When it rains it pours

[anna121]

Others have said much of what I think about this latest development but I did want to comment on what you are planning to tell him:

 

Basically what it boils down to is: "if you're willing to move here, to give it a chance, then I will not plan to move first to LA like we had originally talked about. I would consider moving back there with you if we were married, etc. I don't want to uproot my life for no commitment. I'm not willing to move there just to 'see how it works out'. I need more than that. I want to settle down and stay in one place for a long time. I want to get married and have a family very, very soon. I am willing to live with you if we were for certain on that path, but I'm not willing to do that if we aren't sure. I know you have a busy contract now and need to see it to the end. This is a good opportunity to make and save money for a move to CA. I am willing to wait if you give me a timeframe, like within a couple months.

 

 

But I'm not willing to wait more than that. If you can make a decision to do this, or if you are sure that you want to be together, then I would like you to do that. I am here, I am happy with the life I have made for myself. I don't want to move away for a boyfriend. I would be willing to move away for a husband. I want to have a child in the near future and I'm not willing to sacrifice that. I'm also not willing to sacrifice having a real commitment, more than just dating. I'm not willing to wait around for you to get here; if you say you want to do it, do it. I don't want to ever feel like I'm waiting for someone else. I know I could do it myself, and not wait for you. But it doesn't feel right, and I've spent a LOT of time thinking about it, talking about it, writing about it, etc. And I've come to a decision. If, at the end of this current contract you have not and are not making any moves... then I am not willing to wait for you anymore. It isn't fair to me, since it is not serving my goal. This is the hardest part for me to say, but I have to. I do love you but if you aren't willing to get out here and take action, I need to make myself available to someone else who is available, in my city, and who is as serious about settling down as I am. There are other opportunities here for me instead of waiting for you. And I'm not willing to wait indefinitely. I love you a lot, but it needs to be you and it needs to be soon. I'm scared that this may end me up alone. I'm scared this will push you away and you will give up and date someone closer to your age and in your city who doesn't want kids or marriage like I do. And as much as that scares me, I would be ok with it if that is what you choose. Because I know what I want and I'm not willing to compromise on it. I want to live in CA. If I came to LA I would want to get back to CA as fast as possible. I would be moving there as a means to an end, not because I really want to live in New Orleans. You are different in that way. You love CA and you talk about living here. I know you love it more than I love it there, so please get here. I hope you do, and very soon."

 

With respect, I find this quite confusing on where you are actually willing to live. You are saying you would "consider moving" for a H rather than a boyfriend, but also that you want to stay in a place "for a very long time" that you "want to live in CA" and would be trying to get back there "as fast as possible."

 

I think it's pretty clear that you are NOT into going to LA (at least, not now) and I wonder if you think it softens the blow to hold it out as a possibility for you guys as a married couple. I think it just muddies the waters and I strongly urge you to go with a "CA or bust" message. At least at this point.

 

Second, the part about making yourself available to other people is really, really cold. I would be devastated if someone I loved said that to me, in this context, while proposing the only way forward for our future. If you care about his feelings, don't do it. Believe me, it will be implied.

[No_Go]

Ok Venus, I understand what you mean. And no, I wouldn't have waited indefinitely with a long-distance boyfriend. That's not an unreasonable expectation, it is definitely NOT 'princess-y' - closing the distance or ending the RL.

 

But IMO it is something that you need to work on TOGETHER - now that he offered moving, you should be acting hard to help him, not giving him ultimatums. You can start looking for affordable places for him, do viewings, start a savings fund that will contribute for his moving expenses, start talking to people that work in his field if you (or your friends/family) know any. The above will actually HELP him come to the decision to move asap, the ultimatums... not so much. That's where I sensed the 'princess-y vibe' - you expect him to move without you lifting a finger, another way round - you heck expected him to physically drive with you, contribute his time and money, what not, So it IS double standard. I hope I'm not offending you, but think about it... re-read your posts and you'll see I have a point here.

 

The other thing that you must never say if you want to keep this RL is that you'll start looking for other men - I'm referring to this quote: 'I do love you but if you aren't willing to get out here and take action, I need to make myself available to someone else who is available, in my city, and who is as serious about settling down as I am. There are other opportunities here for me instead of waiting for you'. That's a downright DANGEROUS approach - he may take it literally and believe you'll cheat on him (and leave you respectively), or try to show you that he has better options as well and start cheating on you. Never go there. Male ego is fragile. This is an explicit provocation that just screams for trouble.

 

I think just make sure he understand that you work WITH him on the move, you are doing your best with your time, money, resources etc to support his move - and you'll probably have him over faster than with ultimatums.

 

And another thing: if you want to live in CA, don't even say the part you'll go to LA if you marry him - you're giving conflicting information that way. Just try to make life for BOTH possible in CA.

 

Well, No Go, I don't mean it in a selfish, "princess-y" demanding or cruel way. I can't help how I feel. Would YOU wait another year for a long distance boyfriend who has been talking about his desire and interest to move to CA since you met (a year ago)? Would YOU wait indefinitely if he said 'don't worry about coming here first, I will come to you'. I mean, I know how you feel; you would move there. I get it, and as you know I was going over all the details endlessly, it was keeping me up at night... thinking how I would live out there. I talked to recruiters in my field, I contacted Airbnb for a monthly rental, I applied for a couple jobs. I started looking (and just bought yesterday) a car that would move me across the country safely and with some of my belongings in tow. I'm just trying to say that if he is saying (and he just did) that he would like to come here and it wouldn't make sense for me to move out there first, just to come back soon after, and lose my place, job, etc... then I mean, that's great. If that is what he wants to do, I am willing to be here and support his decisions. What I'm trying to say is I don't want to wait for much longer. Some concrete action needs to take place. I was going to do it, now I feel it is his move since he has said he would do it.

