When it rains it pours

February 28, 2015

I'm glad you're so resilient.

I've personally given up on love. I don't believe I'll find someone who I have great sexual chemistry with and who is my best friend as well.

I am over going on copious amounts of dates every week when the same thing happens every time: the guys I'm attracted to sexually and I want to get to know are never into me.

As for me? I guess I'm 28 and I feel that love simply isn't for me. It doesn't happen for everyone.

Good luck. And I'm out.

I won't be going on dates for me to speculate and offer up advice now.

So, Leigh, you too are an addict. But you're in denial.

My prediction; you'll be dating again within a month. Probably sooner.

February 28, 2015

Maybe I'm missing something.. haven't read the recent posts.

[Oops, misquoted, that was NYchag]

No, I don't think that was a plan that we made to have dinner at my place, music, etc. He was just telling me that he would LIKE to do those things. We also talked about going out 'out' to dinner.

I've thought a couple times 'he left the ball in my court' and maybe he did... I've said it over and over that he sensed my hesitation and wasn't clear on how I felt... but even so...if he liked me that much he wouldn't let the communication drop.

WHY haven't I invited him? Because he declined my coffee invite the morning after and never made an alternative suggestion or even said a simple 'hello' for two weeks and probably never will. I'm pissed. So I deleted his number and he doesn't deserve any invitation into my life. He doesn't even want to have coffee with me the morning after. Screw that.

If he really wanted to get to know me... he would. Period.

Venus, I'm so happy that you recognize this! This is a first step; the second step is to recognize your "warped" thinking. Warped thinking is very common with any addict. But as an example...

Thank you! I'm so glad I finally realized this just within the past 6 months now.

Please explain how being pretty, attractive, and sexy makes you good relationship material? Wouldn't you prefer to be with a man that waits to discover your core qualities (not the superficial ones you listed) before deciding he wants to have sex with you?

Since sex is a purely primal instinct, I don't think it's possible that someone could hold off on deciding whether they want to sleep with you. You know what I mean. But yes, I would rather be with a man who WANTS to discover my core qualities.. not necessarily WAIT to discovery them as you put it.

But to answer your question, I don't think being pretty, attractive and sexy makes me good relationship material at all. I think I have a lot of good qualities... I just lead with those superficial things because well,

I've always been praised or got attention for my looks I think. Goes along with being a perfectionist I guess?

Anyway, I think I have a lot to offer, but I have to remind myself of that often. What makes me good relationship material? I'm nurturing, honest, loyal, dedicated, and have strong family values. I'm independent and self-reliant and would be able to pull my weight as an equal in a partnership.

I can't think of anything else at the moment. But I think I am special and have a lot to offer. But I do often question just how much I have to offer, or if that's enough.

That's because you have low self worth. I you didn't, it wouldn't be a hard pill to swallow at all. You would just think, well we weren't a good match. End of story. Good that it ended.

Right. I do think that at least in terms of my latest disappointment ®. Sometimes the low self worth thoughts creep out, though. I'm getting much better than I used to. I used to think it was because I wasn't good enough. Now, for example with R... the tables kind of turned with this one... and I held firm in my self-worth and once he showed HE wasn't worthy of my time (not the other way around), I decided I had no interest in chasing that. In the past, I would've probably clung to it.

Our cores are very messy and flawed and real. It's the feeling that if somebody knew your core, they wouldn't love you, that is the issue. That's the reason you focus on the superficial.

Oh yes... I have felt that way 100%. I went through some traumas with my ex (well, two of them) who were very controlling, emotionally abusive, one eventually stalked me; I've participated in an affair with a taken man briefly; I've had more sexual partners than I feel comfortable with (it's nothing crazy, just more than I would have liked in a perfect world.) Those things make me feel unlovable and flawed. Again my perfectionism coming through. But yes, you could not be more correct, Weezy. You really nailed it. I've gotten some great advice on here that taps the surface of the issue, but you and a couple others have been able to see to the core of it. Thank you.

And Leigh.. stop being so fatalistic.

To give up on love at 28 years old is laughable. It's ok, I've felt that way before too. Don't give up. Sounds like you and I both need to deal with some important issues before we are ABLE to be in a healthy relationship. That's why we can't force these things with the guys we encounter. There's good reasons why they aren't working out.

Edited February 28, 2015 by venusishername

March 1, 2015

If you really want to get the guy and stop the long pursuit of finding a husband to be and worrying about your age - use the "push and pull" trick

push = telling him romantic things saying things that he wants to hear. Tell him that you care about how he feels and that you understand his feelings. Tell him that he is important to you for many reasons

pull = when he comes closer or makes an effort to come closer, try to downplay his importance or resist a little if he tries to kiss you. this will make you look even more attractive and make him crave you even more.

You might think that this trick is for younger people, but human psychology stays the same - you only want something that you cannot get - and outrightly giving him sex is going to ruin your chances of getting married, unless both of you are really in love. Use this push and pull trick, and i guarantee you if you really fancy him, he will be chasing mountains to get to you

March 2, 2015

I had a blast from my past over the weekend. Very unexpected. Just as I was getting stronger too and now this setback. Makes me feel awful.

I mentioned a few posts back that I once participated in an affair, a couple years ago now. A very lonely time in my life, very vulnerable after my breakup. He was someone I'd known for years. So I trusted him I guess, I knew him well. He knew my ex, he was single when I was taken and vice versa over the years. We always had a thing for each other and for the first time after years of knowing each other, he admitted his feelings to me and made the move, which started the whole thing. It ended. But he came back and I saw him with the group of friends.

Seeing him just reinforces that feeling of low self worth; I've carried a lot of shame and guilt about what happened between us. "It" is still there between us and I think it will be for a long time.

He got me alone.. I didn't initiate it, I never have..he pulled me into him and kissed me, and took my hand, touched my face, told me the same things he always has... that he thinks about me, he wants to see me, how he wishes we could just go away together for a month alone to some island..(I know, how corny.. but when those words are spoken in sincerity and with passion behind it, it's sweet on the ears and the thought is appealing). Every time I've told him I can't do this, it's not fair, you can't keep doing this to me, you're taken, it makes me feel awful for wanting you and having this little secret 'connection'. The affair ended years ago, short lived.. but the feelings are still there for sure.

I gave in just a little to his kisses and touching but stopped it and wouldn't surrender myself again. We've often talked at length about this and I don't see him leaving her anytime soon. He doesn't have the guts. He tells me how the timing's been off, that's why, it's unfortunate, he is content in his relationship but with me he feels like it's something completely separate and incomparable.

Anyway, occasionally over the years since then he has contacted me, via email, I've told him to stop, he does, but then he comes back to town he finds a way to get me alone to talk. When we said goodbye I told him coldly, "next time, I might not be available". And he said "I'm surprised you ever would be (available)." As in he's dumbfounded as to how I'm still single.

Ha, funny thing... I told him in general terms about my recent dating disappointments. I admitted I was very lonely, how I feel I'm not making connections with the people I've dated lately. He said something sweet, like "that's on them.. they have no idea what they're missing, how special you are. I see it. You have so much to offer, etc."

Once I told him I didn't see myself getting married, it wasn't in the cards for me... and he told me that's absolutely impossible that could ever be true.

As ****ty as I feel for this little secret between us, and the feelings that are still there on both ends... as angry as it makes me that he toys with my heart... I can't help but feel a little self satisfied to hear his true and kind words about how great he thinks I am... those things offset the bad feelings.

This 'relationship' hits straight to the core of my feelings of low self worth. But then again it reminds me of my worthiness...not just because he reminds me, but also because I become more resolved to find my own love, a love that's available 100%. Heavy stuff.

I feel like a terrible person for allowing him to kiss and touch me again.

I realized as long as I'm 'available', he's always going to try. So, like I said to him, I hope next time he resurfaces that I'm taken. I'd like to be completely "off limits" to him so he stops coming onto me. This sucks.

The good news is over the past couple weeks I've come to peace with my recent disappointments with A and R. A was genuine and yes, relationship-minded. It just wasn't a good fit. I think highly of him because he's a good guy.

I've come to the conclusion that although R's words were sweet as pie, his flattery got him everywhere with me... and while he may have been sincere in the moment, he never did lie to me or mislead.... when I confirmed with adamancy that I wanted something serious, I was not interested in casual... I'm pretty certain he realized we were not on the same page. Not that we weren't compatible personality-wise, because I think that we were. I was thrown off by his persistence and consistency...but that ended abruptly after I made my intentions crystal clear.

I am curious to see how it will be when we run into each other. But... no harm, no foul. I enjoyed the time we did spend together and I am grateful for the lesson. I kind of gloat just thinking about how when he sees me out with someone else, eventually.. he'll think, "damn, I'm an idiot."

I know from here on out what I want and I am very clear on it, more than ever. I want something mature, honest, available and REAL. No wondering. No waiting by the phone. After what I just went through... I want to really get to know someone first, build a friendship too. I do want to wait.

My trouble will be putting on the brakes when a macho, tall and handsome bad boy with a killer smile, high sex drive and an inflated ego tries to put the moves on me. I turn to mush. It's going to be hard. Fortunately, that is nowhere on the horizon (yet) so I'm good for now.

I look at the men in my life that I admire, who have the qualities of the kind of man I would want to be with. My dad, stepdad, Grandpa, boss, male friends. I have good role models around me.

March 2, 2015

So, Leigh, you too are an addict. But you're in denial.

My prediction; you'll be dating again within a month. Probably sooner.

no I know I am addicted to dating.

Now I have started my degree, I have made the decision to not date and to, instead, wait out for the whole package; intense chemistry and great compatibility.

I prefer the instant spark - that something special, and I am going to hold out for it to occur with the right man.

I predict that after three years when I graduate and start a great career, I will soon find him.

It takes time to find a 10/10 on the chemistry scale and a great compatibility too. So it will take a few years but probably not much longer since I am attractive enough and pleasant enough to be around to attracted enough options for me to realistically hold out for the whole package.

For now I wont date for the hell of dating only if I actually though that hey, this guy really excites me and I feel an intense chemistry that I cannot ignore.

THAT ^^^^ seldom happens for me, only with three guys so far. The rest I dated for the heck of it not because I truly wanted them.

So I am done dating for a good while unless someone knocks me socks off and me them- which doesn't come about often and therefore shouldn't happen anytime soon.

March 2, 2015

I had a blast from my past over the weekend. Very unexpected. Just as I was getting stronger too and now this setback. Makes me feel awful.

I mentioned a few posts back that I once participated in an affair, a couple years ago now. A very lonely time in my life, very vulnerable after my breakup. He was someone I'd known for years. So I trusted him I guess, I knew him well. He knew my ex, he was single when I was taken and vice versa over the years. We always had a thing for each other and for the first time after years of knowing each other, he admitted his feelings to me and made the move, which started the whole thing. It ended. But he came back and I saw him with the group of friends.
Seeing him just reinforces that feeling of low self worth; I've carried a lot of shame and guilt about what happened between us. "It" is still there between us and I think it will be for a long time.

