Damaged Goods: General Discussion

[Shepp]

Is it fair to assume that most people carry some baggage? If we hold ourselves to a strict account of other people's baggage, don't we limit the scope of people we can know?

Totally

 

To go back to my first statement about the origin of "damage", wouldn't it be a fair assumption that ultimately our relationship with our parents serves as the model superior to our relationships? We may get burned by a partner, but that is not going to be the teacher of how we treat and respond to future romantic partners, the relationship to our parents will serve as the final say. Agreed?

 

You know my wife went through some pretty tough stuff in her teens.. didn't always deal it particularly well ..totally impacted our relationship in the sense that she wouldn't date me on those grounds ..plenty of folk told me it wasn't worth pursuing her, that I should get myself a nice non-damaged girl! That some folk have issues you can't help them with.

 

But that girls my wife now.

 

Way I see it sometimes other peoples baggage will be too much to handle, and that's okay, we're all human, we all have our limits. But equally if you get through life without accumulating any scars then by my book you haven't lived, so I think writing someone off straight away for have a bit of baggage is stupid! At least get you head up enough to judge people on a case by case basis. Like what Johnny Depp said "We're all damaged in our own way. Nobody's perfect. I think we're all somewhat screwy. Every single one of us."

I waited years and years on my wife, which wasn't always easy. But where would I be now if I hadn't - that's a scary thought.

[SycamoreCircle]

The suggestion that what's missing in one's self must be down to one's parents seems very black-and-white and a bit pop-psych to me - I don't happen to find it helpful or illuminating. I would instead argue that people contain multitudes, and that one's baggage - to return to the topic of the thread - is created throughout one's life, not in the first few formative years. It's a moving target and a shape-shifting beast.

 

Recently, I was talking to my mother about my older brother, who just lost his wife to cancer, and his issues with anger, paranoia, hyper-criticism, etc. "He was always like that," my mother said, "even as a little boy." And my mother doesn't make brash judgments on people. It just baffles me---where do such crippling, retarding characteristics come from? For instance, my brother resolves to view society as alienated, fragmented and a place where "no one is able to relate to anyone else." And he reiterates this idea to the point that you believe he's trying to convince himself of it.

 

It seems to me that, in a grand gesture of self-help and self-empowerment, we all have the ability to look around us and say all that is good, that is fruitful which is happening around me, I have the ability to access.

 

The refusal to believe that is the obverse of egotism. You want to believe you're different than everyone else even to your detriment. Maybe our baggage becomes what we use to prop ourselves up.

 

"When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be." -Lao Tzu

[Emilia]

Recently, I was talking to my mother about my older brother, who just lost his wife to cancer, and his issues with anger, paranoia, hyper-criticism, etc. "He was always like that," my mother said, "even as a little boy." And my mother doesn't make brash judgments on people. It just baffles me---where do such crippling, retarding characteristics come from? For instance, my brother resolves to view society as alienated, fragmented and a place where "no one is able to relate to anyone else." And he reiterates this idea to the point that you believe he's trying to convince himself of it.

Sounds like he is suffering from depression. I'm surprised you in the family don't see this clearly enough and encourage him to seek help.

[SycamoreCircle]

I brought the thing up about my brother just as an example of a person I recognize living with serious baggage. I'm not necessarily trying to get specific advice about his situation. He is in therapy.

[salparadise]

Actually no, I'm 100% N. I think you just completely misunderstood my post. As I already said, I've heard of the theory and of course of the book; it's not exactly obscure. I have no doubt that he's a very successful guy; not sure why that would mean that I should agree just on that basis. I like to have my own philosophies.