 

 

As far as your comment about "asking him" to leave his family, etc... Dude. It goes both ways. In effect, you can just as easily say he would be "Asking me" to leave my job, family, friends, etc. Just the same. No one is ASKING anyone to give up or leave anything. There is no demanding going on here. I was ready to go there. He said he would like to come here. So my position is that is wonderful, please do, I am looking forward to it, I support your decision, you can stay with me if you need to for under a month until you get settled, etc.

I think the difference is, he actually wants to live in CA, and I only considered moving to LA to see if the relationship would progress living in the same city. Do you understand? I would be moving there just for him/our relationship. Not for me. If he moved here I think it would be much more for him, and me, and the relationship.

 

We are different, you and I in our opinions on this. I really can't help what I feel. If he hadn't said any of this, I'm not sure I'd be feeling the same right now.

 

All I am trying to say is (with no demands or bad intentions) is that I would LOVE if he would come here as quickly as possible, since that is what he said he wanted to do. Talk is talk, so if his actions aren't following his words in a REASONABLE amount of time from now; meaning like over the next 2-3 months, tops, then I need to walk away. I'm ok with that. I don't want to. It breaks my heart. But I'm willing to do it if nothing progresses. I get so discouraged that here we are a year later and the plans haven't materialized, and have changed for that matter.

 

I can't predict if this relationship is done or that the way I feel and what I say to him will end the relationship. I am working with what I know, and what I feel. I'm not trying to be a bitch or a princess or demand things from him or ask him to leave anything. We're not victims. We're in charge of our own decisions. And if I were to move there, that would be MY decision. If he wants to move here, that is HIS decision.

 

And his aging father and two kids DO compare to my aging parents, stable job, condo by the ocean and my furniture that I picked out carefully and bought with my savings and pieced together over time. It's the same. Both his priorities AND mine are similarly important to each of us. You can't compare the two, and I don't.

[lana-banana]

Some questions, now that I'm not hung up on the engagement-that-isn't thing:

 

1) What is with the "I love California but Louisiana would be okay" talk? Isn't he moving out to you? Why is that even a matter of consideration unless this is all far less concrete than you've suggested?

 

2) This is basically impossible during the holidays, but can you guys try to carve out some more one-on-one time? I went back over this thread and saw that of the few visits you've had, the MAJORITY involved spending ample time with each other's families. Now that he's likely to move up here with his family that may well continue. It's just clear that you guys have spent precious little time together, by yourselves, like a normal couple.

 

3) If you are dead set on staying here and having at least one child, are you sure that a guy in another state (where he may well move back someday due to family) who can't promise anything other than maybe being open to the possibility of a child provided you can afford it is a good fit for you? That seems obvious but if you are so certain of what you want then why not date someone with a much better chance of providing those things?

[Leigh 87]

Venus I hate to be a downer, but at your age, this man is your best shot at having a child.

 

I don't believe that even normal, non crazy attractive women just easily meet a great match and life partner very often!

 

If you leave him, then just how soon do you think that you would meet the love of your life?

 

I am sure you would meet him soon enough. But at 35 plus, it is so risky and a lot more difficult to conceive; can you afford IVF?

 

SURE we all know women who fell pregnant at 40; they are the minority.

 

Starting over again is not necessary the fastest road to being a mum.

[NuevoYorko]

I'm referring to this quote:

 

'I do love you but if you aren't willing to get out here and take action, I need to make myself available to someone else who is available, in my city, and who is as serious about settling down as I am. There are other opportunities here for me instead of waiting for you'.

 

That's a downright DANGEROUS approach - he may take it literally and believe you'll cheat on him (and leave you respectively), or try to show you that he has better options as well and start cheating on you. Never go there. Male ego is fragile. This is an explicit provocation that just screams for trouble.

 

A HUGE provocation. If I were in his shoes, the possibility of cheating wouldn't be on my mind; the sense of being emotionally blackmailed would be.

 

Why the threats, Venus? He knows all about your timeline and requirements by now. I think it's time to give him a chance to act on them, or not, of his own accord.

 

 

In any case, I wish you the best of luck, I sincerely do. I hope the next time we hear from you, you have a big old rock on your finger and you prove some of us totally wrong.

[venusishername]

I think it's pretty clear that you are NOT into going to LA (at least, not now) and I wonder if you think it softens the blow to hold it out as a possibility for you guys as a married couple. I think it just muddies the waters and I strongly urge you to go with a "CA or bust" message. At least at this point.

Maybe so. I know that there is a possibility that he would maybe want to return to LA in the future so I guess I would be open to it as a married couple, if that happened. But you're right, it would confuse things if I mentioned that. CA or bust!! I may be biased but it is better here

 

Second, the part about making yourself available to other people is really, really cold. I would be devastated if someone I loved said that to me, in this context, while proposing the only way forward for our future. If you care about his feelings, don't do it. Believe me, it will be implied.

I don't think I would say it out loud. I was just writing out my thoughts as if I were going to tell him how I was feeling. Ultimately, my point would be that it isn't fair to either one of us to continue long distance and drag this out any longer.

Some questions, now that I'm not hung up on the engagement-that-isn't thing:

 

1) What is with the "I love California but Louisiana would be okay" talk? Isn't he moving out to you? Why is that even a matter of consideration unless this is all far less concrete than you've suggested?

 

2) This is basically impossible during the holidays, but can you guys try to carve out some more one-on-one time? I went back over this thread and saw that of the few visits you've had, the MAJORITY involved spending ample time with each other's families. Now that he's likely to move up here with his family that may well continue. It's just clear that you guys have spent precious little time together, by yourselves, like a normal couple.

 

3) If you are dead set on staying here and having at least one child, are you sure that a guy in another state (where he may well move back someday due to family) who can't promise anything other than maybe being open to the possibility of a child provided you can afford it is a good fit for you? That seems obvious but if you are so certain of what you want then why not date someone with a much better chance of providing those things?

Good points, Lana, as always...

1. See my reply to Anna above. I think it has been clear that if we were married then I would be much more comfortable and likely to move. I'm just saying that in the future if we were married, I would consider going back to LA if the circumstances required it, etc. Can't see why but considering he's from there and has a daughter and family there....

