When it rains it pours

March 4, 2015

I just like to address the issue of persistence here,

I think you are always giving into guys that are "persistent", but ultimately I think that is where you are going wrong.

A respectable person believes in give and take in a relationship, persistence means it is one sided. A relationship-minded guy is not going to persist when it is not reciprocated, he looks for mutual respect in his interactions. He is also not going to persist if he has other options.

Some people will think, oh he keeps persisting he must find me irresistible. But it is actually quite disrespectful, he is not respecting your wishes. When I meet a pushy guy like that it really puts me off.

Therefore I completely agree with lissvarna that this sort of persistence from guys (esp ones you haven't even met) is not a good sign at all, I would write these guys off as they are just looking for one thing.

Either this is your problem with selecting guys, or the actual "persistence" your describing is just bored chatter. In which case is just a guy touching base with all his girls once in a while to see which one bites.

Edited March 4, 2015 by lil_missy

March 4, 2015

Venus, by the way, do you talk to your therapist about this stuff? What do they say?

March 5, 2015

I just like to address the issue of persistence here, I think you are always giving into guys that are "persistent", but ultimately I think that is where you are going wrong.

No, I think you guys are taking this small point and running with it when it is super meaningless in the big picture. I don't "always give into guys that are persistent". R was the first persistent guy I've encountered in a long time. This unknown Tinder person is hardly being 'persistent'. I think he's just trying to talk to me and let me know he's still interested. If I feel uncomfortable with someone's level of persistence when I'M not interested... I have no problem deleting, blocking, ignoring.

That's actually simply not the case in my real life.

A certain level of persistence is imperative. Total disrespect for your wishes is not the same.

A respectable person believes in give and take in a relationship, persistence means it is one sided. A relationship-minded guy is not going to persist when it is not reciprocated, he looks for mutual respect in his interactions. He is also not going to persist if he has other options.

Actually, I agree with you that a relationship-minded guy isn't going to persist WHEN IT IS NOT RECIPROCATED. The key point is that I HAVE reciprocated with these 'persistent' guys.

Not that this persistence topic really matters...but how about someone is persistent because they actually like me? Why is that so out of the question? All these guys certainly had plenty of options.

Some people will think, oh he keeps persisting he must find me irresistible. But it is actually quite disrespectful, he is not respecting your wishes. When I meet a pushy guy like that it really puts me off.

Ok. That's different when you keep telling him no and he keeps pushing. That hasn't really happened with me so I think this point is probably worth dropping.

Venus, by the way, do you talk to your therapist about this stuff? What do they say?

You mean the "persistence"? No.

The leading with sex part? Recently, yes. The low self worth? Certainly.

March 5, 2015

It's really quite simple if you are able to detach from the crazy emotions and anxiety and see it just as a sorting process, without attaching your self-worth on the results. No crazy lenghty messages necessary and overanalysis.

A woman looking for a relationship should go out with as many men as possible. Men who ask you out (one on one, no "hang outs with friends at the bar") and are respectful. You shouldn't talk online more than for a few messages. You do not sleep together until you are in an exclusive relationship. That's how you know the guy wants a relationship, and he will tell you you're exclusive and he wants you to be his girlfriend. If a man doesn't ask you out at least once a week (or twice, maximum twice actually) regularly, and doesn't give you a couple of days notice for the next date, he's dropped immediately and next! It's a foolproof formula. Women stay single too long because they don't follow it and instead they waste time with dead end losers.

March 5, 2015

Not that this persistence topic really matters...but how about someone is persistent because they actually like me? Why is that so out of the question? All these guys certainly had plenty of options.

Did these men actually know you before being persistent (I mean the real you - the authentic core Venus)? Or did they just think you were hot/sexy?

Relationship oriented men aren't going to "like you" right from the start because they don't know you. They might want to get to know you better because they find you attractive, but they're certainly not going to "fall for you" immediately. They wouldn't be able to.

And why would you be interested in a man pursuing you strongly before he actually knows you? The dating process is to get to know someone to see if they possess those relationship qualities that would make a good partner. Relationship oriented people won't even be attracted to people until those qualities present themselves and those are the types of men you should be dating.

PS: Remove the bikini photo from your dating profile. Woman with a bikini photo (even an action shot) = man with shirtless bathroom photo selfie.

March 5, 2015

PS: Remove the bikini photo from your dating profile. Woman with a bikini photo (even an action shot) = man with shirtless bathroom photo selfie.

This. Would you take seriously a man with a shirtless bathroom photo selfie? I wouldn't, I wouldn't even go on a date with him.

Take that stuff down, right away. No matter how great my body was, I'd never post that kind of picture. Take down the cleavage picture too (unless it's really mild- PM me pictures, if you want). These will majorly attract men looking for sex and sends a message to them that you're up for it. Guys looking for a relationship may pass right by you, too. It's totally acceptable to post a full body shot that shows off your nice figure, but I wouldn't go any further.

March 6, 2015

This. Would you take seriously a man with a shirtless bathroom photo selfie? I wouldn't, I wouldn't even go on a date with him.
Take that stuff down, right away. No matter how great my body was, I'd never post that kind of picture. Take down the cleavage picture too (unless it's really mild- PM me pictures, if you want). These will majorly attract men looking for sex and sends a message to them that you're up for it. Guys looking for a relationship may pass right by you, too. It's totally acceptable to post a full body shot that shows off your nice figure, but I wouldn't go any further.

Lissvarna, I tried to send you pics via PM and am tech-challenged :/ Do I send as a link??

I have an active bikini shot. I also have a 'mild' cleavage shot, at least I consider it mild. I wouldn't say my pictures are overtly sexy but they're certainly not all extremely conservative either.

But honestly, I don't think my issue is about my photos, or the people I meet online. I've actually met one person that I've wrote about here from online (Maverick), the others I met in real life first and reconnected via Tinder. I just don't think that is the sticking point.

After the recent blast from the past with the cheater.... I can see very clearly now what the problem is (has been). It's leading with sex. It's low self worth. It's the people I've been drawn to and have wasted my time with. There have been a few great guys along the way; I just wasn't in the right mindset and it wasn't a good fit. (ex: A, someone from last year that I ran from).

I realized that I never forgave myself for participating in the affair a couple years ago, and have thought of myself as a bad person and completely unworthy. I truly believed that must be all I was good for (was sex) and to be tossed aside like nothing. So when that has happened since, (like with R recently) it only reaffirms my low sense of worth.

More later.

March 8, 2015

The past couple weeks have been really great for me to introspect. I had a little backslide last weekend but actually it served me well. I realize I'm no longer going to waste my time on these people who don't take me seriously and who don't see my worth. Not that it's up to them to take me seriously and to see my worth: it's about ME taking myself seriously and seeing my worth. I've had it up to here with this BS and I'm never going back. I'm NEVER putting myself in a situation ever again that some man I'm dating fades out on me or treats me like it was meaningless. If it doesn't work out, that's fine. I'm just never going to be in a superficial relationship ever again. I wasn't being real with myself; how could I expect anything real with anyone else? (Thank you, Chimpan-Z, I think you were the one who pointed this out some time ago).

I passed R on the opposite side of the street today. I think he saw me; it was just in passing so not a chance to stop or anything. We didn't make eye contact but I recognized him from a distance. The feeling I got when I saw him was absolute scorn. I am so bloody angry about it still, but then again I put myself in that situation. He said all the right things to get me in the sack, and I was a willing participant.

But no more. As far as I'm concerned, R was the last superficial exchange I'll ever have with a man I date ever again.

All I want is to be friends with someone first, get to know someone and connect on a deeper level. I've finally gotten to this point and it's taken me a long time. I guess I wasn't ready until now; I had to learn.

I didn't really know how to date, or how to go about reading intentions or reading people since I was single for nearly my entire adulthood, until 27. Now I don't have time to waste with this BS anymore. I feel I'm at a turning point.

I take responsibility for putting myself into a couple of situations rushing the sex, it was mainly out of loneliness and craving the validation, insecurity and low self worth. It was easy to be so attracted to the thought of actually making a connection with someone.

A was different; it wasn't about sex. It just wasn't a good fit. I think seeing him showed me that maybe it was ok to slow it down, whereas I was the one eager to rush it. It wasn't compatible anyway with him, so no harm.

I was leading with sex and the superficial because I felt that's all I wanted to offer or show anyone. Someone (Weezy?) said it's because I thought my core was flawed. And that is absolutely correct. So if I'm leading with the superficial, that's all I'm going to get. If I want a deeper connection with someone, I need to lead with my authentic self.

My authentic self is not good time easy breezy indifferent and carefree casual girl.

My authentic self is the lady in the house with a white picket fence, with a loving and devoted husband and a couple kids, cooking in the kitchen, wrapping Christmas gifts and baking cookies, hosting weekly dinner parties and family gatherings and making my own traditions. I grew up with a mother like that and very strong family values. That's all I want. I want my husband and my family.

My authentic self is not single, sexy party girl Carrie Bradshaw. That was appealing to me when I first became single, but not anymore. I will never go back again. These recent experiences helped me to get to this point.

I'm never going to get what I really want if I continue the way I have been.

At 27 and newly single, I wasn't ready for that. My mom reminded me that I couldn't have just snapped my fingers and got it. It has to come in time!

I wanted that with my ex. It ended very very badly and it demoralized me. It made me turn against the idea. I was actually repulsed by the thought of a boyfriend, or marriage, or that togetherness. I was bitter.

I read a very inspiring quote today: "People who are lonely are because they build walls and not bridges." That's what I've been doing.

I have a gf who asked me last weekend to spill the beans, "tell me all about your exciting dating life! What's going on with so and so..." (she's married with a newborn and is now a pampered housewife). I told her

"there is NOTHING exciting about my dating life. You know what sounds exciting?! Coming home every day to the same man and sharing a meal together. So don't ask me that again!"

Now I feel more resolved than I ever have about what I want.

I know that I have A LOT to offer and it has nothing to do with my attractiveness or sexiness.... I know I was just leading with that because I thought it was less risky than leading with my heart. Apart from being lonely and looking to fill a void that my heart was calling out for (love and intimacy)... I felt that if I give the superficial away, that's ok... it's not safe for me to show the deep stuff. Now I want to. Walls, not bridges.

When I meet someone, (hopefully not online because I personally find it a complete waste of time): SURE, it will be hard not to want to rush and speed up the intimacy if I really like the guy...and of course I'm still going to be attracted to men who are more alpha and forward (I can't help that I want a man with a strong and confident personality). I still think the one I end up with is going to be that kind of guy... next time I'll just be slowing down the pace. I have a strong and confident personality myself... I couldn't be with a man who wasn't at least equally so. I could never be with a meek and reserved quiet person. Now I'm not even sure it's about the 'type' I go for that's been my problem: if I hadn't rushed it with those types and led with the superficial, I may have ended up with them in the long term!

