Author Noirek Posted December 10, 2014 Author Posted December 10, 2014 Why don't you seek help to be assessed by a professional to see if you are either/both of those terms = sociopath and/or narcissistic. Because IF you are - your H has every right to understand he's living with someone who can't be fixed but is also living with someone that has no conscience. I saw a shrink directly after confessing the first time. He never suggested I was either. I never heard of NPD then and thought sociopaths were only those people who become seriel killers. We have only one psychologist where I live. I doubt he will have anything new to say.
beach Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 I saw a shrink directly after confessing the first time. He never suggested I was either. I never heard of NPD then and thought sociopaths were only those people who become seriel killers. We have only one psychologist where I live. I doubt he will have anything new to say. Suit yourself. I don't think there's anything we can suggest that you won't shoot down. Best wishes.
Author Noirek Posted December 10, 2014 Author Posted December 10, 2014 After all that has happened, why ? What do you get from this communication? Mr. Lucky I don't know. But I miss him when he isn't there.
Silveron Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Noirek, You seem to be having extreme emotional issues and I hope you continue therapy and if you are not, then please seek some right away. This MM in the long run is not going to make you happy. In fact your husband didn't marry you to make you happy, that is something that has to come from within. Perhaps you are seeking something from this OM that you are missing not from your husband but from within' yourself or it could be that he has such a distraction on your own inner demons that you can't help yourself but to find such relief. Whatever the case is, you are not a bad person. You made a couple of bad choices, however bad choices such as these you made do not define you as a person. If you feel remorseful about what you have done, then you should as a gift to yourself, rid this OM from your life. In the long term he has created more problems on top of the issues you are already dealing with. Look at this situation as a growing weed, unless you get to the 'root' of the issue and pull that weed out by that root, this weed is going to grow again in the future. This weed has already grown twice (the two affairs). There is a common denominator to this reoccurring issue that you are putting yourself into, not just the affair but the emotional breakdowns are you having that are not related to this affair. Your husband just as everybody else has boundaries and breaking points. Everyone needs security and you have ripped it from him, not only that but you are also telling him there is a chance that this will happen again. It's almost like you want to test his boundaries, to know he will *always* be there for you no matter what you do to the marriage to make it self-destruct, sort of how you are self-destructing within' yourself. Perhaps pushing him to the brink and him walking out will give you enough justification to make further bad decisions or even worse commit suicide. You have to find out that reason within' yourself besides just telling yourself an us that you are a 'bad person', because you are not. Like I said bad decisions do not define a person. However you have the responsibility not only for yourself but for your husband and children to get into the therapy you need so that these demons can vanish. Remember every thing that you do from now on is going to change your children, the drama, the rages, the cheating will lessen their security which they so desperately need right now and a little piece of their happiness will be gone forever when this contact with the MM continues. You might think they do not know, but they do, they feel the negative energy. Along with therapy I would suggest you get your focus back to where it belongs and start setting short term goals which include you, your husband and your children. Sit down, make a list of the things you want to accomplish with them this coming year and put the steps forward in making it happen. This will build trust, love and security. 1
Author Noirek Posted December 10, 2014 Author Posted December 10, 2014 Suit yourself. I don't think there's anything we can suggest that you won't shoot down. Best wishes. I never asked for suggestions. I have been open to them. I am thinking them all through. I think I might show this to my Husband. And maybe when he reads how truly awful I am he will get that there is nothing (me) worth saving here.
Silveron Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Noirek, are you suicidal right now? We need the truth on this.