He got me alone.. I didn't initiate it, I never have..he pulled me into him and kissed me, and took my hand, touched my face, told me the same things he always has... that he thinks about me, he wants to see me, how he wishes we could just go away together for a month alone to some island..(I know, how corny.. but when those words are spoken in sincerity and with passion behind it, it's sweet on the ears and the thought is appealing). Every time I've told him I can't do this, it's not fair, you can't keep doing this to me, you're taken, it makes me feel awful for wanting you and having this little secret 'connection'. The affair ended years ago, short lived.. but the feelings are still there for sure.

I gave in just a little to his kisses and touching but stopped it and wouldn't surrender myself again. We've often talked at length about this and I don't see him leaving her anytime soon. He doesn't have the guts. He tells me how the timing's been off, that's why, it's unfortunate, he is content in his relationship but with me he feels like it's something completely separate and incomparable.
Anyway, occasionally over the years since then he has contacted me, via email, I've told him to stop, he does, but then he comes back to town he finds a way to get me alone to talk. When we said goodbye I told him coldly, "next time, I might not be available". And he said "I'm surprised you ever would be (available)." As in he's dumbfounded as to how I'm still single.
Ha, funny thing... I told him in general terms about my recent dating disappointments. I admitted I was very lonely, how I feel I'm not making connections with the people I've dated lately. He said something sweet, like "that's on them.. they have no idea what they're missing, how special you are. I see it. You have so much to offer, etc."
Once I told him I didn't see myself getting married, it wasn't in the cards for me... and he told me that's absolutely impossible that could ever be true.
As ****ty as I feel for this little secret between us, and the feelings that are still there on both ends... as angry as it makes me that he toys with my heart... I can't help but feel a little self satisfied to hear his true and kind words about how great he thinks I am... those things offset the bad feelings.
This 'relationship' hits straight to the core of my feelings of low self worth. But then again it reminds me of my worthiness...not just because he reminds me, but also because I become more resolved to find my own love, a love that's available 100%. Heavy stuff.
I feel like a terrible person for allowing him to kiss and touch me again.
I realized as long as I'm 'available', he's always going to try. So, like I said to him, I hope next time he resurfaces that I'm taken. I'd like to be completely "off limits" to him so he stops coming onto me. This sucks.

Hey, Venus - I'm gonna pick up where Weezy left off.

Are you making any sort of connection about how what you describe above is exactly the addiction that Weezy was describing to you?

Your dynamic with this guy is described romantically and as if it were fated and you just can't stay away from him.

In reality, it's a guy who chooses to be with someone other than you (confirming your low self-worth to you) but gives you that interest and validation in your attractiveness that you are addicted to. You are tone deaf to his numerous extremely-visible character flaws because you're getting your preferred drug from him. And, best of all, he's doing it in spite of being in a relationship with someone, showing you that your desirability is off the charts to make a "good guy" cheat on his woman with you.

If we could develop a male in laboratory to show you exactly your issues and what you need to work on, this guy is it.

You could learn a great deal from your run in with this guy if you were willing to. I'm a little disturbed that you kissed him and let him touch you. Are you learning anything or is the addiction so powerful that you allow it to overtake your common sense?

Knock it off with this guy. He's not a good guy. He's not a catch. He's a d*ck.

The good news is over the past couple weeks I've come to peace with my recent disappointments with A and R. A was genuine and yes, relationship-minded. It just wasn't a good fit. I think highly of him because he's a good guy.

But he left without a peep. That's not that great of him.

And I'm glad you're ready to approach the concept of you having dated a guy who wants a relationship but doesn't want one with you. You are really sensitive to that, and use it as a measure of your worth, but it's just a fact of life.

You're relationship minded, but you don't want every guy out there, do you? You can be into a guy and then he can act in ways that make you change your mind, right? What is it that is so personally devastating that you could fall into these categories with certain guys and they don't want a relationship with you?

I've come to the conclusion that although R's words were sweet as pie, his flattery got him everywhere with me... and while he may have been sincere in the moment, he never did lie to me or mislead.... when I confirmed with adamancy that I wanted something serious, I was not interested in casual... I'm pretty certain he realized we were not on the same page. Not that we weren't compatible personality-wise, because I think that we were. I was thrown off by his persistence and consistency...but that ended abruptly after I made my intentions crystal clear.
I am curious to see how it will be when we run into each other. But... no harm, no foul. I enjoyed the time we did spend together and I am grateful for the lesson. I kind of gloat just thinking about how when he sees me out with someone else, eventually.. he'll think, "damn, I'm an idiot."

You're allowed to not find R that great. He faded out without a peep, again. You don't need to admire him.

And that last statement is about you seeking your drug: "Venus is good looking and has a lot to offer in my male opinion." That's what you're always after with every guy. You want him to think that and show you that he thinks that, and you use sex as a tool to get it.

I know from here on out what I want and I am very clear on it, more than ever. I want something mature, honest, available and REAL. No wondering. No waiting by the phone. After what I just went through... I want to really get to know someone first, build a friendship too. I do want to wait.

Good. Note the slow pace that you describe.

My trouble will be putting on the brakes when a macho, tall and handsome bad boy with a killer smile, high sex drive and an inflated ego tries to put the moves on me. I turn to mush. It's going to be hard.

It's really not that hard if you'd develop some self-awareness that you can access in real time.

I look at the men in my life that I admire, who have the qualities of the kind of man I would want to be with. My dad, stepdad, Grandpa, boss, male friends. I have good role models around me.

What are those qualities? Because I think you've been seeking guys that don't have those qualities.

Spell them out Venus. It's part of that real-time self-awareness.

Edited March 2, 2015 by idoltree

March 2, 2015

Oh boy. I have a hard time listening when people try to justify their affairs. Ones that are in the past, OK—you made a mistake and you learnt from it. But ongoing participation? Venus, I just had to roll my eyes, I'm sorry.

To piggyback off what idoltree said, I'm dismayed that you still allowed this man to get close to you and tell you these flattering things. He "got you alone??" Why did you allow this? The way you describe the scenario, it makes it sound like you had zero control over it, when in reality, you had complete control. If you know it's wrong—don't do it. You could have chosen to keep a wide berth from this guy, but you didn't.

You say you're angry he "plays with your heart," but c'mon love, you're LETTING HIM! You say you feel worse after you see him; you know there's another woman at the other end of this who is surely getting hurt; so the only ones who win in this situation are this douchebag and that sick part of you that gets pleasure and validation from hearing the things he tells you.

Enough. You don't need that in your life, and it's wreaking havoc in the lives of others. You are complicit. You are accountable. Put an end to this.

March 2, 2015

Venus, I've enjoyed your blog-style posts of dating stores....you are doing a very good job overall! It reminds me of some of my dating stories that I share with friends and wing-women friends. I did however see a couple things you might have done better:

1) A couple of the guys you dated.... I think one had too many work hours or weird shifts.... and another traveled out of town for work for periods of time.

This is similar to the problems with long distance relationships...and only 1 in 1,000 of those work out. The success rate is lower than being in the freindzone, believe it or not. Some people are married to their jobs, or don't really have time for a relationship. Just because people are naive and don't realize this does not mean it's not true. I would consider looking for someone that has a work schedule closer to 40 hours who stays in town.

2) The other problem I see is with negotiating dates. Now, at least one of the guys was doing it wrong (I don't remember how many of your dates were doing this)... in the beginning, asking for a date on the same day, that's too short a notice.... and it comes across like a booty-call. I understand that's a turnoff, it should be. It's fine to have booty calls sometimes when you are a couple... but not in the beginning when you are just dating and getting to know each other, you are right in your thinking.

The guys should be calling you a day or two in advance for a date.... calling you on Monday for a Tuesday or Wednesday date, a Tuesday for a Wednesday or Thursday date, etc. It's hard to find a gentleman these days, isn't it?! Thank goodness you only need to find one good one!

I noticed that you rejected the date idea for the same day. And one of the guys complained about it. It does come off as you rejecting the guy personally. I hate to say this, but he was right in this instance. (You were both negotiating dates poorly.)

May I suggest another way to handle booty calls in the future? Instead of just telling the guy you are not available and leaving him hanging, thinking you are not intrested, suggest a future day. This way, you are making a counteroffer. It's okay to help them a little, the best women do this. While the man should be the main pursuer, the best women are helpful when they like a guy. Playing hard to get is great, it doubles love level. But it must be done tactfully for best results.

Furthermore, a relationship is a friendship on fire, with romance and affection to turn up the heat! The man should call first for most of the dates in the beginning... if they are the ones taking a step forward first, they are the ones risking rejection, not you. And as a woman, that's what you want. Dating and relationships are primarily a woman's world.... they have most of the power. Good for you, I say! But you should still work with them a little. So, it's okay to negotiate a little, like you would do when setting up a night out with a friend.

Again, you are doing very well! I hear wedding bells in your future!

P.S. I do think sex on date one or two is unnaturally fast. Consider waiting 3 dates or 3 weeks if you can. Please realize there is a difference between fantasy and reality... one you should do, the other you should not. Good dating and relationships take discipline, but the payoff, true love, pays big dividends in the end, and is worth it, many times over

Edited March 2, 2015 by Gary S

March 2, 2015

I apologize in advance if I'm misreading. Are you saying that you messed around with some jerk who previously used you as a side piece? If that sounds vulgar, then good. You are in dire need of a wake-up call. Venus, you have always been endearing and exasperating, but this is the first time I've been genuinely disappointed in you. (Not that it matters what a random woman on the Internet thinks, but still.)

He got me alone.. I didn't initiate it, I never have..he pulled me into him and kissed me, and took my hand, touched my face, told me the same things he always has...

So this is all his fault? If you didn't say "That's nice, so either break up with your girlfriend or put it back in your pants" then that's on you. Own your role in this. You are over 30 and you're acting like a child. Grow up.

that he thinks about me, he wants to see me, how he wishes we could just go away together for a month alone to some island..(I know, how corny.. but when those words are spoken in sincerity and with passion behind it, it's sweet on the ears and the thought is appealing).

Emphasized for holy-sh-t-I-can't-believe-what-I'm-reading. In sincerity? Venus, the man is cheating on his girlfriend. Sincerity is not his strong point. He is willing to say whatever it takes to get you into bed, just the same way he is willing to tell his girlfriend that he loves her and will never leave her. I guarantee you he is not being sincere. If he were sincere about his love and admiration for you, he would be with you. He isn't because he's not.

I gave in just a little to his kisses and touching but stopped it and wouldn't surrender myself again.

So you messed around with him but didn't technically have sex. Sorry if I'm not inclined to give you a medal, especially when you know he has absolutely no intention whatsoever of leaving her (and they aren't even married? The timing is off? Come on.) He'd rather be with her 95% of the time and bang you once in a blue moon than be with you full-time.

When we said goodbye I told him coldly, "next time, I might not be available".

Why are you available now? Why are you available at all to a man who's technically committed to someone else? Where the hell is your self-respect?

And he said "I'm surprised you ever would be (available)." As in he's dumbfounded as to how I'm still single...He said something sweet, like "that's on them.. they have no idea what they're missing, how special you are. I see it. You have so much to offer, etc."...he told me that's absolutely impossible that could ever be true.