But I will say this: the guys that put the moves on you and come on too strong at first are the ones I have finally learned to be wary of. I didn't really 'get' this until now. Looking back, the good guys who actually have been respectful of me and liked me as a PERSON and who wanted to get to know me... never acted like that. In fact, the night I met my ex, he walked me home to my gate. We didn't kiss or even touch, he just asked for my number. He told me later he was so taken by me that he couldn't stay a minute longer he didn't want to say or do anything to screw it up! I think I was the one after a week or so of dating to make a move on him!

I think in these recent experiences I've learned it doesn't matter too much the 'type'; it's the intention behind the type.

I could find my old faithful 'type' tomorrow, social and confident commander of attention...who also happens to be looking for a relationship! And I've discovered at my age, men in their thirties at least... it's about 50/50.

Idoltree asked what I will be doing differently, not just saying differently.

Nothing NOW. I'm not actively dating. I'm looking online but have not chatted for more than one message or two with one or two people... and considering deleting my profile.

What I'm doing NOW is coming to these firm realizations of what I want, and what I never want again. After my little fling with R, it made it very easy, actually!

In the future, when it arises, I want to spend time getting to know someone on a deeper level, to build a FRIENDSHIP first that is based on attraction, not lead with attraction as though that's the foundation, and then cross my fingers hoping it will develop. I want to open myself up more, my true self. No longer the freewheeling 'I don't need no man' Sex and the City girl.

Over the past 6 months or so, I've realized that isn't me anymore. It was once. But then I dated a couple guys that were just in it for fun and then when they disappeared, I never felt so low in my life. I was seeing a guy last year who picked up out of bed in the middle of the night, grabbed his clothes, kissed me real quick, and never spoke to me again. I spent a couple hot nights with R... and the morning after Vday, asked him if he'd like to grab some coffee, and he said no, with no alternative suggestion for another time. Right then and there, I realized, I've had it up to HERE with this crap and no longer. Done.

I realize EXACTLY what the problem has been. I've been leading with the superficial and hoping for something real. If I want something real, I have to be real.

I feel like I've been holding myself back so much by not being true to myself.

Edited March 8, 2015 by venusishername

March 8, 2015

The past couple weeks have been really great for me to introspect. I had a little backslide last weekend but actually it served me well. I realize I'm no longer going to waste my time on these people who don't take me seriously and who don't see my worth. Not that it's up to them to take me seriously and to see my worth: it's about ME taking myself seriously and seeing my worth. I've had it up to here with this BS and I'm never going back. I'm NEVER putting myself in a situation ever again that some man I'm dating fades out on me or treats me like it was meaningless. If it doesn't work out, that's fine. I'm just never going to be in a superficial relationship ever again. I wasn't being real with myself; how could I expect anything real with anyone else? (Thank you, Chimpan-Z, I think you were the one who pointed this out some time ago).

I passed R on the opposite side of the street today. I think he saw me; it was just in passing so not a chance to stop or anything. We didn't make eye contact but I recognized him from a distance. The feeling I got when I saw him was absolute scorn. I am so bloody angry about it still, but then again I put myself in that situation. He said all the right things to get me in the sack, and I was a willing participant.
But no more. As far as I'm concerned, R was the last superficial exchange I'll ever have with a man I date ever again.
All I want is to be friends with someone first, get to know someone and connect on a deeper level. I've finally gotten to this point and it's taken me a long time. I guess I wasn't ready until now; I had to learn.
I didn't really know how to date, or how to go about reading intentions or reading people since I was single for nearly my entire adulthood, until 27. Now I don't have time to waste with this BS anymore. I feel I'm at a turning point.

I take responsibility for putting myself into a couple of situations rushing the sex, it was mainly out of loneliness and craving the validation, insecurity and low self worth. It was easy to be so attracted to the thought of actually making a connection with someone.
A was different; it wasn't about sex. It just wasn't a good fit. I think seeing him showed me that maybe it was ok to slow it down, whereas I was the one eager to rush it. It wasn't compatible anyway with him, so no harm.
I was leading with sex and the superficial because I felt that's all I wanted to offer or show anyone. Someone (Weezy?) said it's because I thought my core was flawed. And that is absolutely correct. So if I'm leading with the superficial, that's all I'm going to get. If I want a deeper connection with someone, I need to lead with my authentic self.

My authentic self is not good time easy breezy indifferent and carefree casual girl.
My authentic self is the lady in the house with a white picket fence, with a loving and devoted husband and a couple kids, cooking in the kitchen, wrapping Christmas gifts and baking cookies, hosting weekly dinner parties and family gatherings and making my own traditions. I grew up with a mother like that and very strong family values. That's all I want. I want my husband and my family.
My authentic self is not single, sexy party girl Carrie Bradshaw. That was appealing to me when I first became single, but not anymore. I will never go back again. These recent experiences helped me to get to this point.
I'm never going to get what I really want if I continue the way I have been.
At 27 and newly single, I wasn't ready for that. My mom reminded me that I couldn't have just snapped my fingers and got it. It has to come in time!
I wanted that with my ex. It ended very very badly and it demoralized me. It made me turn against the idea. I was actually repulsed by the thought of a boyfriend, or marriage, or that togetherness. I was bitter.
I read a very inspiring quote today: "People who are lonely are because they build walls and not bridges." That's what I've been doing.

I have a gf who asked me last weekend to spill the beans, "tell me all about your exciting dating life! What's going on with so and so..." (she's married with a newborn and is now a pampered housewife). I told her
"there is NOTHING exciting about my dating life. You know what sounds exciting?! Coming home every day to the same man and sharing a meal together. So don't ask me that again!"
Now I feel more resolved than I ever have about what I want.
I know that I have A LOT to offer and it has nothing to do with my attractiveness or sexiness.... I know I was just leading with that because I thought it was less risky than leading with my heart. Apart from being lonely and looking to fill a void that my heart was calling out for (love and intimacy)... I felt that if I give the superficial away, that's ok... it's not safe for me to show the deep stuff. Now I want to. Walls, not bridges.

When I meet someone, (hopefully not online because I personally find it a complete waste of time): SURE, it will be hard not to want to rush and speed up the intimacy if I really like the guy...and of course I'm still going to be attracted to men who are more alpha and forward (I can't help that I want a man with a strong and confident personality). I still think the one I end up with is going to be that kind of guy... next time I'll just be slowing down the pace. I have a strong and confident personality myself... I couldn't be with a man who wasn't at least equally so. I could never be with a meek and reserved quiet person. Now I'm not even sure it's about the 'type' I go for that's been my problem: if I hadn't rushed it with those types and led with the superficial, I may have ended up with them in the long term!

But I will say this: the guys that put the moves on you and come on too strong at first are the ones I have finally learned to be wary of. I didn't really 'get' this until now. Looking back, the good guys who actually have been respectful of me and liked me as a PERSON and who wanted to get to know me... never acted like that. In fact, the night I met my ex, he walked me home to my gate. We didn't kiss or even touch, he just asked for my number. He told me later he was so taken by me that he couldn't stay a minute longer he didn't want to say or do anything to screw it up! I think I was the one after a week or so of dating to make a move on him!
I think in these recent experiences I've learned it doesn't matter too much the 'type'; it's the intention behind the type.

I could find my old faithful 'type' tomorrow, social and confident commander of attention...who also happens to be looking for a relationship! And I've discovered at my age, men in their thirties at least... it's about 50/50.
Idoltree asked what I will be doing differently, not just saying differently.
Nothing NOW. I'm not actively dating. I'm looking online but have not chatted for more than one message or two with one or two people... and considering deleting my profile.
What I'm doing NOW is coming to these firm realizations of what I want, and what I never want again. After my little fling with R, it made it very easy, actually!

In the future, when it arises, I want to spend time getting to know someone on a deeper level, to build a FRIENDSHIP first that is based on attraction, not lead with attraction as though that's the foundation, and then cross my fingers hoping it will develop. I want to open myself up more, my true self. No longer the freewheeling 'I don't need no man' Sex and the City girl.
Over the past 6 months or so, I've realized that isn't me anymore. It was once. But then I dated a couple guys that were just in it for fun and then when they disappeared, I never felt so low in my life. I was seeing a guy last year who picked up out of bed in the middle of the night, grabbed his clothes, kissed me real quick, and never spoke to me again. I spent a couple hot nights with R... and the morning after Vday, asked him if he'd like to grab some coffee, and he said no, with no alternative suggestion for another time. Right then and there, I realized, I've had it up to HERE with this crap and no longer. Done.

I realize EXACTLY what the problem has been. I've been leading with the superficial and hoping for something real. If I want something real, I have to be real.
I feel like I've been holding myself back so much by not being true to myself.

But you also seem to be looking for the superficial. Yes, you can help who you're attracted to, by giving those other than your "type" a chance and actually steering clear of your described type because an "alpha male" is a superficial quality and youre more likely to find yourself in these situations with that type. You don't have to go with reserved and quiet, there is an in between.

Also, of course your photos aren't your issue. I was suggesting things to make online dating go more smoothly. I think the men you choose IS an issue, though. You point out that A was different and that seems to be true. But the rest of them were strikingly similar in the way they manipulated you.

Online dating isn't a waste of time, I also think your attitude that you're too good for it might hold you back- but, I felt that way about it too at one point, so maybe I can't blame you. My opinion about that drastically changed after I met the person who I've been the happiest with in 10 years online.

I'm typing on my phone which is difficult, but you seem to have gained a lot of insight into yourself, Venus.

Edited March 8, 2015 by lissvarna

March 8, 2015

Nice job, Venus. You are making a great deal of progress. I'm excited for you, and have written a novel in response.

As lissvarna expressed, there are still a few areas on which to drop the stubbornness and instincts, and examine what is behind those feelings. Asking you to do that is totally lacking in risk, since it's just about figuring some more things out about yourself, correct? There is nothing to be lost by looking a little more deeply into what has motivated your patterns. There is a great deal to be lost by continuing to allow yourself blind spots.

You led with the superficial about yourself and ignored your core, hoping that your attractiveness, flirting, and sex would be enough to get a guy to commit. You can now see that was getting you nowhere fast. However, now you still want to look for the superficial in men and hope that's enough to find one with a good core.

Those men that you are attracted to, by the way, have their pick of the women and are not likely to be seeking out the white picket fence fantasy that you describe, even in their 30s and possibly their 40s. Why? Because they have no biological clock, and, if they are the charming extroverted alpha male type, they can date women in their 20s. For logical reasons, they are in no rush. Marriage and children carry risks for men that women don't experience, so men are hesitant to commit. The ones who are into settling and having a family have likely already done so. There are a few that are transitioning from the party life to wanting something stable, but you are going to have to find them at exactly the right moment and odds are working against you about finding that. You want to settle down, but you only want to settle down with a unicorn, essentially. This is a problem.

