NC breach. Shields were down, hull damaged.

[SawtoothMars]

I suppose I'm just venting. I don't have people I can really vent to about these things. It would just make people hate her, and while that would seem inviting when I'm pissed, it wouldn't be helpful the REST of the time. I do not want to have to attack and defend for perspective to others. More anger doesn't make for more peace.

 

Great... go ahead and vent.

 

Now. What are you going to DO about this?

[whichwayisup]

It makes me very sad reading your update tonight. I was really rooting for the two of you to get to the rainbow on the other side.

 

She's broken, way more broken inside than you ever realized. Counseling helps but she's not doing something right. Maybe she's been lying to herself as well as to you. I don't know, but something is very wrong that she after all this time still feels the need for closure on such a level that she went through such sneaky lengths to give him a letter. And yes, kudos to him for more or less running the other direction. It's obvious he wants nothing to do with her at all.

 

Glad to hear you're not going down the 'baby' path. Opening that door right now will make things more stressful and she's nowhere near ready, it'll make more problems in your marriage.

 

Wish you the best, whatever the outcome is.

 

And I hope she continues with counseling and finally can fix what's broken inside of her. If that means separating for a while, allowing her to "live life" without you in it, maybe she'll suffer more consequences, grow up and learn how to be the wife she's meant to be and the wife you deserve.

 

I agree with the others, she has little regard or respect for you and her promises, she's broken NC 3 times, intentionally. It's very disappointing so I can see how upset you are about this, she keeps blowing it every time you give her chance after chance...

[whichwayisup]

I personally believe that CD is desperate to be a mother, and it's not happening for her.

 

Yet her behaviour and actions show the complete opposite.

 

Desperation to be pregnant is poking holes in condoms or lying about being on birth control, doing anything to make it happen.

[Compulsive Musician]

Velvette, you bring up an interesting point.* I've never really thought about it before! That's my.. centered? tone, mentally.

 

As I write, my thoughts get restructured, my mind tries to work out details in a sort of assumed logic. A sort of itemizing, removed process. Never thought of it in that way. Interesting.

 

You're also right about having my own issues (don't we all). I've learned a lot more about myself (with each passing day.. see above! Lol)

Conflict avoidance was a big one of mine (a certain irony of everyone deferring to me as a leader figure).

 

 

I'm pretty sure CD is telling the truth about the letter. She'd shown me a number of goodbye letters that she'd written as a private exercise in closure, waaay back. They were angry, hurt, judgmental. They were self therapy.

 

When she told me she gave him one like it, I didn't care to read it first, because, as was pointed out, -It doesn't matter what they say-. The issue is bigger here.

 

But yea, I would've liked the last piece of mind to check.

 

My wife is a person who yearns to be understood (necessary or not), and in her head, she would somehow believe this would bring closure.

 

We're all generally in agreement. Breaching NC is a bad move.

 

I think, however, this is dumb at best, disrespectful at worst. Misguided, not thought through. Deceitful, but I don't think malicious. Naive, perhaps even desperate.

 

She doesn't want a response, it's not the function.

 

But her foolishness is her lack long-game planning. She doesn't think of it in those terms. She doesn't consider the leap of faith it will require for me to believe it. The obvious built in conflict.

No, true to form, she thinks of her needs first.

 

She gets incredibly frustrated with herself every time there's anything affair triggering. She reminds herself how stupid she was, what a terrible wife she's been, some of the more stinging barbs she got posting on LS. She regrets being the person who ruined the longtime friendship of some she loves.

 

She does desperately want kids, has for years, and she's even more pissed at herself for having potentially destroyed those chances. She has very real anxiety issues (which I'm sure NONE OF YOU could glean from her thousand posts), and very few friends (and no really close friends).

 

So when she tries to give him the letter (Douche is terrified about social judgement, there's no way he'd remotely want to be seen in public with her, let alone accepting anything), she's made a totem out of this. She's wanting some kind of way to feel better about herself and move past.

 

You guys, she's -bad- at lying. Baaad. She's pretty literal, good with concepts, bad with actually fleshing them out. Terrible memory. She's not the type of person with smooth, subtle body language.