 

Basically, I'm just disagreeing with the premise, which really doesn't need to mean that I'm uncomfortable with ambiguity - quite the opposite, IMO. I was explaining my (rather abstract and theoretical, actually) point of view, which simply differs from his (and, I guess, yours). The suggestion that what's missing in one's self must be down to one's parents seems very black-and-white and a bit pop-psych to me - I don't happen to find it helpful or illuminating. I would instead argue that people contain multitudes, and that one's baggage - to return to the topic of the thread - is created throughout one's life, not in the first few formative years. It's a moving target and a shape-shifting beast. That's how I see it; yes, I do think that it's really reductive to bring it all down to the parents. I don't know where you get "if you can't measure it it doesn't exist" from that - that doesn't seem to have any connection that I can figure out to what I said, which is why I say I think you misunderstood me. I'm certainly not interested in measuring anything, and I certainly never said that parents have no influence. I believe I actually said it may loom largest. But I maintain that they don't always set the tone of one's life, and I can't see how anyone can refute that, as we are discussing hypotheses (not theories) that really can't be proven anyway. We all just get to espouse our opinions and they don't really mean a damn thing, even that of a NYT bestselling author. If people find his therapy and framing device helpful to them, that's awesome. But I wouldn't, you know? And that's OK; it's why people seek out different therapists to find a good match.

 

But you know, people can disagree even if they're both abstract thinkers - that's part of being an abstract thinker: accepting and even enjoying different philosophies. That's really the fun of it. I'm concerned that you took my criticism of Hendrix's book personally, which isn't necessary.

 

I don't think anyone would claim, certainly not I, that none of our other life experiences have any effect, or don't contribute to the person we become. Of course they do. But the theory is that the attraction, mate selection, expectation, and disillusionment cycle is largely influenced by that first and most important relationship of our lives.

 

I am pretty much on board with the theory (although not prosthelytizing), and it is consistent with the work of notable other psychologists going all the way back to Freud. And no, I don't think it's just that simple or that it all comes down to that... so I don't think we're on opposite ends, I just seem to be intuiting it in a somewhat more tangible way than you.

 

When I say, if it can't be measured it doesn't exist, what I'm referring to is the argument that hard science people use to dismiss anything abstract or theoretical that they can't pin down and put a number on. About half of the people in the world are so uncomfortable with ambiguity that they deny the existence of anything they can't see, touch, taste, smell or hear... unless it starts with a capital G, in which case all bets are off.

 

I'm not taking anything personally, and I have no investment in convincing anyone to believe any particular way... I was just a bit surprised that you were so dismissive. And I apologize for mistaking you for a S-type.

 

I have something of a pattern of falling for the kind of women that you might say fit into the damaged category, so I've done a bit of reading on the subject. In each case, and similar cases where I was strictly an observer, what they all have in common is a tenuous to downright dysfunctional relationship with their mother and irrational, unrealistic expectations in close interpersonal relationships. So for me, the theory doesn't seem like pie-in-the-sky pop-psych at all. When I go out with someone new for the first time, I'll often give them a subtle lead-in to talk about their relationship with their mother and their early childhood experience.

 

I watched a documentary film a few weeks ago in which they were following children from infancy to adulthood, documenting the nature of the maternal relationships, and doing a bunch of brain scans and so forth to try and determine how the developmental process (experience) affects the brain functionally and physiologically, and how that translates into personality and behavioral patterns. They found correlations, so science is only so far away from actually being able to measure it.

Edited January 6, 2015 by salparadise

[autumnnight]

It's an oversimplified phrase, but I've heard it many times:

 

Life can make you bitter, or it can make you better.

 

I agree with the person upthread who mentioned coping skills. And as we grow to adulthood, what we DO with our baggage (bitter or better) IS a choice. The same two people can go through deaths, infidelity, abuse, etc. One person will still be ranting and punishing anyone and everyone years later. The other will have grown, become both stronger and more compassionate, and be a better person. No matter what we may have gone through growing up, unless there really IS a "Matrix," we all have choice. It's just that the choice to heal and become better is harder than the choice to become bitter.

 

I would be happy to be with someone who has a lot of baggage but they used it and allowed it to make them better. I wouldn't touch someone who chose to become bitter with a 30 foot pole.

[TigerLilly78]

My understanding of "damaged goods" has always been that a person has been seriously mistreated in a previous relationship. That hurt transfers over. "Hurt people, hurt people."

 

But as was the case with the relationship that brought me to LS, I knew the person for a year before becoming aware of serious problems. Namely anger, emotional immaturity, deflection of blame, low self-esteem, lack of empathy.

