feminists driving men away...video

[elaine567]

Feminism challenged the status quo, the status quo where men really mostly did what they wanted to do and women had to go along with it.

Many men liked it that way, they were in control, what's not to like?

 

I always thought a traditional "wife" would be a great thing for me too, not because I am a lesbian, I am not, but because having someone to support me, someone to cook clean and iron and run messages for me, someone to be my companion whenever I needed one and to stay out of my way when I had other things I wanted to do, someone who would do my bidding with little resistance from her...

 

The traditonal woman's role was turned on its head with feminism. Women no longer look to men. Many women do not even need a man, emotionally or financially. Women can actually challenge a man, women have found their voice and men, not surprisingly do not like it.

From having no say, to some say, to 50% of the say, is a huge leap and for some men they seem to assume the woman is somehow taking over, she is now dominant, she is the stronger sex, when the reality is that woman are just trying to occupy the 50% of space that is due to them.

[Tayken]

Should I ever have a son - of course!

Feeling for all those parents whose sons are going to college and basically expected to sleep around. There are plenty of discussions about those topics already.

 

 

That a girl / woman can take you to the cleaners e.g. 50-50 (having not paid equal amount in), alimony etc.

[Snaggletooth]

You are projecting LBH.

 

He never put all the ills of the world on feminism, and his other posts are quite close to neutral.

 

 

 

Thank you Radu.

 

LBH. What can I do? Not a lot, the die has been cast and what will be, will be. All I try to do is encourage the younger lads to be all they can be, rather than lower themselves into becoming what they complain about in the worst of women. That's what many women have done, become what they once rightly fought against and complained about in the worst of men.

 

What's been criticized in this thread is abusive behaviour from women to men, more specifically to young lads, and the precautions men are now taking (and parents advising) to remove that abuse from their lives.

 

I criticise the bad actions and behaviours of men far more then women. Difference is, if I criticise men who abuse women I get a bunch of likes under my post, if I criticise women who abuse men I get a load of earache.

[littleblackheart]

Thank you Radu.

 

LBH. What can I do? Not a lot, the die has been cast and what will be, will be. All I try to do is encourage the younger lads to be all they can be, rather than lower themselves into becoming what they complain about in the worst of women. That's what many women have done, become what they once rightly fought against and complained about in the worst of men.

 

What's been criticized in this thread is abusive behaviour from women to men, more specifically to young lads, and the precautions men are now taking (and parents advising) to remove that abuse from their lives.

 

I criticise the bad actions and behaviours of men far more then women. Difference is, if I criticise men who abuse women I get a bunch of likes under my post, if I criticise women who abuse men I get a load of earache.

 

Point taken.

 

 

Maybe what's been criticized by you is the abusive behaviour from a very small minority of women to young boys - who, you know, also have fathers who perhaps should play a bigger part in these boys' lives (another shockingly prevalent fallacy used by irresponsible men to walk away from the situation and point the finger at feminism for not allowing them their role, but that's by the by): the rhetoric you're using however, and this is what confused me a bit maybe, is that you are using feminism as a reason for that happening - it's not. There will always be bad mothers / flawed women (I know, I've seen some): this hasn't much to do with feminism, is what I'm trying to say. Abusive behaviour has a knack for perpetuating itself whatever the social circumstances, and sometimes these circumstances are wrongly used as excuses for justifying it.

 

 

I can only react to what I read - maybe you are fair-minded and are getting unjustified grief from women for defending men, but comments like these ones:

 

 

This is what feminism has become, though. Pecking. A constant, bullying, controlling, peck, peck, peck at men. Belittling their concerns and demonizing their natural energy, instincts and behaviour. It's no wonder lads are failing at school, it's no wonder lads are quitting on life and women. It's no wonder lads are losing respect for women. First they are smothered in cotton wool, then they are pecked to pieces. That's how many marriages are going as well, first it's all fluffy then the ring goes on the finger and the pecking starts. "Come here, heel, sit down, roll over, play dead, get therapy, or else!".

 

 

 

don't really help put your point across .

Edited December 25, 2014 by littleblackheart

[Snaggletooth]

Point taken.