Why do you believe a word out of this man's mouth? I cannot believe your self-esteem is so low that you're seeking validation from a man who repeatedly cheats on his girlfriend. The saddest part of this is that he isn't even saying he wants to be with you; he's just saying that other people should want to be with you. This is like when you go on a date with a guy and he says he's not interested "...but you're going to make some lucky guy very happy someday!" Vomit.

As ****ty as I feel for this little secret between us, and the feelings that are still there on both ends... as angry as it makes me that he toys with my heart... I can't help but feel a little self satisfied to hear his true and kind words about how great he thinks I am[/b]... those things offset the bad feelings.

This should be on every page of The Other Man/Woman subforum. You don't care that he has a girlfriend he loves and won't leave, you don't care that he doesn't want to date you, you don't care that you're guaranteed easy sex any time for him, you don't care that he will ever be with you. All you care is that a man you find attractive said a few stock phrases, therefore it's completely okay for him to treat you like dirt.

I realized as long as I'm 'available', he's always going to try. So, like I said to him, I hope next time he resurfaces that I'm taken. I'd like to be completely "off limits" to him so he stops coming onto me.

Once again, complete refusal to acknowledge your role in the situation. Venus, he already knows you're willing to mess around while he has a partner, so why should he think that would change if you have a partner? It's not going to stop until you stop being available, period.

The rest of the post is your standard pep talk (which I suspect is addressed more to us than you) about you how know what you want now and it's going to be different this next time, seriously, even though it hasn't been. You are surprisingly blase about having a dalliance with a taken man and it suggests you are not yet in a position where your judgment is sound. Get a grip and think about the huge gap between your words and actions.

March 3, 2015

Are you making any sort of connection about how what you describe above is exactly the addiction that Weezy was describing to you?

Yes I am making the connection. It was a good reminder of my addiction that I didn't see before. He confirms my 'fears' of low self worth and at the same time fulfills my addiction for validation and desirability. 100%. Which is WHY I find it hard to resist... because it's fulfilling both my fears and my desires. Hmm.

If we could develop a male in laboratory to show you exactly your issues and what you need to work on, this guy is it.
Well then, that is a blessing in disguise that he resurfaced.

You could learn a great deal from your run in with this guy if you were willing to. I'm a little disturbed that you kissed him and let him touch you. Are you learning anything or is the addiction so powerful that you allow it to overtake your common sense?

It overtook my common sense. I was fighting it, like I do every time, and I gave in again. I'm human, but I still regret doing it.

And I'm glad you're ready to approach the concept of you having dated a guy who wants a relationship but doesn't want one with you. You are really sensitive to that, and use it as a measure of your worth, but it's just a fact of life.
You're relationship minded, but you don't want every guy out there, do you? You can be into a guy and then he can act in ways that make you change your mind, right? What is it that is so personally devastating that you could fall into these categories with certain guys and they don't want a relationship with you?.

That's a good way to spin it. I'm not sure how to answer your question about why it's so personally devastating. I think the reason is because it confirms my own feelings of not being worthy. If someone is into me (like you talk about below) and then changes their mind, it MUST be because they saw a side of me that they didn't feel was 'good enough'; my 'flawed core'. If someone (like A and R for example) was into me on a hot pursuit and seemed genuine, and once they got to know me, changed their mind... it CONFIRMS MY FEAR that I don't have enough to offer, so instead I should depend on what I DO know I can offer, and that is superficial and sex based. This makes sense as to why I keep things 'superficial'- like Weezy mentioned... because I'm afraid that if I don't, I'll lose a love interest. In fact, now I realize how much that's worked against me.

For example, R mentioned that I've been very reserved and he can't read me. Why? Because I had so many walls up. Why the walls? Trying to protect my heart. Resisted connecting with him on a deeper level, although I give him credit for holding a mirror up and making me see that. So instead, I played it cool and breezy, wasn't straightforward, played hard to get.

I've been thinking lately that "I'm not making any connections with the guys I date"... and the reason why is because I've been leaning on a superficial and "casual" connection. If I want something more than that, not only do I have to be ready, but I have to open myself up to it. I've been saying this all along.

You're allowed to not find R that great. He faded out without a peep, again. You don't need to admire him.

This upsets me so much, and again, reaffirms my fear that I'm not good enough for a simple hello or phone call or even a simple explanation. Are these guys so spineless that they can't even have the decency to do that??? Apparently so. I'm much more honest than that and I suppose I expect everyone to be honest.

And that last statement is about you seeking your drug: "Venus is good looking and has a lot to offer in my male opinion." That's what you're always after with every guy. You want him to think that and show you that he thinks that, and you use sex as a tool to get it.

Sure. The people I've dated recently think I'm hot, sexy, desirable, blah blah blah whatever. But they don't think I'm fit (or 'good enough') to be their girlfriend. Just like the guy in the affair.

If I don't feel good enough at the core, it's very easy to lean on that drug.

Yup. Sex is a very pleasurable tool to get that fix. So is persistent and consistent contact. So are sweet words. So is a passionate kiss or a simple look conveying desire.

What are those qualities? Because I think you've been seeking guys that don't have those qualities.Spell them out Venus. It's part of that real-time self-awareness.

Honesty, integrity, work ethic, loyalty, strong desire to provide and protect for his family, strong sense of responsibility, dedication, respect for others and himself. Above all, honesty. The thing is, I DO think I seek out those qualities. Of course I do. This is what confuses me.

To piggyback off what idoltree said, I'm dismayed that you still allowed this man to get close to you and tell you these flattering things. He "got you alone??" Why did you allow this? The way you describe the scenario, it makes it sound like you had zero control over it, when in reality, you had complete control. If you know it's wrong—don't do it. You could have chosen to keep a wide berth from this guy, but you didn't.
You say you're angry he "plays with your heart," but c'mon love, you're LETTING HIM! You say you feel worse after you see him; you know there's another woman at the other end of this who is surely getting hurt; so the only ones who win in this situation are this douchebag and that sick part of you that gets pleasure and validation from hearing the things he tells you.

I know, losangelena. I am letting him play with my heart. I did try to keep a wide berth from him all night but he managed to get close. A slight touch here and there, brushing against me accidentally, etc. How did he get me alone? He insisted that he accompany me home so I didn't walk alone at night. I also was tempted to hear what he had to say, since it had been so long since we last talked and could talk alone. My curiosity got the better of me. Plus, yes... that sick part of me that gets pleasure and validation from hearing the things he tells me was the devil on my shoulder. Doesn't mean I've learned "nothing".

I just read Chimp's post after I hit submit. I definitely haven't been in a good place, and still am not, you are right. I know this is despicable. But I don't feel "blasé" about it; don't make assumptions.

It's been a couple years now since we saw each other and it was unexpected and caught me by surprise that's for sure.

Please don't come across as so judgmental. THIS, EXACTLY THIS... is the reason why I feel not good enough at my core. I just recently mentioned it here and two days later, it actually presents itself in real life. THIS is why I feel such a low sense of self worth. Because I participate and engage in these things. Whether in the past, or when it resurfaces.. in this case, I did in the past, and I did it again.

Just proves I'm not good enough at the core.... who would want someone like me, someone who does this?!?

Edited March 3, 2015 by venusishername

March 3, 2015

It's not as despicable as it is fifty shades of dumb. You wonder why you can't find a good, loving, relationship-minded man, then go off and make out with an unavailable man who knows exactly what to say to get what he wants and keep you on the line. You threw away your dignity, integrity and better judgment for a guy who said you were special. You haven't even seen him in a couple years and you were still willing to accept his advances? Maybe perhaps part of the reason men treat you cheaply is because you treat yourself that cheaply. You are a lovely person who deserves and is worthy of love, but you can't keep doing these fantastically dumb things and wonder why it's not working.

Edited March 3, 2015 by chimpanA-2-chimpanZ

March 3, 2015

Please don't come across as so judgmental. THIS, EXACTLY THIS... is the reason why I feel not good enough at my core. I just recently mentioned it here and two days later, it actually presents itself in real life. THIS is why I feel such a low sense of self worth. Because I participate and engage in these things. Whether in the past, or when it resurfaces.. in this case, I did in the past, and I did it again.
Just proves I'm not good enough at the core.... who would want someone like me, someone who does this?!?

Do you do have low self worth because you participate in these things, or do you participate in these things because you have low self worth?

There's a difference—it's subtle—but I think it's the latter. While I've never carried on with an otherwise attached man, I know where you're coming from. I mean, hello, I hooked up with a drug user/abuser for the better part of three months last summer—that doesn't exactly scream, "I make self care such a priority!"

I think the blowback you're getting Venus is due to the way you're talking about this affair. If you owned your part in this, I think it'd be different. Instead, you let him touch you, "brush up against you," as if you had zero control. If you really wanted him to stop, you'd have looked him in the eye and said, dead serious, "knock it off." But no, it's almost as if you're like, "whoopsie! I dunno how that happened!" Yeah, right. To me, it sounds like you are trying to justify it, and that's what I think we're negatively reacting to.

I'm not saying none of us have ever had a lapse in integrity—we ALL have (for me, see above for just ONE example), but that doesn't effect our core beliefs about ourselves. To use "who would want someone like me" as an excuse to indulge in affairs or other crappy behavior is lame.

March 3, 2015

Dear god, Venus, I hope this is your rock bottom. It's time to stop with the lipservice and make some ACTUAL changes in your life.

As such, tough love ahead:

Yes I am making the connection. It was a good reminder of my addiction that I didn't see before. He confirms my 'fears' of low self worth and at the same time fulfills my addiction for validation and desirability. 100%. Which is WHY I find it hard to resist... because it's fulfilling both my fears and my desires. Hmm.

So what are you going to do about it?

It overtook my common sense. I was fighting it, like I do every time, and I gave in again. I'm human, but I still regret doing it.

Very passive language, Venus. You chose all of it.

Venus, there's a common denominator that I haven't mentioned yet, but I have to ask - are you always drinking around these guys? Your dates seem to involve drinks or dinner with drinks. Did you drink around the cheater last night? Is alcohol possibly contributing to your bad judgment, craving for male validation, and, as you say, overtaking your common sense? If so, it's time for a talk.

That's a good way to spin it. I'm not sure how to answer your question about why it's so personally devastating. I think the reason is because it confirms my own feelings of not being worthy. If someone is into me (like you talk about below) and then changes their mind, it MUST be because they saw a side of me that they didn't feel was 'good enough'; my 'flawed core'. If someone (like A and R for example) was into me on a hot pursuit and seemed genuine, and once they got to know me, changed their mind... it CONFIRMS MY FEAR that I don't have enough to offer, so instead I should depend on what I DO know I can offer, and that is superficial and sex based. This makes sense as to why I keep things 'superficial'- like Weezy mentioned... because I'm afraid that if I don't, I'll lose a love interest. In fact, now I realize how much that's worked against me.
For example, R mentioned that I've been very reserved and he can't read me. Why? Because I had so many walls up. Why the walls? Trying to protect my heart. Resisted connecting with him on a deeper level, although I give him credit for holding a mirror up and making me see that. So instead, I played it cool and breezy, wasn't straightforward, played hard to get.
I've been thinking lately that "I'm not making any connections with the guys I date"... and the reason why is because I've been leaning on a superficial and "casual" connection. If I want something more than that, not only do I have to be ready, but I have to open myself up to it. I've been saying this all along.