What happened to those qualities that you mentioned that you'd seek? Genuineness, loyalty, trustworthy, etc.? They appear nowhere in your empowered missive and that is significant. This is still a blind spot for you.

I maintain that this insistence that you need the charming alpha male who will protect you is not set in stone. Just because this is how you have always been does not mean that it is not changeable. There are things about yourself that you've had to change because they don't suit what you want for yourself, right? Why is this one not up for examination about how appropriate it is for getting what you want?

I still think you seek these qualities because they are the way a little girl would view her father. I don't think it is what you are actually attracted to; I think you're attempting to resolve your issues with your father in romantic relationships, which is what many people subconsciously do. You are looking for a father to love you to prove to yourself that you are worthy. Until you've dealt with what is underneath the attraction to the fatherly qualities, you will keep seeking out the father/daughter dynamic in relationships, and the father/daughter dynamic does not lend itself to stability. This is something your therapist can help you with.

You get really angry when people suggest that you're not going to find what you want with an alpha male who pursues you. Why does that make you angry? I think it's got to do with the above, and the anger is toward what was lacking in your relationship with your father. There is a part of you that feels that you are owed this and I think it's because you're looking at it through the lens of the hurt little girl that you once were, not the adult woman who knows better.

Absolutely no one is saying that you don't need to be attracted to the man you settle down with. What we are saying is that there are different kinds of attraction, and, even if you choose someone for qualities that are different than what you've usually gone for, you can find amazing chemistry and view that person as the hottest guy on the planet. And you sure as hell can find hot sex this way, too.

This happened for me in my last relationship. I met a guy, wasn't that into him, wasn't that attracted right away. I gave him a shot anyway because I liked his personality and what he had to offer. On date two, two silly things he did attracted me to him, and a light switch flipped. I still waited to sleep with him, but for some reason those two things let me know I would have a good time when I did. And I did And he became the hottest guy to me.

As lissvarna said, there is a great deal of grey area between the alpha males and the shy quiet guys, but you're only seeing it in black and white as a way to cling to your instinctual ideals (the ones that are not getting you what you want.) You need to force yourself to embrace the guys who fall in the grey area. Maybe they won't be confident and charming at first, but will show you that side of themselves once you trust one another. Maybe attraction can build over time. I can attest that this happens if you're open to it. Lissvarna, I believe, has described something similar in her life.

Real change requires leaving your comfort zone, Venus. You are willing to do it with the way that you date, but you are not willing to do it with who you date and how you meet them. Why?

Don't view this in black and white terms. No one is telling you to settle. No one is telling you that you can't be attracted to a man. Just that the sample of men whom you believe you are attracted to is possibly wider than you currently know. We want you to be open to that possibility, and open to leaving that comfort zone, because with the right mindset, you'd probably be surprised at what you find. This is not to say that you won't encounter men you aren't attracted to, because you will. But you've got to get over that. You only need to find one guy who is looking for what you are looking for and where there is mutual attraction, but you will need to wade through a whole bunch who don't meet these criteria. And that sucks, but that's the reality of dating. Have a sense of humor about it and think of all the horrific first date stories you can tell your friends.

In previous posts, I pushed you to say whether you were dating or not. I felt that both had benefits, but I was pushing you to be proactive about your life and less passive. I wanted you to make a decision for yourself and stick to it. Your comfort zone seems to be one of passivity, where you look pretty and a guy comes and swoops you up and you live happily ever after. It's the little girl's fairy tale come to life. I want you to avoid that mindset, because it makes you lazy and it keeps you in your comfort zone that we know does not get you what you want. (Don't confuse being proactive with pursuing men. They're different things.)

And what is the problem with online dating, exactly? If your goal is to settle down, why would you NOT be open to marketing yourself on several levels at once? Aren't you a logical businesswoman type? Why are you so resistant to online dating on sites where men are looking for someone to settle down with? If you do online dating, there is nothing preventing you from meeting someone in real life. What is the block there? It seems like you resent it, almost.

I think you're sabotaging yourself by cutting off a valid method of meeting men. You can't trust the words with which guys describe themselves (confirmation comes with time), but it's a good way to know about someone's interests and values up front. It's a heck of a lot more efficient than meeting guys in real life, since you have no clue about them other than that they were physically attracted to you and you were physically attracted to them. In this way, I think you're still placing value on the shallow aspects of attraction.

In previous messages, lissvarna suggested leaving the sexy photos out of your profile because of the message it sends. I noted that you shut that idea right down. (I notice when you are immediately and overly resistant to someone's feedback, because it's a clue about your persistent hang-ups. You have 43 pages of you alternating between being receptive and you saying something along the lines of "That's silly. I know best." That, to me, is silly.)

I think what lissvarna said is valid, and I think your resistance to it is because you still place value on the shallow. It's your blind spot talking, because you still think you need to lead with sexiness.

Online dating is about marketing yourself to the guys that you want to attract. You can have a body shot that isn't you in a bikini. You can have one of you in a pretty dress that shows the outline of your shape, but doesn't display the goods. This is what you want to market to find a guy who wants to get to know Venus for Venus, not how she looks in a bikini. And there is a possibility that guy might be wary of a woman putting her cleavage and body on display on online dating, or that he might put her in the category of an easy lay versus someone he wants to settle down with. Why risk attracting the types you don't want and turning off the ones you supposedly do want?

And, yes, online dating gets you a lot of gross and time wasting messages. It's true for most women, Venus. However on sites like Okcupid, you can set filters on your messages, so the ones from guys who meet what you're looking for are the ones that are in your immediate inbox. Acting like having to sort through messages is a reason not to do online dating does not make sense. Again, what is the harm in strategically casting a wide net in order to find just one guy who meets your needs?

March 9, 2015

Nice job, Venus. You are making a great deal of progress. I'm excited for you, and have written a novel in response.

Thanks! I think so too.

Those men that you are attracted to, by the way, have their pick of the women and are not likely to be seeking out the white picket fence fantasy that you describe, even in their 30s and possibly their 40s. Why? Because they have no biological clock, and, if they are the charming extroverted alpha male type, they can date women in their 20s. For logical reasons, they are in no rush. Marriage and children carry risks for men that women don't experience, so men are hesitant to commit. The ones who are into settling and having a family have likely already done so. There are a few that are transitioning from the party life to wanting something stable, but you are going to have to find them at exactly the right moment and odds are working against you about finding that. You want to settle down, but you only want to settle down with a unicorn, essentially. This is a problem.

I don't agree with this. You say they can date younger, but the men that I know.... don't. Maybe it's just my pool, but the men I meet who are like minded are my same age or older, and date women their same age or around the same age. For some reason, maybe it's my demographic or something... most of the men I date or know in their late twenties-late thirties have never married, are career-minded, etc. I met one guy who already did the wife and kids thing in his mid-twenties... but the majority of the men in my dating pool at least where I live are never married due to career and are looking to settle down. At least that's what I've encountered! Of course there are those men who aren't looking to commit, but honestly.. I would say over 85% of the men I've ever dated in my adult life are very eager to have that family and stability. Like with R, for example. Mid 30s, career minded, advanced degree... never had time for a wife and family, but he talked about how he wanted that. In fact, every man I've ever dated (with the exception of maybe one or two) expressed often how much he wanted a wife and family. Even just recently. So I guess it must vary with demographics.?

What happened to those qualities that you mentioned that you'd seek? Genuineness, loyalty, trustworthy, etc.? They appear nowhere in your empowered missive and that is significant. This is still a blind spot for you.

No, that's not true. Those qualities are very important to me and I think that it's totally possible to find 'my type' who also possesses those important core values. In fact, I know a couple of those kinds of men, (who are taken)... but that's my kind of guy... the one who has those alpha qualities with the good true stuff. To me those are the 'old school' kind of men... and rare! But they sure do exist. And I want to hold out for that!

I maintain that this insistence that you need the charming alpha male who will protect you is not set in stone. Just because this is how you have always been does not mean that it is not changeable. There are things about yourself that you've had to change because they don't suit what you want for yourself, right? Why is this one not up for examination about how appropriate it is for getting what you want?

I'd certainly be OPEN to it and would give the underdog a chance. I'm not ONLY attracted to the outgoing charming alpha males... maybe they're just my weak spot. Maybe because the men who I've respected the most in my life are the ones whose qualities I seek.

I still think you seek these qualities because they are the way a little girl would view her father. I don't think it is what you are actually attracted to; I think you're attempting to resolve your issues with your father in romantic relationships, which is what many people subconsciously do. You are looking for a father to love you to prove to yourself that you are worthy. Until you've dealt with what is underneath the attraction to the fatherly qualities, you will keep seeking out the father/daughter dynamic in relationships, and the father/daughter dynamic does not lend itself to stability. This is something your therapist can help you with.

I see what you are saying. But without you knowing me and my relationship with my dad..The thing is... my father was never really that kind of guy. He has similar qualities to the men I'm attracted to.. but what I find myself drawn to is the super conservative and stable type, and my dad was the complete opposite. I find myself drawn to the life of the party, the deep thinker and the social butterfly... like my dad (which are his positive qualities). My dad was very much a family man.. but very self centered and freewheeling, very distant but still loving. I want the stable and secure 'rock'. I don't view him like that. He was 'there' but he wasn't there. Interestingly, as you mention... I seek out men who are NOT like my father because my dad wasn't really there for me and I want someone who will be. I'm not exactly sure what that means. But I'll have to think about that more.

There is a part of you that feels that you are owed this and I think it's because you're looking at it through the lens of the hurt little girl that you once were, not the adult woman who knows better.

Sure. I think that IS what I'm after. Isn't this a standard, across the board female desire? Isn't that why women get married historically? For protection? Like the father giving his daughter away at her wedding. It's a passing over of 'protection' and guidance? Like I said, my dad wasn't there for me in the ways I needed him to be. It makes sense that I'm drawn to very strong male figures who can be a source of guidance and protection. I guess that's why I tend to cling to certain types because I think that they can provide that. The hero? Ultimately, that IS what I want. And I still believe there are men out there who are like that. Like I said, I know a few. If I know a few personally, there must be more out there.

As lissvarna said, there is a great deal of grey area between the alpha males and the shy quiet guys, but you're only seeing it in black and white as a way to cling to your instinctual ideals (the ones that are not getting you what you want.) You need to force yourself to embrace the guys who fall in the grey area. Maybe they won't be confident and charming at first, but will show you that side of themselves once you trust one another. Maybe attraction can build over time. I can attest that this happens if you're open to it. Lissvarna, I believe, has described something similar in her life.Real change requires leaving your comfort zone, Venus. You are willing to do it with the way that you date, but you are not willing to do it with who you date and how you meet them. Why?