Mal78 Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 I agree with the spirit of your post but a few things are not going to work. I don't have just $50 to my name so I don't know what it would be like if losing him meant being on the street. I do know though that if it takes punishment and consequences for a person to behave they aren't worth having. That would be me being afraid of losing my lifestyle and not my husband. I work part time because that is all we can afford for me to do. Child care where I live costs $45 dollars a day with no part time daycare available. And $50 for kids under 6. I am not sure how many times I say I have been honest with how capable I am at being terrible. He has seen it. Curious, how do you have the opportunity? If your children are young (even younger 2 years ago) and you can't afford childcare so assuming you have them most of the time when did/do you have your PA with the OM? How did you meet this MM? I'm honestly trying to wrap my head around it only because we have somewhat parallel lives and although I have opportunities to go out (gym, grocery shopping, coffee with a friend...ect) I can't pick through my day and find an opportunity to have an affair. It's not that I don't have time, it's opportunity. I appreciate your honestly here so hoped (not that I am looking) you could she'd insight. Is this OM a friend of your H?
Author Noirek Posted December 10, 2014 Author Posted December 10, 2014 Noirek, are you suicidal right now? We need the truth on this. No, almost killing myself caused such trauma to everyone I won't go down that road again. Even I have a limit to my selfishness.
beach Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Have you ever explored the possibility that you continue with self destructive choices? Ever get help with that?
Author Noirek Posted December 10, 2014 Author Posted December 10, 2014 Noirek, You seem to be having extreme emotional issues and I hope you continue therapy and if you are not, then please seek some right away. This MM in the long run is not going to make you happy. In fact your husband didn't marry you to make you happy, that is something that has to come from within. Perhaps you are seeking something from this OM that you are missing not from your husband but from within' yourself or it could be that he has such a distraction on your own inner demons that you can't help yourself but to find such relief. Whatever the case is, you are not a bad person. You made a couple of bad choices, however bad choices such as these you made do not define you as a person. If you feel remorseful about what you have done, then you should as a gift to yourself, rid this OM from your life. In the long term he has created more problems on top of the issues you are already dealing with. Look at this situation as a growing weed, unless you get to the 'root' of the issue and pull that weed out by that root, this weed is going to grow again in the future. This weed has already grown twice (the two affairs). There is a common denominator to this reoccurring issue that you are putting yourself into, not just the affair but the emotional breakdowns are you having that are not related to this affair. Your husband just as everybody else has boundaries and breaking points. Everyone needs security and you have ripped it from him, not only that but you are also telling him there is a chance that this will happen again. It's almost like you want to test his boundaries, to know he will *always* be there for you no matter what you do to the marriage to make it self-destruct, sort of how you are self-destructing within' yourself. Perhaps pushing him to the brink and him walking out will give you enough justification to make further bad decisions or even worse commit suicide. You have to find out that reason within' yourself besides just telling yourself an us that you are a 'bad person', because you are not. Like I said bad decisions do not define a person. However you have the responsibility not only for yourself but for your husband and children to get into the therapy you need so that these demons can vanish. Remember every thing that you do from now on is going to change your children, the drama, the rages, the cheating will lessen their security which they so desperately need right now and a little piece of their happiness will be gone forever when this contact with the MM continues. You might think they do not know, but they do, they feel the negative energy. Along with therapy I would suggest you get your focus back to where it belongs and start setting short term goals which include you, your husband and your children. Sit down, make a list of the things you want to accomplish with them this coming year and put the steps forward in making it happen. This will build trust, love and security. I don't know who you are and you only have a few posts for a very long time being here. But thank you for this. I have been reading this post and others over and over. 2
Silveron Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Noirek, This is your cry for help, you are not selfish you are experiencing a bad moment in your life right now that us as a community here are going to try to help you. Though you will get a mixed response and possible some bad advice most here are concerned about you, your husband and your children. Please read my previous post and let me know your thoughts. The only other question I have is what is your end-goal in this? Where do you want to be in a year in regards to your life? 1
Author Noirek Posted December 10, 2014 Author Posted December 10, 2014 Curious, how do you have the opportunity? If your children are young (even younger 2 years ago) and you can't afford childcare so assuming you have them most of the time when did/do you have your PA with the OM? How did you meet this MM? I'm honestly trying to wrap my head around it only because we have somewhat parallel lives and although I have opportunities to go out (gym, grocery shopping, coffee with a friend...ect) I can't pick through my day and find an opportunity to have an affair. It's not that I don't have time, it's opportunity. I appreciate your honestly here so hoped (not that I am looking) you could she'd insight. Is this OM a friend of your H? His wife was my husband's HS friend. We were couple friends with them before the A started. We had sex three times during the PA. Not exactly a weekly thing. We texted and chatted a lot. This time we just send random emails back and forth.