 

Everyone suspected the affair. I naively clung to bro code standards until I finally let myself see the writing on the wall. Everyone just trusts my judgement of character and social awareness, so they figured I either knew something they didn't or had a handle on it.

 

So, I write without hesitation when I say I'm confident that letter wasn't an inviting one.

 

When I asked her what she was going to do if he replied, she said it wasn't that kind of thing. I asked "but what if he does anyway?" she blanked like the thought had never occurred to her. Long game problem.

 

You can openly get a sense of her thinking from her countless posts.

 

I'm not concerned about the affair restarting, I -am- concerned about the roots of her cost/benefit analysis of this act. The core of her expectation of outcome.

 

Now, the question as it was originally posed:

 

'What are you thinking of doing?'

 

Followed by 'How many more chances will she get?'

 

Related and separate all the same.

 

Right now? I think. I let my thoughts run their courses.

 

The reality is that I love her. She makes bad choices, and she's got some issues.

 

We got married young, and we've been in a kind of roommate-like relationship, through our almost decade together. Like good friends who have sex. We've hardly dated, and part of the reason we got married was she was the first woman I ever really clicked with.

 

We have a very practical, analytical approach to things (surely you jest!), and ultimately, life's been pretty good. We're getting pretty good at this teamwork/living thing. We're great buddies, and we're unsure what a lifetime of relationship really means.

 

I'm a workaholic, and with her validation issues (and lack of close friends)... it provides its own tension.

Music is my first mistress. Perhaps there's a permanent imbalance here for us as people.

 

She's building a support system of friends.. but those types of things take time... to open up, confide, have faith in another's judgments/opinions/intentions.

 

Again regarding babies: I know -many- people who think having children will fill holes of unhappiness within themselves. I think there's certainly an element of that at play. I don't advocate it as a psychological band-aid, but that doesn't make it any less compelling for someone who's looking for healing (her, not me.. just for clarity).

 

We take it a day at a time, and most days, things are pretty damn good.

 

But today carries a frustrated sigh as I stroke my chin.

 

So, yea. What do I do? Right now, I think.

[Sassy Girl]

So 3 times she breached your boundaries and her consequences were what?

[SawtoothMars]

So, yea. What do I do? Right now, I think.

 

I don't really know what to say to you. I married a woman just like CD... right down to the way she types her posts. She was also the only woman I had ever been with... honestly the similarities just go on and on. Even down to the point where she tries to get your approval for an affair she is already having... and initially isn't very apologetic.

 

Thinking was and is my fatal flaw. There is this one thing she said to me once that just haunts me. We had a situation where this jerkoff is hitting on her while we are at a bar. I came over and made nice with everyone slowly extricating her from the situation. Later that night we had a huge fight where she asked me "Why won't you fight for me?" I didn't understand it then. I think too much and always tried to be the nice guy... never jealous... understanding... ect.

 

If I could give you any one piece of advice... stop thinking and start doing.

[Hope Shimmers]

You are making a mistake. Mark my words.

 

Because you don't want to face it. You are making excuses for her. That was your entire last post. I thought you were much smarter than that.

[Compulsive Musician]

Whether I agree with the processes or not does not change them, nor does it dismiss my curiosity in them.

 

They are not excuses. We all agree she's given me more than enough reasons to leave.

[merrmeade]

I was not here to post in your previous threads, but have read yours and CD's history, and, like others, feel shocked and betrayed that someone who's posted extensively in all of our threads, KNOWs - has read repeatedly - what NC is about and that the couple do it together. She KNOWS that she doesn't get to make unilateral decisions for her own reasons or do anything related to the OM without your input. She KNOWS that the NC letter is not about saying good-bye.

 

She writes clearly on LS and relates to all A-related details with a sharp understanding of everyone's issues.

 

And then you go on and on, explaining her need instead of feeling your own? I don't know what's harder to take in - her blatant, selfish disregard for this most basic and essential safeguard on the marriage - NO CONTACT ever again between the APs - or your weird intellectualization of the whole thing. Where is your outrage? Where is your disappointment? Where are your freaking glasses?

 

)I'm pretty sure CD is telling the truth about the letter.