 

 

On that note, you have mentioned that he seems to talk about marriage and rings when it was linked to me moving there, or just pillow talk.. but that has still been the case since he has been talking to move here. He's still talking about it, it wasn't a passing thought... when he was here a few weeks ago he asked my ring size. After and during our visit, he referred to me as his future wife, he will say things like "you will make me a good wife", he asked if his female friend who I know could be a bridesmaid since she was there when we met, I mean, I don't think he's being manipulative or insincere or trying to trick me by saying these things. I think he's seriously has been considering it and it seems to me to be leading to that. I mean, sure, some people say things and never deliver, but I've never once dated anyone who said the things he does to me. I could be cynical and think he was trying to manipulate me or said it to all the girls, but I don't believe that.

 

 

2. Last time he was here we spent the majority of the time alone, happened to see his one cousin and her husband on the drive down for about 2 hours. He is planning again to come for Xmas, of course Xmas Eve and Xmas day will be family time. Yes, we will have time alone too. I don't think being a normal couple is being alone together all the time you spend. But yes, we will have one on one. I also like being part of his family, and he will be meeting my immediate family on Xmas. He has already met my parents, but now will be cousins, aunts uncle, brother, etc.

 

 

3. Well, I mean... sure... I could end this LDR and try and find someone in my own city but I have already dated (a LOT) and never had luck or nothing that lasted. I could risk it all by ending the relationship and being alone... to see if I could possibly find someone and fall in love and vice versa and who I have the connection I do with my bf, and who treats me as well as he does... sure, I could try. But the risk factor seems pretty high. Not sure that would be smart at this point... I kind of have to agree with Leigh....

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth, right? (I dated a guy who used to say that)!

 

Venus I hate to be a downer, but at your age, this man is your best shot at having a child.

 

I don't believe that even normal, non crazy attractive women just easily meet a great match and life partner very often!

 

If you leave him, then just how soon do you think that you would meet the love of your life?

 

I am sure you would meet him soon enough. But at 35 plus, it is so risky and a lot more difficult to conceive; can you afford IVF?

 

SURE we all know women who fell pregnant at 40; they are the minority.

 

Starting over again is not necessary the fastest road to being a mum.

I agree with you, Leigh. And no, I'm not doing IVF. If I happen to find myself still single, or divorced, and childless after 35-40, I would probably adopt a child. I don't want to be a single mom. I would rather NOT have kids if I wasn't married. I can't say later in life how I would feel. I always thought if I didn't get married or have my own children I might adopt.

Like Lana was saying... yeah, starting over seems foolish at this point. I mean, unless there was something that changed, I do think he's willing and wants to offer what I am looking for, in many ways...

unless that changes, I wouldn't want to end the relationship and hope I'd find someone else.

 

 

 

A HUGE provocation. If I were in his shoes, the possibility of cheating wouldn't be on my mind; the sense of being emotionally blackmailed would be.

 

Why the threats, Venus? He knows all about your timeline and requirements by now. I think it's time to give him a chance to act on them, or not, of his own accord.

 

 

In any case, I wish you the best of luck, I sincerely do. I hope the next time we hear from you, you have a big old rock on your finger and you prove some of us totally wrong.

 

 

I'm not trying to blackmail him or manipulate him. I never said that to him and I won't. I agree that he knows all about my timeline and requirements by now. I think it's time to give him a chance to act on them, or not, of his own accord. Could not agree more. The ball is in his court, I would like to give him a chance to act on it now.

 

 

He still talks about the plans to move to CA, so it seems as though his intentions are in the right place....He is working a lot lately, which is great, overtime, and has been consistent in his trips and plans to come see me since I can't take any more time off now. I really appreciate all his efforts and I tell him that. He's done a lot for me and this relationship. I don't doubt he will continue. We will see what happens now.

 

 

On another note, I have talked to several girlfriends who have recently been treated like **** by their boyfriends. I see some of my friends very unhappy, 'engaged' but living together for years and years, while all their friends are getting married and having kids. I talked to a very good friend the other day who was dating a man with a serious gambling problem who manipulated her for her money and tried to mooch off her efforts to buy a home. Another friend just told me her LDR that she's been madly in love with physically abused her on his first trip out to CA since March and she just dropped him off at the airport today. It makes me realize that although my bf sure isn't perfect, he treats me like gold, near or far. He would NEVER do anything to hurt me or disrespect me... well, because he respects me and values me. Of course that isn't asking too much and should be the norm with all relationships, but I just mean to say that I feel safe and secure with him and he values and supports my feelings and is like my rock... it really should be that way. It seems so easy, we don't fight... we have butted heads due to my/his impatience and my insecurities, but we don't fight or have stupid petty drama. I see it all around me, on LS, and I used to live it in my own relationships. It is refreshing to have an easy relationship with a man who treats me so well; that is very hard to want to give up....even if we are long distance... even though we are not yet living in the same city... even if he's only 'open' to having another child... I mean, I see what's in front of me, and until I see something else, I'm going to stay with this guy.

 

 

In the end, I want to give this the best chance possible. If he wants to come to me first, so be it. Wonderful. I am happier here and not willing to leave CA for a 'maybe this will work out'. If that is our attitude, it just doesn't feel right. It's 'I want this to work out, so what do we need to do to make it work?' There's a big difference between the two, the commitment factor.

[lana-banana]

I am happier here and not willing to leave CA for a 'maybe this will work out'. If that is our attitude, it just doesn't feel right. It's 'I want this to work out, so what do we need to do to make it work?' There's a big difference between the two, the commitment factor.

 

I agree, but from this angle it doesn't appear you're actually doing anything to make it work. What are you doing to help make it a reality? The ball cannot be entirely in his court. Yet it sounds like you're most comfortable just waiting for him to do everything.

