Tips for getting over an exit affair by now ex-wife

[Realist3]

Yes. But part of what is so hard is understanding how someone could simply walk away from almost 20 years of marriage without really even talking to me to see if we could figure out something that could make it better.

 

She basically said, "I tried to keep it going on my own, without talking to you for so long, that I just burned myself out, and now I'm burned out and can't try anymore. It's not your fault, it just is what it is."

 

Because she came to grips in her own mind that no matter what you would not be/could not be what she needed. That is not your fault. She realized she could not remold you into what she needed so she set herself and you free.

 

She knows she is not going to change you into the person she wants so what is the point of trying? You are who you are, and she is who she is. You grew apart. That happens all of the time.

[Frogger]

Because she came to grips in her own mind that no matter what you would not be/could not be what she needed. That is not your fault. She realized she could not remold you into what she needed so she set herself and you free.

 

She knows she is not going to change you into the person she wants so what is the point of trying? You are who you are, and she is who she is. You grew apart. That happens all of the time.

 

I'm not sure I can really agree with this. It is a bit too mercenary for me, and ignores the fact that I saw no communication from her on what she actually needed. She did not let me in to her process. She did it all on her own. And that, to me, is exactly the opposite of what you should do with respect to a marriage.

 

Honestly, I think that marriage also has to be about reasonable compromise and flexibility. You don't get to decide that your "need" is now a hot young woman, and well, your wife can't be that person, so what is the point of trying, on to the hot young woman.

 

There needs to be some level of emotional maturity and commitment, and at least some effort to maintain a common ground through communication. Otherwise, all that you really have is a working relationship until you find something shiny that entertains you more.

 

I understand that I may be defensive on this because it has obviously directly affected me in a devastating way. But she frankly has not even been able to articulately communicate with me what she even "needs." It does not even feel like she has really attempted to communicate that to me.

 

In any event, I'm going sideways here, as we are now debating what led to this, as opposed to how to get over it and move on. I am going to have a hard time accepting that getting over it means accepting that her needs changed so she left. Because if that is the case, I'm not sure how I could really trust anyone in a relationship ever again. Why won't their needs change too? How can I ever believe, even if they say they are happy, that they are not also sandbagging me?

Edited November 19, 2014 by Frogger

[10thengineerharrison]

Before reading the rest of that post:

 

This is always difficult to know which way you should lean. Half the articles on the internet seem to imply that affairs, while not ideal, are semi-acceptable because they are signs that there are problems in the marriage. The other half read as you said, that while the marriage problems are 50/50, an affair is always unacceptable and 100% on the person having the affair.

 

We can save you a lot of time right here. Throw away any and all literature and delete all bookmarks on the computer that are about the first half of the articles you've read. They're completely full of shyte.

 

-10th Engineer Harrison.

[Ronni_W]

But she frankly has not even been able to articulately communicate with me what she even "needs." It does not even feel like she has really attempted to communicate that to me.

Frogger, that was the case for me at the end of my own marriage. I simply did not have the self-awareness and emotional intelligence or fluency, to explain to my now-ex-husband why I was leaving a, from the outside, perfectly sane and reasonable marriage, and a perfectly lovely man. There was not a person in our circle, who was not completely shocked. In fact, I only found out afterwards, that many had held us up as some sort of "ideal couple". But, like your wife, I just needed to leave...and I really did not have words to explain my feelings around that.

 

And I can only put it into words now, because I did a HELLUVA lot of work and made a HELLUVA lot of effort to find out what those feelings were and what are the best words to describe the feelings. (If your wife won't make the same kinds of efforts, then she likely won't ever be able to be any more clear about it, even in her own head and heart.)

In any event, I'm going sideways here, as we are now debating what led to this, as opposed to how to get over it and move on.

PART of being able to move on is really coming to terms with the role that you played in the demise of your marriage, Frogger. Our first instinct - from self-preservation, perhaps? - is to put it all on the "other". I started out like that. Went to therapists with the question, "Help me to understand my (ex) husband. PLEASE!!!"

Until one very wise and kind (biatch of a) counselor, said to me, "It is YOU that you need to understand, dear Ronni. Not your husband. HE has nothing to do with it." To which I, of course, took great offense and stormed out of her stupid bloody office, stupid bloody biatch .

