So you can be with him now if you want and I think deep down that is what you want.

 

 

As for the forgiveness aspect, I agree with everyone saying that forgiveness is for yourself, not for him. I also agree that forgiveness naturally comes with time and healing. It's not a conscious decision, it's just something that happens on it's own. You cannot forgive him just because he's asking for forgiveness.

Edited July 20, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[beach]

Thank you all so much. I can't reply to all but I have read and re-read your posts. I appreciate them more than I can say.

 

I am not going back to him - part of me just thought he deserved the answers. Yet they were hard. He asked all of the details (when she died, what I did right after and what I was doing right before, what happened after, etc). I never thought he would ask those questions. She only lived 20 minutes but he has asked about every minute and then what I did after that. Uggh. It's hard.

 

I know I can't hold him accountable for not being there physically, but he wasn't there in any sense, by phone or email or any other way I contacted him then.

 

Hope, yes, you can hold him accountable - and you should.

 

He showed you with his inaction that he's not there for you... Especially when it was really tough on you!

 

And now he's making you relive this?

 

He's got some sick manipulative tactics! Is he still paying you the money he owes you?

 

He knows his life COULD have been easier with you... And he's using that to weasel his way into your head by bring up really hurtful memories.

 

It may be his way of trying to reconnect with you emotionally (this is what he knows how to do) but, it's REALLY cruel of him!

 

Can you just block him completely? If he needs to contact you tell him to contact your attorney!

 

No, you don't have to forgive. It would be more useful for you to forget. You owe him nothing!

 

 

Has he still been paying you?

[autumnnight]

Men like this are not loyal to people, they are loyal to their need of them. When their needs shift, so does their loyalty. He's in a place right now, just out of a failed marriage and needing a soft place to land, even it is in his own head, redefined as a man who is retroactively "doing the right thing". Don't agonize too much on this one Hope.

 

Yep, and some of them actually masquerade as victims.

[Southern Sun]

First, I am not defending him AT ALL.

 

I just want to point out that perhaps he is fighting his own demons here. Maybe he's not blithely asking her questions and making her relive this in order to hurt her. She is the ONLY person who can answer these questions. They are the only two people who had this child. It's possible that this has eaten away at him over the years and now he has enough guts to ask. He is asking such specific things, it's as if he is trying to imagine being there. I could be wrong. I've been taken for a ride before. But maybe, it's possible, his motive is purely to get closure himself.

[RoseVille]

First, I am not defending him AT ALL.

 

I just want to point out that perhaps he is fighting his own demons here. Maybe he's not blithely asking her questions and making her relive this in order to hurt her. She is the ONLY person who can answer these questions. They are the only two people who had this child. It's possible that this has eaten away at him over the years and now he has enough guts to ask. He is asking such specific things, it's as if he is trying to imagine being there. I could be wrong. I've been taken for a ride before. But maybe, it's possible, his motive is purely to get closure himself.

 

Glad you said this; I was thinking the same thing.

[Red123]

I agree with the other posters who stated that forgiveness is for you, so if that's what you want then proceed. However, I think you may be more vulnerable to this man because of your most recent relationship and being hurt again in a similar way. You know yourself best but if you read your past threads on this man I think you may rethink having contact with him.

[anika99]

First, I am not defending him AT ALL.

 

I just want to point out that perhaps he is fighting his own demons here. Maybe he's not blithely asking her questions and making her relive this in order to hurt her. She is the ONLY person who can answer these questions. They are the only two people who had this child. It's possible that this has eaten away at him over the years and now he has enough guts to ask. He is asking such specific things, it's as if he is trying to imagine being there. I could be wrong. I've been taken for a ride before. But maybe, it's possible, his motive is purely to get closure himself.

 

 

So? If your theory is correct then he is still only thinking of himself and his closure. Still being insensitive and acting selfishly.

[lookingforclosure]

First, I am not defending him AT ALL.

