Should catcalling and whistling at women be considered harassment?

[waterwoman]

Now I am an old bird it rarely happens - only occasionally when I'm out running and they see me from a distance - their faces are usually a picture when they then see my face and realise I'm 50

 

But when I was younger it used to intimidate me. I went through a phase of walking an extra mile to get to work just so I could avoid walking past a particular building site. I used to get that sinking feeling whenever i got nearer a building site. H used to be a carpenter and worked of many sites - he said it was just a sort of male-bonding exercise - competitive sexism just for a laugh. Pathetic.

 

This however makes me laugh

[hotpotato]

 

I'm pretty sure nobody wants to be hassled by anyone when walking from point a to point b (unless it's a super cute guy you're into, right), but fear of assault from cat calls?

 

Those guys are so lazy they don't even move or try to talk. That's why they yell out, i guess.

 

I've never seen a case of a dangerous catcall. It's nearly always a group of guys, doing something else, who see the girl walk by and yell out.

 

Just be mean. It's full license to be a complete and utter bitch to people bothering you in public. Call tgem losers, etc. They'll get the hint.

 

Similar to what i do when accosted by beggars. I ignore the first sentence and keep walking. Second sentence, I say no pretty strongly. Like "hell no" or "**** no." 3rd sentence, i have to admit i usually get pretty upset, turn around and yell at them while walking toward them. That works. lol

 

Similar with catcalls. Just give them the bitchiest attitude possible. It's in public. They'll stop.

 

What Jen is talking about is a whole different ballgame and definitely there should be some no fault law there like she says, imo.

 

Dang, I have! I was walking at the park, and these guys came driving up beside me and making comments about my body. They could have easily gotten and assaulted me. After that, i go to that park a lot less.

 

Giving them a bad attitude can make it worse. It's best to ignore.

[No Limit]

Personally I'm not bothered by catcalling at all. More used to "Hey Babe"'s though.

[toolforgrowth]

No, it should not be considered harassment. Is it immature, silly, and basically useless? Absolutely. But harassment??

 

When I was in the 8th grade, I came to school in a tuxedo because I was playing my trumpet in a jazz band concert. I was a good looking kid. While walking through the halls, the same 7th grade girl walked up to me and squeezed my a$$...twice.

 

If catcalling is harassment, what would unwanted physical touch be? Especially by a young girl in middle school?

 

I had a woman at a party last year grab my shirt and make out with me...all on her own. I didn't come on to her or anything. She did all this on her own with absolutely no encouragement from me. And she grabbed my shirt so hard that she scratched the hell out of my chest in the process.

 

Do you think that should be considered assault?

[acrosstheuniverse]

No, it should not be considered harassment. Is it immature, silly, and basically useless? Absolutely. But harassment??

 

When I was in the 8th grade, I came to school in a tuxedo because I was playing my trumpet in a jazz band concert. I was a good looking kid. While walking through the halls, the same 7th grade girl walked up to me and squeezed my a$$...twice.

 

If catcalling is harassment, what would unwanted physical touch be? Especially by a young girl in middle school?

 

I had a woman at a party last year grab my shirt and make out with me...all on her own. I didn't come on to her or anything. She did all this on her own with absolutely no encouragement from me. And she grabbed my shirt so hard that she scratched the hell out of my chest in the process.

 

Do you think that should be considered assault?

 

Yes. If someone comes up to you and touches you against your will, in an aggressive manner (I.e. Grabs you, not just pats you on the arm briefly or something) then it is assault. In certain circumstances you may welcome the touch, if you had pushed her off at a party angrily because you didn't want to kiss her then you'd be well within your rights to feel you had been assaulted, I know I would if a man did that to me. But it doesn't change the fact it's an assault, it just means if both parties are happy with it then it is let go. But people are idiots if they take the risk, if you ask me. I would say it's pretty rare for someone to come up to someone and forcefully kiss them without testing the waters first to see if it would be appreciated.

 

 

What did you do when this woman grabbed you, scratched you and then forcefully kissed you? The response makes a difference, but it doesn't change that it was assault.

 

Nice avatar btw, I adore Tool. Can't wait for the new album!

[thefooloftheyear]

Yes. If someone comes up to you and touches you against your will, in an aggressive manner (I.e. Grabs you, not just pats you on the arm briefly or something) then it is assault. In certain circumstances you may welcome the touch, if you had pushed her off at a party angrily because you didn't want to kiss her then you'd be well within your rights to feel you had been assaulted, I know I would if a man did that to me. But it doesn't change the fact it's an assault, it just means if both parties are happy with it then it is let go. But people are idiots if they take the risk, if you ask me. I would say it's pretty rare for someone to come up to someone and forcefully kiss them without testing the waters first to see if it would be appreciated.