So what are you going to do about it?

Meet different guys. Meet them different ways. Date in a different way. ...No sign of you taking any action steps yet. It seems like you're still waiting for your tall charmer to swoop in and save you from yourself even though your patterns are as clear as day - to us and to you.

This upsets me so much, and again, reaffirms my fear that I'm not good enough for a simple hello or phone call or even a simple explanation. Are these guys so spineless that they can't even have the decency to do that??? Apparently so. I'm much more honest than that and I suppose I expect everyone to be honest.

Listen, the fade happens to all of us. It doesn't make it acceptable.

It happens to you because they've already gotten sex from you and don't feel like pursuing you further. It's awkward, plus they don't want to end things and not have the option to see if they can have sex with you again in the future. Hence the crickets.

It has nothing to do with your value and everything to do with your dating style. Even then, people are going to disappear or opt for other women simply because you can't control other people. However your current dating style ups the chances of the fade.

Sure. The people I've dated recently think I'm hot, sexy, desirable, blah blah blah whatever. But they don't think I'm fit (or 'good enough') to be their girlfriend. Just like the guy in the affair.

You know better. So, I ask again, what are you going to do about it?

If I don't feel good enough at the core, it's very easy to lean on that drug. Yup. Sex is a very pleasurable tool to get that fix. So is persistent and consistent contact. So are sweet words. So is a passionate kiss or a simple look conveying desire.

Words, words and more words. Again, what are you going to do to change this?

Your language gets quite colorful and poetic when you describe these guys visually or when you're talking about sex. It never is otherwise.

Honesty, integrity, work ethic, loyalty, strong desire to provide and protect for his family, strong sense of responsibility, dedication, respect for others and himself. Above all, honesty. The thing is, I DO think I seek out those qualities. Of course I do. This is what confuses me.

You go for the superficial and project these qualities onto them. How could you possibly know if someone is honest, has integrity and a good work ethic, is loyal, dedicated and has respect for others and himself if you're getting drunk and jumping into bed on date 2?

I know, losangelena. I am letting him play with my heart. I did try to keep a wide berth from him all night but he managed to get close. A slight touch here and there, brushing against me accidentally, etc. How did he get me alone? He insisted that he accompany me home so I didn't walk alone at night.

Your passive language and blaming it all on him as if you had no say says you still don't take responsibility for your part in it. You could have had someone else accompany you home.

To your credit, at least you didn't sleep with him given that he walked you home. Baby steps?

I also was tempted to hear what he had to say, since it had been so long since we last talked and could talk alone. My curiosity got the better of me. Plus, yes... that sick part of me that gets pleasure and validation from hearing the things he tells me was the devil on my shoulder. Doesn't mean I've learned "nothing".

I think people think you've learned nothing because, again, there is this constant disconnect with what you say and then what you choose to do. By now, you have a solid understanding of where you are going wrong, yet it's the same stories. To your credit, you are on the path toward change and you don't chase guys as much, but it's still hanging out and boozing with the ol' gang and expecting something to be different, somehow. You seem to want it to be different just by happening to you. You don't want to do the work to create a different life for yourself. This is frustrating for us to watch and I'm guessing it all goes back to low self-worth.

Right now, you're giving us lipservice about being in a semi-chosen celibate period, but you're passive about it. We all know that the next charmer who approaches you somehow will result in the exact same pattern that has happened for 41 pages because you've done nothing but analyze everything to death but not make any susbstantial changes.

I just read Chimp's post after I hit submit. I definitely haven't been in a good place, and still am not, you are right. I know this is despicable. But I don't feel "blasé" at all.

This is really concerning to me. I feel like you've set it up where you're going to see the cheater again. I note you've said nothing about not being willing to talk to him again, and I don't understand why you've left that out unless you haven't ruled that out. The only thing you've said is that you might be taken if he contacts you again. And now he knows he can charm his way into his side piece's pants again, so the likelihood you'll be hearing from him is quite high. (Don't let dysfunctional parts of yourself get excited by that prospect, because it's really not a compliment.)

So, Venus, what will happen if you hear from the cheater? What will you do?

And, Venus, change is hard. It takes work. It doesn't just happen to people, they put in the hard work of noticing their patterns, examining themselves to understand why they have that pattern, dealing with any pain and hurt that has been driving the pattern, and then making changes.

It's okay if you don't want to date right now, but I'd like you to define that time period and I'd like you to stick by that. And I'd like you to start providing solid actions that you can do differently when you are again ready to date.

March 3, 2015

You just need to get better will power too.

When a married guy wants to be physical just say NO.

YOU let him toy with you. It was your choice as much as HIS choice.

You know you have a thing for him so as soon as you saw him, you should have walked away.

You don't kind of sort of end up in his arms. You walk away. You say NO.

Please learn to just walk away Venus.

I am a little disappointed that you allowed yourself to stick around and get too close to this guy..... Next time, just leave the venue, walk away, know yourself better and sever contact and communication from the men who serve to validate you through your looks when they clearly don't want more to do with you beyond sex.

I delete numbers and never reach out again to the men who clearly only want me for one thing.

And I know I won't be on here having to write about a man who is REALLY interested in dating me.

You LET yourself get swept away by this man... you have a 'thing" for him, great. I have a thing for a few guys of my past, electric chemistry, they told me I was gorgeous but you can bet if I were to see them in real life again, I would walk the other way or if they saw me, I would exchange pleasantries, be polite and walk away. Unless they were single and I happened to WANT a casual hook up, in which case I would enjoy it and then never expect to hear from them again, if THAT was what I felt like. Which sure I may well do if I was without sex for ages and I felt I could switch off after they left.

The times I have done this ^^^ they have not been married and I fully knew that a relationship or dating would not eventuate, I used them just as they used me. I didn't expect daily texts after nor was I disappointed when they didn't blow up my phone over the following weeks and months.

Please just say no and don't let men do a number on you. Lose THEIR number instead and have a no contact policy. If you see these men who have the power to "play" with you, do not give them that power or opportunity. It is a choice.

You are not an innocent victim here, you LET yourself get swept away.

Just say no next time. Will power.

March 3, 2015

Just to clarify: he's not married. But he's in a relationship.

It's not as despicable as it is fifty shades of dumb. You wonder why you can't find a good, loving, relationship-minded man, then go off and make out with an unavailable man who knows exactly what to say to get what he wants and keep you on the line. You threw away your dignity, integrity and better judgment for a guy who said you were special. You haven't even seen him in a couple years and you were still willing to accept his advances? Maybe perhaps part of the reason men treat you cheaply is because you treat yourself that cheaply. You are a lovely person who deserves and is worthy of love, but you can't keep doing these fantastically dumb things and wonder why it's not working.

Dumb, despicable, terrible. Yes, you are right. Believe me I lost a lot of sleep and held a lot of bad feelings when I was in the thick of it years ago. It's one of the main reasons I feel ****ty about who I am at the core. To add onto that, I thought I was strong enough to resist it again, and I was fighting his advances... but caved, yes. Which makes me feel terrible all over again.

And your bolded part above is hard to swallow, but you are right on. I have treated myself cheaply with many of these people. And now it is clear as day that this is the reason why I have been single for years and unable to make a real connection, and am participating with men who are not good for me.

Do you do have low self worth because you participate in these things, or do you participate in these things because you have low self worth?

I think the blowback you're getting Venus is due to the way you're talking about this affair. If you owned your part in this, I think it'd be different. Instead, you let him touch you, "brush up against you," as if you had zero control. If you really wanted him to stop, you'd have looked him in the eye and said, dead serious, "knock it off." But no, it's almost as if you're like, "whoopsie! I dunno how that happened!" Yeah, right. To me, it sounds like you are trying to justify it, and that's what I think we're negatively reacting to.
I'm not saying none of us have ever had a lapse in integrity—we ALL have (for me, see above for just ONE example), but that doesn't effect our core beliefs about ourselves. To use "who would want someone like me" as an excuse to indulge in affairs or other crappy behavior is lame.

Thanks, losangelena. I wasn't trying to justify it. I think I was displacing the guilt I felt earlier. Yes, I take total responsibility for letting it happen.

I DID and have in the past looked him dead in the eye and said knock it off, once I even slapped him when he tried to kiss me. I've never initiated with him ever, but that doesn't matter because I still gave in.

I always have told him to stop, this isn't fair to me, I can't do this, this isn't right... stop bothering me, etc.

Over the past couple years since he left, he's occasionally messaged me and finally I told him to stop contacting me. He did, for awhile. Then he resurfaced and said hello. Then he showed up the other day. I was trying to be civil at the very least. When he offered to get me home, I thought that it would be harmless and if anything I was curious to talk with him. I didn't think he'd put the moves on me again. I put myself in the situation to be alone with him again not in the hopes that he would do that, but honestly because I was curious to talk to him about the things that we did; it was the only opportunity and I wanted some answers, I guess.

Dear god, Venus, I hope this is your rock bottom. It's time to stop with the lipservice and make some ACTUAL changes in your life.

No kidding. I feel like a pile of dirt. Unfortunately, my rock bottom was a couple years ago. I just revisited rock bottom over the weekend. It's over.

Venus, there's a common denominator that I haven't mentioned yet, but I have to ask - are you always drinking around these guys? Your dates seem to involve drinks or dinner with drinks. Did you drink around the cheater last night? Is alcohol possibly contributing to your bad judgment, craving for male validation, and, as you say, overtaking your common sense? If so, it's time for a talk.

This is a fair question. I'll put it this way: the other night, we were drunk, but not smashed by any means. With R, as a recent example, no... there were times that I would have a couple glasses of wine, once we did get drunk, yes. But to answer your question, I don't think so, if I'm totally honest with myself. Yes, it may lower my inhibitions, but for example with the cheater and with R... I would've still felt and acted the same way with them if I was completely or close to sober. I would still be attracted to them and still turn to mush by their pretty words and physical affections.

Meet different guys. Meet them different ways. Date in a different way. ...No sign of you taking any action steps yet. It seems like you're still waiting for your tall charmer to swoop in and save you from yourself even though your patterns are as clear as day - to us and to you.

Well, the first course of action in my opinion is to refrain from dating or actually meeting someone with someone, rather. It's been a couple of weeks and now my recent trip back to rock bottom.

I did reactivate another dating site that I used before... and haven't talked to anyone on there yet, actually. Until tonight. I saw someone I was interested in... based on his profile and what he wrote, and I thought he was attractive of course, so I think for the first time ever, I initiated conversation. I doubt he'll reply. Anyway, I think what I could do from NOW ON is to go after what I want and not just take whatever falls in my lap. (I had a very deep conversation about doing that with my best guy friend who finally found love after years and years of the same **** I go through).

It happens to you because they've already gotten sex from you and don't feel like pursuing you further. It's awkward, plus they don't want to end things and not have the option to see if they can have sex with you again in the future. Hence the crickets.

