madjac74 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Thanks, you made it already abundantly clear that you don't care for the concept of the burden of proof. It isn't something that is provable unless you are dead. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
todreaminblue Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 It isn't something that is provable unless you are dead. my grandpa came to me in a dream the night he died...said for me not to worry and that he would see me soon...when he died he had no hair and was skeletal.....he had a tumor in his brain......when i saw him in the dream he was much younger had a full head of lustrous black hair...... when i awoke my parents had been crying and they said we have to tell you something i told them i already know......grandpa died..but its ok he is happy now.....and he told me not to worry........true story.....its the only time i have not cried at someone passing...because i talked to him in my dream......i got that chance too....my mum also had a dream about her mother......she had actually died..she didtn get to speak to her but my nanna was sittign at thsi logn table surrounded by people...adn lookign at my mother no words were spoken.....my mother was travelling and she missed the funeral service....she felt unsettled by the dream.she returned home to find her mother had passed and that she had missed the funeral........deb 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mandymor Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I think believing in an afterlife makes all of what we're doing now mean something. Some people need that or else they might do something rash. And really, does it matter if there is or isn't? Don't you want to be the best person you can possibly be in this life just in case? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Z Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Matter IS created AND destroyed. Matter is a physical material, and as such is subject to transitory existence, as are any other compounded phenomena. Energy, is not 'matter'. It could be but isn't necessarily: E = MC^2 All matter is energy but not all energy is matter. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Robert Z Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I think believing in an afterlife makes all of what we're doing now mean something. Some people need that or else they might do something rash. And really, does it matter if there is or isn't? Don't you want to be the best person you can possibly be in this life just in case? That is known as Pascal's Challenge - it makes sense to bet on a God because being wrong in the alternative comes with far too big of a price. But then, so does wasting the only life you have based on fantasies. And what does it mean to be a good person? Do I have to go to Church on Sundays, or does it have to be Saturday? Do I have to tithe? Do I go to hell for having sex out of wedlock? Do I go to hell for masturbation? Do I go to hell if I'm not a Catholic? According to them I do. So where do you turn to cover your bases, just in case? Should I go by the Baptists or the Catholics or the Seventh Day Adventists or the Hare Krishnas? Anything but a do-it-yourself faith comes with a far bigger price than you suggest. And no religion recognizes a do-it-yourself, believe-what-you-want religion. as valid. Link to post Share on other sites
todreaminblue Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) It could be but isn't necessarily: E = MC^2 All matter is energy but not all energy is matter. and does matter really matter only to those who think it matters ...deb Edited June 3, 2015 by todreaminblue Link to post Share on other sites
Arieswoman Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) More info on the Christian perspective ;- Do You Believe in Ghosts? The Christian View of the ParanormalParchment and Pen Blog Trimmer, I never said I had all the answers - I am not a Theologian! My only (secondhand) experience of this is from my great auntie. She was a spinster who never married but had a close friendship with a gentleman who was married ( how "close" the friendship was we don't know but it continued for many years) On the day he died she saw him walking up her front path, which was a surprise to her, as he was supposed to be in bed very ill. She got up to open the front door and when she opened the door he was gone. She went around the back of the house to look for him and saw nothing. She found out later that the time that she saw him was the time he died at home. She felt very comforted that he had decided to pay her a (brief) visit. Christians are taught that the dead cannot communicate with the living and that the living should not try and communicate with the dead. We are told that any apparitions/ghosts of dead people is in fact demonic activity. If this is correct then I do not understand why demons (who are inherently evil and whose raison d'etre is to torment the living and encourage them to sin) should appear in the guise of a deceased loved one to give comfort? It seems to me that there is no tangible proof of an afterlife, and what people want to believe is their personal choice. Edited June 3, 2015 by Arieswoman 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) Christians are taught that the dead cannot communicate with the living and that the living should not try and communicate with the dead. We are told that any apparitions/ghosts of dead people is in fact demonic activity. If this is correct then I do not understand why demons (who are inherently evil and whose raison d'etre is to torment the living and encourage them to sin) should appear in the guise of a deceased loved one to give comfort? For the same reason Mata Hari succeeded. Because it was a more tempting, seductive comforting thing. Demons are not all scarlet, vicious, evil and demonic. laying an obvious trap is too transparent and predictable. Laying a honey-trap is far more effective and subtle. It diverts the attention wonderfully and lulls you into a false sense of security. Think of the Child Catcher in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. Hiow he ensnares children. Classic example. Not that I believe any of that 'ghost' stuff. I'm just stating the obvious. Edited June 3, 2015 by TaraMaiden2 Link to post Share on other sites