 

It's a bit frustrating when he talks so much and does so little. You use all the wedding talk as evidence of his more serious intentions. Venus, that's just talk, not action. And the worst part is he's been crystal clear that a proposal is NOT about his desire to marry you, but just the next step to determining compatibility. At this point you know an engagement isn't coming because he really wants to be engaged; he's doing it because you have insisted on it. So it's just another step for him. Of course he has no problem talking about rings and whatnot---he is taking this much less seriously than you are.

 

I'm still mad that your circumstances are such that he's effectively robbed you of a traditional engagement, especially when in the past you've indicated that tradition means so much to you. Once he proposes you won't have a set wedding date, won't know how long it takes before he actually feels ready to get married, if he's even serious about going through with it. (Before you say anything, talking about theoretical bridesmaids does not mean he intends to marry you!) You keep talking about how you need a firm commitment, but he doesn't see engagement as a very firm commitment while you're still trying to get to know each other. And I don't think he's wrong for that. It just seems like you're getting the raw end of the deal. After more than a hundred pages it just kills me to see someone who deserves so much end up in a situation like this. Your proposal should be a moment of hysterical tears and ecstatic happiness,* not wondering what you'll have to do to really convince him to marry you and just how long it will take before he's truly ready.

 

It would also do you good to spend time with friends in healthy relationships. You keep talking about your friends who are unhappy, but what about the happy ones? What about the people who are doing well and thriving with partners they love? You can always find someone whose relationship is worse than yours. LoveShack is also not a barometer of anything; this is a highly self-selective group of individuals and most (regardless of where they are now) joined because they weren't in happy relationships or needed a sounding board. Your friends and family who are in happy relationships are in a much better place to offer good counsel and perspective on your own situation.

 

I think NuevoYorko's idea to ask him what he wants for his ideal life is a brilliant one. What does he really need in his future? What matters most to him? What matters least? What are his top life goals? You have to see just how much you're on the same page.

 

* = it doesn't have to involve free champagne for everyone else in sight, but ours did and I have no regrets

[introverted1]

Great words of advice from LB, as usual.

 

Venus, one of the things that strikes me is that you are very clear about your needs and wants -- no living together before marriage, quick engagement and marriage, baby in the next year or so, etc. What are HIS needs/wants? Other than wanting a two-year engagement (which you were quick to downplay), we have not heard anything of what his goals are for a happy relationship. What are his dreams and deal-breakers? How does he see the next 5, 10, 20 years of his life unfolding? Either you don't share this information with us or he doesn't share it with you. The latter is somewhat concerning, if true.

[No_Go]

Yeah, that is a glaring red flag. Anybody who get engaged with plans different than just planning a wedding in the next few months... Is giving their guy extra time to try determining compatibility - could be forever

 

Example from my close friend circle: she pestered him to get engaged, he proposed around 2 years of dating her, this was a few years ago... They are still engaged, he moved from their shared home to another state to pursue his business... and she is jaded and bitter.... adn 'engaged'. Oh , they had wedding date at some point, like anything else - they just cancelled it to 'save some money' (aka to give the guy time to 'think')

 

Another example: a coworker - is engaged with a brilliant huge diamond ring... I asked when she received it - 15 (FIFTEEN) years ago. She is 43 now, childless and 'engaged'.

 

Commitment is not in a ring. It should be a symbol, nothing less, nothing more. Commitment comes from the desire to be with somebody and move mountains to be with them if need be.

 

GOther than wanting a two-year engagement (which you were quick to downplay

[Sunkissedpatio]

 

On that note, you have mentioned that he seems to talk about marriage and rings when it was linked to me moving there, or just pillow talk.. but that has still been the case since he has been talking to move here. He's still talking about it, it wasn't a passing thought... when he was here a few weeks ago he asked my ring size. After and during our visit, he referred to me as his future wife, he will say things like "you will make me a good wife", he asked if his female friend who I know could be a bridesmaid since she was there when we met, I mean, I don't think he's being manipulative or insincere or trying to trick me by saying these things. I think he's seriously has been considering it and it seems to me to be leading to that. I mean, sure, some people say things and never deliver, but I've never once dated anyone who said the things he does to me. I could be cynical and think he was trying to manipulate me or said it to all the girls, but I don't believe that.

 

 

In my experience a guy you are in a serious relationship with, who is in love with you and thinking of a future acts exactly as you just described. Whether he is going to pop the question, or ask you to move in with him, or give you a key to his apartment or envisioning kids and being married to you that is how he talks. I've never had a boyfriend put those things out and not come through with an action. Most guys, once you get to know them, are not that complicated, they actually say what they mean.

 

 

He still talks about the plans to move to CA, so it seems as though his intentions are in the right place....He is working a lot lately, which is great, overtime, and has been consistent in his trips and plans to come see me since I can't take any more time off now. I really appreciate all his efforts and I tell him that. He's done a lot for me and this relationship. I don't doubt he will continue. We will see what happens now.

 

What are you doing for him? If you had to take yourself out of this equation and be a by-stander looking in at the two of you and had intel as to how you are conducting this relationship, what would you say as the third party looking in in terms of what you are doing for him? How do you think he sees what you do for him that motivates him to keep moving forward seeing as he is giving up a lot to come and live with you?

 

On another note, I have talked to several girlfriends who have recently been treated like **** by their boyfriends. I see some of my friends very unhappy, 'engaged' but living together for years and years, while all their friends are getting married and having kids. I talked to a very good friend the other day who was dating a man with a serious gambling problem who manipulated her for her money and tried to mooch off her efforts to buy a home. Another friend just told me her LDR that she's been madly in love with physically abused her on his first trip out to CA since March and she just dropped him off at the airport today. It makes me realize that although my bf sure isn't perfect, he treats me like gold, near or far. He would NEVER do anything to hurt me or disrespect me... well, because he respects me and values me. Of course that isn't asking too much and should be the norm with all relationships, but I just mean to say that I feel safe and secure with him and he values and supports my feelings and is like my rock... it really should be that way. It seems so easy, we don't fight... we have butted heads due to my/his impatience and my insecurities, but we don't fight or have stupid petty drama. I see it all around me, on LS, and I used to live it in my own relationships. It is refreshing to have an easy relationship with a man who treats me so well; that is very hard to want to give up....even if we are long distance... even though we are not yet living in the same city... even if he's only 'open' to having another child... I mean, I see what's in front of me, and until I see something else, I'm going to stay with this guy.