 

 

Maybe what's been criticized by you is the abusive behaviour from a very small minority of women to young boys - who, you know, also have fathers who perhaps should play a bigger part in these boys' lives (another shockingly prevalent fallacy used by irresponsible men to walk away from the situation and point the finger at feminism for not allowing them their role, but that's by the by): the rhetoric you're using however, and this is what confused me a bit maybe, is that you are using feminism as a reason for that happening - it's not. There will always be bad mothers / flawed women (I know, I've seen some): this hasn't much to do with feminism, is what I'm trying to say. Abusive behaviour has a knack for perpetuating itself whatever the social circumstances, and sometimes these circumstances are wrongly used as excuses for justifying it.

 

 

I can only react to what I read - maybe you are fair-minded and are getting unjustified grief from women for defending men, but comments like these ones:

 

 

 

 

 

 

don't really help make your point across .

 

 

Comments like that are my point, LBH. Feminism is becoming something ugly. Increasingly it defends the abuses of women to men.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Snaggletooth

[elaine567]

Comments like that are my point, LBH. Feminism is becoming something ugly.

 

But feminism itself cannot be held responsible for abusive controlling women's actions towards their own children.

 

Women need to address the historical balance though, and I am sure in doing so that the pendulum will swing a bit too widely at times.

Everybody has their own perception as to what feminism really means, but to suggest feminism is driving men into their bedroms watching porn, playing video games and not interacting socially, is a bit too much.

I suggest we blame Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, the huge porn and gaming industry before we need to look at feminism.

[littleblackheart]

Comments like that are my point, LBH. Feminism is becoming something ugly. Increasingly it defends the abuses of women to men.

 

That's plainly untrue, and only shows you haven't taken the time to read my post. Abuses of women to men happen, you won't find me defending them. What I'm trying to say is that it's not down to feminism. It's what some people use to either explain, justify or malign feminism, but it's not what true feminism is about.

[Radu]

But feminism itself cannot be held responsible for abusive controlling women's actions towards their own children.

 

Women need to address the historical balance though, and I am sure in doing so that the pendulum will swing a bit too widely at times.

Everybody has their own perception as to what feminism really means, but to suggest feminism is driving men into their bedroms watching porn, playing video games and not interacting socially, is a bit too much.

I suggest we blame Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, the huge porn and gaming industry before we need to look at feminism.

 

It has already swung very widely.

 

Nobody in this thread is arguing about everything going back to the state of affairs of the past, of the before suffragette movement.

 

Against my better judgement, like a fool who just got dumped i feel the need to yet again engage ... so engage i shall !

 

First of all i'd like for you to understand a few concepts and accept them as truth with no buts/ifs/whatevas :

- let's say that there are 4 classes of men and women.

A, B, C, D, with A being the best and D being the least.

Women will tend [not absolute, it's a trend], to marry upwards, with men marrying downwards.

This leaves 2 classes with few options ... D men and A women.

As a society, it is A women that you want to marry off and for them to have offsprings.

Yet, they have the least options from the women ... this is happening right now in China.

Also there, more and more men feel like they are D class. In Japan about 70% identify as D class [the herbivores] and the men opting out of marriage/family are choosing D class.

- arguing is pointless; constructive arguing is not pointless but for constructive arguing to happen, both sides must be open to the possibility that they are mistaken.

When you, and others who are against this idea argue, you forget that you have no-one to argue against.

That is to say, there is no great judge to administer the right/wrong in this debate.

The judge is in the mind of the individual, and the individual can't be shamed/forced/whatever into doing his duty to society.

These men are not just opting out of the whole dating game, they are opting out of society.

They would rather not marry [a social construct to give support to a family], not have families and some choose to not even bother doing anything.

Everything that has driven human innovation throughout the ages has been from the men's desire to provide, to challenge themselves.

Them opting out might mean that the spark of innovation will leave.

Society has moved forward because the man has been willing to be put in front of it's cart, and pull it.

By challenging men in their masculinity function [this does not include getting a job as a woman], feminism has said they can pull that cart too.

But unless women need a man to pull the cart, a man will not find satisfaction [oversimplification].

There is room for both to pull that cart, and that is the ideal, but not as 2 men, but as a man and a woman.

Feminism [radical, 3rd wave], is essentially hopping happy at the idea of the man pulling the cart, but also giving his role as man to her.

For many men this feels like an impossible situation, one where the happy neutral place cannot be reached or which become too difficult to reach.

- the education system is focused on giving support to women, and some feminists celebrated the fact that 60% of college admissions are now of women, with women having most college degrees.

But who will these women marry ?

Are you trying to tell me that if there is an option, 20% [or more] of women will take the red pill that kills the desire for family to not apply pressure on the market ?

And such a pill does not exist.