 

I just want to point out that perhaps he is fighting his own demons here. Maybe he's not blithely asking her questions and making her relive this in order to hurt her. She is the ONLY person who can answer these questions. They are the only two people who had this child. It's possible that this has eaten away at him over the years and now he has enough guts to ask. He is asking such specific things, it's as if he is trying to imagine being there. I could be wrong. I've been taken for a ride before. But maybe, it's possible, his motive is purely to get closure himself.

 

I was thinking the same Sounthern

[Southern Sun]

So? If your theory is correct then he is still only thinking of himself and his closure. Still being insensitive and acting selfishly.

 

Maybe after an 8 year relationship, he feels close enough to HS to be able to have these types of conversations. Yes, it is late. He should have done it differently. But here they are. Things that are done cannot be undone. I would imagine he's not throwing these things out to her in a vacuum. She is allowing him to speak with her, after all. Unless she is giving him entirely opposite signals and he is completely dense. But that's not what I'm reading.

 

Is it right for him to just hold it all in? Is that what HS would prefer?

[LivingWaterPlease]

I'd forgive.

[txgrl]

I thought about it . I think I would forgive too and would probably start a relationship with him too .

 

Such are the matters of the heart ...

 

Good luck hope .

[CarrieT]

Hope, like others I am concerned that you have opened the doors back to him...

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Maybe after an 8 year relationship, he feels close enough to HS to be able to have these types of conversations. Yes, it is late. He should have done it differently. But here they are. Things that are done cannot be undone. I would imagine he's not throwing these things out to her in a vacuum. She is allowing him to speak with her, after all. Unless she is giving him entirely opposite signals and he is completely dense. But that's not what I'm reading.

 

Is it right for him to just hold it all in? Is that what HS would prefer?

 

He's getting her emotions all jacked up so he can worm his way back in, if he cared, he'd have been there in some form to support her. He knows good and well what he's doing. People don't change their character.

[Morbius]

Regarding the recent relationship:

 

 

It was less than nothing compared to the prior one. People have posted that OP is “vulnerable” because of this recent relationship. Quite the contrary, the word “p*ssed” is the appropriate term. The person referred to as stated meant little to the OP, and any emotions came after the OP broke it off. Repeat, the OP broke it off. These emotions were predominately anger at being manipulated, used, and at the continuous harassment of the OP after OP told the individual it-was-over. Suffice to say, OP is regretful becoming involved, but in defense OP was smooth talked into this, and a difficult lesson was learned.

 

 

For the record again, OP is not vulnerable, but p*ssed.

 

 

The long term relationship:

 

 

The xMM contacted OP as written and finally asked about that time. OP graciously responded and answered all questions. xMM asked about forgiveness, at this time OP is still thinking about this.

 

 

During the Q & A, OP had no feeling for the xMM, and after the conversation ended, was able to let go some if not all of the hate for what was done those many years ago.

 

 

The romantic relationship between OP, and xMM has sailed, and the relationship is over. This is a fact.

Edited July 20, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[Grapesofwrath]

"Forgiveness doesn't mean forget what happened. If something is serious and it is necessary to take counter-measures, you have to take counter-measures." -- Dalai Lama

 

Forgive him for you. So you can lay that burden down. Forgiving him doesn't mean forgetting your daughter or her brief and precious life. What he did is serious, and as a result you must take counter-measures. To protect yourself.

[Josmatjes]

I know I said forgiving is healthy and it is, but the more I think about your situation I'm left wondering why you even speak to him? I mean he already knows you don't think anything of yourself because after what you went through you still take his calls. I truly do not think I would ever speak to this disgusting man ever again. Think of what you lost! Tell him to **** off!!

[LoveMachine67]

I know I said forgiving is healthy and it is, but the more I think about your situation I'm left wondering why you even speak to him? I mean he already knows you don't think anything of yourself because after what you went through you still take his calls. I truly do not think I would ever speak to this disgusting man ever again. Think of what you lost! Tell him to **** off!!