 

I know a lot of couples, and have quite a few single female friends. I think your observation is fairly accurate. And I've had this discussion with many of my friends (married and single) and co-workers and we all land in the same place. We see a lot of couples around us struggling one way or another. Relationships are hard, it isn't just a reflection of this board it is a reflection of life and in the modern age and how difficult relationships are. My therapist asked me to come up with one model relationship that I see as healthy, positive relationship. I couldn't even name one. Not ONE.

I did think of one couple from our circle that has two small kids and they outwardly seem very together and happy but then you go on FB and she is posting all "life is great look at us" post and he is always posting inside jabs towards his wife and underhanded comments directed at how much sht he has to put up with or “take my wife please" jokes.

 

So I would think most don't have ideal situations, even if they are getting the rings and or planning the wedding. One of my close g/f's came home to half an empty home after 15 yrs of marriage and a husband sitting a the dining room table telling her "I am leaving you. I am not happy" and they were to the rest of us the best couple! Turned out a year later, she finds out he'd been having an affair for years with some other married friend in the group.

They are now together.

 

That's why my own philosophy is as it is when advising you to take one day at a time. I've been super keen on pushing the notion of not getting ahead of yourself because the moment is all that really matters in the grand scheme of things. And especially in your situation where you don’t have all those face-to-face moments. You are still trying to see how those will go.

 

Are you good together now? Can you see yourself with this person for the long haul? Is this someone you can trust and whom you feel will make a great friend / companion and feel safe with? That's all that matters. That is what we all should be striving for. Forget the wedding or the ring or how he proposes and all that other superficial crap.

 

I've had two engagement rings in my life. One was returned months after because it just didn't feel right and there was a big production in the delivery (a girl’s dream if you will..not mine mind you but a girl’s dream nonetheless) The other is sitting in my dresser drawer tucked away with all the bad memories and hurt of a relationship that started off incredibly well, with incredible compatibility, but took a turn for the worst after life's ugly obstacles got in the way. The proposal happened in a very intimate way and the best way I can imagine given what we had. He really got me and understood what I appreciate and I really got him. And that is the memory I carry with me. Not the fact that I was engaged or how it happened.

 

The novelty of all those big moments wears off quickly and all you are left with is the man in front of you, you better damn be well sure he is the man you want and know you can love.

 

Believe me when I tell you what matters aren't the milestones but the person who is willing to reach them with you in the best way possible.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Sunkissedpatio

[Sunkissedpatio]

Yeah, that is a glaring red flag. Anybody who get engaged with plans different than just planning a wedding in the next few months... Is giving their guy extra time to try determining compatibility - could be forever

 

Example from my close friend circle: she pestered him to get engaged, he proposed around 2 years of dating her, this was a few years ago... They are still engaged, he moved from their shared home to another state to pursue his business... and she is jaded and bitter.... adn 'engaged'. Oh , they had wedding date at some point, like anything else - they just cancelled it to 'save some money' (aka to give the guy time to 'think')

 

Another example: a coworker - is engaged with a brilliant huge diamond ring... I asked when she received it - 15 (FIFTEEN) years ago. She is 43 now, childless and 'engaged'.

Commitment is not in a ring. It should be a symbol, nothing less, nothing more. Commitment comes from the desire to be with somebody and move mountains to be with them if need be.

 

 

This ^^^ 100 times this^^^ Great examples No_Go!

 

Your goal is to be married and having babies with this man that you love and feel is "the one" Not what kind of ring you get, how the engagement will go down or what kind of wedding reception you will have. All that will fall into place and work out as you both plan.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Sunkissedpatio

[lana-banana]

For what it's worth I'm quite sure he's going to propose during this next visit. I'd put good money on it. But I'd also put good money on the possibility of ending up in the absurd situation I described earlier, where you're engaged but still without any concrete plans to end up in the same city. I am worried that you both seem to have drastically different opinions about the importance of engagement, children, and marriage, and that's why it seems like such a good idea to see what his life and relationship goals are.

[venusishername]

I agree, but from this angle it doesn't appear you're actually doing anything to make it work. What are you doing to help make it a reality? The ball cannot be entirely in his court. Yet it sounds like you're most comfortable just waiting for him to do everything.

Well, for one thing I have told him two or three times that I have a contact for a job for him out here but he has yet to take me up on the offer to talk to this person. I've also talked to him about plans for saving money so he can make it out here. But it seems as if it's not much I can do or control when it comes to that so I'm offering my help for a job contact, I've offered him a place to live for up to a month if he needs to, I'm talking to my family members and friends about job connections and loops that he would have to go through and getting their advice and sharing with him. But he hasn't seemed to actually make the move yet. I know things depend on his current job ending, and the job is going well. So he's not able and ready to move anyway until this is over, 3-4 months more or so.... not totally sure. He's not a planner like me but makes things happen even if its procrastinated. It's hard for me to operate like that, so I also get annoyed because I want answers. After he told me he wanted to come here, I kind of gave up control, so to speak. And it's actually nice not to have any more spinning thoughts as to how I'm going to store my furniture and how I'm going to break my lease. I am willing to help in any way I can for him, I'm just completely relieved he would rather move here.

 

It's a bit frustrating when he talks so much and does so little. You use all the wedding talk as evidence of his more serious intentions. Venus, that's just talk, not action. And the worst part is he's been crystal clear that a proposal is NOT about his desire to marry you, but just the next step to determining compatibility. At this point you know an engagement isn't coming because he really wants to be engaged; he's doing it because you have insisted on it. So it's just another step for him. Of course he has no problem talking about rings and whatnot---he is taking this much less seriously than you are.