 

The above are not debatable; in the same sense that you cannot debate global warming.

Sure, if you are one of the softies who works with words and not with math and equations, you can debate till you are blue in the face ... but it is happening, it has been known for 100+ yrs, and feel free to try to argue with a molecule of CO2 to act 'proper'.

 

All these forces work together to create the society that is shaping today.

Essentially ... it is either bad or good to be a man today ... depending how you see it and what you want.

It's not so good to be a woman in the next few decades because these changes in fact affect women most of all.

Men tend to have a 'whatever' attitude, and tend to complain less.

 

Maybe, just maybe ... there is some truth to the increase in use of anti-depressants in the western female, i don't know about you but i'll buy stock in companies that make anti-depressants and just have fun.

The human race won't go extinct, but it will be fun to see the slow death until something jolts some life into it.

[lollipopspot]

Everything that has driven human innovation throughout the ages has been from the men's desire to provide, to challenge themselves.

Them opting out might mean that the spark of innovation will leave.

Society has moved forward because the man has been willing to be put in front of it's cart, and pull it.

By challenging men in their masculinity function [this does not include getting a job as a woman], feminism has said they can pull that cart too.

But unless women need a man to pull the cart, a man will not find satisfaction [oversimplification].

There is room for both to pull that cart, and that is the ideal, but not as 2 men, but as a man and a woman.

 

This is load of b.s. It reminds me of the PUA guys who pronounce "man's role" and "woman's role." Guess what - in their version "woman's role" is always as helper and subservient to the man.

 

Human actualization requires that everyone (including women) are allowed to follow their intelligence, skill, and passion when possible, not to be in the position of merely fostering someone else's passion because that's their destiny given the kind of genitals they were born with.

 

Change is hard for a lot of people. Giving up power is hard for a lot of people. But you're not alone. It's hard for men to give up their historical position of power over women (according to you - all human innovation will stop!). But women are just as crappy as men, when it comes to giving up power. In fact, I've seen that the women here who fight hardest for their own rights will fight hardest to give up their abusive power over other species. So there you go. Seems to be human nature that people want for themselves what they won't give to others.

 

The above are not debatable

 

Sure it is.

[Woggle]

That's plainly untrue, and only shows you haven't taken the time to read my post. Abuses of women to men happen, you won't find me defending them. What I'm trying to say is that it's not down to feminism. It's what some people use to either explain, justify or malign feminism, but it's not what true feminism is about.

 

Feminism itself does not promote these things but often women who treat men in this manner tend to hide behind it. When called out on their crap they are quick to yell misogynist and talk about how people are afraid of a strong woman. They are not true feminists but they wear the uniform so sadly many people have a hard telling them apart.

[ktya]

This is a firecracker post that is bound to get out of hand.

 

The only people left posting are largely people with little to do on Christmas Day.

 

ie. single people without families at home to share Christmas with.

 

You will have singles, who are either unable to get mates or who have been burned. You will have the alone, the ignored.

 

Feminism is trash at this point (I support EQUALITY NOT MISANDRY) but to expect a rational dialogue at this day of the year is akin to wandering around an ammunition cache with a medieval era torch expecting not to be blown to bits.

 

For those of you who enjoy the battle, carry on.

 

For those of you looking for rational dialogue and insight; you may want to sit this one out.

[Snaggletooth]

But feminism itself cannot be held responsible for abusive controlling women's actions towards their own children.

Women need to address the historical balance though, and I am sure in doing so that the pendulum will swing a bit too widely at times.

Everybody has their own perception as to what feminism really means, but to suggest feminism is driving men into their bedroms watching porn, playing video games and not interacting socially, is a bit too much.

I suggest we blame Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, the huge porn and gaming industry before we need to look at feminism.

 

 

What about state institutions punishing or shaming lads for normal boy behaviour? What about drugging lads or telling them they need therapy? What about the constant belittling, shaming, ridicule, pathologising and accusations in the media? Where does all this come from? How did it become so prevalent? When did women suddenly become so expert on what it is to be a boy or man? Where did the belief that a boy doesn't need a full time father come from? When did zero experience, insight and knowledge of being a boy or man give women more qualification then men to teach lads what they should be?

 

These struggling, confused young lads are the product of a society where they are raised and educated predominantly by women in an environment that increasingly caters for women whilst pecking down men.