I'm not saying it can't happen or that I'm not open to it. But I have yet to meet a man who I'm over the moon about who is NOT that strong 'hero' type who is super confident and masculine and makes me feel... well, like a woman. I'm not saying it isn't possible...getting to know someone in time.

I hate to bring up my ex again but he used to comment on how feminine I am and how it made it him feel more like a man, and I felt the same way towards him. It made us very drawn to each other, for obvious reasons. It's hard not to be attracted to that.. isn't that a natural thing? There are facets of the male and female that are appealing to the opposite sex since the beginning of time. Maybe a lot of women don't seek that or need that anymore? Call me corny and hopeless.. but I want my hero. I want my white knight. Doesn't mean I have to be a damsel in distress and subservient. My own dad once said he sees the 'little girl' in all women. I think all good men see it the same way. All good men (the kind of men I want) want to protect the women in their lives, as friends, daughters, wives, sisters, whomever she may be. There's nothing wrong with me seeking protection from a man.

The man I end up with I would like to think will be is someone who I can rely on, admire, respect, and will protect me. Of course that doesn't mean he can't be a quiet introspective guy.

Your comfort zone seems to be one of passivity, where you look pretty and a guy comes and swoops you up and you live happily ever after. It's the little girl's fairy tale come to life. I want you to avoid that mindset, because it makes you lazy and it keeps you in your comfort zone that we know does not get you what you want. (Don't confuse being proactive with pursuing men. They're different things.)

Well, I guess I've rather have been 'picked' than do the 'picking'. I suppose that has been a major roadblock for me. Like I mentioned with my guy friend who recently fell in love again after many years of being single. He told me he stopped taking whatever fell in his lap and went after what HE wanted... no longer being 'lazy' and 'inactive' about it. I think I can make that correlation to what you are getting at here. My little girl fairy tale never did come true, or never did stay true. I still would like to think in the back of my mind that the man I end up with will be the one who swoops me up (why? because the kind of man I want will see me, fall for me,and climb mountains to be with me... romantic fairytale to the utmost)... but in the meantime I can attempt to start 'picking' instead. I would still rather be rescued by Prince Charming than go actively seeking him out. I would guess that I'm no different from all women when I admit that!

And what is the problem with online dating, exactly? If your goal is to settle down, why would you NOT be open to marketing yourself on several levels at once? Aren't you a logical businesswoman type? Why are you so resistant to online dating on sites where men are looking for someone to settle down with? If you do online dating, there is nothing preventing you from meeting someone in real life. What is the block there? It seems like you resent it, almost.

Yes, in a way, I have resented it. Like I said, I wanted to be 'picked'. I didn't want to 'shop'. I wanted to be chosen, not choose. I think I'm getting past that now. Still not totally convinced, but trying. And no, I don't think I'm a 'logical business woman type' at my core. I'm very old fashioned when it comes down to it although I am very independent compared to most women I know, actually. I much prefer meeting someone in real life. Just the romantic in me. You know, locking eyes from across the room. The fate thing. I always felt that online dating was very forced and unnatural. I don't necessarily see that so much anymore. I'd just rather meet the man of my dreams by chance. I would say in my heart I am 100% romantic as compared to logical!

Online dating is about marketing yourself to the guys that you want to attract. You can have a body shot that isn't you in a bikini. You can have one of you in a pretty dress that shows the outline of your shape, but doesn't display the goods. This is what you want to market to find a guy who wants to get to know Venus for Venus, not how she looks in a bikini. And there is a possibility that guy might be wary of a woman putting her cleavage and body on display on online dating, or that he might put her in the category of an easy lay versus someone he wants to settle down with. Why risk attracting the types you don't want and turning off the ones you supposedly do want?

There is no more bikini shot in my profile. I deleted it. It wasn't a sexually suggestive photo but I see what you mean about someone being wary of that.

But here's the problem: in real life, I am very often in a bikini in public during the warm weather months. When I go out, or even go to work, I wear clothes that are flattering to my figure, and maybe a bit of cleavage. I don't wear too much makeup or look fake and unnatural.

What's the difference? If I meet someone in real life, he's going to likely see me in my bikini, or in form-fitting clothes, he will see the outline of my shape regardless. I don't show a lot of skin, but I show my figure by the clothes I wear. I've met a handful of guys when I was wearing conservative work attire, or a nice dress, or full on covered up with a coat, scarf, high socks and boots.

I guess my point is, why conceal what I actually look like in real life in my online profile pics?

Edited March 9, 2015 by venusishername

March 9, 2015

There is no more bikini shot in my profile. I deleted it. It wasn't a sexually suggestive photo but I see what you mean about someone being wary of that.
But here's the problem: in real life, I am very often in a bikini in public during the warm weather months. When I go out, or even go to work, I wear clothes that are flattering to my figure, and maybe a bit of cleavage. I don't wear too much makeup or look fake and unnatural.
What's the difference? If I meet someone in real life, he's going to likely see me in my bikini, or in form-fitting clothes, he will see the outline of my shape regardless. I don't show a lot of skin, but I show my figure by the clothes I wear. I've met a handful of guys when I was wearing conservative work attire, or a nice dress, or full on covered up with a coat, scarf, high socks and boots.
I guess my point is, why conceal what I actually look like in real life in my online profile pics?

You're not concealing what you look like, not even close. They get to find out what you look like under regular clothes when they EARN the privilege. I get wearing a bikini at the beach, but I'm also of the mindset that wearing one at beach bars or in any other location is sending the wrong message. Truthfully, I've had a bikini body at points in my life (not right now I'd say, haha), but I have never and would never feel comfortable in it anywhere other than ON the beach (and even then I wore one piece suits). Listen, I think your drive to lead with superficial qualities is still very much there even though you acknowledge that it's destructive. And that's normal. It's going to take time. But not posting bikini photos or covering up a bit more is not "concealing" what you look like and you should try to change your thinking about those kinds of things, if possible.

Multiquoting is too much of a hassle for me to do right now, haha, but a lot of your last post seems like the same old kind of stuff... looking for a hero, an alpha male, etc. But really, that's all a fairy tale. A marriage is a partnership and for much of the time it's not sexy, it's not romantic. The best marriages have a core of friendship. All the stuff you describe wanting to "hold out for" is not the stuff that makes a relationship. Romance is definitely important, and needs to be there at the beginning, but without other stuff too it'll just fizzle (like a lot of your recent dating experiences). I still see a lot of rigid black and white thinking about what to look for in a mate in your posts. My dad always says "look for someone you can stand talking to for the next 50 years." And I agree. Someone I can talk to and laugh with are more important qualities than any other.

March 9, 2015

But here's the problem: in real life, I am very often in a bikini in public during the warm weather months.

You're right, that is a problem. Why on earth are you wearing a bikini in public when you aren't at the pool? It's completely inappropriate and more than a little desperate.

What's the difference? If I meet someone in real life, he's going to likely see me in my bikini, or in form-fitting clothes, he will see the outline of my shape regardless. I don't show a lot of skin, but I show my figure by the clothes I wear. I've met a handful of guys when I was wearing conservative work attire, or a nice dress, or full on covered up with a coat, scarf, high socks and boots. I guess my point is, why conceal what I actually look like in real life in my online profile pics?

And so we're back to the issue of you simply not recognizing how your behavior comes off to others. A bikini picture on a dating site does not say "I'm a professional, mature, serious-minded woman in search of a committed relationship"; it just screams "look at me!". Wearing a bikini in public is a much worse version of the exact same problem. Why do you think it's acceptable to show strangers what you look like in your underwear?

March 9, 2015

You're right, that is a problem. Why on earth are you wearing a bikini in public when you aren't at the pool? It's completely inappropriate and more than a little desperate.

And so we're back to the issue of you simply not recognizing how your behavior comes off to others. A bikini picture on a dating site does not say "I'm a professional, mature, serious-minded woman in search of a committed relationship"; it just screams "look at me!". Wearing a bikini in public is a much worse version of the exact same problem. Why do you think it's acceptable to show strangers what you look like in your underwear?

Yes, please read this statement a few times. These are basic ideas that you have to start understanding if you're going to make real changes in your dating life.

March 9, 2015

I still would like to think in the back of my mind that the man I end up with will be the one who swoops me up (why? because the kind of man I want will see me, fall for me,and climb mountains to be with me... romantic fairytale to the utmost). I would still rather be rescued by Prince Charming than go actively seeking him out.

I much prefer meeting someone in real life. Just the romantic in me. You know, locking eyes from across the room. The fate thing.

I don't know how serious you are when you write about these things, but I think you'd do wise to banish these types of fantasies from your thoughts.

Marriage and relationships are no fairytale. No one NEEDS to be rescued by some idealized partner. And to think of your future relationships that way is only keeping you from finding something truly fulfilling.

March 9, 2015

You're right, that is a problem. Why on earth are you wearing a bikini in public when you aren't at the pool? It's completely inappropriate and more than a little desperate.
And so we're back to the issue of you simply not recognizing how your behavior comes off to others. A bikini picture on a dating site does not say "I'm a professional, mature, serious-minded woman in search of a committed relationship"; it just screams "look at me!". Wearing a bikini in public is a much worse version of the exact same problem. Why do you think it's acceptable to show strangers what you look like in your underwear?

Oh for crying out loud, I didn't mean I walk around in a bikini like some Victoria's Secret runway model!

I live in a beach town where in the summertime people wear little clothing while walking around coming to and from the ocean. I'm talking about in the hot months walking home from the beach in a bikini top with shorts or a wrap. I'm from CA and this is very common for us surf town people. Think Baywatch or Gidget. Seriously. Also, I commonly wear my workout clothes in public too, which consists of a tank top and fitted capris or yoga pants. I normally look like a mess while dressed like this by the way. I wouldn't call that inappropriate either :/

This is extremely common where I live to see women walking around in a beach coverup or a bikini top, or fitted workout gear.

As far as my profile, I posted one picture of me on a boat, and I was wearing a bikini. I figured it was an action shot that showed off my figure. I don't have that up anymore.

Edited March 9, 2015 by venusishername

March 11, 2015

Thanks! I think so too.
I see what you are saying. But without you knowing me and my relationship with my dad..The thing is... my father was never really that kind of guy. He has similar qualities to the men I'm attracted to.. but what I find myself drawn to is the super conservative and stable type, and my dad was the complete opposite. I find myself drawn to the life of the party, the deep thinker and the social butterfly... like my dad (which are his positive qualities). My dad was very much a family man.. but very self centered and freewheeling, very distant but still loving. I want the stable and secure 'rock'. I don't view him like that. He was 'there' but he wasn't there. Interestingly, as you mention... I seek out men who are NOT like my father because my dad wasn't really there for me and I want someone who will be. I'm not exactly sure what that means. But I'll have to think about that more.