 

 

What did you do when this woman grabbed you, scratched you and then forcefully kissed you? The response makes a difference, but it doesn't change that it was assault.

 

Nice avatar btw, I adore Tool. Can't wait for the new album!

 

Aside from being catcalled(yes, women do this as well)..,I've had all types of grabs from women, mostly when I was working at clubs...Heck, not too long ago , I had a woman customer just take both of her hands , grab my biceps and squeeze...Imagine if I did something like that to a woman I didn't know?.....I wouldn't do it even of I knew her well..

 

 

Its not the same ,,,,,Practically ALL guys would get laughed out of a police precinct if they attempted to file a complaint about it..It doesn't make me angry or resentful....Its just one of those things...

 

I just cringe when i hear women say..."hey, that's assault, they(guys) should have called the police!"...

 

It's not the same...because of the simple fact that the intimidation factor, in just about all cases, is not there...

 

 

TFY

[toolforgrowth]

Aside from being catcalled(yes, women do this as well)..,I've had all types of grabs from women, mostly when I was working at clubs...Heck, not too long ago , I had a woman customer just take both of her hands , grab my biceps and squeeze...Imagine if I did something like that to a woman I didn't know?.....I wouldn't do it even of I knew her well..

 

 

Its not the same ,,,,,Practically ALL guys would get laughed out of a police precinct if they attempted to file a complaint about it..It doesn't make me angry or resentful....Its just one of those things...

 

I just cringe when i hear women say..."hey, that's assault, they(guys) should have called the police!"...

 

It's not the same...because of the simple fact that the intimidation factor, in just about all cases, is not there...

 

 

TFY

 

Lack of initial intimidation doesn't negate the crime being committed.

 

If I'm minding my own business and a midget comes out of nowhere and punches me right in the testicles, that would be considered assault. The fact that I wasn't initially intimidated by him is irrelevant. It's the unwanted physical contact that matters.

 

Women are just as capable of rape, assault, unwanted physical contact, and lewd behavior as men are. Just look at how many female teachers are cavorting with their students mowadays. And any law they impose that places subjectivity of a crime in the hands of another group could come back to bite them. Just like we're seeing more SAHD's getting custody and significant alimony from their wives.

 

My point is that they need to be very careful about laws they impose, as they typically work both ways.

[Rejected Rosebud]

The N.Y study also spawned another experiment where men cat called other men, and it was NOT well received.

:

Yeh! That is a really good thing for all the guys who think it's okay to consider, how would you feel about men catcalling, grabbing their crotch while staring into your eyes and blocking your path, etc?? Yes you might punch him in the nose well we don't usually have that option!!

[Rejected Rosebud]

Women are just as capable of rape, assault, unwanted physical contact, and lewd behavior as men are. Just look at how many female teachers are cavorting with their students mowadays.

Of course we are just as capable, well, maybe not as capable because alot of that stuff is easier when you can physically overpower your victim, but anyway, have you read up on the actual statistics of female on male rape, assault, unwanted physical contact, lewd behavior, and "cavorting" with their students vs men doing the same things?? You should!! :bunny:

[thefooloftheyear]

Lack of initial intimidation doesn't negate the crime being committed.

 

If I'm minding my own business and a midget comes out of nowhere and punches me right in the testicles, that would be considered assault. The fact that I wasn't initially intimidated by him is irrelevant. It's the unwanted physical contact that matters.

 

Women are just as capable of rape, assault, unwanted physical contact, and lewd behavior as men are. Just look at how many female teachers are cavorting with their students mowadays. And any law they impose that places subjectivity of a crime in the hands of another group could come back to bite them. Just like we're seeing more SAHD's getting custody and significant alimony from their wives.

 

My point is that they need to be very careful about laws they impose, as they typically work both ways.

 

I wouldn't argue that, but the point is its a difficult thing to prove "intimidation" (via catcalling-thats what the topic is, right?), when the average homeless guy could physically over power even very fit women..

 

I mean, really...If I used the case I mentioned (true story). where a 115 lb woman grabbed me(I weigh a rock 225#), and went to the police....What really are they going to say to me? Do you really believe that they'd take me seriously??

