Question for Christians

[TheFinalWord]

If God is good, and God is all powerful, why do bad things happen?

 

From my deductions (and they are likely faulty!), the fact that bad things happen means either God is not good (I.e. He wants bad things to happen) or God is not all-powerful (i.e. He doesn't want bad things to happen, but can't stop them from happening).

 

Hi Weezy,

 

There are a number of these paradoxes that are fun thought experiments, but do not really do anything to undermine Christianity. Another popular one is can God create a rock so heavy He cannot pick it up. If He cannot create such a rock, he is not all powerful. If he can, he is not all powerful because He cannot lift the rock. If you are interested in these types of arguments, you can review this resource.

 

Put shortly, the word "all powerful" has a context in the bible. Briefly, there are things God cannot do. There are also things God will not do (they overlap a little, but for convenience sake we can separate them).

 

God cannot lie, break his Word, or perform evil. What God can do has to be consistent with his nature. Here is some biblical data to support this:

--It is impossible for God to lie.

--Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

 

--To declare that the Lord is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

 

There are things God will not do. For example, God will not accept any other sacrifice for sins other than Christ. Could He come up with some other plan? You could argue He could. But according to the bible, He will not. We know this because during his passion, Christ asked God to use some other way to save mankind, other than him having to go to Calvary.

 

Notice, in this statement Jesus leads with "you can do anything"..."take this suffering from me"...He followed with demonstrating his role as a servant, to not do things his way, but instead God's way:

 

Here is some biblical data:

 

• And he said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
  

Also, you have to ask yourself, can a series of negative events that lead to a positive outcome be considered "good" or does each event itself have to be good to meet a criteria of "good." In other words, can a totality of events be considered or not? Biblically, the temporal relationship is significant. For example, Christ begin crucified was not “good”, but led to a good outcome (forgiveness for anyone that wants to receive it).

 

The bible is loaded with illustrations of bad events leading to positive outcomes.

 

Here Christ is giving an illustration of the benefits of His death...

 

Unless a seed falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.

 

Another benefit of Christ's departing this world:

 

I will not be with you much longer. Though you are sad now, it is good for you that I go away. For unless I go, the Spirit will not come.

 

The apostles also showed us how bad leads to good...

 

It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

 

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

 

We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.

Edited January 28, 2015 by TheFinalWord

[pureinheart]

If God is good, and God is all powerful, why do bad things happen?

 

From my deductions (and they are likely faulty!), the fact that bad things happen means either God is not good (I.e. He wants bad things to happen) or God is not all-powerful (i.e. He doesn't want bad things to happen, but can't stop them from happening).

 

Weezy, I don't have much to add to the discussion except I so appreciate you creating this discussion- your communication causes this to be a discussion and not an argument- you are one cool person!

[pureinheart]

The problem boils down to free will. A benevolent God will not force his creation to follow his perfect plan. Did he know about it in advance? Sure. Did he stop it? No. But no amount of power or omniscience can logically stop created beings with free will from disobeying. This doesn't reduce his power. Instead, BY his power and THROUGH his power he has created beings IN HIS IMAGE who have wills. There is no inferiority on God's part. Rather, the inferiority is a mirage of logic on your part.

 

This is powerful. You know L, I strongly get the feeling that most don't understand free will or freedom which is very understandable. Living in a world basically controlled by man (not really, but you know what I mean) with mans 'rules', the concept of freedom is really just a concept, not something that is truly experienced.

[youngskywalker]

This is powerful. You know L, I strongly get the feeling that most don't understand free will or freedom which is very understandable. Living in a world basically controlled by man (not really, but you know what I mean) with mans 'rules', the concept of freedom is really just a concept, not something that is truly experienced.

 

Even among christians there is a big debate about free will. Calvanist vs. Arminian debate.

 

Anyway, god or no god, I believe we are very limited in our freedom to choose because our choices are very much dictated by our nature. If you wash a pig it will return immediately to the mud. It's the proverbial dog returning to it's own vomit.

[Levite]

Anyway, god or no god, I believe we are very limited in our freedom to choose because our choices are very much dictated by our nature. If you wash a pig it will return immediately to the mud. It's the proverbial dog returning to it's own vomit.