I am going to have a hard time accepting that getting over it means accepting that her needs changed so she left. Because if that is the case, I'm not sure how I could really trust anyone in a relationship ever again. Why won't their needs change too? How can I ever believe, even if they say they are happy, that they are not also sandbagging me?

Our needs are SUPPOSED to change, over time. We are SUPPOSED to fulfill one need, one goal, one aspiration in life...and then move forward/upward to the next.

I would say that the problem is lack of self-awareness of our changing needs, and lack of emotional intelligence and fluency to be able to express these to our self, our partner, our friends and the world at large.

 

Part of the bigger problem also being that, when we do change, and even if we do have all that awareness and communication skills, people don't like it when we change...and especially not when they are perfectly happy with the status quo.

 

Have I started to ramble? Perhaps so. So, I shall stop talking. But do feel free to ask any follow-up questions. I'd be happy to try to answer them as best I can.

[Realist3]

I'm not sure I can really agree with this. It is a bit too mercenary for me, and ignores the fact that I saw no communication from her on what she actually needed. She did not let me in to her process. She did it all on her own. And that, to me, is exactly the opposite of what you should do with respect to a marriage.

 

Honestly, I think that marriage also has to be about reasonable compromise and flexibility. You don't get to decide that your "need" is now a hot young woman, and well, your wife can't be that person, so what is the point of trying, on to the hot young woman.

 

There needs to be some level of emotional maturity and commitment, and at least some effort to maintain a common ground through communication. Otherwise, all that you really have is a working relationship until you find something shiny that entertains you more.

 

I understand that I may be defensive on this because it has obviously directly affected me in a devastating way. But she frankly has not even been able to articulately communicate with me what she even "needs." It does not even feel like she has really attempted to communicate that to me.

 

In any event, I'm going sideways here, as we are now debating what led to this, as opposed to how to get over it and move on. I am going to have a hard time accepting that getting over it means accepting that her needs changed so she left. Because if that is the case, I'm not sure how I could really trust anyone in a relationship ever again. Why won't their needs change too? How can I ever believe, even if they say they are happy, that they are not also sandbagging me?

 

 

She didn't let you in because she knew she couldn't change you to meet her criteria, nor did she have the desire to have you make the attempt.

[Realist3]

"I want/need you to be someone I know you can't ever be." That is a cruel reality, so why dig the knife even deeper?

[Frogger]

PART of being able to move on is really coming to terms with the role that you played in the demise of your marriage, Frogger. Our first instinct - from self-preservation, perhaps? - is to put it all on the "other". I started out like that. Went to therapists with the question, "Help me to understand my (ex) husband. PLEASE!!!"

Until one very wise and kind (biatch of a) counselor, said to me, "It is YOU that you need to understand, dear Ronni. Not your husband. HE has nothing to do with it." To which I, of course, took great offense and stormed out of her stupid bloody office, stupid bloody biatch .

 

Actually, it is kind of interesting. My therapist has said that I have internalized way too much of this, and put too much blame on myself. He has essentially told me that he is happy to see me being more critical, because her behavior really wasn't justifiable or fair. That no, no marriage is perfect from either side, and each side has things they could have done better, but yes, sometimes one of the partners in the marriage really just doesn't behave very well.

 

I did not go through the normal initial "anger" phase. Instead, I absorbed everything that she said, and assumed that I must have been a horrible, disgusting person to **** something up that was so incredibly important to me. I was devastated, and immediately began searching for all the ways that I screwed up.

 

I tend to internalize a ton of things in life as being my fault. It is, to some degree, my default mode. Because I know the tendency is to not want to take blame, I almost go in the opposite direction, and become overly critical of myself even in the face of some fairly bad acts by others.

 

When we saw the marital counselor, at the end of the first session he listened to her issues and said, "Those do not seem to be anywhere near insurmountable. This certainly seems resolvable." At the beginning of the second session, he shifted into how to have a clean breakup mode. I later asked him privately why he shifted course so suddenly, when he originally said the issues did not seem to be material or insurmountable. He said that when he said it certainly seemed resolvable, the look on her face told him that she had no desire whatsoever to try to resolve anything.