This is really all over the place. What is it you're attracted to exactly? Super conservative and stable? The life of the party? The deep thinker? The social butterfly? The family man? A self centered and freewheeling man? Distant? Loving?

The one thing I know for sure, is that you've repeatedly said you're attracted to arrogant, "cocky" men. That attraction has to be mitigated. Arrogant and cocky men will not make good husbands and fathers. Ever.

The most confident men I've known have also been the most humble. That's what you should be looking for.

Sure. I think that IS what I'm after. Isn't this a standard, across the board female desire?

This is fundamentally flawed thinking. The women I know in the best marriages literally think nothing like you. In fact their thinking is the opposite of yours generally.

Isn't that why women get married historically? For protection? Like the father giving his daughter away at her wedding. It's a passing over of 'protection' and guidance?

Historically women were seen as property. They didn't actually get "person" status until quite recently. Pretty sure you don't want to have an "historical" relationship. From and evolutionary standpoint women are attracted to genetic fitness (i.e. good looks) and also men who would be good fathers (i.e. generous with their time, assets, and loyalty). If you want the white picket fence you'd be well served to look to the good fathers.

Like I said, my dad wasn't there for me in the ways I needed him to be. It makes sense that I'm drawn to very strong male figures who can be a source of guidance and protection. I guess that's why I tend to cling to certain types because I think that they can provide that. The hero? Ultimately, that IS what I want. And I still believe there are men out there who are like that. Like I said, I know a few. If I know a few personally, there must be more out there.

Generally speaking, this is a fantasy. Nobody is perfect - no man or woman. The "hero" who is going to save you will be plenty flawed.

I'm not saying it can't happen or that I'm not open to it. But I have yet to meet a man who I'm over the moon about who is NOT that strong 'hero' type who is super confident and masculine and makes me feel... well, like a woman. I'm not saying it isn't possible...getting to know someone in time.

And how has that worked so far? Genuine question. The men you feel over the moon about, so far, including your serious relationships, have been terrible husband/father material (at least according to your own posts).

I hate to bring up my ex again but he used to comment on how feminine I am and how it made it him feel more like a man, and I felt the same way towards him. It made us very drawn to each other, for obvious reasons. It's hard not to be attracted to that.. isn't that a natural thing?

And you admit it was a fully unhealthy relationship. And not surprisingly, studies show that the best relationships are actually the most androgynous (i.e. not following standard gender roles). You instincts are off here too.

There are facets of the male and female that are appealing to the opposite sex since the beginning of time. Maybe a lot of women don't seek that or need that anymore? Call me corny and hopeless.. but I want my hero. I want my white knight.

This is such unhealthy thinking. And by unhealthy, I mean not at all useful in accomplishing your goal of the healthy, stable, long term marriage and stable family. Just because you feel it, doesn't mean it's useful. It's been stated many times, you are going to have to behave in ways that go against how you feel.

All good men (the kind of men I want) want to protect the women in their lives, as friends, daughters, wives, sisters, whomever she may be. There's nothing wrong with me seeking protection from a man. The man I end up with I would like to think will be is someone who I can rely on, admire, respect, and will protect me. Of course that doesn't mean he can't be a quiet introspective guy.

What types of qualities do you admire and respect? Cockiness and arrogance? That's what you're drawn to right?

Well, I guess I've rather have been 'picked' than do the 'picking'.

Generally speaking in relationships, both parties pick each other.

My little girl fairy tale never did come true, or never did stay true. I still would like to think in the back of my mind that the man I end up with will be the one who swoops me up (why? because the kind of man I want will see me, fall for me,and climb mountains to be with me... romantic fairytale to the utmost)...

The sooner you get rid of this fantasy the better. It's like the person who works minimum wage and dreams of winning the lottery to get the lifestyle they want. A better bet would be to work hard, get a university education and save money for your retirement.

I would still rather be rescued by Prince Charming than go actively seeking him out. I would guess that I'm no different from all women when I admit that!

Well, very different from the women in happy, long term, successful relationships. If that matters. Start going after what you want instead of passively waiting for it. You want a man who will make an excellent husband and father. Go get it!

I much prefer meeting someone in real life. Just the romantic in me. You know, locking eyes from across the room. The fate thing. I always felt that online dating was very forced and unnatural. I don't necessarily see that so much anymore. I'd just rather meet the man of my dreams by chance. I would say in my heart I am 100% romantic as compared to logical!

And out of curiosity, what exactly would a stranger who locks eyes with you across the room be attracted to you for? Is it your core qualities? Or is it your cleavage? I'm guessing the latter, and if so, is that the type of man that will give you what you want? Someone who pursues women based on superficial qualities?

I guess my point is, why conceal what I actually look like in real life in my online profile pics?

Because you don't want men to pursue you because you have a nice body. That can be a great surprise for the man you deem worthy of spending your life with. And that man will have the qualities that would make him a great father and husband (i.e. not the type of man that would pursue you based solely on your body).

March 11, 2015

This is really all over the place. What is it you're attracted to exactly? Super conservative and stable? The life of the party? The deep thinker? The social butterfly? The family man? A self centered and freewheeling man? Distant? Loving?
The one thing I know for sure, is that you've repeatedly said you're attracted to arrogant, "cocky" men. That attraction has to be mitigated. Arrogant and cocky men will not make good husbands and fathers. Ever.
The most confident men I've known have also been the most humble. That's what you should be looking for.

Well, I think what it comes down to is I want a very strong personality. Not someone meek and who stays under the radar. I like people/men who are very social and outgoing, power players, movers and shakers. This typically follows with a high level of confidence and you know, sense of command in a room. However, there's a fine line between confidence and arrogance (cockiness). Someone who's social, yes. Also a family man, loving, stable, conservative in values.

Let's see.... like a President, CEO, politician.... unicorn

This is fundamentally flawed thinking. The women I know in the best marriages literally think nothing like you. In fact their thinking is the opposite of yours generally.

You know, I think you are right.

If you want the white picket fence you'd be well served to look to the good fathers.

I absolutely do want that and I want a good husband/father. I am ready!!

And how has that worked so far? Genuine question. The men you feel over the moon about, so far, including your serious relationships, have been terrible husband/father material (at least according to your own posts).

No, they have not. My exes, yes...TERRIBLE husband/father material. My ex loved kids and he would've been a very loving father... he just wasn't responsible enough to be one.

There have been a couple over the years who I was over the moon about who either WERE a father/once husband (and seemed to be a great one)...or the 'good guys' that I mentioned.

I would say it's been about a 50/50 blend.

And you admit it was a fully unhealthy relationship. And not surprisingly, studies show that the best relationships are actually the most androgynous (i.e. not following standard gender roles). You instincts are off here too.

I see what you mean. I find it hard not to compare my dating experiences to my last 'successful' relationship that actually made it past 6 weeks (my ex).

Maybe in my mind I've been thinking: well, that got off the ground... the elements of that relationship I should compare to my current dating experiences. But... I just can't. There are SOME things that I can use to compare though, I guess. Just not all.

What types of qualities do you admire and respect? Cockiness and arrogance? That's what you're drawn to right?

No, I don't admire and respect cockiness and arrogance. See my response to your first quote. I admire a strong self of confidence, along with qualities like honesty, integrity, respect, family values, compassion, work ethic, courage, determination, ambition, etc....

Generally speaking in relationships, both parties pick each other.

Again, you got me here. I suppose that's the shift I need to (and am) making.

The sooner you get rid of this fantasy the better. It's like the person who works minimum wage and dreams of winning the lottery to get the lifestyle they want. A better bet would be to work hard, get a university education and save money for your retirement.

I love the analogy, thank you! This is great. In your analogy, I did the latter and I'm a go-getter, not a passive, lazy person. I can apply that to ALL things that I want, not just my education and career.

Start going after what you want instead of passively waiting for it. You want a man who will make an excellent husband and father. Go get it!

YES! This is what I was talking about my best guy friend. I just found out he proposed to his new girlfriend!! He was single for YEARS.. and was always lonely, always wasting time with needy nutcase types. He told me he changed his attitude and starting going after what he wanted instead of being passive and just taking what fell in his lap.

This is EXACTLY what I need to do. I'm 31. I'm ready to get married and have my family very very soon. I'm ready to stop messing around with players and casual crap. I had to go through a bit of a time with that after my breakup- I wasn't ready until now.

It's been over the past year that I've been transitioning into where I am now; I didn't always want a serious relationship. Therefore, I spent my time with men who also didn't want that. Along the way, I ran away from some awesome men who treated me like a queen and wanted a relationship with me. It's all about timing.

And out of curiosity, what exactly would a stranger who locks eyes with you across the room be attracted to you for? Is it your core qualities? Or is it your cleavage? I'm guessing the latter, and if so, is that the type of man that will give you what you want? Someone who pursues women based on superficial qualities?

Well, physical attraction is generally the ice breaker to discovering the core qualities. And generally all men are going to notice if they think a woman is physically appealing.

Look, I'm an attractive woman. I get called 'hot', 'beautiful', 'sexy', 'pretty' often. I get approached because men think I'm pretty. It has nothing to do with the amount of skin I'm showing or even if I'm in workout clothes with no makeup.

So to answer your question, yes, it COULD be the man who will give me what I want, because ALL men would notice the physical qualities of a woman they find attractive.

Because you don't want men to pursue you because you have a nice body. That can be a great surprise for the man you deem worthy of spending your life with. And that man will have the qualities that would make him a great father and husband (i.e. not the type of man that would pursue you based solely on your body).

I understand. I'm toning down the sexiness.

On another note, I've signed up for a couple different free dating sites. Not willing to pay for Match or Eharmony. Still hoping to meet my guy in real life, but I am finally 'casting a wider net' than ever before, because now I take it very seriously and am not going to be passive anymore.

Haven't actually met anyone yet or even planned to, but maybe one or two I'm definitely interested in talking to more!

What I find great is that one of the sites specifies the 'intent' of the person, which makes it MUCH easier to weed people out!

One person commented on how straightforward I was with what I am looking for in a match. I'm not sure why I've was hesitating to be honest about that. Again, maybe just not ready.

Guess who I ran across on that site?? ®

And whaddaya know...his profile clearly states in the intent section that he's not interested in a relationship or any kind of commitment.

Now I know for sure: I never needed to ask him what he was looking for, because he made it clear by his actions. I feel relieved by coming across his profile, because now I know that I shouldn't be angry or hurt about the fact that he dropped off the face of the planet... we're not looking for the same thing! He did me a favor by never asking to see me again. He liked me, sure. He just didn't want what I wanted and he knew that. What separated him from B over the summer was that B had the guts to tell me directly without provocation exactly what he was looking for: nothing serious. R didn't offer that info and chose to just go along with whatever I was willing to do/give up. In the future, if someone doesn't offer that information within the first couple dates, I'm going to ask before wasting time or trying to figure it out!

