Am I unreasonable

[WakingUp]

You don't even live together. These events took place at "her" house.

 

 

What were you doing going through her emails anyway?

 

 

You have no right to ask for her phone records. How dare you do that?

 

 

Why do you feel such a sense of entitlement when you are only dating?

 

 

Why on earth she is prepared to work on YOUR happiness is beyond me.

 

 

None of this makes sense.

 

 

Do you even love her?

[Sassy Girl]

You don't even live together. These events took place at "her" house.

 

 

What were you doing going through her emails anyway?

 

 

You have no right to ask for her phone records. How dare you do that?

 

 

Why do you feel such a sense of entitlement when you are only dating?

 

 

Why on earth she is prepared to work on YOUR happiness is beyond me.

 

 

None of this makes sense.

 

 

Do you even love her?

Oh cool your jets. The righteous indignation is a bit rich, don't you think?

 

 

Of course he loves her. They are in a committed relationship (or so he thought). 2 years, relationship with the kids... They've been talking about marriage... Id hardly call that "only dating". He can absolutely ask for phone records. She has the right to refuse. The thing is, if its all above board, and the phone records have nothing to hide, then she could solve this problem easily and quickly... Notice she's not doing that.

 

If what he did was such a violation and not appropriate for the relationship, don't you think she would have walked? Based on your views, wouldn't you end the relationship, if what he did was that abhorrent?!? But she hasn't! She's asking him to leave it in the past and move on. She wants to stays in the relationship. See? Its not adding up.

 

OP - she's a liar and she's hiding something. Stick to your guns.

[WakingUp]

Oh cool your jets. The righteous indignation is a bit rich, don't you think?

 

 

Of course he loves her. They are in a committed relationship (or so he thought). 2 years, relationship with the kids... They've been talking about marriage... Id hardly call that "only dating". He can absolutely ask for phone records. She has the right to refuse. The thing is, if its all above board, and the phone records have nothing to hide, then she could solve this problem easily and quickly... Notice she's not doing that.

 

If what he did was such a violation and not appropriate for the relationship, don't you think she would have walked? Based on your views, wouldn't you end the relationship, if what he did was that abhorrent?!? But she hasn't! She's asking him to leave it in the past and move on. She wants to stays in the relationship. See? Its not adding up.

 

OP - she's a liar and she's hiding something. Stick to your guns.

 

Of course nothing. He hasn't stated he loves or is committed to her. Not in this thread, anyway.

 

 

She said she didn't want to marry or be committed to someone who didn't trust her. That's the only talk of marriage and commitment I have read here.

 

 

I think the OP is grasping at straws. I don't think she has necessarily done anything seriously wrong, more like she realises that he is a control freak and is nipping that in the bud before moving forward.

 

 

That's all. Just a different point of view to all the doom and gloom being broadcast.

 

 

Even the OP isn't sure he is being reasonable. That's the whole gist of the thread. Righteous indignation? There is a lot of it about.

[autumnnight]

For some reason I thought they were married. I probably just assumed since it is in infidelity.

[BetrayedH]

Thanks Spark. My thought too. I just got the email which says to "demand me records is not who I am." Says that being ordered to supply records will cause her to resent me and the relationship. She says that she will agree to open lines of communication going forward, and that she has given me no reason to to trust her. She now says she has run into her ex boyfriend and "he is always polite." Says she won't be married to or committed to someone that orders something that feels violating.

 

Does her explanation even make sense to you? Waywards always seem to have some nonsensical reason(s) why they can't come clean about things. It's all part of the crazy mental gymnastics they use to rationalize their actions.

 

A lot of us betrayed partners spend way too much time trying to figure out what our waywards were thinking. It's ultimately a fruitless exercise.

[oldshirt]

I just have to ask if you actually read the thread. If you read the thread then I have to ask..are you insane? Why are you talking about her rights as a "single woman" ? The OP says in the very first sentence they have been together for 2 years.

 

You seem awfully confused about how relationships work. It does not go "either you are married or you are single". You can not be single while at the same time not being married, it's called being in a relationship. This was for 2 years he said, not 2 weeks.

 

I'm honestly baffled, this isn't just a "different spin" on things.

 

Perhaps we should review the differences between dating, engagement and marriage.

 

Until a couple becomes engaged, they are single and dating whether it's been a week, a year or a decade.

 

Dating is an interview and trial period where people spend time together to get to know each to determine if that person is who they want to enter into a legally recognized commitment and make a home a family together.

 

Dating has no true commitment. Either party can end the interview and trial period at any time without repercussion or recourse.