 

Turn that around, and Id be arrested for assault- and rightfully so...

 

 

The dynamic is completely different...

 

TFY

[toolforgrowth]

I wouldn't argue that, but the point is its a difficult thing to prove "intimidation" (via catcalling-thats what the topic is, right?), when the average homeless guy could physically over power even very fit women..

 

I mean, really...If I used the case I mentioned (true story). where a 115 lb woman grabbed me(I weigh a rock 225#), and went to the police....What really are they going to say to me? Do you really believe that they'd take me seriously??

 

Turn that around, and Id be arrested for assault- and rightfully so...

 

 

The dynamic is completely different...

 

TFY

 

The point is it shouldn't be. Every law, rule, and freedom is a two way street. What applies to you applies me. If I can't catcall women, fine with me. I've never done that anyway. But that also means a woman can't shout "Hey, hot stuff!" to me, either. If a woman does that and it makes me uncomfortable, guess what? That's harassment by their own definition.

 

And if a woman were to say to me, "Dude, toughen up", my response would be, "Then why don't you take your own advice and develop a thicker skin instead of running to the nanny state because you were uncomfortable for a few monents?"

 

Women don't deserve special treatment just because they're women.

Edited May 12, 2015 by toolforgrowth

[waterwoman]

"But that also means a woman can't shout "Hey, hot stuff!" to me, either. If a woman does that and it makes me uncomfortable, guess what? That's harassment by their own definition."

 

Yes it is harrassment.

[toolforgrowth]

That just seems so asinine to me. "I can't take someone shouting a few words at me as I walk by." Really? You're that sensitive? You can't put on your big girl pants and accept the fact that some people are douchey without having to run to your nearest legislator?

 

Some women just love to wear the victim label like a badge of honor. It's really quite disgusting, and more than a little ridiculous. If a woman can't take a guy shouting "Sup babe??" at her, then she's gonna be in for a rough life because she chooses to live in fear and victimhood.

 

I'll repeat: I've never catcalled and I also think it's stupid. But this reaction to it is just completely overboard.

[Got it]

That just seems so asinine to me. "I can't take someone shouting a few words at me as I walk by." Really? You're that sensitive? You can't put on your big girl pants and accept the fact that some people are douchey without having to run to your nearest legislator?

 

Some women just love to wear the victim label like a badge of honor. It's really quite disgusting, and more than a little ridiculous. If a woman can't take a guy shouting "Sup babe??" at her, then she's gonna be in for a rough life because she chooses to live in fear and victimhood.

 

I'll repeat: I've never catcalled and I also think it's stupid. But this reaction to it is just completely overboard.

 

Why should we have to? And it isn't one guy. It may be one guy at a time, but there are many days, etc. where this is happening. And why should we have to routinely put up with that? Why does someone have the right to do it?

 

It has nothing to do with living in victimhood because you don't like it and are saying so. How on earth is that being a victim!?!

 

And frankly, I find far more men who like to wear the victim badge with colors flying. Life is just so difficult and no one is fair or pays attention, poor widdle pookies.

[toolforgrowth]

Life is just so difficult and no one is fair or pays attention, poor widdle pookies.

 

You just accurately described how I feel about this statement:

 

Why should we have to? And it isn't one guy. It may be one guy at a time, but there are many days, etc. where this is happening. And why should we have to routinely put up with that? Why does someone have the right to do it?

[carhill]

So, to both the guys and gals here, I'd like to hear some of your experiences with this (whether you were the catcaller or the catcallee lol) and would like to know if you consider catcalling and wolf whistling a form of sexual harassment towards women, if you think it's a form of disrespect towards them or if you think it's a harmless form of declaration of their physical attraction towards women that guys have been doing to the female species since the beginning of time.

My perspective would turn upon intent, which is unknown to all except the person acting, and venue, as to whether any breaches of law or social etiquette have occurred.

 

IME, the guys who have been the most successful with women, meaning they can attract women consistently as well as maintain long marriages, are those who are most forward and vocal with their interest, generally sexual interest, in women. Are they harassers? Perspective varies. IMO, the ones who do it in the workplace, where people are generally constrained by their employment agreements to a particular place and time, are breaching protocols of ethics and/or the law. In other venues, it varies. I think we've all received unwanted attention in life, and from people with whom we'd otherwise not interact with. Each situation is unique. Standing alone, it's difficult to assign a blanket adjective to all interactions. If repetitive between the two individuals and unwanted by one, more traction for the harassment moniker, IMO.