Has it been crystal clear? Has it ever occurred to you that he may actually want to marry me and not propose just because I said I want to be engaged before we live together, that I want marriage in the near future, etc.? If he was doing it to appease me, that would be a hell of a lot of work to commit to a long distance relationship and all this, moving across the country.

I'm still mad that your circumstances are such that he's effectively robbed you of a traditional engagement, especially when in the past you've indicated that tradition means so much to you. Once he proposes you won't have a set wedding date, won't know how long it takes before he actually feels ready to get married, if he's even serious about going through with it. (Before you say anything, talking about theoretical bridesmaids does not mean he intends to marry you!) You keep talking about how you need a firm commitment, but he doesn't see engagement as a very firm commitment while you're still trying to get to know each other. And I don't think he's wrong for that. It just seems like you're getting the raw end of the deal. After more than a hundred pages it just kills me to see someone who deserves so much end up in a situation like this. Your proposal should be a moment of hysterical tears and ecstatic happiness,* not wondering what you'll have to do to really convince him to marry you and just how long it will take before he's truly ready.

This is just so fatalistic sounding. I don't think I would allow for or even be in that situation. How is he "robbing" me of anything? He hasn't done anything. He hasn't proposed, or even moved here. He's talked about marriage and we have been getting to know each other and he offered me to live there but I think he realized that he loves CA a lot more than LA and so do I. But how is he robbing me of a traditional engagement? I don't have a ring, I'm not engaged to him. Obviously he hints around at the idea but he hasn't pulled the trigger, so I don't feel I'm getting robbed of anything at all. It has been my choice to stay in this relationship and let nature take its course.

 

 

Personally, I think you put way too much importance on the proposal. I am happy for you that yours was spectacular and special but for me, I dunno... I don't need something over the top. For that reason I don't feel I am being robbed of anything by whatever you meant as far as the engagement that isn't.

 

 

In my experience a guy you are in a serious relationship with, who is in love with you and thinking of a future acts exactly as you just described. Whether he is going to pop the question, or ask you to move in with him, or give you a key to his apartment or envisioning kids and being married to you that is how he talks. I've never had a boyfriend put those things out and not come through with an action. Most guys, once you get to know them, are not that complicated, they actually say what they mean.

 

What are you doing for him? If you had to take yourself out of this equation and be a by-stander looking in at the two of you and had intel as to how you are conducting this relationship, what would you say as the third party looking in in terms of what you are doing for him? How do you think he sees what you do for him that motivates him to keep moving forward seeing as he is giving up a lot to come and live with you?

I would say that I am offering my full commitment, devotion, time, energy and plans for the future and a friendship on top of it. I'm offering an emotional support system and my affection and physical attention, plans for and with family and adventures, companionship. He thinks I'm beautiful and desirable and I think other men would and do agree with that, so I guess in a purely physical way I'm offering beauty and sex to him too. Definitely a person who inspires him to be a better man, he told me that. He also thinks I'm a really good, sweet woman and would be a good example for his kids and have good family values and morals.

I'm very domestic too and although it sounds silly, it is true that the fastest way to a man's heart is his stomach, and I'm very into home making, I think that is also an asset that is appealing to him. I could try and think of more....

For what it's worth I'm quite sure he's going to propose during this next visit. I'd put good money on it. But I'd also put good money on the possibility of ending up in the absurd situation I described earlier, where you're engaged but still without any concrete plans to end up in the same city. I am worried that you both seem to have drastically different opinions about the importance of engagement, children, and marriage, and that's why it seems like such a good idea to see what his life and relationship goals are.

 

Do you really think so?? I don't, Lana, after all this. I think that in the future, he probably will but not on this next visit. He still talks about coming here to live, so that's great, at least he hasn't dropped the ball.. I know that's cynical but well, I'll believe it when I see it.

I just don't see him proposing before we live in the same city. However, I do think he might propose because he fears he would lose me if he didn't make that happen very soon.

 

I have to admit something. I've been feeling very discouraged and disappointed about the fact that nothing has been concretely done to close the distance. I can't help the way I feel but moving to LA to "see how it goes" wasn't sounding very wise to me deep down in my gut. So I am thrilled that he says he would still like to move here, it wouldn't make sense for me to give up so much, etc.... but the reality is... he's stuck in a contract for who knows how long, hopefully only 4 more months but that could change last minute (its the nature of the work), and although he talks about it and says how excited he is to come here. ... like many of you have said, it seems very difficult for me to imagine him actually pulling the trigger and doing it. I mean, hey, he's a spirited and open person, I know he has good intentions and he's motivated.... I guess, my thoughts lately have been, "how long do I have to wait? How long am I willing to wait?"

 

Like Lana says, it IS frustrating to hear all talk no action. I mean, the intention is there, there is just no action behind it (yet). I think his talking about moving to CA a year ago was a pipe dream, seeing as we just met. But now, he says he is really looking forward to meeting the rest of my family on Christmas, as he thinks now it is about time he meets the rest of them (he's only met my parents), and now he actually got his rebellious daughter to agree to come out to CA for Christmas with him, which he's thrilled about... he wants both his kids to like coming here. His son already does and is planning his own independent vacation to SF for Christmas.

Anyway, I mean to say, things have been kind of building up. BF has been feeling more comfortable here, knowing the area, his kids are warming up to it, he has a large wonderful extended family out here, (bonus!!) and he has me, and twice the pay and job opportunities as in LA. I think we can all agree that in many ways CA is one of the most desirable and prosperous states in the US, it is really hard to justify leaving here especially if you're a 4th generation Californian like I am.

 

Anyway, what I meant to say is that I am getting frustrated and impatient, but I see that things are in the works. He is planning to come here for Christmas on a couple days off and he is also flying his daughter out for the very first time. He's been trying to show them that there is better for them outside of LA, and he's right.

 

But I have a confession. Sometimes I do need him and often I want to talk and confide and share everything with him. I had a bad night the other night and he called me in the middle of the night after I texted him to call me when he woke up. But sometimes, I kind of want some space. We talk every day, which is great. But lately I've kind of felt a shift. A freedom, a relief.