 

A couple may enter into an informal, verbal exclusivity agreement but either party can end that at any time too with no legal recourse.

 

As dating is a probationary and trial period, the breaking of the exclusionary period does kind of give insight into the persons character and ability to sustain an exclusive relationship or lack there of.

 

As that pertains to this situation, the OP's GF is under no obligation to turn over any records or documents to the OP and she is free to see other people at her convenience.

 

As such, he is also free to walk away with no further commitment to her.

 

Doesn't mean there won't be finger pointing, tears or disappointment. It just means her has no right to her personal records and she has no obligation to surrender them.

 

If he wants to use her refusal as grounds to end the R, that's his perogative. Neither party owe the other a thing. That's what being single is.

[anika99]

Oldshirt I kind of agree with you in theory but these days a lot of couples move in together, buy property and have children all without being married. Do you consider these people as just dating? I know a couple who had kids together and have been together 40 years but never married. They own property and businesses together, so they certainly couldn't just walk away from each other with no repercussions.

 

 

You are right that the GF in this situation is under no obligation to turn over her records to the OP but that would actually be true even if she were his wife. People do not become prisoners when they get married. Wives and husbands are also free to walk away and date others whenever they feel like, and many people do just that. That's why there are so many divorces and affairs. Nobody has to live under somebody else's rules or demands. A woman who is interested in saving her relationship/marriage and rebuilding trust will be transparent and give the betrayed person what they need to feel better. If she doesn't do that then she does not care about the relationship/marriage and the couple should probably part ways. Doesn't matter if they are married or not.

[oldshirt]

Oh cool your jets. The righteous indignation is a bit rich, don't you think?

 

 

Of course he loves her. They are in a committed relationship (or so he thought). 2 years, relationship with the kids... They've been talking about marriage... Id hardly call that "only dating". He can absolutely ask for phone records. She has the right to refuse. The thing is, if its all above board, and the phone records have nothing to hide, then she could solve this problem easily and quickly... Notice she's not doing that.

 

If what he did was such a violation and not appropriate for the relationship, don't you think she would have walked? Based on your views, wouldn't you end the relationship, if what he did was that abhorrent?!? But she hasn't! She's asking him to leave it in the past and move on. She wants to stays in the relationship. See? Its not adding up.

 

OP - she's a liar and she's hiding something. Stick to your guns.

 

They are not his kids. They are hers from a previous relationship.

 

And yes, it's "only dating" untill you become engaged.

 

They are two single people and since he does not mention cohabitation or any shared properties or financial instruments, we can assume they have separate homes and separate financials.

 

As such he has virtually no right to her personal documents. She is in her right to chuckle at him and then ask if he wants to go out for dinner on Sat night or order pizza and stay in when he asks for the. She also has the right to tell him to F.O. when he asks for phone records, emails etc.

 

He has also has the right to walk away from her if he doesn't like her response as does she from him.

[oldshirt]

Oldshirt I kind of agree with you in theory but these days a lot of couples move in together, buy property and have children all without being married. Do you consider these people as just dating? I know a couple who had kids together and have been together 40 years but never married. They own property and businesses together, so they certainly couldn't just walk away from each other with no repercussions.

 

 

t.

 

Those situations would fall under that jurisdictions "common law" statutes. In those situations the court often handles it in the same manner as any kind of joint owner partnership and those situations would incur legal rights as well as legal obligations.

 

I am talking about the assumption of a couple living in separate homes with no children and no jointly owned properties or financial instruments.

[oldshirt]

 

You are right that the GF in this situation is under no obligation to turn over her records to the OP but that would actually be true even if she were his wife. People do not become prisoners when they get married. Wives and husbands are also free to walk away and date others whenever they feel like, and many people do just that. That's why there are so many divorces and affairs. Nobody has to live under somebody else's rules or demands. A woman who is interested in saving her relationship/marriage and rebuilding trust will be transparent and give the betrayed person what they need to feel better. If she doesn't do that then she does not care about the relationship/marriage and the couple should probably part ways. Doesn't matter if they are married or not.

 

 

This is also true ^^^^

 

However in certain cases a married person may supena (sp?) various records and documents from their spouse. Such an example would be to indicate infidelity in a "fault" state or in matters pertaining to a violation of a pre or post nuptial agreement.

 

Two single people living separately with no shared properties or legal/financial instruments would typically have no such abilities.

 

Yes, a married person can walk away from their spouse and may indulge in infidelity but the BS would often have a variety of legal recourses such as division of marital assets, child support, spousal support etc etc.