And... about the early sex thing.

I've been finding myself in repeated casual situations because I am/was? leading on sexual attraction and not delaying sex prior to getting to know someone. Call it due to weakness, or low self worth, or lonely and horny... but what I've realized is that the guys that I have REALLY REALLY liked and want to have a relationship with (and in the future).... I will/have WANTED to delay or slow down the physical part and instead lead with the deeper stuff. 100%. I guess it's been easy to fall into a fling with someone (like R, as a recent example) who deep down I knew I would never want to build a relationship with, but was craving the superficial affection, attention, sex, company, etc. It filled a superficial void I was craving.

But now... I'm cutting out the passivity, weakness, and wasting time. (Thank you, Idoltree for pushing me to be proactive!!)

I think I'll always be attracted to a certain type of personality. I am attracted to certain people as friends too. It doesn't translate to arrogance or cockiness. I like a man who goes after what he wants.

Now I'm going to do that too.

Edited March 11, 2015 by venusishername

March 11, 2015

Nice guys who want relationships can strongly pursue what it is that they want. They can be confident in the own right; confident about their careers, the fact they have friends and a full and happy life alone.

I will share my story about how I went for the wrong types of men and how I've come to meet a " nice guy " with whom I don't have guess with insofar as his intentions are concerned. It's so obvious that the guy was not only taken by me at first site, but he is falling for my personality, my work ethic and tenacity at the fact I am struggling with the workload in my medical degree yet still loving every moment of it, and he is just really into Leigh the woman.

This is the first " nice guy " I've given a chance. Here's my brief story of the types of men I once went for and how I've changed my tune. I'm trying.

I didn't last long single. I bumped into a guy who I not only felt the fireworks and instant spark and attraction for, but he is actually a nice guy. He brings me flowers at college. He's relationship minded yet he's not future talking or acting desperate or too " nice guy " like. He's still confident and assured despite not being my usual type.

My usual type and why I initially planned to take a break from dating, are player unavailable types...I'd get high on the instant spark and then higher if the guy was unavailable yet he ALMOST seemed to want to change his player ways for me. I got a guy recently, from Ireland, to think for half a moment that wow he was super into me unlike he was with other girls. I got a thrill from a bad guy temporarily thinking that our instant connection and intence chemistry, meant that he should consider settling down for me.

I went for players who felt that they were bellow my league look wise and who felt intense chemistry with me. They thought I was drop dead gorgeous and felt lucky to have me. Those instant connections... And I got them good for a week or maybe three. They were infatuated. I got a thrill from the brief moment where these non committal men actually felt that I was the woman they should change for due to their intense feeling that were merely chemistry and lust driven....

Where as now yes I still need that instant spark and intence chemistry...but I have left behind the thrill of the chase. I admit, my attraction was butterflies in steroids with players once I saw that they were unavailable.. I then got hooked on whatever little thing they were willing to give..the prospect of changing a player thriller me to no end.

I'm meeting the new guys friends this weekend. It's a birthday. He felt too embarrassed to ask me as he doesn't want me to think that he believes in instant relationships or that he's top full on too soon. But he managed to ask I accepted. I'll never make a thread about this new guy on loveshack because he just seems very relationship minded and I feel it's heading in a good direction and therefore don't have to ask everyone about why or if he will call. He calls. He turns up with flowers. He couldn't help but tell his mates that he met a new woman who is really gorgeous and awesome and they were, quite naturally, dying to meet me asap haha.....

Even if your love language isn't getting flowers and being the recipient of gifts, remember that once you meet a good potential candidate, you just won't have to write about his on here. He'll ask you on dates and he won't ask you to his house right away.

This prospect told me that he would never see of inviting me over because he would never want me to think that all he's after is sex. He said he is so excited about taking me out to dinner and movies on Friday because he just loves to spoil me with wonderful meals. Although I insist on treating him to drinks. Not that he'd ever ask me to pay while with him

I really hope you don't require too many years of hard work before you are able to feel great chemistry with nice guys who want relationships. It was pretty clear R never wanted one! And at least you know now that guys like A will still try to hook up with you even after they know that they're not crazy about you enough to warrant a relationship, even though they ARE relationship minded. Relationship minded men continue to hang out with women long after they know that they just aren't that into you. Don't let it happen again.

I

Edited March 11, 2015 by Leigh 87

March 12, 2015

I will share my story about how I went for the wrong types of men and how I've come to meet a " nice guy " with whom I don't have guess with insofar as his intentions are concerned. It's so obvious that the guy was not only taken by me at first site, but he is falling for my personality, my work ethic and tenacity at the fact I am struggling with the workload in my medical degree yet still loving every moment of it, and he is just really into Leigh the woman.

Didn't you say you met this guy for the first time last Friday?

Anyway...Venus, even if it is normal for women to walk home from the beach in bikini tops (which is a far cry from "very often in a bikini in public", but I digress) where you live, just don't do it on a dating website. Like lissvarna said, it's the female equivalent of a shirtless guy posing in front of a mirror. Online dating is unfortunately all about snap judgments and you don't want that snap judgment to be "bah, she wants attention". I'm glad you changed yours.

You sound like you're doing great, but:

I guess it's been easy to fall into a fling with someone (like R, as a recent example) who deep down I knew I would never want to build a relationship with, but was craving the superficial affection, attention, sex, company, etc.

Is this really true? You seemed pretty into him, and even more into the idea that this tough guy could be falling for you and become a white picket fence husband just for you. I think it might be more accurate to say you knew deep down that he would never want to build a relationship with you, but you wanted to believe you would be the one to get under his skin and turn a bad boy good. I don't think there's anything shameful in fantasizing about that, but it's just not realistic.

You know what you want. Go out there and get it. And keep us posted!

March 12, 2015

Venus. Just because you're attractivedoesn't mean you have no control over the way men see you or your sexual activity. I'm attractive. When meeting men I give out a vibe that lets them know I'm smart, competent, classy and that I'm not going home with them. That there's a lot more to me. Going on about how attractive you are is not convincing (like as if there's nothing you can do to lead with other qualities).

March 12, 2015

I would say over 85% of the men I've ever dated in my adult life are very eager to have that family and stability.

Venus, this makes no sense. 85% in your whole life and you're still single. I think you project the qualities that you want them to have onto them. You 100% refuse to consider that the men you are going after are not the family man type.

Explain how that computes, then, that you are attractive, have a great personality, are looking to settle down, and 85% of your dates want similar things, but it hasn't worked out. You've got a big disconnect happening somewhere.

Like with R, for example. Mid 30s, career minded, advanced degree... never had time for a wife and family, but he talked about how he wanted that.

Haven't you just found him trawling for p*ssy, er, "Netflix and wine at his place", on the online site? Interesting that he told you he wanted a wife and family. Interesting that those are the things that men know to say to get a woman who wants a commitment into bed with them, even if they don't want the commitment. Interesting that you got into bed with him, told us he was wonderful underneath it all, but he wasn't.

It's almost as if you can't trust someone's words until you've known them long enough to verify their words with their actions!

In fact, every man I've ever dated (with the exception of maybe one or two) expressed often how much he wanted a wife and family. Even just recently. So I guess it must vary with demographics.?

It must be that they know that is what you want, and you don't bother to wait to verify that their actions match their words, since you buy into the fairytale that because they think you're pretty and tell you pretty words they're going to sweep you off your feet and take care of all of your problems and you will live happily ever after together with 2.63 kids, a minivan, and a sports car.

No, that's not true. Those qualities are very important to me and I think that it's totally possible to find 'my type' who also possesses those important core values.

It's interesting that you think that despite all of the evidence to the contrary of you continually barking up the wrong trees.

In fact, I know a couple of those kinds of men, (who are taken)... but that's my kind of guy... the one who has those alpha qualities with the good true stuff.

Did you see the part of how I said that the alpha males who want to settle down and have a family have already done so? You're in your 30s Venus. It's not the same as when you were in your 20s, but you want to believe that it is. You keep talking about the qualities of your ex boyfriends that you dated when you were younger. It's a different game now.

To me those are the 'old school' kind of men... and rare! But they sure do exist. And I want to hold out for that!

So you are acknowledging you are waiting for a unicorn and cannot possibly be attracted to anything else. And you're in your 30s and want a family. Venus, it is time to stop living in fantasy land and get real.

I'd certainly be OPEN to it and would give the underdog a chance. I'm not ONLY attracted to the outgoing charming alpha males... maybe they're just my weak spot.

How exactly are you going to give the underdog a chance, again? I see in your replies that you are still attached to the guy observing you in the wild, being so unbearably attracted to you that he cannot control himself and he MUST have you, and coming over to you and then romance and hearts and little bunnies bound around happily ever after.

How does the underdog fit in with that? And interesting choice of words, there, with "underdog". Lots of judgment is implied.

Maybe because the men who I've respected the most in my life are the ones whose qualities I seek.

Explain this again. Which qualities? Alpha male protector? Or genuine, kind, stable, loving? Because you seek the former, not the latter. You want the former to also have the latter, but the cocky arrogance is way more important to you. Men who are cocky and arrogant don't tend to treat women well. You know that. You just have this fantasy that you refuse to part with that you will find validation by being so attractive that a guy who wouldn't ordinarily settle down will settle down with you.

I see what you are saying. But without you knowing me and my relationship with my dad..The thing is... my father was never really that kind of guy. He has similar qualities to the men I'm attracted to.. but what I find myself drawn to is the super conservative and stable type, and my dad was the complete opposite.

~Woosh goes idoltree's point right over Venus' head~

You are seeking A father because of your lingering issues with YOUR father, and him not being there for you in childhood. I did not say that you are seeking your father, but that you want a partner who can also be your male parent and keep you safe.

You are not approaching relationships from an emotionally healthy standpoint if you are looking for a partner who will also parent you. It means you are not ready for a healthy relationship, because your people-picker is flawed. It is being run by a little girl, not an adult woman.

I find myself drawn to the life of the party, the deep thinker and the social butterfly... like my dad (which are his positive qualities). My dad was very much a family man.. but very self centered and freewheeling, very distant but still loving. I want the stable and secure 'rock'. I don't view him like that. He was 'there' but he wasn't there. Interestingly, as you mention... I seek out men who are NOT like my father because my dad wasn't really there for me and I want someone who will be. I'm not exactly sure what that means. But I'll have to think about that more.

You are looking for someone with the fatherly qualities that you didn't get. The little girl whose father wasn't there for her is inside of you, trying to right that wrong. She once took her father not being there for her personally, since the child brain is not capable of understanding parents as anything other than altruistic and all powerful. Therefore when a child's needs aren't being met by one or both parents, they blame themselves. They feel low self-worth.