 

^^^ This ^^^

[Tullyseptember]

I really feel the reference of another situation that pops up randomly in threads is not necessary and should be dealt with behind "closed" doors. I don't think at all that the mm will be let back in because of that situation. If he is let back in it will be because Hope wants to let him back in just as if Hope does not want him as she stated he won't be back in at all. Growth is acknowledging our parts in past experiences and then moving forward in our new knowledge of living a healthy life. If we continue to think that another person has the power to "make" us do anything than we are missing an important fact that nobody can make us do anything unless we give that person the power to hurt us or manipulate us. Of course I realize there are situations of abuse that tear down a persons self esteem, safety and mental well being that would have a person vulnerable to more hurt. I do not think this is the case here though:(

[MissBee]

I have thought about this - and thought about this - to the point of almost getting migraines this week, so I hope some others can offer input. Hopefully I still have enough friends here for that....

 

Ex-MM has called me several times this week to talk about our daughter. For background, we were in an 8+ year A (long-distance), he was separated at first, then went back to wife, now is divorced from her. VERY long story short. But at the end I had his daughter, born at 22 weeks and she died due to placenta previa and prematurity within 20 minutes of birth. He refused to talk about it.

 

He has only wanted to talk about our daughter this week. Two phone calls where he asked only details about that day (really hard for me). He asked for photos, which I sent. Crying, etc, because he wasn't there.

 

The end of the second phone call, he said, "Can you ever forgive me for not being there for you?" I didn't answer, and haven't answered.

 

My question is, can anyone forgive that? Realistically, he was over 1000 miles away, so he could never have been there in time. Not logistically. But he was not there in phone calls either, and that's what I'm struggling with. Is it forgivable? Can people forego this kind of thing and still forgive overall?

 

What does forgiveness mean to you?

 

That's the important thing IMO.

 

Does forgiving do something for you? Or is it for him?

 

Does forgiving mean you now are friends with him or worse, lovers?

 

What exactly does forgiveness look like when you're asking about it?

 

Only you can decide. But for me, if it will help you and be some kind of catharsis for YOU to forgive, then fine. But I wouldn't make forgiving mean that he now gets a place in your life. I would maybe try to make it about the baby and honoring her memory and detaching it from him as a person.

 

But at this point, him crying and feeling all bad and whatever is a little too late, and doesn't change anything and I don't think there is ANY reason for you to give him space in your life. Forgiving him for me would only be about letting go of negativity in order to move on with YOUR life and honor your daughter but it wouldn't include renewing a friendship or any kind of relationship with him. Unfortunately, some things can never be undone and sometimes some people are better off out of our lives. It doesn't mean we hate them or haven't forgiven, but forgiveness doesn't necessarily mean reconciliation for me and I can let go of negative feelings without now wanting to become friends with you. Likewise....you can say it's unforgivable and that's perfectly fine too. It's totally up to you and what promotes your well-being.

Edited July 9, 2015 by MissBee

[minimariah]

Quite the contrary, the word “p*ssed” is the appropriate term.

 

vulnerable & pissed off aren't mutually exclusive & aren't in contradiction.

 

the appropriate term is HURT... where there is anger, there is always pain underneath.

Edited July 20, 2015 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[minimariah]

I really feel the reference of another situation that pops up randomly in threads is not necessary and should be dealt with behind "closed" doors.

 

i wholeheartedly agree.

[jwi71]

Thanks so much everyone.

 

I go back and forth regarding if forgiveness is for me vs him, to be honest.

 

Its for YOU. Promise.

 

But when he has spent so much time talking about our daughter, and just asking about the details, it makes me wonder.

 

Do not let his actions, or lack there of, blind you to the fact that he TOO lost a daughter. You better believe it haunts him. He is, as others said, fighting his own demons here.

 

I hope you choose the mpossible path and begin to work on forgiveness. And yes, its a CHOICE. Every actions, word, thought, emotion is CHOICE. We CHOOSE how we act. We CHOOSE what we say. We CHOOSE our thoughts. We CHOOSE our emotions.

 

We choose who we are.

[Hope Shimmers]

Thank you to everyone who posted. It has given me a lot to think about this week. It was a busy week with traveling for work, and my mind was on all of this.