 

I think it was after his last visit, and I think it had a lot to do with him saying he wanted to move here instead of me moving there. Thank God he was the one to say it and not me. I felt a sense of relief. And I think that has confused me a little. I went out and got a new haircut that I've never had before. I bought a new car, something I'd never picture myself driving. I went out to a party recently and found myself talking to and wanting to talk to other men (just socially). But I found myself feeling more and more independent than I ever have in this relationship before. I feel secure now. Even he mentioned a difference in me. He said how I've changed lately, how before sometimes I would get jealous if I saw a woman in a photo with him on FB, or if I didn't hear from him for a couple hours... I think I used to be a lot more worried that he would find someone else or ditch the long distance. Now I feel even more confident than ever and he's the one clinging to me as if he could lose me. Once he even asked me, rhetorically, "what's a nice girl like you doing with someone like me?" He's a good guy but I think he feels insecure sometimes too.

 

I do love him but I'm not willing to wait much longer. It's no one's fault, it's just the circumstances. Sure, I can move there, we have already been through this. But it wouldn't be worth the move, if it was to be with him, if he just wants to be here. I think that when we see each other for Christmas, very little time alone, maybe a day or so, we can simply feel and observe our interactions. Sometimes not a lot needs to be said.

Like now. I feel I need a little breather from talking about future plans.

 

I feel that if he wants to be here, he will be here. It's December and we've been dating almost 14 months. He wants to meet my entire family and he wants me to be a part of his. He seems like he is looking toward the future with me and I also agree that we need to discuss what he wants in 1 year, 5, 10, 15 and beyond. I asked him that tonight and he wanted to talk after work so I'm sure I'll get the answer.

 

I realize I have serious relationship anxiety and commitment phobia. He also seems to have trouble with commitment in many ways but not as much as me. I am almost 33 and I regret passing up the opportunities I've had in the past. I could have already been married (and divorced), and had a child who would be about 8 years old now. I chose my life.

I want to give this a chance. My heart told me not to move to LA unless he came here first. I want to wait this out a bit and see if he will follow through with it.

 

I realize it's a possibility he might propose on this next visit but I don't really think so. I just can't see him being comfortable enough to do that if we don't even live in the same state yet. And also, if he did propose, I wouldn't agree with a long engagement and let it drag out (because those aren't the right fits, we all see that with people we know who have been in that position). I think if it gets to that point, it will be time to move quickly.

Edited December 6, 2016 by venusishername

[lana-banana]

Venus, I don't care at all about how he proposes. That is no one's business but yours. What I do care about is what the proposal signifies, and in your circumstances it doesn't seem to mean "he's going to marry me!" but rather "we're going to move in together and then maybe marry me!" There is a huge difference between the two. You have repeatedly said you need a major commitment in order to be ready and he is offering you a commitment that is signficantly less than a proposal typically is. What he is "robbing" you of is that sense of security you are so keen on. That's all I'm trying to say.

 

Yes, I do think it's a matter of appeasing you, and it isn't very much work at all on his behalf. How hard has this been for him, really? It can't be that difficult because he's been comfortable continuing for so long at the current distance.

[lana-banana]

Also, I thought about adding this to my other post but decided it needed its own: many congratulations on the car! That's VA wonderful achievement, especially if it makes you feel independent and confident!

[No_Go]

Is his extended family close to him? Can they offer him living with them?

Does he have (or look for) someone to take care of his properties in LA?

Is he taking steps in terms of certificates for work in CA (does it take long to get these)?

 

Answering the above will let you know if he's realistic about moving here in 3-4 months or just dreaming.

 

Another thing: you say you feel very independent in that RL... I and sure so does he. With the long distance you don't have the 'dependencies' of a regular relationship (choosing activities together, spending every night together etc) - of course you both feel more free and independent. My gut feeling is that he, and most likely you, actually enjoy that feeling - otherwise you'd be fighting tooth and nail to close the distance. It is just cost/benefit analysis - pluses of long distance for two of you are more than the minuses, or at least that's how two of you perceive it - therefore you're not in a rush to make changes.

 

Trust me, when I had to get away from abusive and mooching exes in the past, or relocate for awesome job opportunity - things were going in a snap. Because I had a huge urge to do it. Now, I have a decent but not great job - it satisfies me enough to drag my feet to look for improving it or finding another one. Seems like that's how you two perceive your LTR.

[NuevoYorko]

What he is "robbing" you of is that sense of security you are so keen on. That's all I'm trying to say.

I don't see him robbing her at all; he is acquiescing to all the hurdles placed before him as well as he can.

 

I feel that Venus has told everyone who reads this thread, if they can navigate through all the words, that this man is ok with things as they are, including his life the way it is in LA, but is "open" to moving to another level (marriaga and children) if and when they find out they are compatible. OPEN. That doesn't mean that it's his goal, it means that he's OPEN to considering it, IF they are good together on a day to day basis. Paring away all the extraneous and confusing splinter stories and extra words, this is the picture I have of this man in this relationship.

 

We'll see what actually happens.

 

Venus, I was writing a reply to your long post above but by the time I got to the end of it, you had contradicted yourself so drastically on every point that I gave up. This whole thing seems to be a big ball of confusion.

[clia]

I guess now all you can do is wait and see what happens.

 

Is he planning to bring his kids with him when he moves here?

[venusishername]

Venus, I don't care at all about how he proposes. That is no one's business but yours. What I do care about is what the proposal signifies, and in your circumstances it doesn't seem to mean "he's going to marry me!" but rather "we're going to move in together and then maybe marry me!" There is a huge difference between the two. You have repeatedly said you need a major commitment in order to be ready and he is offering you a commitment that is signficantly less than a proposal typically is. What he is "robbing" you of is that sense of security you are so keen on. That's all I'm trying to say.

Yes, I do think it's a matter of appeasing you, and it isn't very much work at all on his behalf. How hard has this been for him, really? It can't be that difficult because he's been comfortable continuing for so long at the current distance.