Author Noirek Posted December 10, 2014 Author Posted December 10, 2014 Have you ever explored the possibility that you continue with self destructive choices? Ever get help with that? No, I do sometimes feel I am self destructive. But I haven't talked to a professional about it. There are counsellors besides the MD where I live. I don't have a lot of faith in psychotherapy but I could try it anyways.
BetrayedH Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 i see that you're mired in self-loathing and shame. I'd encourage you to spend your energy elsewhere. Meant gently, it's a form of continued selfishness. You are deep in the rabbit hole. Yes, it is of your own choosing but focusing on that isn't resolving anything for you or your family. It's your actions that will begin to dig you out of this mess. Start focusing on those rather than the emotions. That said, you can still be introspective. I very much like the tone and theme of Silveron's post. Personally, I believe that getting down to your personal "why" behind this affair is critical. You know your affair wasn't logical - it didn't solve your marital problems but made them worse. Your affair wasn't ethical - you kept your husband faithful to you while you played single. Your affair wasn't moral - I bet it goes against your personal beliefs. It wasn't healthy - in fact, it has rained destruction upon you and those around you. So, the question becomes...Why on earth would you do it? I believe that you never really delved into this sufficiently after your affair and that's why it has resurfaced. You need to get past the surface answers (such as unmet needs in the marriage or "I'm a selfish whore"). In my time earning a virtual PhD in Infidelity I see three common traits in a wayward spouse. (1) An excessive need for external validation, (2) Severe conflict-avoidance, or (3) An overdeveloped sense of entitlement. In some cases, it's a combination. For some people, they lack self-pride, self-esteem, and self-respect so much that the need for validation from others is incredibly powerful. No one person can provide enough to make you feel better about yourself. In fact, the love of a spouse isn't very validating at all -- they are contractually stuck with you and not even allowed to have sex with someone else. But attention from another man, especially a married man that would take a HUGE risk with his family and career just to be with you -- well, that's very validating. It makes you feel that you must really be something special for him to take such a huge risk, right? Sadly, your husband cannot compete with this. Others are severely conflict-avoidant. They so fear conflict that they cannot share what they "need." But avoiding problems doesn't make them go away, at least not for long. In fact, it builds resentment. And if anything will kill a marriage, it's unresolved resentment. It never goes away. It WILL eventually come out, and it's typically in a much less controlled fashion than if you had just dealt with the problem(s) in the first place. Instead, it manifests into passive-aggressive behavior, big arguments, or affairs. Others simply feel entitled to "more" in life. They can justify poor behavior with phrases like, "I deserve to be happy" or "What they don't know won't hurt them." The consistent thread amongst the need for external validation, conflict-avoidance, and self-entitlement is that they probably all developed during childhood. It is critical to figure out "why" you need external validation so much that you'd make illogical, unethical, immoral, and destructive choices in order to get it. Were you unloved, abandoned, always seeking parental approval? If you are conflict-avoidant, why is that and where did it come from? If you are very self-entitled, where did that comes from? Perhaps your upbringing? This is where therapy comes in. You need to "dig deep" to determine your personal "why." Once you at least identify it, you may be able to better recognize when it's happening with you and head it off at the pass. And your husband may feel that he's less likely to suffer a reoccurrence. I agree with Silveron that your actions were "bad" actions but they don't need to define you as a bad person. The difference between bad actions and a bad person is consistency. You simply need to change your actions to ones that you can be proud of and, given time and consistency, your self-pride will return. And you will then be worthy of forgiveness. In the meantime, dig deep to figure out why this coping mechanism (getting validation from an adulterer) is so critical to you and work on replacing that poor coping mechanism with a good one. You're in a critical period right now where the love of your husband is still available. Don't squander it. 3
pfft Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 If you only knew what it felt like inside to be betrayed you would never have had or have had again an affair. Your husband is such a mess inside right now he is completely unable to help himself. Divorce him and give him a fair deal, even if he begs you to stay. I promise you that in a few years when he finally accepts and gets his "new normal" life together he will be happier and will be at the point where he couldn't have imagined staying with you. And by feeling this way will be indirectly thankful to you. This can be your gift. You have nothing else to offer. Consider it your last act of kindness in your marriage. Pfft
stillafool Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 I have only my husband to talk to about this and that is not fair to him. So I came here. Why don't you have close female friends?