Arieswoman Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Taramaiden, I don't follow your post. Laying a honey-trap is far more effective and subtle. It diverts the attention wonderfully and lulls you into a false sense of security. OK, so how did that work with my great auntie? She felt comforted and moved on with her life. Surely that was a good thing? Not that I believe any of that 'ghost' stuff. That's your perogative. So do you think that all the people that see ghosts are hallucinating or have some other mental-health problem? What about those ghosts caught on camera? I'm just stating the obvious. It may be obvious to you but it's illogical to me. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Taramaiden, I don't follow your post.ok... OK, so how did that work with my great auntie? She felt comforted and moved on with her life. Surely that was a good thing? I wasn't necessarily referring to your aunt. I was outlining the methods and motives of demons. How your aunt coped may mean that her faith in god was stronger than these demons could penetrate... I dunno... That's your perogative. Yes, I know. So do you think that all the people that see ghosts are hallucinating or have some other mental-health problem? I'm not qualified to say, and wouldn't venture an opinion. What about those ghosts caught on camera? What about them? Not really any proof, when you think of what can be done with photoshopping and trickery. "The camera never lies" is a pile of crock... It may be obvious to you but it's illogical to me. Hopefully less so now. Link to post Share on other sites
Arieswoman Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 TM, To continue the discussion I wasn't necessarily referring to your aunt. I was outlining the methods and motives of demons. How your aunt coped may mean that her faith in god was stronger than these demons could penetrate... I dunno... That's fair comment. However, it seems to me that if you are to believe in demons then it's logical to believe in angels as well? Maybe my great aunt saw an angel in disguise - who knows? --------------------------------------------------------------- Let's move on to the accounts of nurses who saw a "mist" - or something similar - rise from the chest area of a dying person about the same time as they died. They took it to be the soul leaving the body, others might say it was some kind of energy being released by the Heart Chakra. None of this proves an afterlife, but it does show that there are many things we can't explain by science/logic. ------------------------------------------------------------------ As for "ghosts" caught on camera. Well, yes, it could be trick photography I suppose...... 5 Scary Ghosts Caught On Camera (Video) :Your News Wire Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Oh please - proving the negative... Please show me the evidence that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist. Please show me the evidence that Zeus, of Greek Mythology, does not exist. Convincing evidence is needed to infer what is likely to exist. Thinking you didn't like my question because it points out that you cannot prove there is no afterlife of which all of you who follow this line of thinking INSIST you are right:rolleyes: Link to post Share on other sites
writergal Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 (edited) Thinking you didn't like my question because it points out that you cannot prove there is no afterlife of which all of you who follow this line of thinking INSIST you are right:rolleyes: I don't think that it is possible for science and religion to co-exist, period. Religion is a belief system. Science is not a belief system; it's a process of methodologies used to find objective answers. Religion asks "why?" Science asks "how?" The only commonality between science and religion is that both are fallible. Science doesn't claim to be infallible or it wouldn't continue to evolve. Many religious folk however, claim that religion is infallible (incapable of making mistakes or being wrong). But religion IS fallible. I think science has easily proven that the afterlife doesn't exist. It logically can't exist. Take an unboiled egg. Once you crack it and scramble it, it's no longer a whole unboiled, unscrambled egg. You cannot return that egg to its original form. You cannot resurrect a scrambled egg to be a whole, unboiled, unscrambled egg. The same with the human body. All the elements that make up the human body decompose, including the atoms that make "you" you. The body's tissues become damaged at the time of death. Blood stops moving through the brain. The blood coagulates and can't be reversed. So the coagulated blood causes damage to millions of the body's cells. Essentially, "you" disappear after your body dies. "You" stop. Like the egg, you cannot reverse death. That's not to say that people haven't been brought back to life after being clinically dead for a few minutes. That is possible. For a few lucky few but not possible for everyone. And if you've been dead for a few days, even a few hours, you're dead. You can't be resuscitated. The Chemistry of Life: The Human Body Post Mortem Changes | Forensic Pathology Online. So that is why it is easy for me to believe that life ends with death and that there is no afterlife. Science proves that with facts. Religion