Couples who breakup over marriage are not truly in love?

[candie13]

Although the state of marriage in itself is a joke...that's not really the reason that these men aren't marrying these women, they're just not in-love with them.

 

But it doesn't mean they won't get married in the end...most men do.

 

If you're pushing for marriage with a man, and he just basically folds for one reason or another...then you're asking for the title but not the substance of what you think it means.

 

Women tend to be really crazy and have to learn the very hard way with many simple lessons with men. They just simply don't do what they feel like doing or want to do...and yet women are constantly pushing for more than they want to give. What do you expect in the end? bliss? don't kid yourself.

 

there's a difference between men not wanting to marry their current partner and men not ever wanting to marry. While I agree with your post, in the first situation, if marriage is important to a person, he/she should not even date people who don't believe in marriage to begin with.

 

 

And this is the tricky bit, because every time women ask their SO "do you see yourself married", she is labeled as crazy / freak / obsessed. And the truth is, it does add a certain pressure, but it also clarifies things. I'm at a loss with this one.

 

I've dated a guy for 7 years. In the 7th year, I've told him I needed more stability on my personal life - we were LDR - and asking him where we're going. He said he wanted to marry me, we told this to his parents, had champaign to celebrate and all, yet he never brought himself to do it. So I've left him at the end of the 7th year. And of course he brought the ring, because he did not want to lose me. And of course I've refused to marry or see him again, as this is not how I want spend the rest of my life.

 

Last guy I dated told me, in a really random discussion, that he is not sure if he wants to get married again. Marriage is a dealbreaker to me, and apparently to him too, haha. I thought we had cleared the subject since the very first time we started dating, and also brought it up several times again. While he had shared his mixed feelings about it, he never said plainly "hold on, doll, I don't think I'll ever remarry". Anyway, I've stopped seeing him after that discussion, I felt gutted.

 

I feel you lose either way, however and whenever you ask that question...

[candie13]

Marriage means nothing if there is no commitment to back it up. I think marriage is a good thing I am glad I did it the second time around but it would mean nothing if both of us were not committed and loyal. It should be the roof on top of an already great relationship but the great relationship should always be the foundation because without that the whole thing crumbles.

 

how did marriage come up in your second RS, Woggle?

[Woggle]

how did marriage come up in your second RS, Woggle?

 

She wanted to get married and I said why not. This coming from a guy who swore up and down I would never marry again after my first marriage which was awful.

[ohso]

I know a guy who moves out for two weeks a year just so that the state cannot say they are common law. And they are as committed as any married couple.

 

My guy and I had everything in order, life insurance, wills, etc long before we married so that each would be taken care of should something happen to the other, and that the kids (my kids he is raising with me) are okay.

 

 

Why does he not want the state to say they are common law?

 

And why did you get married if everything was pretty much the same before?

[ohso]

Marriage means nothing if there is no commitment to back it up. I think marriage is a good thing I am glad I did it the second time around but it would mean nothing if both of us were not committed and loyal. It should be the roof on top of an already great relationship but the great relationship should always be the foundation because without that the whole thing crumbles.

 

Totally agree. So I don't believe in any other reason for not to get married if you are really committed, except not being truly in love. Why are people afraid of law, it's not like they're marrying the state, but their partner.

[elaine567]

Why does he not want the state to say they are common law?

 

I guess if a couple is deemed "common law" in that state, there will be legal implications and there will be legal rights.

He perhaps doesn't feel that is in his interests, so he moves out for those 2 weeks

OR

she is entitled to benefits perhaps, as long as she doesn't have a common law partner.

By him moving out periodically she can honestly fill in the form and collect her money.

[Ninjainpajamas]

there's a difference between men not wanting to marry their current partner and men not ever wanting to marry. While I agree with your post, in the first situation, if marriage is important to a person, he/she should not even date people who don't believe in marriage to begin with.

 

Yes and no, but not REALLY...if that makes any sense.