Well, the thing is...the ones who did the fade... never did come back. So I'm not sure about the 'having the option to see' comment. Because that's never happened. Even if the sex never happened, who's to say they wouldn't fade anyway? Seems almost just as likely! Just more of a risk, I get it and we've discussed this at length. It could also very well be if sex has nothing to do with it...they just weren't interested in me as a person. That's happened to me before too.

You know better. So, I ask again, what are you going to do about it? Words, words and more words. Again, what are you going to do to change this?

For now, as I said, refrain from actively dating. Go after what I want, not what someone throws at me. Take the power in my own hands. Deliberately give a chance to the reserved guys who don't put the moves on me, for a start. When the opportunity arises again, get to know someone, take it slow, avoid being physical for a good while. That's in the future though.

But for now.. take a break, and if I'm interested, not being afraid to put myself out there and not sit passively waiting for the right guy to find me. If I do that, I'm going to keep getting the frogs, right? Not wasting time on men who aren't actually interested in getting to know me and refrain from putting the moves on me is probably the #1 thing I will do differently.

You go for the superficial and project these qualities onto them. How could you possibly know if someone is honest, has integrity and a good work ethic, is loyal, dedicated and has respect for others and himself if you're getting drunk and jumping into bed on date 2?

Ok, fair enough. Going for the superficial, I admit I did that with R for sure.

But NOT fair to the getting drunk and jumping into bed on date 2 comment. As far as recently, where is that coming from?

Your passive language and blaming it all on him as if you had no say says you still don't take responsibility for your part in it. You could have had someone else accompany you home.

To my credit, I said 'no thank you' to his offer. He persisted explaining it was a long way and it was late. I do take responsibility for allowing it to happen. Not the walk, the other stuff.

To your credit, you are on the path toward change and you don't chase guys as much, but it's still hanging out and boozing with the ol' gang and expecting something to be different, somehow. You seem to want it to be different just by happening to you. You don't want to do the work to create a different life for yourself. This is frustrating for us to watch and I'm guessing it all goes back to low self-worth.

Right now, you're giving us lipservice about being in a semi-chosen celibate period, but you're passive about it. /QUOTE]
Well, yes, I don't WANT to be single. I think that is very clear. I am choosing to be alone right now, and to be honest, I'm enjoying it. Of course there's going to be another charmer who comes along. But I think I have a much better grip on picking them out and not so naïve, now being more skeptical and listening to my intuition than I ever used to. Also, I know that I've led with the physical attraction part, the superficial parts, and as gratifying as that can be for short periods of time... it sure doesn't make for a relationship. So this period is me becoming aware that almost everything I've been doing is the wrong way and why, how to change it.

This is really concerning to me. I feel like you've set it up where you're going to see the cheater again. I note you've said nothing about not being willing to talk to him again, and I don't understand why you've left that out unless you haven't ruled that out.
Venus, what will happen if you hear from the cheater? What will you do?
You are correct in that I didn't say to him that I'm not willing to talk to him again the other night, to him.
I have no intention to talk to him again, if he contacts me again, just like last time, I will tell him to not contact me anymore. If he comes into town again, I can be civil and friendly, again... but no, there is no chance that we've "set up" anything. No way in hell.

It's okay if you don't want to date right now, but I'd like you to define that time period and I'd like you to stick by that. And I'd like you to start providing solid actions that you can do differently when you are again ready to date.
I don't want to date right now. BUT I do want approach dating differently. That requires the introspection. You ask me to define that time period. A month or so? I wrote about the actions above. That's what I've come to so far. Need some more time to be sure. Which requires being alone for now.

March 3, 2015

I edited my long post and couldn't update due to the last post about stealing a penny from the candy store, which makes no sense. ? Here's the updated post:

It's not as despicable as it is fifty shades of dumb. You wonder why you can't find a good, loving, relationship-minded man, then go off and make out with an unavailable man who knows exactly what to say to get what he wants and keep you on the line. You threw away your dignity, integrity and better judgment for a guy who said you were special. You haven't even seen him in a couple years and you were still willing to accept his advances? Maybe perhaps part of the reason men treat you cheaply is because you treat yourself that cheaply. You are a lovely person who deserves and is worthy of love, but you can't keep doing these fantastically dumb things and wonder why it's not working.

Dumb, despicable, terrible. Yes, you are right. Believe me I lost a lot of sleep and held a lot of bad feelings when I was in the thick of it years ago. It's one of the main reasons I feel ****ty about who I am at the core. To add onto that, I thought I was strong enough to resist it again, and I was fighting his advances... but caved, yes. Which makes me feel terrible all over again.

And your bolded part above is hard to swallow, but you are right on. I have treated myself cheaply with many of these people. And now it is clear as day that this is the reason why I have been single for years and unable to make a real connection, and am participating with men who are not good for me. I wonder why I can't make a connection, when I have encountered it, I felt unworthy of it. I gravitate towards people who reinforce my low self worth (therapist's insight right there).

Do you do have low self worth because you participate in these things, or do you participate in these things because you have low self worth?
I think the blowback you're getting Venus is due to the way you're talking about this affair. If you owned your part in this, I think it'd be different. Instead, you let him touch you, "brush up against you," as if you had zero control. If you really wanted him to stop, you'd have looked him in the eye and said, dead serious, "knock it off." But no, it's almost as if you're like, "whoopsie! I dunno how that happened!" Yeah, right. To me, it sounds like you are trying to justify it, and that's what I think we're negatively reacting to.
I'm not saying none of us have ever had a lapse in integrity—we ALL have (for me, see above for just ONE example), but that doesn't effect our core beliefs about ourselves. To use "who would want someone like me" as an excuse to indulge in affairs or other crappy behavior is lame.

Thanks, losangelena for posting about what you went through. I appreciate you relating. I think I participate in this (and other less than good situations) because I do have low self worth. I haven't been treated well by very many men that I've encountered, very few have been good and worthy men.

I wasn't trying to justify what happened I think I was displacing the guilt I felt earlier. Yes, I take total responsibility for letting it happen.

I DID and have in the past looked him dead in the eye and said knock it off, once I even slapped him when he tried to kiss me. I've never initiated with him ever, but that doesn't matter because I still gave in. It doesn't matter the words I say...it matters what I do. And here, I gave in!

I always have told him to stop, this isn't fair to me, I can't do this, this isn't right... stop bothering me, etc.

Over the past couple years since he left, he's occasionally messaged me and finally I told him to stop contacting me. He did, for awhile. Then he resurfaced and said hello. Then he showed up the other day. I was trying to be civil at the very least. When he offered to get me home, I really did think that it would be harmless and if anything I was curious to talk with him. I didn't think he'd put the moves on me again like that. I put myself in the situation to be alone with him again not in the hopes that he would do that, but honestly because I was curious to talk to him about the things that we did; it was the only opportunity and I wanted some answers. Tbh, I really wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. I was kind of hoping he would open up and apologize for what happened before, and for leaving, or that he came to some revelation he wanted to share with me. Nope, he just wanted something selfish.

Dear god, Venus, I hope this is your rock bottom. It's time to stop with the lipservice and make some ACTUAL changes in your life.

No kidding. I feel like a pile of dirt. Unfortunately, my rock bottom was a couple years ago. I just revisited rock bottom over the weekend. I never wanted to go back there again.

Venus, there's a common denominator that I haven't mentioned yet, but I have to ask - are you always drinking around these guys? Your dates seem to involve drinks or dinner with drinks. Did you drink around the cheater last night? Is alcohol possibly contributing to your bad judgment, craving for male validation, and, as you say, overtaking your common sense? If so, it's time for a talk.

This is a fair question. I'll put it this way: the other night, we were drunk, but not smashed by any means. With R, as a recent example, no... there were times that I would have a drink or two, one date we were sober, once or twice we were drinking. But to answer your question, I don't think so, if I'm totally honest with myself. Yes, it may lower my inhibitions, but for example with the cheater and with R... I would've still felt and acted the same way with them if I was completely or close to sober. I would still be attracted to them and still turn to mush by their pretty words and physical affections.

Meet different guys. Meet them different ways. Date in a different way. ...No sign of you taking any action steps yet. It seems like you're still waiting for your tall charmer to swoop in and save you from yourself even though your patterns are as clear as day - to us and to you.

I can't take any action steps yet because the first course of action in my opinion is to refrain from dating or actually meeting someone with someone, rather. It's only been a couple of weeks and now my recent trip back to rock bottom makes me realize I'm not in the right mindset at all. In fact, since Vday with R, I've been pretty damn depressed and in no state to get back out there.

I did reactivate another dating site that I used before... and haven't talked to anyone on there yet, actually. Until tonight. I saw someone I was interested in... based on his profile and what he wrote, and I thought he was attractive of course, so I think for the first time ever, I initiated conversation. I doubt he'll reply. Anyway, I think what I could do from NOW ON is to go after what I want and not just take whatever falls in my lap. (I had a very deep conversation about doing that with my best guy friend who finally found love after years and years of the same crap I've put myself through).

It happens to you because they've already gotten sex from you and don't feel like pursuing you further. It's awkward, plus they don't want to end things and not have the option to see if they can have sex with you again in the future. Hence the crickets.

Well, the thing is...the ones who did the fade... never did come back. So I'm not sure about the 'having the option to see' comment. Because that's never happened. Even if the sex never happened, who's to say they wouldn't fade anyway? Seems almost just as likely! Just more of a risk, I get it and we've discussed this at length. It could also very well be if sex has nothing to do with it...they just weren't interested in me as a person. That's happened to me before too.

You know better. So, I ask again, what are you going to do about it? Words, words and more words. Again, what are you going to do to change this?

For now, as I said, refrain from actively dating. Go after what I want, not what someone throws at me. Take the power in my own hands. Deliberately give a chance to the reserved guys who don't put the moves on me, for a start. When the opportunity arises again, get to know someone, take it slow, avoid being physical for a good while. That's in the future though.

But for now.. take a break, and if I'm interested, not being afraid to put myself out there and not sit passively waiting for the right guy to find me. If I do that, I'm going to keep getting the frogs, right? Not wasting time on men who aren't actually interested in getting to know me and who are always putting the moves on me is probably the #1 thing I will do differently.

You go for the superficial and project these qualities onto them. How could you possibly know if someone is honest, has integrity and a good work ethic, is loyal, dedicated and has respect for others and himself if you're getting drunk and jumping into bed on date 2?

Ok, fair enough. Can you explain, 'going for the superficial, I project those qualities onto them'??

Is this what you mean? Like with R?

That was rooted in sexual attraction. You know what? I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. I always want to give people the benefit of the doubt. I think it's ok to know that a guy is interested in you sexually. I knew this about R. I just wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt that he also wanted to get to know me as a person. Turns out he didn't want to get to know me that well. That's his loss, not mine. How did I project those qualities? By acting superficially? I'm confused by this.

But NOT fair to the getting drunk and jumping into bed on date 2 comment. As far as recently, where is that coming from??

Your passive language and blaming it all on him as if you had no say says you still don't take responsibility for your part in it. You could have had someone else accompany you home.

To my credit, I initially said 'no thank you' to his offer. He persisted explaining it was a long way and it was late. I do take responsibility for allowing it to happen. Not the walk, the other stuff.

