NC breach. Shields were down, hull damaged.

[Striver]

I am a marriage advocate, but I think that CM and CD are a terrible couple and should probably separate if not divorce.

 

CM's love for CD sounds like the love of a permissive parent, not a husband. There are no children here. I do actually think the footdragging on kids is a red flag. Issues are not being dealt with, it is just one huge holding pattern.

 

CD can go work on her issues and maybe be a better wife to someone else, maybe a mother if she works on her issues. CM can go figure out how to be more emotionally involved with his own life, or just focus on music and forget about relationships for now. That's my take.

[velvette]

Whether I agree with the processes or not does not change them, nor does it dismiss my curiosity in them.

 

They are not excuses. We all agree she's given me more than enough reasons to leave.

 

Not exactly true. CD will change when something motivates her to and not until then.

 

Whether that comes from pressure internally applied or externally applied or a combination of both.

 

Same for you.

 

She can be as messed up as she wants to stay, but the reality is that lots of messed up people stop inflicting negative behavior on others with a simple choice. The fact that she has issues even if they are severe is not stopping her from acting in ways that continue to hurt you and her.

 

And yet people way more messed up do it every day. The alcoholic or drug abuser to never indulges again. The abuser who never raises a hand in anger again and learns ways to stop that cycle. The husband or wife who refuses to participate in a chronic argument and walks away instead. On and on. If you didn't get all the skills you need to grow up from your parents, then it becomes a choice. CD simply hasn't made the choice to grow up and operates like a child.

 

She is probably stuck developmentally at whatever age she experienced what causes her issues. Its not rocket science. Which is why I have to wonder about her therapist or what shes doing in therapy. Therapy can be a very self absorbed process and if all the therapist is doing is listening to her whine about writing letters to OM to get closure.......well.....not effective.

 

None of that really matters for you though. You cant make her do the right thing.

 

You can only decide what is the right thing for you. What do you want your M to look like. Is what she does acceptable of unacceptable. Is this the way you want to live.

 

Sometimes separation is a good way to get clarity.

[drifter777]

If you believe in going the analytical route, I suggest researching about the relationship between the narcissist and co-dependent. This is a text book example of two personality types that are like gasoline to flame.

 

You need to find a therapist ASAP, but until then, read, read and read.

 

CD isn't analytical, she runs on pure emotion, id and impulse. Logic only comes in later as a means of relieving her guilt through excuse making.

 

There is nothing logical about stalking out your affair partner from 1.5 years ago, at work, to give them a letter against your husbands wishes. That's some carnal, primal, reptilian stuff right there. There is NOTHING you'll ever be able to do to stop this from happening again.

Great post! Regarding the codependent and the narcissist being like gas to a flame, they are also attracted to each other like moth's to a flame. They are polar opposites, and the relationship can last for decades because they are both getting what they need. Please educate yourself on this phenomenen. This quote from "The Burning Candle Syndrome" is (crushingly) so true:

 

Codependents confuse caretaking and sacrifice with loyalty and love. They are proud of their dedication but end up being rejected. Narcissists on the other hand seek out codependents. Why? Because a codependent provides the narcissist with the self-importance and admiration he/she needs without having to return much.

 

CM: you need counseling to address the root of your codependency or, as you put it, "conflict avoidance". As for CD, narcisissm can be treated (everything can be treated) but the prognosis for any meaningful "recovery" is very poor. If you stay with her make no mistake: you will continue suffer great emotional damage that will fuel your codependency. After all, that is why you are with her in the first place. You will always suffer direct or collateral damage because she cannot do anything BUT hurt you. That is why she is with you. You have to genuinely want to change your life and work with a good counselor to change your behavior.

 

Codependency is an emotional disorder with a good prognosis for significant recovery. Narcissism is a personality disorder (NPD) - huge difference - with the prognosis of very limited recovery at best. A quote from the "Encyclopedia of Mental Disorders" regarding prognosis :

 

"Most patients with NPD become increasingly depressed as they grow older within a youth-oriented culture and lose their looks and overall vitality."

As far as having children with a narcissistic women, check out this article in Psychology Today:

 

The Narcissistic Mother II | Psychology Today

Edited October 21, 2014 by drifter777

[whichwayisup]

It's interesting that CD is following along on your thread and of all the things written, this is the only thing she "liked".

 

 

Well, if CD decides to open up and post, I hope people give her a chance and try to help her, not run her off LS.

 

It's obvious she has issues and major problems letting go of xOM. I doubt very much she is gonna start up the affair again with him or anybody else but her need for validation, need for complete closure tied up with pretty bows and not accepting anything less IS what's driving her, even though she wants a baby badly, that can't justify what she is doing now.

[2sunny]

I think if you stay with CD you just continue with more piss poor behavior from her.