 

I mean, the response from most of my friends and family that I have talked to has been, "Why aren't you more pissed off/angry with her about this? She treated you like ****?"

 

I was just talking with a friend last night who literally said, "I have been holding my tongue, because I know you care about her, were married to her, and I did not want to bash her. But frankly, you should not want her back. She has treated you very badly here, without much motivation for it."

 

Yes, some of that is because they are friends and family, and they are going to support me, and they have mostly heard my version of the story. But since the breakup has been "amircable," she has also talked to a number of them as well, so it is not like they are only hearing my side. Yet they all say as well, "I have no idea what she is doing, or why she is doing this."

 

But now again, I realized that I'm hashing through whether this was justified or not, whether I should have known, who was right and who was wrong. And although I'm sure I will keep falling back into that mode over and over again, this is exactly what I mentally know I need to move away from. I need to figure out how to move on, not to replay the movie over and over in my head for months and years.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Frogger

[Ronni_W]

"I want/need you to be someone I know you can't ever be." That is a cruel reality, so why dig the knife even deeper?

This is so completely true and accurate. Yet it also suggests an insight or awareness in the person having such a thought, that is not necessarily - I would even say, not usually present - in the person who is ending any long-term relationship/marriage.

 

The other half of that - or perhaps not even a connected or interdependent reality is: "I can't be all that I want to be - and/or know that I can be - if I stay with this life that I find myself in, right now."

Sometimes a job or career change might do it; but plenty of times it is the people in one's sphere, that are creating the real or perceived limitations to the kind of 'expansion of self' that leads to the real or perceived need of having to let go specific relationships.

 

It can be, sometimes, a subconscious or unconscious or 'soul' feeling, for which there are no words in the moment...just a very compelling feeling.

[Frogger]

This is so completely true and accurate. Yet it also suggests an insight or awareness in the person having such a thought, that is not necessarily - I would even say, not usually present - in the person who is ending any long-term relationship/marriage.

 

The other half of that - or perhaps not even a connected or interdependent reality is: "I can't be all that I want to be - and/or know that I can be - if I stay with this life that I find myself in, right now."

Sometimes a job or career change might do it; but plenty of times it is the people in one's sphere, that are creating the real or perceived limitations to the kind of 'expansion of self' that leads to the real or perceived need of having to let go specific relationships.

 

It can be, sometimes, a subconscious or unconscious or 'soul' feeling, for which there are no words in the moment...just a very compelling feeling.

 

How do you differentiate those feelings from the "fog" of an affair? Because exactly what you are talking about is also commonly trotted out as the bull**** justification for an affair, the bull**** justification for ending a marriage without really trying, etc.

 

I'm genuinely not trying to be insulting, I am trying to figure it out. Because it seems to me that people very rarely make mistakes in moving on and say, "I'm making a mistake in chasing after this other person/lifestyle/etc." We always create a rationalization for what we are doing, even when it is an immature or unhealthy action. We always say, "This is what I need to grow," or "I'm unhappy with where I am as a person, so this is justified."

 

How do you know when it is real, versus just a poor justification? It almost seems like everyone who has an affair that they regretted (or made other obviously poor life choices) had something like that as a rational explanation in their own mind at the time they made the choice.

 

Perhaps I'm asking the impossible, in asking how we can even trust our own minds in these things?

 

Maybe what I'm trying to say is this. A mid-life crises never feels like a mid-life crises to the person who is going through it. They always think it is justifiable under some circumstances like the above logic, because by definition if they didn't, they wouldn't be doing it.

[10thengineerharrison]

Because she came to grips in her own mind that no matter what you would not be/could not be what she needed. That is not your fault. She realized she could not remold you into what she needed so she set herself and you free.

 

She did, but unethically by having an affair and lying. In all probability, her "coming to grips in her own mind" amounted to nothing but mental masturbation to justify her affair. She gave her "needs" a reality that they really likely never had.

 

She knows she is not going to change you into the person she wants so what is the point of trying? You are who you are, and she is who she is. You grew apart. That happens all of the time.

 

I don't think it happens like this any of the time. Again, because any "problems" in the marriage are mushroomed all out of proportion by the one with the grievance who won't address them with integrity.