 

Two single people have no such recourse. When you are single and dating and your BF/GF walks away from you, that is simply what getting dumped is. You have no recourse.

 

Similarly if you no longer wish to date someone or remain exclusive with them, you can simply not return their calls and you can go out with whoever you please.

 

That may make you look like an Ahole or a queen bitch, but other than whine and bitch to their friends, there's not a thing anyone can do about it.

[oldshirt]

As this relates to the OP's situation, he can ask her to hand over her phone records and emails if he wants and he can dump her if he thinks she's hiding something or lying to him, but she is under absolutely no obligation to hand over any records or documents and on a very fundamental level she is under no obligation not to bang her Ex's or anyone else.

 

Obviously she needs to be aware that her R with her ex may flounder if she does those things and that he may very well walk, but it's still her right as a single woman and he has no recourse other than being upset and terminating the R if she does.

[oldshirt]

Hi All,

 

So I am in a long term relationship (2 years) and recently discovered I got massively lied to by my girlfriend. I was looking through her email and learned that 6 months ago, an ex boyfriend dropped by her house, allegedly drunk, she helped him to the car, and somehow lost her phone in the process. The emails show that she asked him back over the next day to help look for the missing phone, she criticized him on where to park his car (as the neighbors apparently hate him) and then when he offered to come back and help her look for the phone, she told him to wait so she could make sure I had gone to work.

 

I confronted, she initially denied, and then offered shifting explanations after I confirmed I knew what happened in the email. So far, she is outright denying that there was any physical contact. I have asked her for cell phone records from 3 months before this night and up to the present to verify her story. Am I wrong?

 

There are some complicating factors here, she has BPD and also has two kids whom I love very much and have grown attached to. I am just torn apart. Her kids keep asking me to "come back" but I keep telling them that I love them very much and they can always contact me. But at this point, I don't know what else to do...

 

She is now telling me she "won't be treated like a criminal" and wants to work on making me happy. She also tells me she doesn't want to look into the past. I have told her that its phone records or we are done.

 

Am I being too harsh?

 

 

So to address Jayinblue's original question -

 

- you are not being unreasonable to suspect that there is something fishy going on with her ex. There probably is.

 

- you are within your right to call in to question the survivability of your relationship.

 

- you are within your right to dissolve the relationship because of this.

 

HOWEVER -

 

- you have no right to her private emails.

 

- you have no right to her phone or any other records.

 

- she has the right to her privacy and the right to refuse you access to her private documents.

 

- she has the right to dissolve the relationship because you are demanding access to her private documents.

 

-and ultimately, she has the right to have contact with her ex(s) or anyone else. You can't control her or control what she does. You can only control what you do.

 

Meaning: you can't lock her up and deny access to her ex. But you can walk away from her scot-free if she remains involved with him.

[WakingUp]

They are not his kids. They are hers from a previous relationship.

 

And yes, it's "only dating" untill you become engaged.

 

They are two single people and since he does not mention cohabitation or any shared properties or financial instruments, we can assume they have separate homes and separate financials.

 

As such he has virtually no right to her personal documents. She is in her right to chuckle at him and then ask if he wants to go out for dinner on Sat night or order pizza and stay in when he asks for the. She also has the right to tell him to F.O. when he asks for phone records, emails etc.

 

He has also has the right to walk away from her if he doesn't like her response as does she from him.

 

 

This. Quite simply, a logical approach based on the facts as they are put before us.

[Spectre]

His points make perfect sense. They aren't engaged, married, or sharing financial responsibilities together... they are dating.

 

There was no excusing her behavior, he was saying she is showing him who she is; people always do. His decision isn't about demanding phone records. His decision is about can he put up with who she is.

 

But...I am sorry, this is just one big huge NO. His point does not make perfect sense unless we've entered Bizarro World. They were together, for two years. That means she is not single. There is no debate here about this issue, this woman was not single. So saying "hey a different spin is she was totally free to do this" makes no sense whatsoever.

 

They are not engaged or married, but they have been together for two years.

[Spectre]

Perhaps we should review the differences between dating, engagement and marriage.

 

Until a couple becomes engaged, they are single and dating whether it's been a week, a year or a decade.

 

Dating is an interview and trial period where people spend time together to get to know each to determine if that person is who they want to enter into a legally recognized commitment and make a home a family together.

 

Dating has no true commitment. Either party can end the interview and trial period at any time without repercussion or recourse.

 

A couple may enter into an informal, verbal exclusivity agreement but either party can end that at any time too with no legal recourse.