 

If marriage is important to you, and it is not to the other person...then you should have probably not be in that relationship for as long as until you figured that out. Because honestly, the result is the same...if he doesn't want to get married, you shouldn't care why if you can't accept it regardless.

 

And this is the tricky bit, because every time women ask their SO "do you see yourself married", she is labeled as crazy / freak / obsessed. And the truth is, it does add a certain pressure, but it also clarifies things. I'm at a loss with this one.

 

Look, any guy with half a brain knows that women want to get married...any man who assumes otherwise is an idiot, even if SHE SAYS, she never wants to get married. Now that doesn't mean he should hold out on her like a woman would, hoping she would "changer her mind" one fateful day...but he should not be surprised if that woman brings up the questions, regardless of the protest.

 

Men don't really have to worry about women wanting to get married...I'd say that's a pretty non-issue for men unless said woman is not interested in that man.

 

I've dated a guy for 7 years. In the 7th year, I've told him I needed more stability on my personal life - we were LDR - and asking him where we're going. He said he wanted to marry me, we told this to his parents, had champaign to celebrate and all, yet he never brought himself to do it. So I've left him at the end of the 7th year. And of course he brought the ring, because he did not want to lose me. And of course I've refused to marry or see him again, as this is not how I want spend the rest of my life.

 

That's about 5 years too long, if not 6. Don't know why you or any other woman would do that to yourself if you are hoping on marriage, it just seems ridiculous to me. Even if the guy wanted to marry you, you really would want to marry a guy who took 7 years to figure that out? c'mon now..it doesn't take half the time or even a third.

 

You weren't going to spend the rest of your life with him anyway, he refused to marry you because he didn't love you like that. Women can marry for a billion other reasons including love, men tend to only do it when they actually do feel you are irreplaceable, and that's rare with men...the percentage of guys that do that are the small minority, most are simply pressured into it or do it for cultural/traditional reasons..

 

Last guy I dated told me, in a really random discussion, that he is not sure if he wants to get married again. Marriage is a dealbreaker to me, and apparently to him too, haha. I thought we had cleared the subject since the very first time we started dating, and also brought it up several times again. While he had shared his mixed feelings about it, he never said plainly "hold on, doll, I don't think I'll ever remarry". Anyway, I've stopped seeing him after that discussion, I felt gutted.

 

I feel you lose either way, however and whenever you ask that question...

 

Well you feel gutted if you want the truth and it's not what you want to hear...but it's really the only way. But I feel a relationship should be worked up to that level, it's not like the "goal" end-game to me, like it is for a lot of women because I don't see how you would just want to marry "someone" so much that you already have this idea that you want to get married...before you even know the guy or who he is, or even if you want to spend your life with him...it's like women just like the idea of marriage (shocker).

 

Therefore I think women are crazy anyway, you can't escape that...they're looking for a puppet to perform in their life show, and guys often do the dance just to appease her and not have to deal with the problems, knowing that they could full well cheat and leave her if they so desire to in the future. If men had to actually marry and do it forever, it would be a whole different story...but you can just do it on a whim these days and then just call it quits....which is both good and bad, good because you can't get out of your stupid mistake, and bad because it takes absolutely nothing to get married..you could be the dumbest person on the planet and get married, or the lowest...makes no difference, just like people making babies.

[ohso]

Since adults tend to be crazy, play games and take nothing seriously, there should be a law to sign a paper when you have just began dating someone, so if you don’t get married after 2 years, you must split. Then you know from early on where you stand in a relationship, instead of wasting like 10 years speculating.

[candie13]

Yes and no, but not REALLY...if that makes any sense.

 

If marriage is important to you, and it is not to the other person...then you should have probably not be in that relationship for as long as until you figured that out. Because honestly, the result is the same...if he doesn't want to get married, you shouldn't care why if you can't accept it regardless.