 

-10th Engineer Harrison

[10thengineerharrison]

In any event, I'm going sideways here, as we are now debating what led to this, as opposed to how to get over it and move on. I am going to have a hard time accepting that getting over it means accepting that her needs changed so she left. Because if that is the case, I'm not sure how I could really trust anyone in a relationship ever again. Why won't their needs change too? How can I ever believe, even if they say they are happy, that they are not also sandbagging me?

 

Your post was great until this paragraph, where you got back to dwelling on why she did what she did.

 

You will get to a point where you won't care about the whys, as they never are going to make any real sense anyway. When you get there, you will find yourself all goosebumpy with excitement for the future, and you won't be thinking about her at all when you feel that excitement.

 

Your life has always been about you, your values and integrity. Live those to your fullest as a role model for your kids. Help them grow with similar values. You won't even have to explain to them why your exW's behavior is selfish and wrong. They'll have the tools to figure it out for themselves.

 

-10th Engineer Harrison

[Frogger]

And again, not to be rude in any way (because I am primarily to blame for it), but I have realized that I am no longer discussing tips for moving on and becoming a better person myself, but am instead rehashing whether what my ex-wife did was fair or reasonable.

 

Perhaps I need to factor that into my determination on how to move on in some way, but frankly she did what she did. I could spend the next 40 years wound up in an internal debate over whether it was justified, whether I was done wrong, whether she is a terrible person for what she did, etc.

 

But all I will be doing is having that debate, and spending the mental energy on that debate.

 

Unless there is some insight as to how it helps me heal and move forward, it almost seems like exactly the type of wheel spinning that you are supposed to move past in order to regain your balance and healthiness.

 

EDIT: Basically, I think I just retyped what 10thengineerharrison said immediately before me.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Frogger

[oldshirt]

"I want/need you to be someone I know you can't ever be." That is a cruel reality, so why dig the knife even deeper?

 

I don't know how to quote two different posts but these two posts by Realist are probably as good as you are going to get. She didn't tell you what her issues were or what she wanted you to be because it couldn't be done...and really wouldn't be fair to you if it could.

 

Yes it was ****ty of her to just walk out but no more ****ty than trying to change you and transform into something you could never be.

 

At this point her 'why' is really irrelevant. People often use the euphemism of "it's not you, it's me." In this case it really was her and not you. Trust me women are more than happy to point out your faults and try to make you change. The fact that she didn't do any of this is a rock solid example that you didn't do anything wrong and that nothing you could have done or not done would have made any difference.

 

This is why I will go back to my 'dead' analogy. If she got killed in a car wreck on her way home, it would suck and be traumatic and you would have to grieve and then pick up the pieces and move on, but it would have had nothing to do with you and nothing you could have done would have influenced the outcome in any way.

 

Treat it as if she were dead except in matters with the children because she essentially is for all practical purposes.

[oldshirt]

And again, not to be rude in any way (because I am primarily to blame for it), but I have realized that I am no longer discussing tips for moving on and becoming a better person myself, but am instead rehashing whether what my ex-wife did was fair or reasonable.

 

Perhaps I need to factor that into my determination on how to move on in some way, but frankly she did what she did. I could spend the next 40 years wound up in an internal debate over whether it was justified, whether I was done wrong, whether she is a terrible person for what she did, etc.

 

But all I will be doing is having that debate, and spending the mental energy on that debate.

 

Unless there is some insight as to how it helps me heal and move forward, it almost seems like exactly the type of wheel spinning that you are supposed to move past in order to regain your balance and healthiness.

 

EDIT: Basically, I think I just retyped what 10thengineerharrison said immediately before me.

 

You are I were posting at the same time. See my post above, I think I do address moving on. It may not be easy and it may not be what you want to hear, but it is what it is.

[dichotomy]

I can't change you - so let me cheat on you, and leave your ass, and take your money. Yep that will leave you just the same person you have always been. See that's why I am doing all this - so you don't have to change.

[10thengineerharrison]

This is so completely true and accurate. Yet it also suggests an insight or awareness in the person having such a thought, that is not necessarily - I would even say, not usually present - in the person who is ending any long-term relationship/marriage.