To your credit, you are on the path toward change and you don't chase guys as much, but it's still hanging out and boozing with the ol' gang and expecting something to be different, somehow. You seem to want it to be different just by happening to you. You don't want to do the work to create a different life for yourself. This is frustrating for us to watch and I'm guessing it all goes back to low self-worth.

Right now, you're giving us lipservice about being in a semi-chosen celibate period, but you're passive about it.

Well, yes, I don't WANT to be single. I think that is very clear. I am choosing to be alone right now, and to be honest, I'm enjoying it. Of course there's going to be another charmer who comes along. But I think I have a much better grip on picking them out and not so naïve, now being more skeptical and listening to my intuition than I ever used to. Also, I know that I've led with the physical attraction part, the superficial parts, and as gratifying as that can be for short periods of time... it sure doesn't make for a relationship. So this period is me becoming aware that almost everything I've been doing is the wrong way and why, how to change it.

This is really concerning to me. I feel like you've set it up where you're going to see the cheater again. I note you've said nothing about not being willing to talk to him again, and I don't understand why you've left that out unless you haven't ruled that out.
Venus, what will happen if you hear from the cheater? What will you do?

You are correct in that I didn't say to him that I'm not willing to talk to him again the other night, to him.

I have no intention to talk to him again, if he contacts me again, just like last time, I will tell him to not contact me anymore. If he comes into town again, I can be civil and friendly, again... but no, there is no chance that we've "set up" anything. No way in hell.

It's okay if you don't want to date right now, but I'd like you to define that time period and I'd like you to stick by that. And I'd like you to start providing solid actions that you can do differently when you are again ready to date.

I don't want to date right now. BUT I do want approach dating differently. That requires the introspection. You ask me to define that time period. A month or so? I wrote about the actions above. That's what I've come to so far. Need some more time to be sure. Which requires being alone for the time being.

Edited March 3, 2015 by venusishername

March 3, 2015

Venus, I am going to push you. You are distancing yourself, becoming defensive and stubborn, and contradicting yourself all over the place, and this is part of your pattern that keeps you stuck.

You can choose to be offended by the straight talk in here, or you can take it as constructive criticism intended to propel you into forward progress.

Dumb, despicable, terrible. Yes, you are right. Believe me I lost a lot of sleep and held a lot of bad feelings when I was in the thick of it years ago. It's one of the main reasons I feel ****ty about who I am at the core. To add onto that, I thought I was strong enough to resist it again, and I was fighting his advances... but caved, yes. Which makes me feel terrible all over again.

What happened years ago is done and isn't very relevant here. You're using it to skirt around your choices of just the other night. Your language (bolded) about your choices from the other night is still entirely passive. You have yet to put a sentence together with the word "I" and an action verb to describe your choices.

I haven't been treated well by very many men that I've encountered, very few have been good and worthy men.

You give off signs of low self-worth and you attract men who want to take advantage of it, and you're attracted and receptive to those men. So what are you going to do to change the core of the problem?

You discuss going after guys that you want from now on, but I don't think the answer is that simple.

First, I'm not sure you can trust your attraction. It is based on the superficial and projecting deeper personality characteristics onto these men. So, sure, go after the guys you want, but aren't they going to be the same ones you've been dating all along?

Second, it doesn't work the same for guys and girls. Your male friend pursued the women he wanted. So you, who goes for alpha males who have their pick of the women, want to pursue those guys and think that's going to go well? This would be entirely different advice if you were attracted to a different sort of man, but you aren't. You are attracted to ones who like to pursue and like a challenge. Going after them won't work. So either you have to go after different men, or abandon the thinking that this will work for you.

Your attraction patterns and your low self-worth are what you need to be working on. Both are things within you and both do not require seeing men in order to work on them.

I wasn't trying to justify what happened I think I was displacing the guilt I felt earlier. Yes, I take total responsibility for letting it happen.

"Letting" what "happen", Venus? All I want from you is a statement sentence with action verbs about your choices the other night that indicates taking responsibility for your choices for yourself.

I DID and have in the past looked him dead in the eye and said knock it off, once I even slapped him when he tried to kiss me. I've never initiated with him ever, but that doesn't matter because I still gave in. It doesn't matter the words I say...it matters what I do. And here, I gave in!
I always have told him to stop, this isn't fair to me, I can't do this, this isn't right... stop bothering me, etc.

Stop bringing up the past. Here you are, years later, supposedly more self-aware and learning what you do and do not want for yourself and supposedly standing up for how you want to be treated, and you caved and went for more of your drug from the worst possible source.

Over the past couple years since he left, he's occasionally messaged me and finally I told him to stop contacting me. He did, for awhile.

They make these things called filters and blocking. You are not at his mercy. You do not have to rely on him to leave you alone. But there's a part of you that likes that he finds you so irresistible that he just can't help it. You get validation out of that, rather than understanding that he sees you as an easy target.

Then he resurfaced and said hello.

When did he say hello? Recently? You didn't tell us about that. Was the interaction the other night planned?

Then he showed up the other day. I was trying to be civil at the very least.

Why do you need to be civil?

When he offered to get me home, I really did think that it would be harmless and if anything I was curious to talk with him.

You did not think it was harmless. Get real.

I didn't think he'd put the moves on me again like that.

But you were hoping he would...

I put myself in the situation to be alone with him again not in the hopes that he would do that, but honestly because I was curious to talk to him about the things that we did; it was the only opportunity and I wanted some answers.

Total BS, Venus. What answers did you need?

Tbh, I really wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. I was kind of hoping he would open up and apologize for what happened before, and for leaving, or that he came to some revelation he wanted to share with me.

More BS. What revelation were you hoping for? Something about how irresistible you are?

Nope, he just wanted something selfish.

He wasn't the only one.

No kidding. I feel like a pile of dirt. Unfortunately, my rock bottom was a couple years ago. I just revisited rock bottom over the weekend. I never wanted to go back there again.

Here we go again. Whenever you start to get somewhere, you bring up the past as a way to avoid facing yourself in the present.

We get it. You had some LTRs that didn't work out. You cheated with a cheater. You spent some time single. You don't need to bring up the past anymore, because by now you should be grasping your patterns and it's really about your choices in the present day.

This is a fair question. I'll put it this way: the other night, we were drunk, but not smashed by any means. With R, as a recent example, no... there were times that I would have a drink or two, one date we were sober, once or twice we were drinking. But to answer your question, I don't think so, if I'm totally honest with myself. Yes, it may lower my inhibitions, but for example with the cheater and with R... I would've still felt and acted the same way with them if I was completely or close to sober. I would still be attracted to them and still turn to mush by their pretty words and physical affections.

I still question your relationship to alcohol. You describe it in the same flowery terms you use to describe your tall charmers and sex. You made the choice to text and pursue R after a boozy dinner with your friend. Being around the cheater involved alcohol. I only know what you tell us but I'm seeing a pattern.

Alcohol lowers inhibitions and allows long held emotional distortions to become the drivers in behavior. You are (supposed to be!) fighting off your instincts when it comes to men, because you've discovered they actually prevent you from getting what you want. You can't say you would make the same choices as you do if you weren't drinking, because you haven't tried to meet men when you/they weren't drinking.

Does drinking around men serve you well?

I can't take any action steps yet because the first course of action in my opinion is to refrain from dating or actually meeting someone with someone, rather.

You most certainly can take actions steps about YOU. You choose not to.

It's only been a couple of weeks and now my recent trip back to rock bottom makes me realize I'm not in the right mindset at all. In fact, since Vday with R, I've been pretty damn depressed and in no state to get back out there.

Of course you're depressed, you're in withdrawal.

Don't say you're not dating unless it is an active choice of yours and you are using the time wisely. I see more of you biding time until the next Prince Charming comes along.

What are you working on about yourself? What are you doing now that you are aware of your low self-worth? What are you doing about your pattern of attraction to charming egoistic men and a perceived correlation to issues with your father? What are you doing? You don't talk about anything regarding self-improvement so it really looks like you are merely providing lip service and are biding your time.

I did reactivate another dating site that I used before...

And here's an example of contradictions between your words and actions. You've stated you aren't dating, passively and actively, yet you're activating a dating site and are not even noticing that you are acting in ways that contradict what you are saying you are doing.

and haven't talked to anyone on there yet, actually. Until tonight. I saw someone I was interested in... based on his profile and what he wrote, and I thought he was attractive of course, so I think for the first time ever, I initiated conversation.

What did he write that made you choose him?

I doubt he'll reply.

Oh stop.

Anyway, I think what I could do from NOW ON is to go after what I want and not just take whatever falls in my lap. (I had a very deep conversation about doing that with my best guy friend who finally found love after years and years of the same crap I've put myself through).

As I addressed above, there are inherent problems in this approach.It simply will not work unless you address who you are attracted to.

Well, the thing is...the ones who did the fade... never did come back. So I'm not sure about the 'having the option to see' comment. Because that's never happened.

And you are seemingly very hurt by the fact that they don't come back. You want them to think it over, remind themselves of how irresistible you are, and come back. Why does it matter?

People don't like conflict, and, as I said before, they don't want to ruin their chances should they want sex with you in the future. Whether they choose to pursue you again is irrelevant.

Even if the sex never happened, who's to say they wouldn't fade anyway? Seems almost just as likely! Just more of a risk, I get it and we've discussed this at length. It could also very well be if sex has nothing to do with it...they just weren't interested in me as a person. That's happened to me before too.

Yup, but your dating style includes early sex and your dating style is a problem. Don't do your usual mental gymnastics to try to distance yourself from that.

For now, as I said, refrain from actively dating.

Why are you on a dating site, then? That indicates you are soliciting dates.

Go after what I want, not what someone throws at me. Take the power in my own hands.

Until you recognize your emotional distortions and how they filter who you are attracted to, this isn't going to help.

Deliberately give a chance to the reserved guys who don't put the moves on me, for a start.

How are you going to give them a chance if they're not putting the moves on you and if you're not attracted to this type enough to pursue them?

When the opportunity arises again, get to know someone, take it slow, avoid being physical for a good while. That's in the future though.

This is a good action step.

But why are you on a dating site if it's in the future? Are you or are you not dating? To me, talking to men and indicating your availability for dates means that you are dating. And talking to guys allows you to get your drug when they tell you how pretty and sexy you are.

But for now.. take a break, and if I'm interested, not being afraid to put myself out there and not sit passively waiting for the right guy to find me. If I do that, I'm going to keep getting the frogs, right?

Until you heal yourself, the frogs are still who you are attracted to.

Not wasting time on men who aren't actually interested in getting to know me and who are always putting the moves on me is probably the #1 thing I will do differently.

But if they're putting the moves on you, historically you act out of superficial attraction and you act quickly. If a guy you find handsome and charming is hitting on you, what will you do?

Ok, fair enough. Can you explain, 'going for the superficial, I project those qualities onto them'??

Sure. You talk about superficial qualities about the men you're dating. The qualities you list require one thing to know whether or not a guy has them: time. Because you move quickly, you act on attraction to the superficial, and write paragraphs and paragraphs justifying to yourself about how they obviously have those deeper qualities, despite actions and treatment of you that contradict those qualities.