 

What you say here is true. This is the key to understanding free will versus fate. Both are true at the same time. The Bible supports both ideas.

 

God clearly says that he punishes people for choosing evil. Yet there are verses in Acts, for example, where Paul says that God ordained on advance for the Jewish sanhedrin to reject Christ and have him crucified.

 

There are no words to reconcile this difficult concept. All we can say is that, yes, we choose our actions. But our actions are determined by nature and fate.

[youngskywalker]

Actually, what is really going on is that people who do not believe in God, do not desire to believe in God, who have no real desire for understanding

 

Almost all the atheists I know are very well thought out and defend their belief system well enough for me to understand why they believe what they believe. Even if I don't agree I still see their point.

 

I used to be a devout bible banging christian. I'm not anymore and its not because I have no desire to believe in god or desire understanding. It was in fact, I think, my desire for truth that steered me away from the dogma of religion. Belief in god is, was, and always will be 100% faith. Cheers.

[Ninjainpajamas]

If "God" was all powerful and knowing then Lucifer would've never got the drop on him and taken those other "fallen" angels with him, but hey no skin off his back...because he would've foreseen every single event before it could happen.

 

Which also means God would have willingly created a faulty man (as he takes no mistakes....ever) "in his image", which to no surprise of god would have thus "fallen to sin" in which he would've also been aware of the fact Lucifer would have been able to influence them because essentially that's what it was designed to do, after all God doesn't make mistakes he just works in "mysterious ways" obviously..which thereby means "God" simply gave men "free will" simply to disobey him just so he could cast them into a lake of fire for a while just to bake their souls then after that toss them into the abyss of nothingness (great love story btw, I can see why you like the guy)...which I don't know about you guys, but if that doesn't sound merciful to you then I don't know what is!

 

Create something simply to destroy it...sounds a lot like man.

 

And people complain about the death penalty while their God plans to destroy your "spirit" forever...that sure sounds like forgiveness and love to me! Not like the guy is going to take any responsibility, he basically creates free will so he can kick you in the nuts when you don't follow his way...sounds like a guy people would love in person. But don't worry he's your best friend up until he destroys you forever...which is going to be most of us btw as we're "unworthy", including some of his followers....basically the guy unfriends you on FB without your knowledge.

 

But hey, why think of these complexities, let's just compare God to a parent trying to protect their children without remembering that those adults are imperfect and could very well be completely wrong and abusive...because I don't know about you guys, but if you're a parent it automatically makes you smart and means you always do the right thing...sounds like an easy way to become "perfect" to me.

 

You know why you need faith? To help you ignore all the flaws in the story that would lead to the endless amount of questions that cannot be answered....but I guess when you're used to never thinking for yourself or the right questions it's easier to just accept only the answers you want to hear...after all that's what faith is, you're not really ever supposed to able to understand it fully or think for yourself...unless of course someone provides a faith based answer, oh well theeeeeen you consider the "logic"....funny how that works.

 

I don't even consider myself an atheist, I just side with the fact that I do not know and because I don't know something I don't just create fantasies to answer the things I do not...whatever does or doesn't exist out there didn't give me a brain not to use, so if it doesn't add up it doesn't add up. I have no idea how religious people don't realize that their faith is as good as as anything else anyone chooses to believe in...after all its the believer that makes it real not the God, because if the believers don't believe then whatever belief there was no longer exists.

Edited January 28, 2015 by Ninjainpajamas

[autumnnight]

Almost all the atheists I know are very well thought out and defend their belief system well enough for me to understand why they believe what they believe. Even if I don't agree I still see their point.

 

I used to be a devout bible banging christian. I'm not anymore and its not because I have no desire to believe in god or desire understanding. It was in fact, I think, my desire for truth that steered me away from the dogma of religion. Belief in god is, was, and always will be 100% faith. Cheers.

 

It's easy to misunderstand a partial quote. My point was, people who ask these "can God make a stone so big He cannot roll it" aren't looking for answers; they are looking for a way "in" to say "aha! gotcha you dummy!" to people who express sincere faith.

 

I don't understand that kind of, well, just plain immature meanness.