 

If she's been getting counseling - it's not helping her! She may be a narcissist and those types can rarely be helped/changed at their core.

 

 

CD - I was cheering you on but this turn of events leaves me shaking my head and wanting to tell CM "no more" - unless he really wants to live with long term abuse and disrespect from you.

 

My hope is that he realizes you continue to cause harm by your actions.

 

You CAN change CD... But you haven't. You use a lot of words to try and convince us you've changed but you haven't changed deep inside yourself.

 

Do CM a favor and end it - leave him alone to heal and move forward from your toxic actions.

 

The M can not heal when CD keeps fueling the fire!!!

[thummper]

I'm somewhat ashamed of being so negative in my comments. I know CM is no doubt furious at what she did, and from his viewpoint deservedly so, but I suddenly feel like I'm bashing someone who's not here to defend herself. I can see where she probably feels that she would be blasted from all angles and condemned by everyone here. I don't think I'll comment further. I'll just leave it to be settled between the two of them. CM sounded perplexed and disappointed, but it also sounded as though he wasn't giving up.

[2sunny]

She has been consistent in ruining her chances to set things right.

 

I can't see any good reason YOU need to continue to go along with her ruining things.

 

Her actions never seem to match her words. That's a huge trust issue.

 

Her behavior is concerning too... Does she do drugs or drink too much?

[Compulsive Musician]

She doesn't do any drugs, she drinks wine, but not excessively.

 

I'm sure you've all experienced a point, emotionally, where something is so glaringly ****ed up that you laugh. That's what this is for me.

 

Yes, I'm pissed, and hurt, and disappointed, and confused. I don't know (particularly after this last year and 1/2) if I'm not in touch with my emotions. I think I've got a pretty direct link to them, and their expression. They get their full runs, trust me.

 

I aim to recount things as direct and honest as I can about my perspective, so everyone has a basis for comparison. Sometimes great insight is gained. Sometimes CD and I have great discussions, sparked by forums.

 

I hope she does post, that she attempts to lay out the hows and whys. And I hope LS does its thing.

 

I know she's earned the ire of many here for her actions. She's not an ax murderer, she's an emotionally confused/ineffective partner. She's ****ed up some important things, and clearly she doesn't have a handle on/understand their mechanics.

 

LS always provides ideas for insight/perspective. I appreciate each of your posts. CD and I will be having a long discussion tonight.

 

Bob Dylan had a tune, "The Times, They Are a-Changin".

 

Never been much of a Dylan fan (his voice!), but this song has been like an anthem for me since last summer. So it continues.

[TrustedthenBusted]

No kids? Sheeeeiiiit....I'd be outta there like I was on fire.

[SawtoothMars]

She doesn't do any drugs, she drinks wine, but not excessively.

I'm sure you've all experienced a point, emotionally, where something is so glaringly ****ed up that you laugh. That's what this is for me.

Yes, I'm pissed, and hurt, and disappointed, and confused. I don't know (particularly after this last year and 1/2) if I'm not in touch with my emotions. I think I've got a pretty direct link to them, and their expression. They get their full runs, trust me.

I aim to recount things as direct and honest as I can about my perspective, so everyone has a basis for comparison. Sometimes great insight is gained. Sometimes CD and I have great discussions, sparked by forums.

I hope she does post, that she attempts to lay out the hows and whys. And I hope LS does its thing.

I know she's earned the ire of many here for her actions. She's not an ax murderer, she's an emotionally confused/ineffective partner. She's ****ed up some important things, and clearly she doesn't have a handle on/understand their mechanics.

LS always provides ideas for insight/perspective. I appreciate each of your posts. CD and I will be having a long discussion tonight.

Bob Dylan had a tune, "The Times, They Are a-Changin".

Never been much of a Dylan fan (his voice!), but this song has been like an anthem for me since last summer. So it continues.

 

Dylan could only hit 3 notes... and 2 of them were flat.

 

I'm not entirely sure I blame CD for this episode. I lean towards blaming you. I think you need to change. It's clear from her posts and from yours. You are not fighting for her yet.

 

You practically gave her permission to have an affair... and I don't see that you have changed. The 'times' can change, but until YOU do as well it's going to be more of the same.

[2sunny]

Considering that CD is self destructive and incapable of making emotionally MATURE decisions - she isn't a good candidate for having a baby right now!

 

She can't even control herself - her feelings - her actions. No needs to toss a baby into a scenario knowing that first it's wise to be capable of caring for self before caring for another.

 

 

Why you keep forgiving and overlooking her bad behavior is beyond me CM. Love YOURSELF enough to tell her YOU DESERVE BETTER than what she keeps offering you.

[Bugz Bunny]

She swears she 'needed to for closure'

 

So closure with him was more important than you and the marriage...Closure with OM was also more worth for her than keeping NC and helping you heal...