I am guessing that this is what you did as a small child. It was at the same time you were reading about Disney princesses and playing with pretty pretty Barbie dolls. And that little girl decided that to no longer feel pain, she was going to be pretty like a princess when she grew up. She'd be so pretty that she'd find a powerful prince to come along and rescue her from her sadness and live out a life of fuzzy bunnies and happiness.

Your thinking about relationships is very immature and shallow, Venus, as others have pointed out to you. And I think it's because it's the little girl version of you running the show, versus the adult woman with common sense. You are very invested in that fairy tale playing out so that little girl can feel better about herself. Whereas some of us are telling you that the solution to healing the little girl is not going to be found in adult relationships. It takes work with a trained professional to talk to her, to hear her needs, and to meet her needs yourself, so that she will let go of the reigns. And then adult Venus with common sense will start making some sort of sense, and not have rigid black and white views about things that are clearly still blind spots, and won't need to contradict herself, and might be able to start dating and leaving the fairy tale behind.

Sure. I think that IS what I'm after. Isn't this a standard, across the board female desire?

Uh, I was attracted and invested in bad boys and making them good boys using my looks and my love when I was 16 years old. Then I worked on my daddy issues, and can look back and laugh at myself.

Now I know better.

Isn't that why women get married historically? For protection? Like the father giving his daughter away at her wedding. It's a passing over of 'protection' and guidance?

So women are property and they were happy with that? The history books have quite different information about how that turned out.

And, no, I have no desire to find a protector. I want to find a partner. I don't need a protector, as I am my own protector.

Like I said, my dad wasn't there for me in the ways I needed him to be. It makes sense that I'm drawn to very strong male figures who can be a source of guidance and protection. I guess that's why I tend to cling to certain types because I think that they can provide that. The hero?

The little girl wants this.

Ultimately, that IS what I want. And I still believe there are men out there who are like that. Like I said, I know a few. If I know a few personally, there must be more out there.

A guy who would agree to being a pseudo-parent to an adult woman is going to have some issues of his own. He's not going to be genuine, giving, and stable, because those guys want a partner.

I'm not saying it can't happen or that I'm not open to it. But I have yet to meet a man who I'm over the moon about who is NOT that strong 'hero' type who is super confident and masculine and makes me feel... well, like a woman. I'm not saying it isn't possible...getting to know someone in time.

You don't inspire confidence in me that it is possible with the way you explain this.

I hate to bring up my ex again but he used to comment on how feminine I am and how it made it him feel more like a man, and I felt the same way towards him. It made us very drawn to each other, for obvious reasons. It's hard not to be attracted to that.. isn't that a natural thing?

I agree with you on this. If you want a masculine man, you need to be a feminine woman. A feminine ADULT woman, not a little girl.

There are facets of the male and female that are appealing to the opposite sex since the beginning of time. Maybe a lot of women don't seek that or need that anymore?

I agree with this, Venus. Our popular culture is full of demonstrations of the harpy exasperated wife with the dumb husband who can't do anything right. Many women buy into this and wonder why their relationships crumble. Having respect for your man, maintaining femininity, and keeping yourself looking good for your guy are qualities that I absolutely agree with. These may not be important for men with more feminine energy, but they still want some of that to make them feel good about themselves as men.

Call me corny and hopeless..

Okay. You're corny and hopeless.

but I want my hero. I want my white knight. Doesn't mean I have to be a damsel in distress and subservient. My own dad once said he sees the 'little girl' in all women. I think all good men see it the same way. All good men (the kind of men I want) want to protect the women in their lives, as friends, daughters, wives, sisters, whomever she may be. There's nothing wrong with me seeking protection from a man.

There is indeed something wrong with you seeking protection from a man. It's a little girl looking for a daddy so she can feel good about herself. You need to work on healing that little girl, and not seeking to accomplish this through relationships, which is what I think you've been doing over and over again.

The man I end up with I would like to think will be is someone who I can rely on, admire, respect, and will protect me. Of course that doesn't mean he can't be a quiet introspective guy.

Where ya gonna find your quiet introspective guy, Venus? He's not the one who will be out and see your cleavage beckoning to him from across the bar and come over to talk to you and sweep you off your feet...

Well, I guess I've rather have been 'picked' than do the 'picking'. I suppose that has been a major roadblock for me. Like I mentioned with my guy friend who recently fell in love again after many years of being single. He told me he stopped taking whatever fell in his lap and went after what HE wanted... no longer being 'lazy' and 'inactive' about it. I think I can make that correlation to what you are getting at here. My little girl fairy tale never did come true, or never did stay true. I still would like to think in the back of my mind that the man I end up with will be the one who swoops me up (why? because the kind of man I want will see me, fall for me,and climb mountains to be with me... romantic fairytale to the utmost)... but in the meantime I can attempt to start 'picking' instead. I would still rather be rescued by Prince Charming than go actively seeking him out. I would guess that I'm no different from all women when I admit that!

Again, while I agree in theory with you picking the guy, it's clear that you're still struggling with who you are drawn to, so I don't understand how this is going to make things better. Additionally, I still maintain that the cocky alpha men you're drawn to are not going to respond well to a woman picking/pursuing him. Therefore I cannot see how you selecting the guy is going to get you what you want as you currently are. The qualities that you are initially attracted to need to change if this plan is going to work.

Yes, in a way, I have resented it. Like I said, I wanted to be 'picked'. I didn't want to 'shop'. I wanted to be chosen, not choose. I think I'm getting past that now. Still not totally convinced, but trying.

Keep trying. The part of you that isn't convinced is your inner child. She is throwing a tantrum because she deserves a daddy to come along and rescue her and make her feel safe. That's what happened with Sleeping Beauty and Snow White...

Think for a moment of the guys out there who "white knight" women. They have low self-worth, so they invest in this fantasy of finding a troubled struggling woman and sweeping her off her feet and she'll love him forever for treating her well. Those guys never seem to find what they're looking for. A person driven by fantasies that are rooted in low self-worth are continually attracted to flawed women, and so a flawed relationship is what they will get, if they even get that relationship. Many of them get used and get put on the backburner, but they have faith that if they just prove themselves worthy, they'll be happy. The relationships that they get are full of drama. They choose women with problems, and they get problems as a result, and there is a total mental block toward understanding that they cannot seek relationships from a point of low self-worth, because that's what they reap. They sabotage themselves over and over again, and they're the last to see it.

This is, essentially, the male version of what you are doing. You lead from low-self worth, so you want to use sexiness as your hook to get the relationship. You want guys to want to give to you, so you give your body to them. You want to be swept off your feet and be treated well by giving, because you don't understand that you, as you are, are enough. You cannot see that the men who are drawn to you when you are leading with low self-worth are flawed themselves. You cannot see that you end up being used when you are seeking relationships from a point of low self-worth. And instead of working on your low self-worth and understanding you need a whole different attitude and a different set of dating skills, you just really want what you've been doing to work out. But what you want can't work out, because it isn't healthy. But you've got something to prove, so you keep going as you have been.

Just as the low self-worth white knights aren't going to find what they seek because their methodology and beliefs about relationships are flawed, you aren't going to find what you seek because your methodology and beliefs about relationships are flawed.

Personally, I'd love to see a version of Venus who shelves the idea of leading with her attractiveness with attractive men, and understands that there is this whole other world of healthy relationships that she has yet to see for herself, because she hasn't been interested in it. She sees what she wants to see, because she wants to verify her flawed beliefs about relationships.

I much prefer meeting someone in real life. Just the romantic in me. You know, locking eyes from across the room. The fate thing.

Fate is great for romantic comedies, not real life. This shows your desire to lead with the shallow.

I always felt that online dating was very forced and unnatural. I don't necessarily see that so much anymore.

Good. It's not forced and unnatural. It is using different tools to meet people. You need to remind yourself that what you've been doing isn't working. If you haven't met the guy for you out in your real life, why would it suddenly happen? Why would you continue invest in something that seems unlikely, given that it hasn't happened yet? It's like you're the person taking every paycheck and spending $200 on lottery tickets and contributing nothing to their retirement account, and expecting it all to work out in the end, because dreams can come true. It isn't sensible, and it is sabotaging behavior.

I'd just rather meet the man of my dreams by chance. I would say in my heart I am 100% romantic as compared to logical!

Because winning him over with your looks is still the most important thing to you.

There is no more bikini shot in my profile. I deleted it. It wasn't a sexually suggestive photo but I see what you mean about someone being wary of that.

Good. As others have said, better for your body to be a nice surprise for the guy who proves himself worthy over time by getting to see it.

But here's the problem: in real life, I am very often in a bikini in public during the warm weather months.

There is nothing wrong with swimsuits at the beach or out on the water. I wear bikinis too.

When I go out, or even go to work, I wear clothes that are flattering to my figure, and maybe a bit of cleavage. I don't wear too much makeup or look fake and unnatural.

That's great. Me too!

What's the difference? If I meet someone in real life, he's going to likely see me in my bikini, or in form-fitting clothes, he will see the outline of my shape regardless. I don't show a lot of skin, but I show my figure by the clothes I wear. I've met a handful of guys when I was wearing conservative work attire, or a nice dress, or full on covered up with a coat, scarf, high socks and boots.

Because it is about context. Those guys taking shirtless dirty mirror selfies are shirtless in real life, sometimes, too.

The photos you choose to display of yourself show your values. People online are making judgements about you and your character by looking at what you choose to show them about yourself.

On my profile, I have a few shots of me with drinks in my hand. I keep thinking about this. It's happened because I get pictures taken of me by friends when we're out having fun somewhere. Am I making myself look like a party girl? Who am I attracting by having that be the first impression of me? Who am I repelling by having that be the first impression of me?

Contrast that with meeting for a drink for a first date. There I am, with a drink in my hand. They're not going to think less of me for that.

See how context makes a difference?

I guess my point is, why conceal what I actually look like in real life in my online profile pics?

You're not concealing. A full body shot of you in a cute dress is all you need to show your shape. By having demure but attractive photos, you're giving off a message that you have more to offer a man than just your body and that you know that. Displaying your body more prominently, wanting to lead with your body, means that you don't know that.

How people will perceive you isn't up for debate. You can't change that because of how you want them to perceive you. "Oh, hey, this girl in a bikini. I bet she has a great... heart and she'd be a great... mother to my children." ain't gonna happen!

I guess it's been easy to fall into a fling with someone (like R, as a recent example) who deep down I knew I would never want to build a relationship with, but was craving the superficial affection, attention, sex, company, etc.
Is this really true? You seemed pretty into him, and even more into the idea that this tough guy could be falling for you and become a white picket fence husband just for you.

I see you're busy re-writing history again, Venus. The problem is that this thread has written evidence that you did not feel the way you present yourself feeling. You were busy arguing R's merits, and listing the signs that he was going to value you and commit to you. Someone who "deep down doesn't want to build a relationship with someone" does not act like you did.