You mean, that she LOST the copies of it? In that case, tell us about her remorse, her regret, her apologies, her commitment, her recognition about something, please, but not explanations and excuses. Share your indignation and shock with us. Explain whether she's recognized that brooding about him was a mistake, writing him a letter was a mistake, and that not discussing it with you and then "losing" the copy was way more than a mistake - outright deceit all over again - and she is NOT too ditzie not to take responsibility for that.

 

Think about it: Saying good-bye for closure without your input or knowledge of what was said. How does that make you feel?

 

)I think, however, this is dumb at best, disrespectful at worst. Misguided, not thought through. Deceitful, but I don't think malicious. Naive, perhaps even desperate. She doesn't want a response, it's not the function.

No. That's you avoiding. She's been around the block with affair psychology and reconciliation dos and don'ts. She knows and chose to do what she wanted. It was her closure and had nothing to do with you. How is that okay? How does AP's discomfort make her actions any better? And so what if it's not malicious? When was that ever the point? It's all those things you said but it's also her needing to say good-bye. WTF for if it's not about him and them? And where are you in that? Doesn't matter what she says it said if you didn't see it.

 

I don't know what you should do. I do know that being so understanding when you haven't even said what she understands about it is just weird.

[SycamoreCircle]

I know what you should do: DTMFA, as Dan Savage likes to say. This woman sounds like a raging narcissist. Things will not end well for you, I promise. End this. End it immediately.

 

Find someone who has enough self-love and self-respect to love and respect you.

[HereNorThere]

If you believe in going the analytical route, I suggest researching about the relationship between the narcissist and co-dependent. This is a text book example of two personality types that are like gasoline to flame.

 

You need to find a therapist ASAP, but until then, read, read and read.

 

CD isn't analytical, she runs on pure emotion, id and impulse. Logic only comes in later as a means of relieving her guilt through excuse making.

 

There is nothing logical about stalking out your affair partner from 1.5 years ago, at work, to give them a letter against your husbands wishes. That's some carnal, primal, reptilian stuff right there. There is NOTHING you'll ever be able to do to stop this from happening again.

Edited October 21, 2014 by HereNorThere

[Oberfeldwebel]

Quote: I'm a workaholic, and with her validation issues (and lack of close friends)... it provides its own tension. Music is my first mistress. Perhaps there's a permanent imbalance here for us as people.

 

You two become your own worst enemies. As a workaholic you are self absorbed, work becomes the attention that you need. It is your way of self validation. As a musician you also get validation when people appreciate your music. Since I use to be that way myself, I am not hating on you, we just have to know that we are like that and make concerted efforts to keep that under control. We can expect folks to standby until we are ready to engage them.

 

For CD her validation came in a different form. While I don't condone her behavior, I can see how it can start. If I were in her shoes, I would careless what this other person thinks, but for some reason the acknowledgement from him means something to her. This is something that she needs to explore with her counselor. Communication is the key here however. She can write all the letters that she wants to get her emotions out, the problem is the contact. She can write the letter and then give it to you, her therapist or burn it while drinking a nice bottle of wine. I recommend a Merlot, but to each his own.

[cocorico]

CM

 

It seems clear from CD's behavior and what you have said that she has a mess of issues to unravel.

 

Sometimes, often, if we are with people like this, we have complementary issues of our own. Even if you don't, living with other people's dysfunctional behavior is enough to give you issues.

 

Loveshack is fine for a sanity check, venting, perspective etc. But, it cant take the place of therapy if that's what's needed.

 

You mentioned that you don't have people you want to talk to in real life. You might benefit from your own therapist to hash this out with.

 

Your posts frequently have a sort of parental tone in recounting and analyzing CD's behavior. That's not a good recipe for a R where one person is the naughty child acting out their childhood(FOO)issues and the other is the rescuing parent.

 

Not to mention that on top of whatever dynamic already existed, this ongoing deceit from CD is emotionally abusive behavior towards you. Stick around for enough of it and you will lose yourself and your ability to sort out whats what.

 

CM,

 

I get that you love CD. I think we all do. And I'm sure she loves you too, as well as she can.