thummper Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 In this time I had formed a friendship against my own better judgement with MM. I was attracted to him, yes, but I reminded myself there was nothing wrong with noticing guys were attractive. But, though I didn’t know it then or at least never thought on it, there is a difference between someone being just “attractive” and you being “attracted” to someone. It was the latter for me. I didn’t talk about deep things or my spouse because I didn’t want anything to be “questionable”. Slowly though, things got flirty. And I enjoyed it. I felt alive and like the dark cloud over me didn’t matter. And step by step I broke my own rules minus the talking about my spouse. Flirty words turned to dirty words that turned to a touch here, a lingering hand there. That escalated rather quickly to intercourse. And this is why I have always believed that marrieds should NEVER form friendships with people of the opposite sex...EVER. Too often it leads to the very situation you're finding yourself in right now. I have no idea how you're going to get yourself out of this sordid relationship. If you were my wife and I discovered the depth of the betrayal you've sunk to, I'd drop you in a minute. I would never be able to deal with the sickness in my soul, the anger, the disrespect, and the mind movies. How your husband reacts, of course, is up to him after he discovers what you've done, and don't doubt it, in most cases these things are found out in time. I predict you're in for some pretty tough times. Be prepared for the explosion when it comes.
NateGrey Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 Before the massacre gets here to shun you to death I wish to thank you for the effort to put into words the sequence of your fall out of grace. It is rare, especially in here, that a BS can read a story about how a WS reflects upon and understands how s/he got to this stage with such clarity of voice. I thank you for that, because your story helps me probably more than any other WW, to understand better my own WW. I hope you do continue to discuss your particular situation, and I hope to be able to respond, as a BS, to your needs if reconciliation remains on the table for the two of you. Best regards. Just to be clear, this woman cheated and was forgiven. She then cheated again, and the very first thing you do is..thank her for the clarity? Seriously? You sort of didn't say anything about the husband, etc. or how to make it right with him, or well..anything, other then thanking her for being so eloquent and clear about this most recent betrayal. Did I miss something? May I ask why you felt it was necessary to respond with essentially but nothing but a pat on the back? Oh I see, reading your first sentence, you thought people would "massacre" her so you wanted to quickly get in and thank her? I see, I understand now.