 

This is where we disagree. To me, the difference is fundamental. I am willing to want to date men who want to marry, but Jesus Christ, I would not marry the first one who wants to marry me. I want to get to know him, see if I like him, if he actually is dependable, if we really love eachother and in the end, if we see ourselves married to one another. It is possible for him to want to get married (generally speaking) and not want to marry me, after one year of RS. It is possible for me to want to get married (generally speaking) and realize that I do not want to marry my next bf, after getting to know him.

 

Neither one of these possibilities guts me out, because we are not a good fit. It's two people seeing the future the same way, just not with eachother. The casting is wrong.

 

Look, any guy with half a brain knows that women want to get married...any man who assumes otherwise is an idiot, even if SHE SAYS, she never wants to get married.

 

I think it's dangerous to generalize. I don't think every woman wants to marry. I think most women may be see marriage in their future, more than men. That statement may be correct, also it is based on assumption, I have no data or facts to back it up.

 

Now that doesn't mean he should hold out on her like a woman would, hoping she would "changer her mind" one fateful day...but he should not be surprised if that woman brings up the questions, regardless of the protest.

 

Men don't really have to worry about women wanting to get married...I'd say that's a pretty non-issue for men unless said woman is not interested in that man.

 

can't really comment on that one. I do have women friends who are divorced who don't want to remarry ever again. Divorce traumatizes people. I was completely stupid to ignore that fact, however smoothly it happens - or should I say, however smoothly one says it happens. My recent ex was part of the "non traumatized" fakers. Or maybe simply more aware, I dunno, I cannot judge his reaction, I've never lived that experience to begin with.

 

That's about 5 years too long, if not 6. Don't know why you or any other woman would do that to yourself if you are hoping on marriage, it just seems ridiculous to me. Even if the guy wanted to marry you, you really would want to marry a guy who took 7 years to figure that out? c'mon now..it doesn't take half the time or even a third.

 

We were young, I was in my 20s when I met him and spent 6 years traveling from country to country, as an expat. I've met him in France, but lived in 4 more different countries and he loved traveling and visiting me in the process. I was having the time of my life. It's only when I've reached my 30s and frankly grew tired of changing countries like that - that things changed. I had no stability, as I was part of a fast tracking young managers who wanted to conquer the world and have the best careers ever. Turns out, best career ever does not warm the bed at night, so I managed to get a decent position in the country of our dreams and wanted to stop there. Trust me, until I turned 30, I didn't want to settle down. At all. It was freaking me out. I needed a burn out to treasure the stability of a home and of a solid relationship. Needless to say, I've had to manage a burn out and a break up. And another year later, a burn out, a break up and a lay off . Life's funny, like that.

 

You weren't going to spend the rest of your life with him anyway, he refused to marry you because he didn't love you like that.

See, you have no idea how he loved me or if he did or did not love me like that. All I know if I had a beautiful Cartier ring on my lap and said no. And reality is, every month for the next 5 years, the guy has been in touch. Sometimes more often, other times less. Last time I've heard from him was 2 weeks ago.

 

Women can marry for a billion other reasons including love, men tend to only do it when they actually do feel you are irreplaceable, and that's rare with men...the percentage of guys that do that are the small minority, most are simply pressured into it or do it for cultural/traditional reasons..

 

I respect men who refuse to marry because of the social pressure. Of course I do. No one should dictate to another human being how they are supposed to live their life. However... I believe that men also put a lot of pressure on themselves. There is that irrational fear of losing your freedom, more that social pressure, that makes men be reluctant. It's not even that they are not inlove or that they do not appreciate their partner, it's the GIGS scale 10.

 

And sometimes, they have to lose that special person to get over their inner fears - like it happened to my ex of 7 years. Him and his family wanted me to wait another 6 month, one year. I've waited 7 years, why couldn't I wait a little bit longer? So I was the bad guy, when I ended that RS and had to live with that tag for the next couple of years.