 

Her issues / damage / self absorption might explain her behaviour - and FTR I'm inclined to agree that there was likely no malintent, just a complete unawareness of the impact of her behaviour on others (you and the fOM) that she professes to care for - but I think that is neither here nor there.

 

You cannot love somebody well. My H spent more than three decades trying to do that with his xW. If someone is damaged in the way she is - so damaged that she is unable to recognise the hurtful impact of her behaviour on the man she claims to love, because she really cannot see beyond her own immediate needs - then no amount of support and love is going to change that. Her own hurting and needing and huge internal hole will simply swamp any ability to consider how "doing what she feels she has to" will affect you, or - god forbid - a child. And while she means no harm to you, she is still capable of great harm because she just can't see beyond her own pain / needs, to yours.

 

And so you will get hurt. Again, and again.

 

You may be willing to live with that. After all, you love her, she loves you, and she means you no harm. You may feel you need to help her through this, that it may be healing for you both. That is your choice.

 

But please do not introduce a child into this dynamic. However badly she wants one. A child cannot heal this, and a child will not withstand the damage.

 

I am sorry - for you both - that you are dealing with this.

[Hobbes' wagon]

Thanks for the reply. I truly wish you the best.

 

However, if I were you, I'd end this and file for divorce. I'd get a good therapist to help me address my issues, including not being in touch with my emotions enough (I recognize that in you, because I was the same before my therapy). I'd learn how to be happy on my own and work on my personal growth. I'd learn how to improve my "picker" of women, how to recognize red flags. Then, I'd slowly start opening my heart and mind to meeting someone new.

 

Even if you decide to continue to ponder things some more, I strongly urge you to STOP HAVING SEX WITH HER UNTIL YOU FIGURE THINGS OUT. It would be really bad if she got pregnant now, I hope you see that. Bad for everyone, including the child.

 

Have you considered going to individual counselling now?

 

Best wishes!

[herself]

In the year and a half (geez is that all?) that's passed since the affair, I have grown, developed, adapted as a person.

 

I am fundamentally the same, and substantially different. My outlook and goals, how I see myself in the world around me, and how I conceptualize human relations.. they've all kind of experienced paradigm shifts.

 

I still have my dark days, but they are spread out. Life has gone on in pretty wonderful ways overall. I still have moments where I ponder whether or not we will stay together, but it is now just as rooted in curiosity and adventure as it was in pain. The 'math' for desired life always works (by an ever changing margin) in CD's (Compulsive Dancer) favor.

 

I was on the way back from a gig, and over the course of the long drive home, I found myself in a dark spot. These happen, protocol seems to be: I become somewhat moody (usually only toward CD), I keep to myself and invariably life provides something ELSE to ponder (or I go to bed).

 

I've learned to recognize unhelpful thoughts, to see and emancipate myself from the negative feedback loops my mind so readily weaves.

 

Three nights ago, this dark spot in hardly any different than its predecessors.

 

Until CD informs me she broke NC three weeks ago.

 

Now a reminder for the kids at home keeping score (this saga is all laid out here on LS, for the curious backstory readers):

 

-January 29th, 2013 was D-Day. NC rules established (for presumably obvious reasons)

 

-sometime last fall, CD 'accidentally' runs into Douche. Total accident. You know, she just went to the place he works, during the hours he works there, to drop off some books (it's a library) and somehow, just UNFATHOMABLY, 'oops' they crossed paths. Man, if those libraries could only think of -some way- to acommodate book drops any time of day, this could've been avoided.

 

I feel the agenda is unambiguous here.

 

-she spend THE REST OF THE YEAR searching his name multiple times a day, on google, google plus, fb (him, his friends and family, anything to get a glimpse of him. Funny given he's not a notably attractive guy)... you know, only when shes bored and stuff..presumably my wife is easily bored.

 

-three weeks ago, she intentionally sought him out to give him a letter. She meets him at work, he won't acknowledge her (kudos to him). She pursues him as he tries to exit the scenario, and he tells her she's got 60 seconds to say whatever, then go. He's not comfortable talking to her. She leaves him a letter on his truck, since he won't take it.