 

I read in some of her threads that NC for you was a big boundary and that it was something you wouldn't tolerate... Again she knew it would hurt you and again she chose to disrespect you to get closure with him...

 

I guess you are not that important to her at least not as important as OM is...I guess she would disagree with me but her actions speak for themselves...

 

Good Luck

[2sunny]

Looks like CD needs to change her counselor.

 

She needs a counselor who will help her understand boundaries, how her behavior hurts OTHERS, and how to be the change she wishes to see.

 

Evidence shows her current counselor isn't calling her out on her bull crap.

[SawtoothMars]

Looks like CD needs to change her counselor.

She needs a counselor who will help her understand boundaries, how her behavior hurts OTHERS, and how to be the change she wishes to see.

Evidence shows her current counselor isn't calling her out on her bull crap.

 

Do you really think this is the problem? I assume she knew the consequences of this well in advance.

[Bittersweetie]

My BH and I had a baby 2.5 years after d-day. It was a decision that we talked through extensively, and that we were BOTH 100% on board with. My age was a factor in our decision, in that I think that we both would've preferred a bit more time to spend on us. I had my baby at 40.

 

I can say that having a child added a lot of stress to our relationship (as it does to everyones most likely!). And I am so, so thankful that we were BOTH in healthy places by then, and had both addressed our relationship and coping skill issues. We handled those issues with our son together.

 

So I would recommend that no matter what you and CD decide to do right now, to take children off the table. You two are pretty much back to square one, and that is not the time to start a family. Just my thoughts.

[2sunny]

Do you really think this is the problem? I assume she knew the consequences of this well in advance.

 

I don't think it's the only problem.

 

I think it appears the current counselor may not be helping her to change her selfish tendencies.

[No Limit]

I think it appears the current counselor may not be helping her to change her selfish tendencies.

 

A counselor can only give advice. If the advice-seeking don't follow it, there's nothing anyone can do. It's not like a counselor puts you on a leash, maybe gives you a little spank with a rolled newspaper and then you behave again. A counselor usually works with adults who should be capable of thinking for themselves, of acting the way they want. If CDs desire is to be with OM, she should finally raise her chin and stick to her decision.

[2sunny]

But it does look like CD does want to continue to contact her OM.

 

And in that process she makes it clear to CM that the M isn't her top priority.

 

CM - why do you keep putting up with her lies? Why stay married to a gal that keeps trampling all over you?

 

Have you gotten any help regarding your doormat tendencies?

[SawtoothMars]

But it does look like CD does want to continue to contact her OM.

And in that process she makes it clear to CM that the M isn't her top priority.

 

Have you gotten any help regarding your doormat tendencies?

 

I think her motives are irrelevant. Most likely it is caused by not coming to terms with the fact that this was exclusively sexual for the OM. It's not very flattering to find that the person you risked your marriage to cheat with just views you as a human blow up doll.

 

Either way... the number one factor in both the cheating and continued pressing of NC boundaries is OP's persistent attempt to be the worlds most awesome doormat.

[2sunny]

Motives are always relevant!

 

IF she was MOTIVATED to repair the damage she caused she wouldn't have contacted him EVER again.

 

But she was MORE MOTIVATED to see her OM.

 

Intent and motivation are everything.

[Compulsive Musician]

Lol. Trying to imagine what the world's most awesome doormat looks like. Self-cleaning plush? Rigid, traction cleaning design?

Bold or muted colors?

[2sunny]

Ok then - continue with things then as they are and expect more of the same crap from her.

 

 

 

Lay there looking pretty - she will continue wiping her feet all over you.

 

She obviously thinks it's funny...

[Spectre]

I decided to delve into your guys' story. As someone who recently broke contact when my MM reached out I know what it is like to screw up again after a long time. Only I do agree her actions seem sort of stalkerish. Couldn't she have left the letter on his truck in the first place and if he got it he got but if not? Ciest le vie? Seems like she wanted to see him.

 

What should of been done is merely not contacting him at all. This is a big red flag is there is still more she needs to say to this creep.

[thummper]

Considering that CD is self destructive and incapable of making emotionally MATURE decisions - she isn't a good candidate for having a baby right now!

 

She can't even control herself - her feelings - her actions. No needs to toss a baby into a scenario knowing that first it's wise to be capable of caring for self before caring for another.

 

 

Why you keep forgiving and overlooking her bad behavior is beyond me CM. Love YOURSELF enough to tell her YOU DESERVE BETTER than what she keeps offering you.

 

He loves her, "warts" and all. Sort of inspiring.

[Spectre]

He loves her, "warts" and all. Sort of inspiring.

 

It's inspiring until you read her latest thread, which is more just..painful to read then inspiring.