 

The other half of that - or perhaps not even a connected or interdependent reality is: "I can't be all that I want to be - and/or know that I can be - if I stay with this life that I find myself in, right now."

Sometimes a job or career change might do it; but plenty of times it is the people in one's sphere, that are creating the real or perceived limitations to the kind of 'expansion of self' that leads to the real or perceived need of having to let go specific relationships.

 

It can be, sometimes, a subconscious or unconscious or 'soul' feeling, for which there are no words in the moment...just a very compelling feeling.

 

I know you and Realist mean well, but all this completely misses the point, or perpetuates the avoidance of it:

 

Nobody is responsible for you happiness but you. Happiness is not getting what you want, it's the ability to truly appreciate what you already have. This woman has a family, but since she believes - as you do - that she has "changed" along with her "needs", and that those are supposed to be met (or stifled) by the people closest to her in order for her to be happy, she's eager to throw all three of them away to look for happiness "elsewhere" rather than within herself. And she may think she's happy doing something else with someone else for a time, but if she has any conscience at all, it won't last for long. And it's not something to be proud of having left behind as her legacy.

 

The best relationships aren't between people who feel they must "complete" one another to be happy, but between two already emotionally healthy individuals who want to share themselves with one another - never losing your individuality or your qualities that attracted you in the first place. Never "expecting" the other to "make you happy."

 

-10th Engineer Harrison

[Ronni_W]

Frogger,

For me, it was the same in that I was taking - or trying to take - all the responsibility for our marriage staying in tact. "What did I do wrong to NOT let him realize that we were in serious trouble?"

 

So, no. You're not to blame or responsible for your wife's actions; as I am not, for the inactions of my former spouse.

But now again, I realized that I'm hashing through whether this was justified or not, whether I should have known, who was right and who was wrong.

Are you okay with it, if each person was equally right and equally wrong? Mostly because it really doesn't matter at all.

 

We have to suspect that, in her mind, she can justify it. Even if the entire rest of the world cannot.

Should you have known? No...not unless you have some kind of magic crystal ball, or a really well-honed ability to read others' minds. (Your intellect ought not be able to fight against this. It ought to know that this is an absolute true statement; a fact.)

 

Is it ever "justifiable" to cheat on one's spouse? Might that not depend on your own intellect's definition of "justifiable"?

Please understand that I'm throwing things out there, for you to consider on a very personal level. I'm NOT saying that cheating is justifiable. And, I'm not saying that it's not. But. People do cheat, so somehow they must be able to justify to themselves. In these cases, it's about whatever is going on in their own minds, however distorted.

 

Did YOU deserve, somehow, to be cheated on? Does not sound like it. Did YOU deserve better? Sounds like it.

 

I know it'll sound too simplistic and stupid. But you need to take control of that movie in your head. You need to DECIDE once and for all that, in this movie, the actions of the one character do NOT reflect on the deservingness, goodness, kindness of the other character. Somebody wrote a bad screenplay, or you got cast in a crappy role.

 

I mean. Your therapist has most likely already told you that you need to change the movie. (I heard that, also.) And the 'how to' of that, is just sheer force of willpower and making decisions. You don't have to take on the crappy role as it saying or being anything at all about your life outside of that role. (If that makes any sense?)

 

Tell yourself, because you know it do be true, that you do not believe or feel that you deserved this; that, from your perspective - which is the only that ought count for you - it was not justifiable.

 

I know how difficult it is. Even though I'm the one who ended my marriage, I was devastated, also. I really had not signed up for getting to a place where I was going to be divorced. Your wife didn't, either. No matter how badly she behaved at the end of it, her vision of marriage to you did not end like this. I feel extremely confident in assuring you.

[Striver]

Few points on what you addressed before:

 

The smugness: Typical for a WS. They tend to have a very jaded, above it all demeanor.

 

Whether her relationship(s) will work out: You're right not to worry about it. Even if the AP doesn't work out, she will probably be with someone else in a LTR. She isn't going to come crawling back, she isn't going to pine for you for the rest of her days.

 

Divorce a fate worse than death? Yeah, I think it probably is. With a deceased spouse you still have some memories, you can probably stay in contact with her in-laws if you wish, probably not financially devastating if you have enough insurance. Divorce is more expensive, you lose more of your world, and a lot of the memories have to be put far away. It stinks.