 

 

A lot of it's not intentional abuse, but abuse it is and these lads are being failed on many levels. They're being failed because of ignorance, neglect and perpetuated falsehoods about what men are and need. They are failed because they are unleashed into the world without the tools to cope with it. They're being raised in a world where the life lessons, opportunities, experiences and teachings my father gave me are often pecked down, scoffed at, scorned and denied to lads by women who do not understand the needs of a boy and what it takes to shape a boy into a man. The wisdom, knowledge and teachings previously passed from father to son are being eradicated.

 

Modern feminism, it's theories, propaganda, teachings and increasing ignorance, intolerance and half baked understanding of men has a lot to do with that.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Snaggletooth

[littleblackheart]

Feminism itself does not promote these things but often women who treat men in this manner tend to hide behind it. When called out on their crap they are quick to yell misogynist and talk about how people are afraid of a strong woman. They are not true feminists but they wear the uniform so sadly many people have a hard telling them apart.

 

Exactly what I was trying to say! Feminism is equality for both genders in all (or most) aspects of life - anything else (mostly) is a distortion either used by some women to excuse their behaviours, or by men to avoid their responsibilities...

Edited December 25, 2014 by littleblackheart

[Revolver]

Woman's standards are much higher than they were in the past(for a lot of different reasons) so the average man has to bring much more to the table than ever before. I don't think it's strictly "feminism"

[Tayken]

Woman's standards are much higher than they were in the past(for a lot of different reasons) so the average man has to bring much more to the table than ever before. I don't think it's strictly "feminism"

 

And what does the average woman have to bring to the table? I'll think at least at the minimum:

- post secondary education

- no smoking / minimum drinking

- honesty

- mutual respect

- ability to embrace equality (which ironically is what feminist group fight for)

[Radu]

This is load of b.s. It reminds me of the PUA guys who pronounce "man's role" and "woman's role." Guess what - in their version "woman's role" is always as helper and subservient to the man.

 

Human actualization requires that everyone (including women) are allowed to follow their intelligence, skill, and passion when possible, not to be in the position of merely fostering someone else's passion because that's their destiny given the kind of genitals they were born with.

 

Change is hard for a lot of people. Giving up power is hard for a lot of people. But you're not alone. It's hard for men to give up their historical position of power over women (according to you - all human innovation will stop!). But women are just as crappy as men, when it comes to giving up power. In fact, I've seen that the women here who fight hardest for their own rights will fight hardest to give up their abusive power over other species. So there you go. Seems to be human nature that people want for themselves what they won't give to others.

 

 

 

Sure it is.

 

I had 3 major points in that post.

You achored yourself on one of them, called bull**** without proof, and moved it towards the extreme to satisfy your need for a proof ... which obviously validates the entire novel i wrote.

It does not work this way, i wrote in that post.

This method of proving, of winning an argument is aimed solely at winning, it's a favorite method amongst politicians and academia.

My background is not words and manipulation of words ... you cannot change the tide with practices like these.

 

If you have proof that it is BS, bring it.

 

If you don't, i'll bring some.

In fact here's some; look at the college admissions in the different fields, remove the useless fields that are essentially extra's to society, stuff like social sciences, 'something' rights, everything to do with arts [includes architecture ... civil engineering is what builds stuff] and leave hard sciences.

Separate the numbers by gender and you will see something very interesting.

Biology, Chemistry and Medicine are the fields in which women tend to overtake men in numbers or have equal numbers to men.

Anything to do with hard science or engineering tends to be dominated by men.

If you look at the ppl who choose production over research, you will also see that women tend to prefer research [though that does not mean they are better at it] because it is softer ... it is nastier, more dangerous and far more smelly to sit in a factory.

 

Current western society is built on a fallacy, numbers of employment are hidden in plain sight.

Ppl are either sent to 're-education' if they lost their blue-collar manufacturing job and are old [a tactic to hide them in the statistics ... current US unemployment statistics could be as high as 10-12%], or sent to the increasing explansion of service industry in low level restaurant positions or Wallmart.

This cannot continue forever, because the basis of this is the continued reliance of cheap places to outsource manufacturing to.

Once those places run out, and eventually they will, you have to move production back home [and i bet it will return to the US in 40-50yrs].

In service industry automation is starting to enter even further.

 

My metaphor with the cart was something different, something that escaped you i see.

Men are conditioned by society/family to provide, to be able to provide for the family, to the point that in China/Korea you need your own place to raise a family in, or else you are not a man.

Being a man [desirable] one, is dependent on having one, and if you don't, you are a D class male and nobody wants you.