I hear you. But guess what? I’m not moving in with him if we don’t have a wedding date. I already decided that some time ago.

Your second paragraph is the very reason why I’m so frustrated and annoyed lately. I’m kind of reaching a breaking point here. You are right. He has been comfortable with the distance, much more so than I am. Not sure why that is, my dad mentioned once that this is all so perfectly convenient for bf, he is avoiding the commitment of a same city relationship, keeping an arm’s length to the long term goals. I’m not sure it’s intentional, but it shows his hesitancy to commit. Same as me, I guess. I could easily move there, but I don’t want to just go there and “see how it goes”. Hopefully I have made that clear. But he seems to keep dragging things out. Now I see what you have been saying.

But can I ask you this- what reason do you think he has been so comfortable continuing so long at the current distance? What is that really serving? What is the draw of that?

Also, I thought about adding this to my other post but decided it needed its own: many congratulations on the car! That's VA wonderful achievement, especially if it makes you feel independent and confident!

 

Thank you. I feel like a new woman! Plus it’s really made me get a handle on managing my finances, which I have needed to do for some time.

On a separate note, he has been talking for weeks about another “vacation” to come to CA (for Xmas). As it turns out, his daughter has finally agreed that she wants to come, so he’s planning to pay for her ticket and fund his own and her vacation in CA for 4-5 days. They have family here. My point is, that’s nice and all, since he is intending to move to CA, of course he wants his kids to know and love CA, he has family here, he wants to be with me…

But I can’t help but think (not sure if I’m being too critical)… but it seems to me if I was planning to move across the country, I would not be planning any vacations and saving as much money as possible. When he’s here he always pays for everything. There goes the money. Maybe it’s none of my business and he’s got a handle on it, but it seems to me that if I were trying to move across the country I would want as much money as possible saved up and would forgo vacations and spending unnecessarily on rental cars, airplane tickets, and the cost of vacations.

 

I have to be totally honest. I’m getting really discouraged and it’s causing me to re-consider continuing the relationship as 100% committed to him until I see concrete action. Is that wrong? Am I being too impatient? Is he trying and it will just take some more time? I have to agree with you Lana that he seems too comfortable keeping the status quo.

I guess I am too.

Edited December 11, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
language~T

[clia]

On a separate note, he has been talking for weeks about another “vacation” to come to CA (for Xmas). As it turns out, his daughter has finally agreed that she wants to come, so he’s planning to pay for her ticket and fund his own and her vacation in CA for 4-5 days. They have family here. My point is, that’s nice and all, since he is intending to move to CA, of course he wants his kids to know and love CA, he has family here, he wants to be with me…

But I can’t help but think (not sure if I’m being too critical)… but it seems to me if I was planning to move across the country, I would not be planning any vacations and saving as much money as possible. When he’s here he always pays for everything. There goes the money. Maybe it’s none of my business and he’s got a handle on it, but it seems to me that if I were trying to move across the country I would want as much money as possible saved up and would forgo vacations and spending unnecessarily on rental cars, airplane tickets, and the cost of vacations.

 

Isn't this "vacation" in large part to see you? I don't understand -- don't you want him to come? Or is it that he's also paying for his daughter that bothers you? Well, get used to it if you marry him.

 

If him spending the money bothers you that much, why don't you talk to him and tell him not to come, that you'd prefer he save the money for the move?

 

I have to be totally honest. I’m getting really discouraged and it’s causing me to re-consider continuing the relationship as 100% committed to him until I see concrete action. Is that wrong? Am I being too impatient? Is he trying and it will just take some more time? I have to agree with you Lana that he seems too comfortable keeping the status quo.

I guess I am too.

This seems really unfair. You all just decided within the past month or so that he will move to CA. He's in the middle of a project and won't be able to move for at least 3-4 months. You know that. So, what exactly are you expecting him to do right now? It's way too soon for him to find a place to live or find a job since he doesn't know his move date yet. It's unfortunate that you are now tired of the long distance, but it seems you are setting him up for failure by expecting things that simply aren't feasible right now. Edited December 11, 2016 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[No_Go]

It is actually great that he's taking his daughter, if he moves - guess what - his kids of course will have to be frequent visitors, and of course he'll help them with traveling costs if need be. To me seems like a sign he's serious about moving over to CA. If he's a decent human being, his kids are (and should always be) his top priority.

 

Since he has kids - keep in mind they'll be a huge part of his finances in the future as well (include here inherited properties, properties you buy together unless otherwise specified, insurances etc). You'll be a step-mother. Are you ok with this responsibility?

[Sunkissedpatio]

 

I have to be totally honest. I’m getting really discouraged and it’s causing me to re-consider continuing the relationship as 100% committed to him until I see concrete action. Is that wrong? Am I being too impatient? Is he trying and it will just take some more time? I have to agree with you Lana that he seems too comfortable keeping the status quo.

I guess I am too.

 

 

Venus, what??? I'm starting to think since your decision to not move you are actually taking steps towards discouraging your guy every way possible so that you could actually break up. Like on some level you want to sabotage this....

[Sunkissedpatio]

How could you possibly accuse him of being too complacent when it's taken you how many pages and time to even make a decision let alone mobilize yourself to meet this man half way?

[anna121]

Venus, I was writing a reply to your long post above but by the time I got to the end of it, you had contradicted yourself so drastically on every point that I gave up. This whole thing seems to be a big ball of confusion.

 

I have to agree with this, thought I also understand it, in a way.

[Kamille]

 

But can I ask you this- what reason do you think he has been so comfortable continuing so long at the current distance? What is that really serving? What is the draw of that?

 

 

 

My jaw dropped reading the above.

 

Adding my voice to Clia's and the others here who think you are being unfair. Up until not a month ago, the plan was for you to move over there.

 

For many reasons, you stalled on moving, renewed your lease, etc. He's now saying he's willing to move to you once his work contract his over. Give him the chance to stand by his word before you judge his motives.