Stop re-writing history. You wanted to be with R despite early evidence to the contrary that you shouldn't believe his words without observing his actions over time. You slept with him and lost the ability to observe him over time, because that's when you became deeply invested in the thought that he was a good guy and he wanted to commit to you, too. There was absolutely no part of you that was wary, otherwise you wouldn't have been hyperactively listing the "signs" about how things were going to go the way you wanted them to and all of us were silly for trying to harsh your mellow.

You are here for self-improvement. Self-improvement will be difficult if you keep trying to re-write history in order to save face with yourself and with us. You aren't fooling anyone besides yourself.

Edited March 12, 2015 by idoltree

March 16, 2015

Hi all, it's been nice taking a break from dating (and posting).

Venus. Just because you're attractive doesn't mean you have no control over the way men see you or your sexual activity. I'm attractive. When meeting men I give out a vibe that lets them know I'm smart, competent, classy and that I'm not going home with them. That there's a lot more to me. Going on about how attractive you are is not convincing (like as if there's nothing you can do to lead with other qualities).

I also do the same, Lissvarna. I get the gist of what you all are getting at though: being overtly sexy as compared to toned down and more conservative. I don't think I come across as a highly sexed attention grabber who acts like a bimbo though (I'm just listing the opposite of your bolded words above.)

Venus, this makes no sense. 85% in your whole life and you're still single. I think you project the qualities that you want them to have onto them. You 100% refuse to consider that the men you are going after are not the family man type.

I'm sorry, I think numbers and percentaqes should be left out. I would say IN GENERAL, MOST of the men I've dated have been the family man type. It just didn't work out. My exes certainly weren't responsible family man types.

Haven't you just found him trawling for p*ssy, er, "Netflix and wine at his place", on the online site? Interesting that he told you he wanted a wife and family. Interesting that those are the things that men know to say to get a woman who wants a commitment into bed with them, even if they don't want the commitment. Interesting that you got into bed with him, told us he was wonderful underneath it all, but he wasn't.

Ok, well.. here's a little more info on R. I've still been on the site. He is also on there and shows up in my feed and 'near me', so needless to say I see him quite often on there, which can't be avoided unless I block, I suppose.

The other day, I saw he had visited my profile. Then I noticed that he changed his 'intent' to 'actively seeking a relationship'... compared to the week prior when it was 'no interest in a relationship or commitment of any kind'. If what you say is true, he's an ass for playing like he's interested in a relationship. But... just from what I know about him, it seems possible.

I haven't checked out his profile. I mean, I'm curious. I know this is lame... but was he trying to 'break the ice' there?

We never spoke again after Vday. But it's kind of like we could both say the same thing about what happened: neither one of us ever made contact again.

It's clear that we will be 'seeing' each other around. We live in the same town. I thought about just sending a message, 'hey there, small world' or something. I liked him. I just truly thought we weren't on the same page with what we were looking for. I never did ask. Maybe I was wrong?

It's almost as if you can't trust someone's words until you've known them long enough to verify their words with their actions!

Absolutely! That's why next time I want to take my sweet time (or at a much slower pace than before)

It must be that they know that is what you want, and you don't bother to wait to verify that their actions match their words, since you buy into the fairytale that because they think you're pretty and tell you pretty words they're going to sweep you off your feet and take care of all of your problems and you will live happily ever after together with 2.63 kids, a minivan, and a sports car.

Ha! Never a minivan. Please shoot me if I ever drive one of those.

Did you see the part of how I said that the alpha males who want to settle down and have a family have already done so?

Have they? Isn't this demographics too? What about men who spent their entire 20s in school and securing their career? A lot of the men in my area are deployed most of their adult lives and don't settle down until their 30s. I know plenty of men in their 30s who have never been married and ARE interested in a family. Actually, in my life and my friends, it seems more common than men in their 20s.

How exactly are you going to give the underdog a chance, again? I see in your replies that you are still attached to the guy observing you in the wild, being so unbearably attracted to you that he cannot control himself and he MUST have you, and coming over to you and then romance and hearts and little bunnies bound around happily ever after.
How does the underdog fit in with that? And interesting choice of words, there, with "underdog". Lots of judgment is implied.

Again, all I mean is I want someone who is confident and unafraid to APPROACH me. How does the 'underdog' fit in with that? I'm not sure if he can. I won't settle for a man who isn't confident and that's that. There's a fine line between confidence and arrogance; the more reserved guy can still certainly be confident.

Explain this again. Which qualities? Alpha male protector? Or genuine, kind, stable, loving? Because you seek the former, not the latter. You want the former to also have the latter, but the cocky arrogance is way more important to you. Men who are cocky and arrogant don't tend to treat women well. You know that. You just have this fantasy that you refuse to part with that you will find validation by being so attractive that a guy who wouldn't ordinarily settle down will settle down with you.

I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. I want someone kind, genuine, stable and loving, who is also strong and confident.

Sure, I'm guilty of being drawn to the cocky types... but now, I kind of see things more clearly than I used to when I was younger...and although confidence is still sexy as hell, overtly cocky now is a red flag.

You are seeking A father because of your lingering issues with YOUR father, and him not being there for you in childhood. I did not say that you are seeking your father, but that you want a partner who can also be your male parent and keep you safe.

Ok. Yes, I suppose I am. I am still angry about my father not being there for me when I needed him, or just in general. Because it still happens.

For example, he told me just this past week that he would call me over the weekend and come visit, and he never did. Story of my life. He's not been dependable. He's sporadic and I had to fight my own battles (which is not necessarily a bad thing).. he's just a passive father figure.

My STEPFATHER on the other hand (who also took a big part in raising me) is the epitome of the stable family man, dependable and present. I'm lucky to have him as a stable father figure.

You are not approaching relationships from an emotionally healthy standpoint if you are looking for a partner who will also parent you. It means you are not ready for a healthy relationship, because your people-picker is flawed. It is being run by a little girl, not an adult woman.

I see. Maybe I had to become a woman first before I was ready. And I wasn't an adult woman until now. (Although still not 100%, but closer than before.)

You are looking for someone with the fatherly qualities that you didn't get. The little girl whose father wasn't there for her is inside of you, trying to right that wrong. She once took her father not being there for her personally, since the child brain is not capable of understanding parents as anything other than altruistic and all powerful. Therefore when a child's needs aren't being met by one or both parents, they blame themselves. They feel low self-worth.

Yes, textbook isn't it?

And, no, I have no desire to find a protector. I want to find a partner. I don't need a protector, as I am my own protector. The little girl wants this.

I understand now. Maybe I wasn't ready for a healthy relationship until I realized this. I'm definitely not a girl anymore, time to grow up.

There is indeed something wrong with you seeking protection from a man. It's a little girl looking for a daddy so she can feel good about herself. You need to work on healing that little girl, and not seeking to accomplish this through relationships, which is what I think you've been doing over and over again.
Where ya gonna find your quiet introspective guy, Venus? He's not the one who will be out and see your cleavage beckoning to him from across the bar and come over to talk to you and sweep you off your feet...

Sure, of course not. You know, Idoltree, I think I'll just know it when I see it.

The qualities that you are initially attracted to need to change if this plan is going to work.

I get it. I think I'm getting away from the old habits just by being aware of them. Maybe it took me this long to be ready to see it.

Think for a moment of the guys out there who "white knight" women. They have low self-worth, so they invest in this fantasy of finding a troubled struggling woman and sweeping her off her feet and she'll love him forever for treating her well. Those guys never seem to find what they're looking for. A person driven by fantasies that are rooted in low self-worth are continually attracted to flawed women, and so a flawed relationship is what they will get, if they even get that relationship.

That's a great point! Thank you for reminding me.

Personally, I'd love to see a version of Venus who shelves the idea of leading with her attractiveness with attractive men, and understands that there is this whole other world of healthy relationships that she has yet to see for herself, because she hasn't been interested in it. She sees what she wants to see, because she wants to verify her flawed beliefs about relationships.

Good. It's not forced and unnatural. It is using different tools to meet people. You need to remind yourself that what you've been doing isn't working.

I am no longer against online dating. I just still prefer meeting someone in real life.

I see you're busy re-writing history again, Venus. The problem is that this thread has written evidence that you did not feel the way you present yourself feeling. You were busy arguing R's merits, and listing the signs that he was going to value you and commit to you. Someone who "deep down doesn't want to build a relationship with someone" does not act like you did.

Well, there were things about R that I did not choose to write about on LS that made me say that. I don't want to go into it now.

Sure, I would've liked it to work out, I admit that. Maybe what I meant to say was deep down I knew it wouldn't.

March 16, 2015

I'm sorry, I think numbers and percentaqes should be left out. I would s
Ok, well.. here's a little more info on R. I've still been on the site. He is also on there and shows up in my feed and 'near me', so needless to say I see him quite often on there, which can't be avoided unless I block, I suppose.
The other day, I saw he had visited my profile. Then I noticed that he changed his 'intent' to 'actively seeking a relationship'... compared to the week prior when it was 'no interest in a relationship or commitment of any kind'. If what you say is true, he's an ass for playing like he's interested in a relationship. But... just from what I know about him, it seems possible.
I haven't checked out his profile. I mean, I'm curious. I know this is lame... but was he trying to 'break the ice' there?
We never spoke again after Vday. But it's kind of like we could both say the same thing about what happened: neither one of us ever made contact again.
It's clear that we will be 'seeing' each other around. We live in the same town. I thought about just sending a message, 'hey there, small world' or something. I liked him. I just truly thought we weren't on the same page with what we were looking for. I never did ask. Maybe I was wrong?

no one will agree with me, but I'd say yeah, why not send him a message? The reason I say this is because his response or lack thereof may give you some kind of clues to what happened. not that it would be a big shock to any of us, but maybe it would be good for YOU to see based on his reaction what type of guy he really is & why these types are no good for you. I'm thinking he won't respond at all or he will be overly responsive, in an attempt to get easy sex again.

March 16, 2015

no one will agree with me, but I'd say yeah, why not send him a message? The reason I say this is because his response or lack thereof may give you some kind of clues to what happened. not that it would be a big shock to any of us, but maybe it would be good for YOU to see based on his reaction what type of guy he really is & why these types are no good for you. I'm thinking he won't respond at all or he will be overly responsive, in an attempt to get easy sex again.

There's no harm in me sending a message or saying hello on the street, which is bound to happen.

All I'd say is something neutral anyway.

Well, Lissvarna, you may be right in your predictions.. although still I'm not convinced. Maybe he really IS looking for something serious, it just wasn't with me. Hell, I could say the same thing about him, and no harm.

If he happened to be overly responsive, I'd take the opportunity to talk about things that were left unsaid.

When it rains it pours

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