 

First, I am way LESS vulnerable now than I was earlier this year. I learned some hard lessons about believing and trusting too easily, and ignoring my gut instinct when it was screaming in my ear, and while red flags were flying in every direction. I chose to ignore all of that, which was a huge mistake, and I learned from it. So I am taking that lesson forward and applying it to future potential relationships.

 

I will probably get flogged for this, but I talked to ex-MM this week (we FaceTimed for about 2 hours). Before that conversation I had not let him discuss personal things (other than our daughter). But this conversation was different. I could title the subject matter as, “Where did things go wrong?” and “Why did things happen?” I learned some things about our relationship that he would not talk about before, ever. It’s funny; you can even get some closure 8 years after the fact.

 

It has been screwing with my head that my previous (relative) objectivity and apathy concerning him are now somewhat gone.

 

The chemistry between us is still off the charts. It’s just instantaneously there. It’s not like I’m inexperienced with relationships – I’ve had several long-term serious relationships over the years, including a 16-year marriage. Never, ever have I found the depth of emotion (I’ll avoid the word “love”) and how I feel about someone to be so unbelievably intense. I wish I could adequately describe it. That is why I was so devastated when it ended in disaster all those years ago. And this was several years in – way past the ‘limerence’ stage and well into the ‘long-term relationship’ stage. I know he felt the same.

 

Now, he seems like the intelligent, articulate man that I was with for those years, before the huge mess started. He seems like he has done (and is continuing to do) a lot of thinking and growing. Of note, he hasn’t made any excuses for not being there for me or our daughter. He took that blame and shame (as he should). If he had made excuses, I would have been repulsed.

 

And now, he’s not pushing me in any way, and is concerned with how I feel. And he says too that he needs to get himself to the point where he is standing on his own two feet and is stable. It took him awhile, but he finally grew the balls to do what he needed to do (for his MARRIAGE – not for me). That is something.

 

Thinking back – and after reading/learning about many other examples of affairs – back then, he never lied about his feelings for me. Not at the beginning, the middle, or the end. He didn’t lie about that to his wife either. He never minimized what we had or made up lies to make himself look better to his wife or to other people.

 

He never lied about not loving her to me, either – it was always just that he could not stay in the marriage. When it all blew up he was honest to her and to me. Although he was less honest during the interim (affair) period when he was trying to keep both of us. And, there was so much conflict about our relationship – but was it due to circumstances? That’s what he said he believes. I honestly don’t know.

 

So now, I’m wondering how much it matters if he is remorseful and wants a second chance. Is it any different than if he and I had been married and he had cheated on me? Infidelity betrayal – some here would say it’s betrayal of the worst kind. But this betrayal is different - he betrayed our daughter, and to a lesser extent, me – when he wasn’t there when she was born and died. If infidelity betrayal is (sometimes) forgivable, is this kind of betrayal forgivable too? How much does that define his character forever and ever, and does that mean he can NEVER be a good relationship partner? Or a good person, even?

 

Please don’t blast me for being honest here, because I realize the timing is wrong and he NEEDS to have more time on his own – the ink on his divorce papers is barely dry. The dissolving of his marriage and moving on HAS to be separate from anything to do with me. So I have told him that we need to stop talking for awhile, and I have refused to see him. But if I’m being honest, the thought of him being single and dating eats at me.

[anna121]

Oh dear.

 

You are hooked and he is reeling you in, I'm afraid.

 

When I read your latest post, it is almost 100% justification, this time about he never "lied" to you. I ask, respectfully, why that matters so much? Honesty is important, but so is moral courage and basic kindness and compassion.

 

"He's not pushing me and is concerned with how I feel".

 

I'm sorry - it REALLY doesn't look like it from this vantage point.

 

How much does it matter that he is "remorseful and wants a second chance"?

 

Well, it seems to matter a lot to YOU.

 

How much does that mean that he has changed the fundamental failings of character that led him to make such poor choices?

 

Probably not even a hill of beans.

 

(I hope this doesn't come across as flogging.)

[minimariah]

I will probably get flogged for this...

 

i don't think you will -- most of us could have see this coming. not much to say, really... you'll do what you feel is right, at the end of the day. be careful, guard your heart... you already know.

 

good luck.