 

Well you feel gutted if you want the truth and it's not what you want to hear...but it's really the only way. But I feel a relationship should be worked up to that level, it's not like the "goal" end-game to me, like it is for a lot of women because I don't see how you would just want to marry "someone" so much that you already have this idea that you want to get married...before you even know the guy or who he is, or even if you want to spend your life with him...it's like women just like the idea of marriage (shocker).

 

I totally agree with this part of your point. You need to work towards that. Thing is, it takes time and a lot of emotional investment. And there are plenty plenty PLENTY of men willing to lead women on, to have them inlove and then change their mind. Which makes them stuck, because as the PO points it, it is very difficult to leave, and you feel tempted to give them more time... Wasting even more time and investing again more - more hopes in a dead-end RS. I mean, why would the guy want to have a woman stick around for so long, if he is faithful yet he does not want to marry her - because he does not love her like that? Why not cut the cord sooner, take the plunge earlier and go find that special one that they do want to marry? My answer is: because it's got nothing to do with their partner, but everything to do with their own fears. So they prefer to stay comfortable, in their safety zone. While time passes by. And time does not favor women, I can tell you that. Because other than the physical time invested in the RS, there's the time one loses to get over the heart ache. More time and bitterness, again.

 

Therefore I think women are crazy anyway, you can't escape that...

you're generalizing again

 

they're looking for a puppet to perform in their life show, and guys often do the dance just to appease her and not have to deal with the problems, knowing that they could full well cheat and leave her if they so desire to in the future.

there is a social and biological conditioning, I agree to that.

 

If men had to actually marry and do it forever, it would be a whole different story...

it's actually my idea of marriage. Ideal and false perhaps, but it's important to have big ideals.

 

but you can just do it on a whim these days and then just call it quits....which is both good and bad, good because you can't get out of your stupid mistake, and bad because it takes absolutely nothing to get married..you could be the dumbest person on the planet and get married, or the lowest...makes no difference, just like people making babies.

 

You can always get out of any stupid mistake. Always. It only takes time and money. I prefer to die an old spinster than marry a guy who thinks it'll all end in divorce because all marriages end in divorce and all RS fail anyway - and that, NIP, is the key reason why I've left my recent ex. It's very toxic internal belief, based on some horrific personal experience, I am sure, however extremely negative nonetheless. Not only do I want to get married, but I want my partner to believe in our marriage and in our RS as well. And you cannot get there, if you have negative self sabotaging thoughts. This is why I've called it quits with him and stopped investing in the RS, hoping to get it to the level where he'd want to consider marry ME, not remarrrying in general. Changing his internal belief is his homework, not mine. And it's a heavy heavy one, because it means accepting that also really really bad things happened to you, truly amazing and beautiful things can happen to you too, if you believe they will. I can't believe that for him.

Edited May 26, 2015 by candie13

[candie13]

Since adults tend to be crazy, play games and take nothing seriously, there should be a law to sign a paper when you have just began dating someone, so if you don’t get married after 2 years, you must split. Then you know from early on where you stand in a relationship, instead of wasting like 10 years speculating.

 

lol, no no. in order for a person to learn, it must learn the heard way. Pay the high price. Otherwise, one never learns and does the same mistake over and over again.

 

It took me 7 years the first time. 10 months the second time. And 4-5 the third time. I'd say these are definite improving signs, no ?

[stillafool]

I agree there is no point in blaming anyone. I think as much as she is at fault for staying, he is too. Both knew what would happen if they stayed together. Both knew upfront where they stand. BUT he could have been a bigger person and let her be on her own instead of sticking by her side when he knew she had a hard time letting him go and letting go of her dreams. Why do that? Why not give her an opportunity to get married to someone else then? She has much more to lose. Wouldn't that be love? I know many won't agree but this seems destructive, ignorant and selfish to take advantage of someone's vulnerability.

 

Are people that naive and think women can give up on marriage just like that? Like that's easier than sign a piece of paper if it means nothing then what's the fuss? That's just being dishonest about what marriage stands for.