 

Being an introvert? Let the experience change you. You will likely have a different personality than you had before. You have experienced something that many others never even go through. Kind of like going off to a war - not everyone does it. Don't minimize the fact that you've been through it. I'm an introvert too, but I'm talking to people a lot more, holding my head up higher, making more eye contact. Some of the things that used to be scary, not so scary anymore. Don't worry that you're not some breezy extrovert, you can't be all things to all people. Plenty of women coming out of LTRs and unsure of themselves too.

[Frogger]

You are I were posting at the same time. See my post above, I think I do address moving on. It may not be easy and it may not be what you want to hear, but it is what it is.

 

No, I agree. As I said, my post wasn't made with any hostility. I think you, I, and 10thengineerharrison were essentially saying the same thing. Whatever her reasons were, whether they were right or wrong, eventually becomes beside the point, and you just need to accept the reality that she is gone and move on.

[Ronni_W]

Nobody is responsible for you happiness but you.

That was exactly my point!

And taking responsibility means doing whatever one must...regardless of others' expectations or demands, or beliefs about what is "right" or "wrong" or "justifiable" or "incomprehensible".

 

Not acknowledge changing needs is irresponsible, not responsible.

Staying in a situation that one knows is no longer supporting one's happiness and growth is equally irresponsible.

 

That was my point, 10thengineerharrison. We AGREE on that.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Ronni_W

[Frogger]

Not acknowledge changing needs is irresponsible, not responsible.

Staying in a situation that one knows is no longer supporting one's happiness and growth is equally irresponsible.

 

That was my point, 10thengineerharriso. We AGREE on that.

 

I think my concern with this is that this could lead to too much moral relativism. As I said earlier, simply having "changing needs" or "need for growth" does not justify all actions. If my changing needs are I'm 40, my wife is 40, and I now "need" a 26 year old wife, it's frankly not fair or healthy. And it also does not constitute "growth," no matter how much I try to rationalize it. We make commitments to people. To some degree, we owe it to try to see those commitments through. I think that we shouldn't simply say that whatever we want or need is grounds for dropping whoever is with us at the time as being inconvenient.

 

I have been thinking about the value of discussing these issues. And the way in which I think it can be valuable (as opposed to wheel spinning) is this: though I do not want to beat myself up and be cruel to myself (well, I do tend to do that, but I should not, and I'm trying to be kinder to myself), I also do not want to be the person who blithely assumes that I have done nothing wrong. I want to be fair and kind to myself. But I also do not want to repeat bad behavior or patterns that I may have engaged in during this relationship into the next relationship.

 

And that is what is essentially hard about this type of discussion. Because it is very difficult to determine whether I am internalizing blame unreasonably, versus avoiding acknowledging my role in things that I should try to fix in future relationships. I should not avoid responsibility for my actions in this, but I should also not give in to my tendency to assume too much responsibility and internal criticism for things. People generally want to feel good about themselves and deflect blame, but I also have a tendency to self-criticize to an excessive extent.

 

I also think that perhaps I am trying to rush that discussion a bit too much, and it might be better served for reflection six months from now when I have more time in perspective. Right now, I probably just need to heal up as much as possible from this miserable feeling I have in my chest.

 

The problem is that I am analytical, and I do not do well at trying to put such things off and out of my mind. (I know I'm not alone in that.)

Edited November 19, 2014 by Frogger

[10thengineerharrison]

That was exactly my point!

And taking responsibility means doing whatever one must...regardless of others' expectations or demands, or beliefs about what is "right" or "wrong" or "justifiable" or "incomprehensible".

 

Not acknowledge changing needs is irresponsible, not responsible.

Staying in a situation that one knows is no longer supporting one's happiness and growth is equally irresponsible.

 

That was my point, 10thengineerharrison. We AGREE on that.

 

Sort of.