[todreaminblue]

Almost all the atheists I know are very well thought out and defend their belief system well enough for me to understand why they believe what they believe. Even if I don't agree I still see their point.

 

I used to be a devout bible banging christian. I'm not anymore and its not because I have no desire to believe in god or desire understanding. It was in fact, I think, my desire for truth that steered me away from the dogma of religion. Belief in god is, was, and always will be 100% faith. Cheers.

 

Open minded people don't care to be right they care to understand. There's never a right or wrong answer. Everything is about understanding.

 

this quote rings true...you dont care to understand...you dont have an open mind at all......so therefore you dont understand at all.....either side....yay or nay.......deb

[Weezy1973]

Hi Weezy,

 

There are a number of these paradoxes that are fun thought experiments, but do not really do anything to undermine Christianity. Another popular one is can God create a rock so heavy He cannot pick it up. If He cannot create such a rock, he is not all powerful. If he can, he is not all powerful because He cannot lift the rock. If you are interested in these types of arguments, you can review this resource.

 

Put shortly, the word "all powerful" has a context in the bible. Briefly, there are things God cannot do. There are also things God will not do (they overlap a little, but for convenience sake we can separate them).

 

God cannot lie, break his Word, or perform evil. What God can do has to be consistent with his nature. Here is some biblical data to support this:

--It is impossible for God to lie.

--Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

 

--To declare that the Lord is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.

 

There are things God will not do. For example, God will not accept any other sacrifice for sins other than Christ. Could He come up with some other plan? You could argue He could. But according to the bible, He will not. We know this because during his passion, Christ asked God to use some other way to save mankind, other than him having to go to Calvary.

 

Notice, in this statement Jesus leads with "you can do anything"..."take this suffering from me"...He followed with demonstrating his role as a servant, to not do things his way, but instead God's way:

 

Here is some biblical data:

 

• And he said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for you. Remove this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”
  

Also, you have to ask yourself, can a series of negative events that lead to a positive outcome be considered "good" or does each event itself have to be good to meet a criteria of "good." In other words, can a totality of events be considered or not? Biblically, the temporal relationship is significant. For example, Christ begin crucified was not “good”, but led to a good outcome (forgiveness for anyone that wants to receive it).

 

The bible is loaded with illustrations of bad events leading to positive outcomes.

 

Here Christ is giving an illustration of the benefits of His death...

 

Unless a seed falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.

 

Another benefit of Christ's departing this world:

 

I will not be with you much longer. Though you are sad now, it is good for you that I go away. For unless I go, the Spirit will not come.

 

The apostles also showed us how bad leads to good...

 

It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

 

Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.

 

We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies.

 

So this is the best answer I've seen and somewhat makes sense to me. This is the sort of thing I was looking for in the first place. The way I saw it:

 

All powerful God + all knowing God + good God = World with pain, evil and suffering.

 

Did not compute. But the problem is in the premises. My definition of all powerful was wrong and my definition of good was wrong; given the adjustment in those two premises, it is much easier to see why there would be things we consider to be bad happen in the world.

 

Thanks TFW, I appreciate it!

 

 

PS: I'm still an atheist, just looking to understand more...I'm a really curious fellow...

[youngskywalker]

this quote rings true...you dont care to understand...you dont have an open mind at all......so therefore you dont understand at all.....either side....yay or nay.......deb

 

How is that so? If I'm so closed minded then why did I stray from my original indoctrination? Especially when my whole family is christian and I don't even have the freedom to express my views to them without becoming a black sheep? Do you think the persecution an antheist receives is something to be desired?

 

You may think the non believer is coming against the believer. We are only REACTING to the pressure put on us to conform. We don't go out door to door, handing out tracts to save your soul from eternal damnation. All the while preaching against the very sins you commit in the closet.

 

Many of the christian believers in here who post are just as promiscuous as the next person. Somehow they have the right to sleep around, lust, and masturbate but I don't?

 

Maybe I didn't direct my response correctly or to the right person but it still needed to be said.

[autumnnight]

How is that so? If I'm so closed minded then why did I stray from my original indoctrination? Especially when my whole family is christian and I don't even have the freedom to express my views to them without becoming a black sheep? Do you think the persecution an antheist receives is something to be desired?