 

So basically, she tries to be on his side for 10 years, but it ends because he isn't willing to be on her side for lets say another 10 years. I mean, something's gotta give.

 

I think it is up to the woman to protect her own heart. If the woman knows that the man doesn't want to marry then it is her responsiblity to move on. He may be in love also, without marriage, so why should he be the one to push her away if he loves her. I guess the man could say if she really loved me a piece of paper shouldn't make a difference. Marriage doesn't always mean security. That's why the divorce rate is so high.

[candie13]

I think it is up to the woman to protect her own heart. If the woman knows that the man doesn't want to marry then it is her responsiblity to move on. He may be in love also, without marriage, so why should he be the one to push her away if he loves her. I guess the man could say if she really loved me a piece of paper shouldn't make a difference. Marriage doesn't always mean security. That's why the divorce rate is so high.

 

There's no such thing as security. For sure marriage offers no guarantee. However, it is a symbol. It does have a meaning, however old, dusted it may be.

 

So if it's just a piece of paper that offers no guarantees, why not do it ? just a stupid plain ol' piece of paper, haha...

 

Because of the meaning. And however much the 2 pretend to love eachother, they didn't reach that level yet.

[ohso]

lol, no no. in order for a person to learn, it must learn the heard way. Pay the high price. Otherwise, one never learns and does the same mistake over and over again.

 

Yeah, it was a joke, but I wish there was a way to protect your heart the first time, without the whole slow and long process of tiny steps in learning by breaking it all over again. It leaves large scars and you're just not the same after it.

I am naive because I listen to my heart which tends to be stupid, instead of advice other experienced people tell me.

 

It took me 7 years the first time. 10 months the second time. And 4-5 the third time. I'd say these are definite improving signs, no ?

 

I really enjoyed your posts.

[central]

For someone who has been married before and gotten screwed over in a divorce, marriage is very unappealing. It can be the same for someone who has never been married, but has observed the unfairness of many divorces.

 

My wife and I didn't want to marry - we were and are sure of our commitment - but there were some essential benefits we needed to get in place that could only be accomplished by marrying at that time. Nothing has changed in our relationship, fortunately, but we agreed we'd divorce and try to return to the previous status quo if marriage negatively affected us.

 

Just as there were benefits we could only obtain through marriage, in a few years there are some we can only obtain if we're divorced, so we may do so (and stay together) to accomplish those goals.

 

In general, I'd say marriage is a risky business given the chances of divorce and the unfair legal system. I don't recommend marriage for most people - but, that's an individual decision.

[DKT3]

I have a good friend in his 40's who watched his parents have a very unhealthy marriage and then a "war of the roses" type divorce. I remember at the time him saying he would never get married. I believe we were about 14 or 15. He had had 3 major relationships two around 5 years and the last one 10+ years. He was very committed to all three women yet all three ended because of his unwillingness to get married.

 

Point of that story is its not always about fear of commitment, sometimes its about fear of ending up in divorce. Its easy to say if you love someone you marry them. Its not that simple for everyone. Fear is the most powerful emotion, and often can totally control ones life. Its not always a case of doubting who your with. The lack of understanding and compassion in these situations can be a two way street.

 

I know in my friends case he makes it clear that marriage isn't really an option for him, yet all three women continued in the relationship fully knowing this. I guess thinking he would change his mind.

[autumnnight]

I thought I never wanted to marry again....until I found someone I wanted to be married TO. I think that can happen, but if it doesn't happen for BOTH, there's no sense in belaboring the point.

[ohso]

I have a good friend in his 40's who watched his parents have a very unhealthy marriage and then a "war of the roses" type divorce. I remember at the time him saying he would never get married. I believe we were about 14 or 15. He had had 3 major relationships two around 5 years and the last one 10+ years. He was very committed to all three women yet all three ended because of his unwillingness to get married.