 

As dating is a probationary and trial period, the breaking of the exclusionary period does kind of give insight into the persons character and ability to sustain an exclusive relationship or lack there of.

 

As that pertains to this situation, the OP's GF is under no obligation to turn over any records or documents to the OP and she is free to see other people at her convenience.

 

As such, he is also free to walk away with no further commitment to her.

 

Doesn't mean there won't be finger pointing, tears or disappointment. It just means her has no right to her personal records and she has no obligation to surrender them.

 

If he wants to use her refusal as grounds to end the R, that's his perogative. Neither party owe the other a thing. That's what being single is.

 

This is hogwash, so unless a couple is engaged..they are single? Okay, let me stop you right there: this is not about you and your cdefinitions about what is or is not a relationship. They were together for 2 years, there was no "she was single" in this, so there is zero point for you to act like there is. It's irrelevant if this "dating is an interview" stuff you spout is what you believe, because we've been given no indication the OP has views that crazy on dating.

 

That is like if a guy posts a thread being upset his wife cheated and you post and say he shouldn't because YOU believe in things like open marriage, etc. Those are your beliefs, not his. This is the same, this backwards "you are not together unless you put a ring on it!" is utterly ludicrous. Does the OP have the same strange belief you do? Because otherwise it makes no actual sense for you to bring up if he doesn't. This woman was only single if she specifically had a convo and said "yeah, I have a strange thing where I believe even if we have been together 2 years, I am single unless we are engaged!". Do you feel she did that?

Edited January 25, 2015 by Spectre

[anika99]

This is hogwash, so unless a couple is engaged..they are single? Okay, let me stop you right there: this is not about you and your cdefinitions about what is or is not a relationship. They were together for 2 years, there was no "she was single" in this, so there is zero point for you to act like there is. It's irrelevant if this "dating is an interview" stuff you spout is what you believe, because we've been given no indication the OP has views that crazy on dating.

 

That is like if a guy posts a thread being upset his wife cheated and you post and say he shouldn't because YOU believe in things like open marriage, etc. Those are your beliefs, not his. This is the same, this backwards "you are not together unless you put a ring on it!" is utterly ludicrous. Does the OP have the same strange belief you do? Because otherwise it makes no actual sense for you to bring up if he doesn't. This woman was only single if she specifically had a convo and said "yeah, I have a strange thing where I believe even if we have been together 2 years, I am single unless we are engaged!". Do you feel she did that?

 

I think we actually are mixing up two different arguments here. On the one hand I agree with you Spectre. When I am in a relationship with someone I do not consider myself single. Nor do I feel free to go boink whomever I wish whenever I wish. I think if a couple has agreed to an exclusive monogamous dating relationship then why wouldn't they expect each other to honor that agreement? Can we not expect loyalty and honesty from anyone whom we are not married to? That does sound pretty silly and jaded. I expect my friends to be loyal to me too. The law won't make them be loyal to me but I expect it anyways and if they can't be loyal then I guess that frees them from being my friend.

 

 

Which brings me to the other argument which is; Why is the OP demanding phone records from someone he isn't married to and doesn't trust? He doesn't need the right to ask for her phone records, he can ask for whatever he wants, but what's the point? Since they are not engaged or married why bother? If the OP feels his gf is untrustworthy then he probably should just walk away from the relationship.

[jellybean89]

C'mon dude. The fact that she has BPD should tell you everything you need to know. People with that disorder are natural liars and can't help it. Also, she is gas lighting the crap out of you. If letting you see the records helps assuage the situation, then I don't understand why she won't do it?

 

I only got this far ^^ in this post and wow, jbrent, are you for real?

 

Bipolar disorder is a mental disorder. It is not something people want. It is a neurological disorder that requires medication to treat. You act like BPD is just an excuse and your SWEEPING generalizations that they are natural liars is astounding. Wow. Natural liars? Do you have BPD? Have you done any research on it? Have you any clue as to what you are talking about? Blown fricking away by your accusations and false assertions. Now I will question every thing I ever read from you

[DKT3]

Oldshirt while right in theory, your stance is too simplistic. There are real feelings and emotions involved here and OP wants to fight for this relationship.

 

If all that bonds a couple is marriage or the idea of marriage then this has become a sad world indeed. Commitment is commitment and true commitment doesn't need a paper backing.

 

That is also an issue independant of the phone records, being married or not. That is a matter of being safe in the relationship vs privacy. If they are unwilling to compromise then what hope do they have long term. Of course we all know if she didn't have something to hide this would be a minor spat at best.