Unless you slow it the hell down and get to know a guy outside the bedroom, you've no clue about those inner qualities. You can't trust what comes out of their mouth about themselves, you can't trust words on a dating profile. Any idiot knows he's got to make the ladies feel safe with him to get what he wants. You need time to weed these guys out from the ones who actually want more and want it with you.

That was rooted in sexual attraction. You know what? I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. I always want to give people the benefit of the doubt.

You want to give handsome men the benefit of the doubt. You are distrustful in other areas of your life. Another total disconnect coming from you.

I think it's ok to know that a guy is interested in you sexually.

I didn't say it wasn't. The problem is that you take this information, use it to fill yourself up and validate yourself, and start being Hector Projector about what a wonderful person he clearly is.

If you could see that sexual attraction is just sexual attraction and not use it as more than that, then yes, it is harmless. For you, it is a signal to start up your pattern, and it is up to you (and only you) to stop your pattern.

I knew this about R. I just wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt that he also wanted to get to know me as a person.

Disconnect, Venus. You used sex as a way to emotionally tie him to you so that he would want to get to know you as a person.

Turns out he didn't want to get to know me that well. That's his loss, not mine.

Ah, yes. Another charming Venus quality - the use of cultural platitudes as if she isn't bothered. You were hurt by R. The evidence is right there in your other messages. Who is this person spouting off "his loss, not mine"? Because it's someone preventing Venus from getting real with herself.

How did I project those qualities? By acting superficially? I'm confused by this.

You can find this out by reading above. But mostly, guys are picking up on your low self-worth. They pick up that you are energized and drawn to them when they comment on the superficial about you.

But NOT fair to the getting drunk and jumping into bed on date 2 comment. As far as recently, where is that coming from??

I said this in regard to your pattern. And you still chose to sleep with R early on, prior to any commitment or exclusivity.

To my credit, I initially said 'no thank you' to his offer. He persisted explaining it was a long way and it was late. I do take responsibility for allowing it to happen. Not the walk, the other stuff.

So now he knows all he has to do is persist and you'll do what he wants.

What "other stuff", Venus? I'm noting that you aren't saying you didn't sleep with him. Did you? Yes/No.

Well, yes, I don't WANT to be single. I think that is very clear.

More BS, Venus. If you're choosing to be single, why are you on a dating site and why are you making out with a guy who is cheating on his girlfriend? Those aren't the actions of a woman choosing to be single.

I am choosing to be alone right now, and to be honest, I'm enjoying it.

Like hell you're enjoying it. More BS. You said in another of your responses in this very message that you were/are depressed about R. Jeez, at least contradict yourself in separate messages, not the same one.

Of course there's going to be another charmer who comes along.

What will you do when this happens? By now you've noticed that charmers are your weakness, and that you don't get what you want from them. What will you do?

But I think I have a much better grip on picking them out and not so naïve, now being more skeptical and listening to my intuition than I ever used to.

Picking them? We were talking about the next charmer picking you.

A tall charming guy approaches you with pretty words about your looks and your desirability. What do you do?

Also, I know that I've led with the physical attraction part, the superficial parts, and as gratifying as that can be for short periods of time... it sure doesn't make for a relationship. So this period is me becoming aware that almost everything I've been doing is the wrong way and why, how to change it.

Forgive me, Venus, but what are you doing for yourself to address how everything you've been doing is the wrong way and why, and how to change it? Because I see you sitting around, alternating between depression because of your withdrawal, and then feigning empowerment. You're waiting for the next guy to save you.

Your self-worth is so low that you refuse to work on yourself, not understanding that this makes your self-worth even lower. What are you doing for yourself?

And, as I've said, you are very clearly not choosing to be single if you're on a dating site and if you're making out with a guy who is cheating on his girlfriend.

You are correct in that I didn't say to him that I'm not willing to talk to him again the other night, to him.

And that's a pretty big deal that you didn't. It's practically an engraved invitation to a guy like this.

I have no intention to talk to him again, if he contacts me again, just like last time, I will tell him to not contact me anymore. If he comes into town again, I can be civil and friendly, again... but no, there is no chance that we've "set up" anything. No way in hell.

Why aren't you blocking him and filtering his messages, then? Why are you allowing him the power to choose or not choose you? Because you want the fix of him choosing you, right?

I don't want to date right now.

Then why are you on a dating site and making out with a guy? You should be in male-validation detox and focusing on yourself.

BUT I do want approach dating differently. That requires the introspection. You ask me to define that time period. A month or so? I wrote about the actions above. That's what I've come to so far. Need some more time to be sure. Which requires being alone for the time being.

So far I don't see you choosing to be alone.

What are you going to do about the dating site? What are you going to do about the cheater?

Are you going to detox from male validation until early April, then?

Edited March 3, 2015 by idoltree

March 3, 2015

Venus, I am going to push you. You are distancing yourself, becoming defensive and stubborn, and contradicting yourself all over the place, and this is part of your pattern that keeps you stuck.

Ok, thank you. I will do my best to answer your questions, although many are rhetorical, it would do me good to address them.

You can choose to be offended by the straight talk in here, or you can take it as constructive criticism intended to propel you into forward progress.

I will take the constructive criticism. I won't take complete responsibility for every disappointment though. There are two people involved in my situations... it's my actions and thought processes along with another person's so I can't shoulder all the blame here.

What happened years ago is done and isn't very relevant here. You're using it to skirt around your choices of just the other night. Your language (bolded) about your choices from the other night is still entirely passive. You have yet to put a sentence together with the word "I" and an action verb to describe your choices.

I did not initiate what happened the other night. However, I allowed him to touch and kiss me. The walk home is irrelevant and harmless. It's a walk. Per usual, he grabs me and kisses me, so it took me by surprise. But what I did do is let it continue.

You give off signs of low self-worth and you attract men who want to take advantage of it, and you're attracted and receptive to those men. So what are you going to do to change the core of the problem?

Work on my sense of worth? Stop being so receptive to those types of men who want to take advantage of that, and instead gravitating towards the ones who don't.

First, I'm not sure you can trust your attraction. It is based on the superficial and projecting deeper personality characteristics onto these men. So, sure, go after the guys you want, but aren't they going to be the same ones you've been dating all along?

Maybe.

So you, who goes for alpha males who have their pick of the women, want to pursue those guys and think that's going to go well? This would be entirely different advice if you were attracted to a different sort of man, but you aren't. You are attracted to ones who like to pursue and like a challenge. Going after them won't work. So either you have to go after different men, or abandon the thinking that this will work for you.

I think I'll abandon the thinking that I'll pursue the alpha guys... not that I ever have. It's ok that I'm attracted to alpha males... that's not going to change. Alpha =/= jerk.

Your attraction patterns and your low self-worth are what you need to be working on. Both are things within you and both do not require seeing men in order to work on them

They make these things called filters and blocking. You are not at his mercy. You do not have to rely on him to leave you alone. But there's a part of you that likes that he finds you so irresistible that he just can't help it. You get validation out of that, rather than understanding that he sees you as an easy target.

When did he say hello? Recently? You didn't tell us about that. Was the interaction the other night planned?

No. He contacted me about a year ago. Let go of the notion that we ever planned this because the answer is NO.

More BS. What revelation were you hoping for? Something about how irresistible you are?

No. That he's sorry for the way he's treated me.

I still question your relationship to alcohol. You describe it in the same flowery terms you use to describe your tall charmers and sex. You made the choice to text and pursue R after a boozy dinner with your friend. Being around the cheater involved alcohol. I only know what you tell us but I'm seeing a pattern.
Alcohol lowers inhibitions and allows long held emotional distortions to become the drivers in behavior. You are (supposed to be!) fighting off your instincts when it comes to men, because you've discovered they actually prevent you from getting what you want. You can't say you would make the same choices as you do if you weren't drinking, because you haven't tried to meet men when you/they weren't drinking.

Of course you're depressed, you're in withdrawal.

I am severely depressed. Days are going by that I don't wash my hair or put on makeup... which is unusual for me because I'm almost always perfectly put together and polished. I'm up late at night and sleep in late on the weekends, rushing to work.

Don't say you're not dating unless it is an active choice of yours and you are using the time wisely. I see more of you biding time until the next Prince Charming comes along.

I know you don't believe me, but I DO want to take a break. Prince Charming will be back, there is no doubt. If I don't withdraw now, I'll be more susceptible to falling back into the old patterns that don't work.

What are you working on about yourself? What are you doing now that you are aware of your low self-worth? What are you doing about your pattern of attraction to charming egoistic men and a perceived correlation to issues with your father? What are you doing? You don't talk about anything regarding self-improvement so it really looks like you are merely providing lip service and are biding your time.

You say I'm biding time just because no one has approached me and pursued me though.

I believe I have discussed my self-improvement here. I go to the therapist. I need to go more often lately, that's for sure. I'm going to hot yoga regularly which gives me some meditation time, exercising.. more meditation time....cutting way back on situations that involve "boozing" as you call it (I drink only once or twice per week, by the way). Talking it out with trusted family and friends. Writing about it here. Reading some self-improvement books I've picked up... one that you have suggested, "Attached".

Is this sufficient?

What did he write that made you choose him?

The pictures that he posted showed him doing activities that would indicate that he's a person with depth, active, photos with his family members and dog. Not selfies and group photos with a bunch of people partying. He wrote about being a family man and his dedication to his career and aspirations, and his upbringing. The boy next door-type. That's what I REALLY want, deep down. I don't want the player, the ladies man. I want the boy next door. I am VERY attracted to that kind of man. The boys next door are typically the shy guys who don't often schmooz women, aren't they??! Whaddaya know....

And... I was right... he didn't reply but I see that he visited me several times. This is why I don't pursue, because the ones I've ever pursued don't reciprocate.

And you are seemingly very hurt by the fact that they don't come back. You want them to think it over, remind themselves of how irresistible you are, and come back. Why does it matter?

Because I don't like to get tossed aside like I mean nothing. It only confirms my feelings of low self worth.

Like with R...yes, I AM very hurt by the fact that he never contacted me again. I feel completely used and only good for one thing. Like, I was good enough to pursue for sex, but that's it. I want to believe that I have more going for me than that. But... yes, I realize this is an internal thing, not external.

How are you going to give them a chance if they're not putting the moves on you and if you're not attracted to this type enough to pursue them?

I'm talking about putting "THE MOVES" on me like R did, and the players do. Like A, and M... they never put the moves on me and they weren't the player type at all.

But why are you on a dating site if it's in the future? Are you or are you not dating? To me, talking to men and indicating your availability for dates means that you are dating. And talking to guys allows you to get your drug when they tell you how pretty and sexy you are.

I don't consider this dating. Dating is actively going out with someone on more than one occasion. Chatting with someone behind a screen is not dating. It means I am open to dating in the near future.

But if they're putting the moves on you, historically you act out of superficial attraction and you act quickly. If a guy you find handsome and charming is hitting on you, what will you do?

Smile and talk to him. If I like him, agree to give him my number. Pretty simple stuff. I think what you mean is what will I NOT do?