 

Point of that story is its not always about fear of commitment, sometimes its about fear of ending up in divorce. Its easy to say if you love someone you marry them. Its not that simple for everyone. Fear is the most powerful emotion, and often can totally control ones life. Its not always a case of doubting who your with. The lack of understanding and compassion in these situations can be a two way street.

 

I know in my friends case he makes it clear that marriage isn't really an option for him, yet all three women continued in the relationship fully knowing this. I guess thinking he would change his mind.

 

Thank you very much for sharing this. I do understand where he comes from because I have similar background, and your friend has the fear of commitment, it is exactly about the fear of ending up in divorce, and the roots of that fear unable him unfortunately to love on a truly deep level.

 

Yet, all three women continued in the relationship fully knowing this, thinking he would change his mind, because he had enormous potential and the need to be loved higher than average men, yet his love could've never reached the next level out of fear. So his problems became theirs.

 

We all have baggage, some even from very early on, in childhood, and partner can sense that something is stopping the other to fully commit on an emotional level. So, until he works through his issues, he'll collect lots of LTR until he clicks with the one as damaged as he is, and he might even marry her because it'll look familiar to something from his past.

[Mr. Lucky]

Then you know from early on where you stand in a relationship, instead of wasting like 10 years speculating.

 

At some point, the responsibility shifts to one who's waiting. No one could make me wait 10 years for something - marital commitment included - I wanted.

 

To paraphrase - fool me 1-2 years, shame on you. Fool me 5-10 years, shame on me...

 

Mr. Lucky

[123321]

Totally agree. So I don't believe in any other reason for not to get married if you are really committed, except not being truly in love. Why are people afraid of law, it's not like they're marrying the state, but their partner.

 

Why does love depend on a legal contract?

 

Doesn't standing in front of (God and) everyone you know and vowing to stay together in a civil and potentially religious ceremony carry just as much weight in the love dept?

 

If not, then you certainly have not adequately explained why not.

 

 

 

HINT: Smells like money.

[ohso]

Why does love depend on a legal contract?

 

Doesn't standing in front of (God and) everyone you know and vowing to stay together in a civil and potentially religious ceremony carry just as much weight in the love dept?

 

If not, then you certainly have not adequately explained why not.

 

 

 

HINT: Smells like money.

 

I hear you, but if you truly love and trust your partner, you want to share everything and become one person, or more likely at least not divide and separate anything, if I may say so. It's wrong to want to get married for money, but also wrong not to want to get married because of it.

That's why I'm not discussing legal and financial aspects of it since it seems trivial and I feel there's something deeper underneath the shallow bling bling stuff.

[123321]

I hear you, but if you truly love and trust your partner, you want to share everything and become one person, or more likely at least not divide and separate anything, if I may say so.

 

I hear a lot of music but you're still not explaining what, functionally, a legal contract adds to your love.

[candie13]

there are always prenupts, if one is afraid of getting screwed financially.

 

to me, it's thieves who fear thieves most. I don't like thieves. I don't appreciate the thief mentality. I don't appreciate people who are overly concerned with their financial situation / and or cheap. Most of the times, those who are obsessed with this don't have 2 dollars to rub together or have no vision or skill as to how to get around in this world. It also shows a lack of flexibility in thinking, a coldness in their character... to each their own.

[Michelle ma Belle]

I think it's absolutely ridiculous to equate marriage with love. And even worse to say that anyone in a LT relationship that is NOT married is NOT really in love.

 

Bologna.

[candie13]

whatever people in LT relationships think or do is their own business. IF both of them are ok with not making it official, perfect. There are open LT relationships, so monogamy is not even requested. Whom am I to say that there is no love in those relationships.

 

I believe the topic is here linked to one of the partners wanting marriage and the implications of this fact on the relationship.

[123321]

to me, it's thieves who fear thieves most.

 

Maybe, I would think it's those who have been stolen from, and those who have witnessed thievery who are most concerned but you might be onto a third group there.