[BetrayedH]

I only got this far ^^ in this post and wow, jbrent, are you for real?

 

Bipolar disorder is a mental disorder. It is not something people want. It is a neurological disorder that requires medication to treat. You act like BPD is just an excuse and your SWEEPING generalizations that they are natural liars is astounding. Wow. Natural liars? Do you have BPD? Have you done any research on it? Have you any clue as to what you are talking about? Blown fricking away by your accusations and false assertions. Now I will question every thing I ever read from you

 

This might be relevant except that BPD typically stands for Borderline Personality Disorder. Might help if the OP clarified.

[Realist3]

I don't think anyone has mentioned his access to her emails yet. That was a big no no.

[anika99]

I only got this far ^^ in this post and wow, jbrent, are you for real?

 

Bipolar disorder is a mental disorder. It is not something people want. It is a neurological disorder that requires medication to treat. You act like BPD is just an excuse and your SWEEPING generalizations that they are natural liars is astounding. Wow. Natural liars? Do you have BPD? Have you done any research on it? Have you any clue as to what you are talking about? Blown fricking away by your accusations and false assertions. Now I will question every thing I ever read from you

 

 

Yeah I think the OP meant Borderline Personality Disorder and a lot (not all) of people with this disorder are extremely good at lying and manipulating.

[oldshirt]

Responses below in bold.

 

 

 

 

Oldshirt while right in theory, your stance is too simplistic.

 

 

I like simple. 9 times out of 10 the most simple explanation is the most accurate. and usually if someone is making something complicated it's because they are trying to BS someone or pull something over on someone.

 

 

 

 

There are real feelings and emotions involved here and OP wants to fight for this relationship.

 

 

I never said there wasn't real feelings or emotions. I'll take the assumption he does have sincere feelings for her and she for him. Just that she has no obligation to turn over any records and he has no right to expect her to.

 

If all that bonds a couple is marriage or the idea of marriage then this has become a sad world indeed. Commitment is commitment and true commitment doesn't need a paper backing.

 

 

It's paper backing that creates and validates the commitment. Commitment without repercussion or recourse is just a gentleman's agreement with no mechanism for enforcement.

Try Joining the military by telling them that you'll serve for 4 years and that you'll be a good soldier and play by the rules but you don't want to sign any papers or take any oaths because an enlistment agreement is just a piece of paper.

Try getting employment by saying you'll be a good employee and show up to work every day but you aren't going to sign any employment papers because a true employer-employee relationship doesn't need any "paper backing."

Try financing a car or a house and say you don't want to sign any papers or put up any collateral because a promise is a promise

(picture Jim Carey in Dumb and Dumber handing over the briefcase full of IOU's for the ransom and saying, "those are just as good as money. They are IOU's!" )

 

That is also an issue independant of the phone records, being married or not. That is a matter of being safe in the relationship vs privacy. If they are unwilling to compromise then what hope do they have long term.

 

 

I agree.

 

 

Of course we all know if she didn't have something to hide this would be a minor spat at best.

 

 

 

 

I agree with that as well.

 

 

[Realist3]

That is also an issue independant of the phone records, being married or not. That is a matter of being safe in the relationship vs privacy. If they are unwilling to compromise then what hope do they have long term.

 

Zero.

 

There are really only four possible outcomes here, and 3 of them spell the end of the relationship, and the other 1 is at best 50/50 if it works.

[jayinblue]

Hi guys (and gals), thanks for the thoughtful replies whatever the viewpoint was. I agree with the "I have no right" to ask for documents line of thought, because correct, we're both single - however, we were also talking about getting married within next couple of months. I also have a daughter who is attached to my gf and her kids.

 

By unreasonable, all I meant is am I being too harsh by asking for outside verification of the truth. From my standpoint, I feel like there was a lot going on here, and if we are going to save this relationship, I need the truth, the whole truth, and to understand why it happened.

 

I guess it seems childish to some, but at the end of the day I do love her but I don't trust her at all anymore. I'm hoping that maybe if I get to see how bad it all is, that maybe we can start there and try to fix it.

 

But I have to say I disagree with the "interview" part about dating. I'd say in the early 6months or so you're interviewing. Once your kids have met each other and you agree to spend significant time together, and be monogamous, then the "walk away" isn't really true anymore. I mean, I can't just bail out on her kids, I have seen them all the time.

 

But she initially told me she never would show me records, but now she is going other direction. Only reason I'm really asking for them anyway is to get her to understand I really need the truth here on this one. Even if I'm frightened a little to find out.

[Realist3]

Trickle truthing the board is par for the course.