[toolforgrowth]

If repetitive between the two individuals and unwanted by one, more traction for the harassment moniker, IMO.

 

Bingo.

 

A guy saying "Sup babe??" once isn't harassment. But a guy continuing to approach and engage after being repeatedly told to stop? I could see that potentially being classified as harassment. And both genders can do that.

 

The funny thing is, I'm preeeetty sure that's how the law is already written.

[jay1983]

So what can we do about it?

[Got it]

You just accurately described how I feel about this statement:

 

Well that answers a lot of questions there Pookie. Glad to know you think harassment is appropriate. Sure that will lend itself to a number of successes in life. Enjoy.

[Got it]

My perspective would turn upon intent, which is unknown to all except the person acting, and venue, as to whether any breaches of law or social etiquette have occurred.

 

IME, the guys who have been the most successful with women, meaning they can attract women consistently as well as maintain long marriages, are those who are most forward and vocal with their interest, generally sexual interest, in women. Are they harassers? Perspective varies. IMO, the ones who do it in the workplace, where people are generally constrained by their employment agreements to a particular place and time, are breaching protocols of ethics and/or the law. In other venues, it varies. I think we've all received unwanted attention in life, and from people with whom we'd otherwise not interact with. Each situation is unique. Standing alone, it's difficult to assign a blanket adjective to all interactions. If repetitive between the two individuals and unwanted by one, more traction for the harassment moniker, IMO.

 

Really? You think men have been successful in picking up women by catcalling? I find that hard to believe as I no women I know has given any reaction to it outside of a middle finger.

 

And catcalling, even once, is considered harassment in some jursidications. Harassment in the workplace would be defined as "severe and pervasive" and seen as such by a reasonable party. But harassment qualifiers will vary by environment and obviously state/local/federal laws.

[carhill]

I simply watch what successful men with proven track records with women and whom women generally like and are attracted to do and comment upon it. They are attractive to women so their sexual forwardness is not viewed as harassment. A popular person may exhibit similar behaviors to an unpopular person and those behaviors are, or can be, viewed completely differently and have different emotional content attached to them simply through perception of the individual, their social power and popularity.

[Got it]

So what can we do about it?

 

Who is we? I think the general public can push lawmakers to put laws on the books to disallow it. And then enforce said laws to help curb the behavior. Also education of young teens/adults on harassing behavior tying it into rape related discussions, and adult sexuality discussions as well as general respect of other discussions.

 

I think people need to teach children that just because you can say an ********* statement, whether it be based on a physical characteristic, religion, sexual orientation, etc. doesn't mean you should. You should be respectful and polite to the general population and not feel you have a right to disrespecting thoughts and opinions.

 

Basically following, if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all.

[Got it]

I simply watch what successful men with proven track records with women and whom women generally like and are attracted to do and comment upon it. They are attractive to women so their sexual forwardness is not viewed as harassment. A popular person may exhibit similar behaviors to an unpopular person and those behaviors are, or can be, viewed completely differently and have different emotional content attached to them simply through perception of the individual, their social power and popularity.

 

Again, we are discussing catcalling/whistling. So we are talking random strangers on the street. In that context, not just picking up at a bar, etc. you have seen said behavior successful?

[carhill]

Yes, since I've worked in the blue collar world for going on 40 years now, I've seen plenty of it. Again, it depends upon the man. Such went on daily when I was a young man working in the industry. The few women who worked in my industry at the time (oilfield services) were daily targets, along with randoms. I always thought it was wrong but, hey, those were the guys with wives and girlfriends and getting laid so it's difficult to argue with what works. They knew how to work women.

[toolforgrowth]

Yes, since I've worked in the blue collar world for going on 40 years now, I've seen plenty of it. Again, it depends upon the man. Such went on daily when I was a young man working in the industry. The few women who worked in my industry at the time (oilfield services) were daily targets, along with randoms. I always thought it was wrong but, hey, those were the guys with wives and girlfriends and getting laid so it's difficult to argue with what works. They knew how to work women.

 

Yup. Carhill is right on.

 

Whether or not it's harassment is dependent upon whether or not the catcaller is attractive to the woman. Such subjectivity has no place in law. It can't be okay on one situation and not okay in another, based on the catcallee's whims. Too much gray area.

 

One whistle isn't harassment. It's a whistle...nothing more. Continued unwanted advances and pushy behavior? Now you're talking harassment.

 

Nag nag nag.