 

 

So, I see that as 3 ever increasing, glaring breaches of NC.

 

She swears she 'needed to for closure'. That she 'never got to say goodbye'. That 'her views and positions (presumably not sexual positions for him this time around) have changed,' that she 'needed to let him know'.

 

Bonus frustration, requiring even MORE faith in a self-absorbed liar: She wrote, printed, and deleted the file of this letter at work, so I will never know what it actually said.

 

CD is pretty straightforward. She's (presumably out of guilty conscience) told me about NC breaches 1 and 3... granted weeks after the fact (actually, MONTHS after the 1st one). What she says feels and sounds true.

 

Her ego seemingly refuses to accept she was just a **** doll (even though that was their original agreement). For her, it needs to be more.

 

Her validation issues often place her (by her telling) at the center of thoughts, conversations, and event that are often tangentially related to her at best. To her credit, she's gotten better about this. But it's deep.

 

Ask her about the underlying 'why' of her actions ('why is this important', 'why do you think this will improve things', 'why are you still hung up on X, Y, Z'), and the response is almost always 'I don't know'.

 

CD is seeing a therapist, and in general, she's getting her life together. It's been pretty cool to watch it happen.

 

The affair served as a catalyst for both of us to evaluate everything, and outside of the relationship, everything is a LOT better.

 

Now pair ALL OF THIS with the fact she turned 30, is freaking out about her age, and the pressure of having kids is at a whole new level from her. At times like these, it can feel like its her way of trying to trap me.

 

I don't think it is unreasonable for me to feel rushed and uncomfortable with starting a family, given our current circumstances.

 

I suppose I'm just venting. I don't have people I can really vent to about these things. It would just make people hate her, and while that would seem inviting when I'm pissed, it wouldn't be helpful the REST of the time. I do not want to have to attack and defend for perspective to others. More anger doesn't make for more peace.

 

Go to the library, tell the guy you came in peace and just need to know what the letter said...or less confrontational...call him there. You need to know.

[Owl]

CM,

 

I get that you love CD. I think we all do. And I'm sure she loves you too, as well as she can.

 

Her issues / damage / self absorption might explain her behaviour - and FTR I'm inclined to agree that there was likely no malintent, just a complete unawareness of the impact of her behaviour on others (you and the fOM) that she professes to care for - but I think that is neither here nor there.

 

You cannot love somebody well. My H spent more than three decades trying to do that with his xW. If someone is damaged in the way she is - so damaged that she is unable to recognise the hurtful impact of her behaviour on the man she claims to love, because she really cannot see beyond her own immediate needs - then no amount of support and love is going to change that. Her own hurting and needing and huge internal hole will simply swamp any ability to consider how "doing what she feels she has to" will affect you, or - god forbid - a child. And while she means no harm to you, she is still capable of great harm because she just can't see beyond her own pain / needs, to yours.

 

And so you will get hurt. Again, and again.

 

You may be willing to live with that. After all, you love her, she loves you, and she means you no harm. You may feel you need to help her through this, that it may be healing for you both. That is your choice.

 

But please do not introduce a child into this dynamic. However badly she wants one. A child cannot heal this, and a child will not withstand the damage.

 

I am sorry - for you both - that you are dealing with this.

 

I think I can count on the number of times that Cocorico and I have agreed on one hand.

 

So that should speak volumes that I agree with the above.

[italianjob]

Well, you keep coming back for more, so there's little to vent about. I guess it's alright for you to live like this since you keep doing nothing about her lack of respect...

[katielee]

CM - I'm going to suggest the book "co-dependent no more"

 

good luck.

[stillmind]

I read your old threads. She cheated, you took her back on condition that you had a free pass to cheat, she wants babies, you don't, she breaks NC, you excuse her.

 

I get that you've both tried and you both love each other but you can't seem to stop hurting each other. Maybe your relationship has simply run its course.

[Realist3]

I'm a workaholic, and with her validation issues (and lack of close friends)... it provides its own tension.

Music is my first mistress. Perhaps there's a permanent imbalance here for us as people.

 

This statement really stuck out to me. Music #1, CD#2. Until those are reversed I believe you will continue to have problems.