fellini Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 (edited) Yes, you missed something. You missed the part where she wrote a post and didn't ask for ANY advice. She put her story out here. And I thanked her for that. I thanked her because the incredible clarity of her story, not her betrayal, as you put it, but the clarity in describing the stages she went through to get to her betrayal, I found exceptionally revealing and important to ME. AND I SAID ALL THAT in my MESSAGE. I didn't pat her on the back for having an affair. I am a BS, and made that clear too. I thanked her for helping me to understand my WW, and I SAID THAT TOO. I didn't ask you to come in here and berate ME for having an opinion about this woman's story. I offered her ZERO advice because she didn't ask for any. I will never be made to feel badly for thanking her for her initial post because it resonated with my own WW and the trauma she caused me with her affair. This OP does not know my WW, and what she has said allows me to begin to believe my WW in a way I haven't for two friggin years post DDAY. I will not be made to feel bad by people like you when someone has helped me immeasurably to get past my own pain and doubts. I hope never to have to respond to you again. Just to be clear, this woman cheated and was forgiven. She then cheated again, and the very first thing you do is..thank her for the clarity? Seriously? You sort of didn't say anything about the husband, etc. or how to make it right with him, or well..anything, other then thanking her for being so eloquent and clear about this most recent betrayal. Did I miss something? May I ask why you felt it was necessary to respond with essentially but nothing but a pat on the back? Oh I see, reading your first sentence, you thought people would "massacre" her so you wanted to quickly get in and thank her? I see, I understand now. Edited December 10, 2014 by fellini 2
NateGrey Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 You know, for a guy typing words in caps and bolding his words, and talking about what he did or did not say in his post, you sure missed the part where I never said you should feel bad. I mean seriously..well, no, not seriously, it's hard to take you serious given the way you just reacted to this. You are being "berated"? Really? Don't cheapen the word berate by using it wrong. Also, guy, she doesn't need to ask for advice. She cheated, was forgiven, and cheated again. She needs advice whether she realizes it or not. But hey, why not another gross overreaction?
Selfish Posted December 10, 2014 Posted December 10, 2014 OP, I am sorry you are in such a bad place. I don't have much to add really except to say I agree with silveron and BH. Shame and self loathing are dragging you down and you need to get past that. I know as a fWS that it is hard to do. The shame and self loathing can either make you not accept accountability and stay in denial because you can't handle it. Or you don't rise above it and rather wallow in it. And of course if you need help reach out for it. Good luck. 4
violet1 Posted December 11, 2014 Posted December 11, 2014 Oh goodness! I don't have a lot to say other than I've been where you're at. The one thing that stood out the most from your posts is calling yourself "damaged goods". I used to say the same about myself. Our therapist told me that as long as I see myself that way, I will be incapable of making healthy decisions. I can see that's where you're at. If something is broken and damaged that means it can't be fixed or improved. That's simply not true. Our minds are much too powerful to not be capable of change. You can come out of this mess as a strong and healthy woman, but you need to change your thinking first. I know you didn't ask for advice, but sorry I just can't help myself. I think you need to decide if you truly want to stay married or not. If you do then you need to cut ties completely with the XMM. You state that your husband doesn't want you to throw in the towel, right? Isn't continuing to talk to the MM when you know it's hurting your husband throwing in the towel in a sense? I wish you luck, but your posts concern me. You keep cutting yourself down and that's not going to help you get through this. P.S. I'm also a FWW who was caught. I idiotically broke NC two months after D Day. I know how horrible you feel, but continuing to converse with the MM is obviously not making you feel any better. STOP being selfish and destructive. If you aren't (I won't say can't because it's possible) willing to do that, let your husband go. I'll end this now because it looks like I had more to say than I thought. Good luck! 2
NateGrey Posted December 11, 2014 Posted December 11, 2014 Also just to be clear, OP, does your H know you have once again taken up with another man? If not, when do you plan to do the right thing and inform him?
Author Noirek Posted December 11, 2014 Author Posted December 11, 2014 Why don't you have close female friends? My two closest friends moved away and have not felt the need to keep in touch. I have female friends. Just none I could talk to this about.
Author Noirek Posted December 11, 2014 Author Posted December 11, 2014 And this is why I have always believed that marrieds should NEVER form friendships with people of the opposite sex...EVER. Too often it leads to the very situation you're finding yourself in right now. I have no idea how you're going to get yourself out of this sordid relationship. If you were my wife and I discovered the depth of the betrayal you've sunk to, I'd drop you in a minute. I would never be able to deal with the sickness in my soul, the anger, the disrespect, and the mind movies. How your husband reacts, of course, is up to him after he discovers what you've done, and don't doubt it, in most cases these things are found out in time. I predict you're in for some pretty tough times. Be prepared for the explosion when it comes. I don't know how I am not being clear but he does know.
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