 

You may think the non believer is coming against the believer. We are only REACTING to the pressure put on us to conform. We don't go out door to door, handing out tracts to save your soul from eternal damnation. All the while preaching against the very sins you commit in the closet.

 

Many of the christian believers in here who post are just as promiscuous as the next person. Somehow they have the right to sleep around, lust, and masturbate but I don't?

 

Maybe I didn't direct my response correctly or to the right person but it still needed to be said.

 

You are certain it needed to be said? Or it just felt good to say it?

 

Actually, you are sadly correct. There are many many people who claim Christ who have no problem squashing others who commit select sins while all the time committing sins of their own. They have decided there is some hierarchy of sins and that their sin isn't as bad as the sin they self-righteously and quite loudly protest. That is what is known as hypocrisy.

[umirano]

god is very busy and as such things fall thru the cracks

 

So he'd be negligent...

[youngskywalker]

What you say here is true. This is the key to understanding free will versus fate. Both are true at the same time. The Bible supports both ideas.

 

God clearly says that he punishes people for choosing evil. Yet there are verses in Acts, for example, where Paul says that God ordained on advance for the Jewish sanhedrin to reject Christ and have him crucified.

 

There are no words to reconcile this difficult concept. All we can say is that, yes, we choose our actions. But our actions are determined by nature and fate.

 

People who have a problem with believing predestination as taught in the bible will say that god only predestined 'groups' of people, i.e. the Jews to reject Christ, like you said. Likewise, god predestined the gentiles to at least have the chance at accepting christ.

 

The issue I have with that is there are individuals within the group. What god does with a group also trickles down to the individual. Nevertheless, I do believe the bible teaches fate. God can be the only one responsible for fate. He started the ball rolling, making it his problem and doing.

[SSJROMANCE]

Really believers DONT have a clue why this happens or they will feed U a bunch of crap and hope u buy it. My wife is a believer and she has a hard time answering this question all of the time. I asked her this same question again this morning and I got a new answer. This time she said that God allows bad things to happen so she can learn from it. Ha ha that's only if it's not bad enough to kill you. So dont waste your time with this question. U most likely will get a lot of bla bla bla bla bla.

 

I also asked her why God allowed 5000+ catholic priests to molest thousands and thousands of kids especially just after saying the lords pray "protect me from evil". How is that possible? The answer I got? She heard the church is thinking about reversing the policy of marriage or something like that to dodge the question. So she isn't interested in knowing the answer herself. It would be hell if the God she believed in all these years was a shame.

[TheFinalWord]

Really believers DONT have a clue why this happens or they will feed U a bunch of crap and hope u buy it. My wife is a believer and she has a hard time answering this question all of the time. I asked her this same question again this morning and I got a new answer. This time she said that God allows bad things to happen so she can learn from it. Ha ha that's only if it's not bad enough to kill you. So dont waste your time with this question. U most likely will get a lot of bla bla bla bla bla.

 

I also asked her why God allowed 5000+ catholic priests to molest thousands and thousands of kids especially just after saying the lords pray "protect me from evil". How is that possible? The answer I got? She heard the church is thinking about reversing the policy of marriage or something like that to dodge the question. So she isn't interested in knowing the answer herself. It would be hell if the God she believed in all these years was a shame.

 

God bless your wife.

 

It must be pure bliss being married to a man that mocks his wife's spiritual beliefs.

[csny111]

Did God know that Adam and Eve would disobey Him? Is God all knowing?

 

Yes, He did know.

[autumnnight]

God bless your wife.

 

It must be pure bliss being married to a man that mocks his wife's spiritual beliefs.

Very true. I am trying to figure out how this meshes with loving one's spouse.

 

Maybe that's why I Corinthians has that whole unequally yoked thing going on.

[The Introvert]

Jehovah God is good but the world is under the Serpent's control of the current system of things...He allows bad things to happen but does not cause them to happen...The year 1914 saw the world plunging into chaos as satan and his angels were thrown from heaven....but he will be thrown into the abyss...and Jehovah God will reign as sovereign ruler.........................fulfilling the promise of an everlasting life to His people....................