 

You are pursuing your passion while CD is just along for the ride.

[Owl]

This statement really stuck out to me. Music #1, CD#2. Until those are reversed I believe you will continue to have problems.

 

You are pursuing your passion while CD is just along for the ride.

 

Well...I agree with your point, but I'd say at this point, they've BOTH 'pursued their passions' to the point where their relationship may be irreparable.

[Spectre]

Drop this women immediately! She is NOT a compulsive dancer, she is a compulsive liar and manipulator. Why do you want trashy women in your life? You want someone who is still giving friggin letters to the guy she banged? The audacity is astounding. There should be nothing left for her to say to this utter piece of trash. Frankly, I don't care if she even "accidentally" runs into this douche. Chick best be pretending he doesn't exist.

 

If you stay? Know that you are ripping your balls off and putting them on a mantle for her. Seriously, there is zero love here. She can go be with the piece of crap she cheated with. I hate to say it, but if you stay? Whatever happens next is YOUR fault. You are swimming in a pool of water about to be turned into pure acid, why the hell aren't you getting out of the water? The only thinking you need to be doing now is how to get this person OUT of your life, for good.

 

EDIT: Reading even more about how she went to the douche's work and that is where she "accidentally" ran into him. She should of been gone right then and there. Dude, balls, mantle. Save yourself, FLEE! Flee and go find someone else. At this point a blowup doll is a better companion. I'm honestly shocked you didn't kick her to the curb for going to his work. That shows you really do care, which makes her subsequent behavior even more disturbing. Either leave her or admit you have no self respect and just give her free reign to walk all over you. It is one or the other here, there is no in between anymore.

Edited October 21, 2014 by Spectre

[Clay]

How many chances will you get with her if you go off and have a affair with someone she loves and cares for?

 

Its easy to just turn a blind eye but what the others are telling you is right. There has a to be a line in the sand some where. I get that she has issues but how much damage can you take before you break.

 

I have read many threads talking about people needing closure but to do this with out your involvement is clearly a betrayal. How do you really know she was not trying to restart the affair? If she was not then why the need to track him down and get him alone.

 

I think your only fooling yourself if you think your safe in this marriage.

 

You normally hear people call reconciliation as death with a thousand paper cuts but clearly your never going to make it there if you can't get the knife out of your back.

 

The hardest part for me after staying with a serial cheater for ten years was realizing I could not save her.

 

Clay

[velvette]

I personally believe that CD is desperate to be a mother, and it's not happening for her.

 

It's interesting that CD is following along on your thread and of all the things written, this is the only thing she "liked".

 

Almost like saying her behavior is all your fault because you wont agree to have a child.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if some of what is behind the behavior is to stir up a s**tstorm of drama to get her way.

 

What doesnt' compute is the mentality of someone wanting so badly to be a mother yet still chasing after the OM for his attention. If she was already a mother, would she have dragged her child into that scenario as well?

 

She is not able to parent herself in the absence of good parenting from her childhood. A concept that over a years worth of therapy should have at least familiarized her with. How will she be able to effectively parent a child.

 

While this behavior is hers to own, she should be questioning either what she's doing in therapy or the effectiveness of the therapist.

[Blackknight]

I decided to delve into your guys' story. As someone who recently broke contact when my MM reached out I know what it is like to screw up again after a long time. Only I do agree her actions seem sort of stalkerish. Couldn't she have left the letter on his truck in the first place and if he got it he got but if not? Ciest le vie? Seems like she wanted to see him. I too agree she knew better than this. And I think you know better than this too. I think I read you were each others only and that might be playing a part in why you are not divorcing. It is safer this way. Those are the actions of a coward but I know you aren't a coward. You need to accept that you guys aren't working. Or stop parenting her and accept she isn't going to change and chances are high that she will cheat again. 5,10,15 years from now. Or you will cheat on her because the resentment will allow you to justify it. And yes, for the love of all that is holy. Don't have a child in this dysfunction. A lot of the times those that are insatiable (your wife) and desperately seeking that next thing or one thing are hit very hard when the realities of parenthood become their reality. And i you happen to get a child with health problems or behaviour problems, people like your wife will crack.