Sure. You talk about superficial qualities about the men you're dating. The qualities you list require one thing to know whether or not a guy has them: time. Because you move quickly, you act on attraction to the superficial, and write paragraphs and paragraphs justifying to yourself about how they obviously have those deeper qualities, despite actions and treatment of you that contradict those qualities.

You are right... time. I want to believe everyone has these qualities, but the hard fact is that just isn't true. And there's no way to do that if I'm focusing on the superficial. Hey, maybe that's why some of the guys fade out on me. Because they're not willing to put in the time and just go for the instant gratification, just like I do.

Unless you slow it the hell down and get to know a guy outside the bedroom, you've no clue about those inner qualities. You can't trust what comes out of their mouth about themselves, you can't trust words on a dating profile. Any idiot knows he's got to make the ladies feel safe with him to get what he wants. You need time to weed these guys out from the ones who actually want more and want it with you.

The same can be said for all people; the way you write it makes it sound like I'm the one who is forcing and rushing; whereas many, many times, actually nearly all the time, it's the men who are rushing and coming on super strong!!

I completely agree with you. Time.

I tend to rush because because I am impatient, it fulfills the 'need' and I want to give the benefit of the doubt to each person I see as a potential.

I know you don't think A is all that great. But I will say that he and I spent plenty of time outside the bedroom getting to know each other and it was very nice. I think he was probably one of the most honest and good guys I've been with. Even though he faded out without a word, he did possess many of those good qualities that I find essential.

You want to give handsome men the benefit of the doubt. You are distrustful in other areas of your life. Another total disconnect coming from you.

How am I distrustful in other areas of my life? Which areas? Because I feel I am only distrusting with men and dating, and well... sometimes myself.

I didn't say it wasn't. The problem is that you take this information, use it to fill yourself up and validate yourself, and start being Hector Projector about what a wonderful person he clearly is.

"He"?? Who is "he"? Who did I say is such a wonderful person?

Disconnect, Venus. You used sex as a way to emotionally tie him to you so that he would want to get to know you as a person.

I did? I think I had sex because I was really attracted to him.

Ah, yes. Another charming Venus quality - the use of cultural platitudes as if she isn't bothered. You were hurt by R. The evidence is right there in your other messages. Who is this person spouting off "his loss, not mine"? Because it's someone preventing Venus from getting real with herself.

No, believe me... I'm very hurt. I was completely tossed aside as soon as I made it clear as day that I wanted more than this casual ****. Maybe that was coincidence. But either way, he was gone like the wind. Of course I'm hurt. But I believe it is his loss, not mine. I'm not trying to be 'cool'. It's the truth!

You can find this out by reading above. But mostly, guys are picking up on your low self-worth. They pick up that you are energized and drawn to them when they comment on the superficial about you.

And you still chose to sleep with R early on, prior to any commitment or exclusivity.

That is correct. That doesn't mean "getting drunk and jumping into bed on date 2". I have never waited until exclusivity before sex. The conversation has always occurred after sex has already happened.

I've been acting 'casually' when I want something serious. I GET IT. It's not working out. THAT is what I can change.

What "other stuff", Venus? I'm noting that you aren't saying you didn't sleep with him. Did you? Yes/No.

The answer to your question is NO. The "other stuff" means making out.

More BS, Venus. If you're choosing to be single, why are you on a dating site and why are you making out with a guy who is cheating on his girlfriend? Those aren't the actions of a woman choosing to be single.

Like hell you're enjoying it. More BS. You said in another of your responses in this very message that you were/are depressed about R. Jeez, at least contradict yourself in separate messages, not the same one.

What will you do when this happens? By now you've noticed that charmers are your weakness, and that you don't get what you want from them. What will you do?

Not get excited about it until time has passed.

A tall charming guy approaches you with pretty words about your looks and your desirability. What do you do?

I'll say it one more time: smile, engage in conversation, and agree to give him my number. Same as always.

Forgive me, Venus, but what are you doing for yourself to address how everything you've been doing is the wrong way and why, and how to change it? Because I see you sitting around, alternating between depression because of your withdrawal, and then feigning empowerment. You're waiting for the next guy to save you.

Your self-worth is so low that you refuse to work on yourself, not understanding that this makes your self-worth even lower. What are you doing for yourself?

See the above. How many times are you going to ask me this?

And, as I've said, you are very clearly not choosing to be single if you're on a dating site and if you're making out with a guy who is cheating on his girlfriend.

Well, to me that's as single as you can possibly be!

And that's a pretty big deal that you didn't. It's practically an engraved invitation to a guy like this.

What good what it do for me to SAY it, if I didn't DO it? Words mean nothing, don't you agree?

Why aren't you blocking him and filtering his messages, then? Why are you allowing him the power to choose or not choose you? Because you want the fix of him choosing you, right?

No. Honestly I don't know how to filter messages. If I blocked, it would look extremely suspicious.

So far I don't see you choosing to be alone.

Oh? I could be meeting up with Tom Dick or Harry from Tinder, or throwing myself at R but I'm not doing that. I'm alone.

What are you going to do about the dating site? What are you going to do about the cheater?

I'm going to continue to look and perhaps communicate with people from the dating site if I feel like chatting with them. I'm not going to meet with anyone anytime soon.

As far as the cheater: nothing. We don't communicate. If he tries, I will tell him to stop contacting me, just like before.

Are you going to detox from male validation until early April, then?

Yes, that's the plan. What difference does it make if it's a month, 6 months, 5 years?? Why are you asking for a time frame?

Edited March 4, 2015 by venusishername

March 4, 2015

I feel like continuing casually on dating sites is exactly what you should be doing. Only communicating and meeting those who clearly state they're looking for a relationship on their profile.

March 4, 2015

I feel like continuing casually on dating sites is exactly what you should be doing. Only communicating and meeting those who clearly state they're looking for a relationship on their profile.

Ok, but we discussed this at length in this thread and it doesn't seem like much of a solution. What if someone chooses to leave that part out but actually is looking for a relationship (like your's truly used to do!!!)

What about in real life (which is where I meet 90% of the men I date anyway)?

Didn't we agree that words mean very little? I mean, I think you can generally sense if someone is serious or not, or just looking to screw around.

Ha, back on Tinder... just browsing... someone keeps persisting over and over, I told him in the past 'no' to his invitations because that's when I was seeing someone (A), then ®... and I deleted my profile. Each time I reactivate it, we match and he contacts me. He says he's looking for something serious. I guess I can at least talk to him, then? I'm not ready to actually meet though.

Edited March 4, 2015 by venusishername

March 4, 2015

I guess I can at least talk to him, then? I'm not ready to actually meet though.

If you want to keep perpetuating your cycle, sure.

I'm sure there's a "block" function on Tinder, no?

Who in the flying f*ck cares if this guy is "persistent?" Sure it's all lols and hahahas now, but what about in another six weeks when you've met him, slept with him, had several awkward back and forths, and he drops out again?

Stop the madness, Venus. Lay off for now. Just don't even engage with him. If he ALWAYS does this, he'll be back again when you're in a better place.

March 4, 2015

If you want to keep perpetuating your cycle, sure.
I'm sure there's a "block" function on Tinder, no?
Who in the flying f*ck cares if this guy is "persistent?" Sure it's all lols and hahahas now, but what about in another six weeks when you've met him, slept with him, had several awkward back and forths, and he drops out again?
Stop the madness, Venus. Lay off for now. Just don't even engage with him. If he ALWAYS does this, he'll be back again when you're in a better place.

That's not very encouraging. Why would you automatically assume that would happen again, after all this?! The 41 pages of all this? Do you really think I would just repeat the same thing over and over? I'm pretty damn sure I've grasped what I need to do differently and establish that someone is on exactly the same page as I am.

I have to eventually put myself out there to be available to talk to someone. Why not talk?

March 4, 2015

I just don't really see that sort of persistence as a good sign. A relationship minded, respectful guy wouldn't keep bugging a woman who'd declined to meet him, in my mind. But a guy who is looking to get laid, would.

In terms of online dating, if they don't have "looking for a relationship" in their profile, they're not looking for a relationship. I know that stuff is listed on tindr, which is maybe why you should be using different types of sites.

I find myself wondering what sort of pictures you have up of yourself. They're not suggestive photos, are they? if so get rid of those, they send a bad message.

Edited March 4, 2015 by lissvarna

March 4, 2015

That's not very encouraging. Why would you automatically assume that would happen again, after all this?! The 41 pages of all this? Do you really think I would just repeat the same thing over and over? I'm pretty damn sure I've grasped what I need to do differently and establish that someone is on exactly the same page as I am.
I have to eventually put myself out there to be available to talk to someone. Why not talk?

I didn't quite mean it that way, so forgive me if it came off that way.

I'm not assuming that's what's going to happen, Venus. I will say though that, several times now, what starts off as just harmless fun turns into another disappointing venture.

If you feel you're ready to implement all the things you say you've learned over the last 42 pages of thread, then by all means, chat it up with this fella. Though, I agree with lissvarna that a guy who's hounding you on Tinder doesn't sound promising. Be careful that you're not falling into the same trap of male validation. That's all I'm saying.

March 4, 2015

I just don't really see that sort of persistence as a good sign. A relationship minded, respectful guy wouldn't keep bugging a woman who'd declined to meet him, in my mind. But a guy who is looking to get laid, would.

Maybe I should've been more clear: we've chatted in the past, he asked to meet, I held him off, then ultimately said no because I was involved with A, then again with R.

So when I reappear, it's just that it's clear I'm now available again, so he contacts me. Just this last time to say "hello, long time no see". That's all.

In terms of online dating, if they don't have "looking for a relationship" in their profile, they're not looking for a relationship. I know that stuff is listed on tindr, which is maybe why you should be using different types of sites.

Actually, people do write that they are looking for something serious in their Tinder blurbs. I do and have seen it frequently on Tinder. And also... if I'm chatting with someone on multiple occasions, I always ask what they are looking for, or they do.

Let me compare it to "just looking to meet new people and have a good time": honestly, what does that say to you? (Serious question) because I've encountered this.

I find myself wondering what sort of pictures you have up of yourself. They're not suggestive photos, are they? if so get rid of those, they send a bad message.

None suggestive at all, one photo showing a bit of cleavage though, one of me in a bikini in an active shot. Not suggestive in my opinion. The others are tasteful and group photos, which are conservative. I could PM you the pics that I use, maybe you can give me your opinion?

I didn't quite mean it that way, so forgive me if it came off that way.
I'm not assuming that's what's going to happen, Venus. I will say though that, several times now, what starts off as just harmless fun turns into another disappointing venture.
If you feel you're ready to implement all the things you say you've learned over the last 42 pages of thread, then by all means, chat it up with this fella. Though, I agree with lissvarna that a guy who's hounding you on Tinder doesn't sound promising. Be careful that you're not falling into the same trap of male validation. That's all I'm saying.

Ok, well thank you. Yes, that has happened three times since August 2014, and I have learned a lot during these past 6 months. Time to break the pattern.

I have a female family member that I'm going to talk to about this tonight. She's a mother figure to me and was the one who pointed out (in real life) that I'm leading with sex and chasing the validation. She can relate. So I think talking about it is a part of the 'working on myself' process.

Edited March 4, 2015 by venusishername

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