objects to those facts with nothing but scripture as its defense, because religion doesn't operate on facts the way that science does. Religion asks science to "prove it!" but can't prove that there is an afterlife except to argue that there is one, because it's written in the bible. Edited June 3, 2015 by writergal 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 TM, To continue the discussion...That's fair comment. However, it seems to me that if you are to believe in demons then it's logical to believe in angels as well? I'm inclined to not believe in either. I was simply proposing a theory for your original question. Maybe my great aunt saw an angel in disguise - who knows? I certainly don't, and as I have said, I really can't comment decisively.... --------------------------------------------------------------- Let's move on to the accounts of nurses who saw a "mist" - or something similar - rise from the chest area of a dying person about the same time as they died. They took it to be the soul leaving the body, others might say it was some kind of energy being released by the Heart Chakra. None of this proves an afterlife, but it does show that there are many things we can't explain by science/logic. I agree. And it actually irritates me when those whose leanings are decidedly scientific, propose to try to prove/disprove things of this nature, all the time. Eastern philosophies prefer to sometimes 'shrug' and accept that there are some things which we cannot behold, and one should have a little respect, a little reverence for the things we cannot fathom... But the Western mind always wants an explanation, they always want to know, they demand a logical conclusion, and if one cannot be found or given, then it's all imaginary, fiction, a figment of the imagination... and to steal a phrase from Galileo Galilei, "Eppur' si muove!" ("and yet - it moves!"). Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Science FINALLY catches up with the Bible.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=q2H3XtEbWGc Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Science FINALLY catches up with the Bible.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=q2H3XtEbWGc I'm going to let someone else tackle this, but I couldn't stop laughing.... Link to post Share on other sites
GorillaTheater Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 Well, we're all going to find out (or not, as the case may be) whether there's going to be an afterlife. I'm not going to rule out the possibility. I'm thinking Lake O'Fire for TaraMaiden. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I ain't done yet.... Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I don't think that it is possible for science and religion to co-exist, period. Science and religion are one in the same if you ask me... both fallible. Both man-made or 'explained' by man. Religion is a belief system. Agreed. Science is not a belief system; it's a process of methodologies used to find objective answers. I would disagree with you on this as 'science' many times is made to fit ones own belief system and doesn't always follow truth. Religion asks "why?" Science asks "how?" I've seen many 'scientists' ask why. The only commonality between science and religion is that both are fallible. Science doesn't claim to be infallible or it wouldn't continue to evolve. Many religious folk however, claim that religion is infallible (incapable of making mistakes or being wrong). But religion IS fallible. No argument here or even discussion as I agree. God is in fallible- man is ALWAYS fallible. I think science has easily proven that the afterlife doesn't exist. It logically can't exist. Take an unboiled egg. Once you crack it and scramble it, it's no longer a whole unboiled, unscrambled egg. You cannot return that egg to its original form. You cannot resurrect a scrambled egg to be a whole, unboiled, unscrambled egg. The same with the human body. All the elements that make up the human body decompose, including the atoms that make "you" you. The body's tissues become damaged at the time of death. Blood stops moving through the brain. The blood coagulates and can't be reversed. So the coagulated blood causes damage to millions of the body's cells. Essentially, "you" disappear after your body dies. "You" stop. Like the egg, you cannot reverse death. This is where we greatly differ. After I die 'life' gets better and I don't cease to exist. I exist in the highest state (not higher than God, but higher than my previous state). That's not to say that people haven't been brought back to life after being clinically dead for a few minutes. That is possible. For a few lucky few but not possible for everyone. And if you've been dead for a few days, even a few hours, you're dead. You can't be resuscitated. There's much documentation concerning risings from the dead, but I don't have the time to look it up. So that is why it is easy for me to believe that life ends with death and that there is no afterlife. I'm glad atheism works for you I respect your stand. What I don't respect is when atheists attempt to shove their opinions (and they are opinions) down my throat and pass conjecture off as fact. Science proves that with facts. Religion objects to those facts with nothing but scripture as its defense, because religion doesn't operate on facts the way that science does. Religion asks science to "prove it!" but can't prove that there is an afterlife except to argue that there is one, because it's written in the bible. I've worked in the 'science' industry most of my life and it is fallible, very fallible. Religion is man-made which makes that extremely fallible... science is run by man and mans facts. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I'm going to let someone else tackle this, but I couldn't stop laughing.... Well you are the happiest person you know, according to you:) Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden2 Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 You see, when they're still making discoveries like this about cerebral function and physical connections, maybe it's reasonable to suppose that we are still at a stage regarding psychological/metaphysical phenomena that we cannot yet know or explain.... The words "I don't know, so I'll keep an open mind" are both commendable and to be respected.... Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 You see, when they're still making discoveries like this about cerebral function and physical connections, maybe it's reasonable to suppose that we are still at a stage regarding psychological/metaphysical phenomena that we cannot yet know or explain.... The words "I don't know, so I'll keep an open mind" are both commendable and to be respected.... I read briefly ... basically I want to be on LS, but am pre-occupied with other things:( I agree 100% if the article is what I think it is... I'm very much into neuroplasticity, the study of our thinking and it's connection with how our lives can actually turn out. I'm currently changing my entire life behind this concept, which has been in the Bible all along. TM, this is good, although this concept gets many into great trouble... as ones brain can fall out! Being 'open' to everything is not always good. I see what you are saying with the IDK part though. Link to post Share on other sites
autumnnight Posted June 3, 2015 Share Posted June 3, 2015 I believe in an afterlife. I cannot prove its existence. I understand that to many that sounds as if it flies in the face of my education and IQ. I believe many things I cannot prove. I believe that my dog loves me. I believe that no matter how any cars are in line ahead of me, I will ALWAYS end up in the slowest bank drive-thru line. I believe that the weather knows when I have just washed my car. I believe there are people who have the capacity and choose to respect other humans, regardless of whether they agree with them. I believe there are other people who will always go for the condescending cheap shot no matter what. I believe the former are better people than the latter. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Weezy1973 Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 I believe in an afterlife. I cannot prove its existence. The word "prove" should be abolished. I know it often gets said that you can't prove a negative, but you also can't prove a positive (unless you're talking about mathematical proofs). All we can do is make a best guess based on the evidence. If there's a lot of evidence, we can call our best guess a fact. There's a lot of evidence to suggest the Earth is a sphere, therefore we can say it's a fact. Even though it's really just our best guess. And there are some fundamentalist Muslims who dispute this fact and believe that the Earth is flat. I understand that to many that sounds as if it flies in the face of my education and IQ. I believe many things I cannot prove. I believe that my dog loves me. As stated before - we can't prove anything. All we can do is make a best guess based on the evidence. You likely believe your dog loves you because all the evidence you have supports that assertion. Your dog likely wags it's tail when it sees you, maybe licks your face, or will seek you out to spend time with you whenever possible. All these behaviours would provide you with evidence that your dog loves you. It's not a baseless belief. But still, it's just a best guess. You can't read your dog's mind. I believe that no matter how any cars are in line ahead of me, I will ALWAYS end up in the slowest bank drive-thru line. If you wanted to, you could test this systematically! But be warned, the results might be different from what you believe which would be quite unpleasant. So might be best to just continue to believe it in order to avoid unpleasant feelings. I believe that the weather knows when I have just washed my car. OK, so there's really no excuse for this one...most of us have a weather app on our phones which pretty accurately predicts the upcoming weather! I believe there are people who have the capacity and choose to respect other humans, regardless of whether they agree with them. I believe there are other people who will always go for the condescending cheap shot no matter what. I believe the former are better people than the latter. I'd say there are very good people, who might have "hot button" issues where they get so frustrated that they forget to be sensitive and tactful in their communication. Doesn't mean they're bad people. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mandymor Posted June 4, 2015 Share Posted June 4, 2015 But then, so does wasting the only life you have based on fantasies. And what does it mean to be a good person? Anything but a do-it-yourself faith comes with a far bigger price than you suggest. And no religion recognizes a do-it-yourself, believe-what-you-want religion. as valid. So based on what you're saying a child that believes in Santa Claus will waste his whole childhood based on a fantasy? I'm sure there are things that never would have been invented with that sort of reasoning. I never said anything about being a good person nor did I mention religion. I said "don't you want to be the best person you can possibly be", that is what most people in life try to do. This thread is not about religion, it's about the afterlife. By definition the afterlife is the concept of a realm, or the realm itself, in which an essential part of an individual's identity or consciousness continues to exist after the death of the body in the individual's lifetime. Link to post Share on other sites
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