 

I think you assign far more importance to "needs" than I do. I think they're made up (like most of the material in the MB programs, which bring them up most often). I'm more along the lines of the late Frank Pittman's "Grow Up! How Taking Responsibility can Make You a Happy Adult"

 

After 42 years of working with over 10,000 couples in various states of crisis, I can confirm that divorce has already become increasingly popular and is now considered not just normal but the expected and perhaps inevitable final chapter of marriage. Divorce is considered, by the media, by the TV and newspaper advice giving "experts," and even by many of the professional therapists, particularly the youngest and least experienced ones, to be the treatment of choice for mild depression ("I’m just not happy,") for unpleasantness ("I felt verbally abused") and for sexual attractions to passing strangers or casual friends ("I must not be in love with my mate.") All baby boomers are sure they deserve an ideal partner and when they discover they don’t have one they know they should be free at any moment to dump this imperfect one, put the kids in storage, and go back to the perfect partner collection for another try.

 

...We have to understand what divorce is about. Despite all the research about marriages failing if couples complain, criticize, stonewall or show contempt, I don’t know any couples who don’t do such things some (or most) of the time. But I have rarely seen an established first marriage end in divorce without someone being unfaithful. (Our researchers fail to ask about infidelity, since they tell me it is so nearly universal, it couldn’t possibly be relevant.) Affairs occur in good marriages and bad, and wreck either.

from: pittman.response

 

-10th Engineer Harrison

[Ronni_W]

I think my concern with this is that this could lead to too much moral relativism. As I said earlier, simply having "changing needs" or "need for growth" does not justify all actions. If my changing needs are I'm 40, my wife is 40, and I now "need" a 26 year old wife, it's frankly not fair or healthy.

I think you assign far more importance to "needs" than I do.

Yes, you guys are both right! Thanks for giving me the chance to clarify.

 

I'm NOT talking about...I'm going to call them "superficial" needs. I'm talking about "self-actualization" needs, or "higher" needs, or "spiritual" needs.

NOT lower, or ego, or purely physical-material wants that people define as "needs". I'm NOT talking about "wants" or "desires", and just calling those "needs"

[10thengineerharrison]

Then we DO agree!

 

But leaving because of HIGH needs that you describe would not involve infidelity, for a moral person.

 

-10th Engineer Harrison.

[Frogger]

Yes, you guys are both right! Thanks for giving me the chance to clarify.

 

I'm NOT talking about...I'm going to call them "superficial" needs. I'm talking about "self-actualization" needs, or "higher" needs, or "spiritual" needs.

NOT lower, or ego, or purely physical-material wants that people define as "needs". I'm NOT talking about "wants" or "desires", and just calling those "needs"

 

That certainly seems closer to fair.

 

The one thing I might add is that I still think that one person should not simply decide, on their own, that the other person cannot possibly meet those new needs. Bring them into the process. Tell them what you are feeling, and what you are thinking. Yes, if you tell them, they might not be able to meet those new needs. Perhaps then you may need to find a different way to address things. But it seems a hell of a lot fairer to the other person to try to bring them into the process and see what you can work out together than it does to simply do it all in your own head, decide the other person cannot possibly meet what you want, and then simply move on, all without really involving them or considering them as part of the process.

 

Again, I think that is part of the point of a marriage. You consider the other person. You involve them. If you are growing, you are excited about that and try your utmost to have them appreciate that and grow with you. You try to grow together, and meet each others new needs.

 

You don't just seal it all inside, make your own determination that now they are unable to get you what you want, and move on as a surprise announcement without really having even tried to figure it out with the other person (as opposed to just in your own head).

 

Part of the pain of this is that I feel betrayed by my attempts to let her grow, and I understand that is common with affairs. The spouse uses your own trust and need to trust her against you. I noticed my wife taking a greater interest in make-up, changing her dress, talking with "friends" on social media, etc. in the last six months or a year (basically, a number of things that I now recognize are common affair or affair-about-to-start symptoms). I admit, I had some concerns. But though I occasionally raised them in a light way, I intentionally did not make an issue out of it because I did not want to be the jealous cave-man husband type. I told myself that this was what she needed, that she had friends, was trying out new things, and that I needed to let her explore these things and be herself.

 

I'll admit, I feel like I was repaid for my attempts to let her find herself and not intrude on the process (because of her protestations that nothing was going on, and that she was happy with me) with deception and betrayal. It feels like she intentionally locked me out, and used my trust against me, rather than letting me in and working with me.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Frogger