In China a lot of men are opting out because they find it impossible to buy an apartment considering the wages that have plateaued while the prices of apartments have increased.

In Japan, 25million ppl [out of 150m] live in Tokyo, and a studio apartment there will cost you 350k $.

All of this with diminished opportunities for employment and uncertainty, creates a situation where you tell yourself .... i can't win. It's not worth playing this game.

 

The situation in the West has different base reasons, but not that different.

Edited December 25, 2014 by Radu

[most_distant_galaxy]

I think that both sexes in western societies are still in a transitional period, trying to redefine their roles. It's only natural after so many centuries with man being the dedicated breadwinner, the resourceful fighter, and woman being the tender mother, the vulnerable housewife. The only thing that stays the same is that women need men and men need women to be complete. I don't know how and why, but they do. I know I do. So, patience...

[littleblackheart]

This is a firecracker post that is bound to get out of hand.

 

The only people left posting are largely people with little to do on Christmas Day.

 

ie. single people without families at home to share Christmas with.

 

You will have singles, who are either unable to get mates or who have been burned. You will have the alone, the ignored.

 

Feminism is trash at this point (I support EQUALITY NOT MISANDRY) but to expect a rational dialogue at this day of the year is akin to wandering around an ammunition cache with a medieval era torch expecting not to be blown to bits.

 

For those of you who enjoy the battle, carry on.

 

For those of you looking for rational dialogue and insight; you may want to sit this one out.

 

 

Some of us are having a lovely time sitting at the table, and a healthy(ish) debate fuelled by this very thread!

[Revolver]

And what does the average woman have to bring to the table? I'll think at least at the minimum:

- post secondary education

- no smoking / minimum drinking

- honesty

- mutual respect

- ability to embrace equality (which ironically is what feminist group fight for)

 

Actually none of that

[Tayken]

Actually none of that

 

Only a fool of a man will sign up for less than that. You only have yourself to blame if you go all in just for sex. Perhaps this is something specific to non-educated men / mommy's boys who always need a woman around to do things for them i.e. buy clothes for them, cook for them, etc

[autumnnight]

Feminism itself does not promote these things but often women who treat men in this manner tend to hide behind it. When called out on their crap they are quick to yell misogynist and talk about how people are afraid of a strong woman. They are not true feminists but they wear the uniform so sadly many people have a hard telling them apart.

 

This. So much this

[Snaggletooth]

I think that both sexes in western societies are still in a transitional period, trying to redefine their roles. It's only natural after so many centuries with man being the dedicated breadwinner, the resourceful fighter, and woman being the tender mother, the vulnerable housewife. The only thing that stays the same is that women need men and men need women to be complete. I don't know how and why, but they do. I know I do. So, patience...

 

..... and equality, equal opportunity, fairness, justice, accountability, consequence, truth, understanding, opposition, without oppression, entitlement, manipulation or exploitation.

 

Whenever one is more equal that the other, their will be no harmony.

[littleblackheart]

..... and equality, equal opportunity, fairness, justice, accountability, consequence, truth, understanding, opposition, without oppression, entitlement, manipulation or exploitation.

 

Whenever one is more equal that the other, their will be no harmony.

 

See, you're a true feminist after all

[Snaggletooth]

See, you're a true feminist after all

 

I've been called many things but never that

 

I'm all for equality, all for equal opportunity, all for earning your way on merit and ability. All for facing the consequences of your actions. All for all that entails.

 

I think the most equal opportunities a lad can have are a full time Dad, an education that understands a boy's mind and body, and a society that doesn't stifle, smother, silence, pathologise and medicate boys for being boys.

 

The ever growing Nurse Ratched that is appearing in society I am not so keen on.

[littleblackheart]

I've been called many things but never that

 

I'm all for equality, all for equal opportunity, all for earning your way on merit and ability. All for facing the consequences of your actions. All for all that entails.

 

I think the most equal opportunities a lad can have are a full time Dad, an education that understands a boy's mind and body, and a society that doesn't stifle, smother, silence, pathologise and medicate boys for being boys.

 

The ever growing Nurse Ratched that is appearing in society I am not so keen on.

 

 

Thank you for taking it in the spirit it was intended

 

 

I can't really comment on the bolded part as it isn't something I have experienced or witnessed - all I know is that it doesn't look anything like feminism would advertise - but I agree with the rest.

 

 

From what I can remember, Nurse Ratched is possibly more to do with bureaucracy gone crazy than feminism, in which case I can see your point!