 

I guess I saw the faint outline of those things over time, but not until they were focused on me did I understand their depth.

 

Is it fair to assume that most people carry some baggage? If we hold ourselves to a strict account of other people's baggage, don't we limit the scope of people we can know? Must we all make the decision, "is it worth the risk?"

 

To go back to my first statement about the origin of "damage", wouldn't it be a fair assumption that ultimately our relationship with our parents serves as the model superior to our relationships? We may get burned by a partner, but that is not going to be the teacher of how we treat and respond to future romantic partners, the relationship to our parents will serve as the final say. Agreed?

 

There is a difference between "having issues" and being aware and able to deal with them and having issues and making them everyone elses problems by acting them out on a reg basis thats when things become complicated in relationships..im prob the most damaged women you will ever meet but yet I strive for no one to ever realize this..Ive carried many issues with me thu out a few relationships now and all its done is help to destroy the relashionship.

 

Im lucky enough to realize this now and am actively trying to keep my issues under control and not project them into my current relashionship. Its hard as some are deep rooted from child hood but one day at a time..the trick is picking the right relashionship from the get go as also such problems can make us continue to pick unhealthy ones or toxic partners hence continuing the cycle..

[aggie382]

This is one of the best threads I've read on any forum in a really long time. I'm just soaking it all in. Thank you to everyone who's contributed!!

 

It seems to me that, in a grand gesture of self-help and self-empowerment, we all have the ability to look around us and say all that is good, that is fruitful which is happening around me, I have the ability to access.

 

The refusal to believe that is the obverse of egotism. You want to believe you're different than everyone else even to your detriment. Maybe our baggage becomes what we use to prop ourselves up.

 

I couldn't like this enough. I just might print it out and put it on my mirror as a reminder.

 

I only wish everyone believed this. The world would be a better place.

[Frank2thepoint]

Thought provoking thread.

 

Finally you have the women who have been in several serious relationships that ended badly. Maybe one of the exes was violent, or a cheater. Maybe a failed marriage and all the dashed hopes and dreams that go along with that. Perhaps kids involved. Tend to be quite emotionally unstable. They may be highly suspicious that you are going to be like their ex; for example if an ex was abusive they will be looking for any little thing that could be an indicator. If you yell in an argument, you are abusive. If the ex was a cheater, they will be digging dirt and snooping all the time which will drive you nuts.

 

Is it fair to assume that most people carry some baggage? If we hold ourselves to a strict account of other people's baggage, don't we limit the scope of people we can know? Must we all make the decision, "is it worth the risk?"

 

Its the great thread, i enjoyed reading it. I wonder if someone here really felt the weight of bad memory, that literally cripples you? Like you having memories haunting you everywhere and when you look back at your past, to see the big messed up picture, you just can't help but feel like you never will be normal person again? Im afraid that there are things in human relationships that getting some people so damaged that they will never recover. Especially, when they have been hurted both by parents and by lovers.

 

All of my past relationships, and even the women I've dated, had baggage. I have some as well, as result from my past experiences with each of them. One of my baggage that, for a lack of a better term, "haunts" me is never being given a full chance, always being compared to a woman past exes. Basically I end up doing the prison time for the crimes of their exes. My last two ex-girlfriends did this to me right from the beginning. I never had a chance, even though I am a not their exes. They automatically assumed I was going to behave the same exact way as an ex, just because of some unique circumstance outside of my control.

 

In retrospect, I take the blame for continuing to pursue the relationship with each of them, because I figured I'd give them a chance, also show them that not all men are like their exes. I was a hopeful fool, hanging onto some ideal. So both were a learning experience, to which I will scrutinize any future woman I meet that clumps me in the same category as their ex, or utters "All men are the same" in a sentence.

 

 

 

To answer the question, is it worth the risk? If you've had enough bad experience (which is your own baggage of course) that points out the situation you are/may be getting in with a person is ominous, then it is not worth the risk. I've met quite a few women that have "improving" relationships with their mothers. Their capacity for emotional expression is nonexistent, and for me, it is ominous and I would never pursue such a woman. This is just one example, but there are many more.