letter of termination?

[pink_sugar]

So everyone else is 1099? Lol. Okay that is a whole OTHER area where they could be in violation. A lot of companies will try and skirt their responsibilities by having 1099s. But if they are directly controlling their employee's days and duties and the 1099 employees do not act as full contractors where they have control over their days and duties it is in violation of the DOL.

 

Here is a good article on it:

 

1099 vs Employee: You Need to Know the Difference - 10 til 2

 

All it takes is one employee (faster if they know the laws) and file suit to suddenly rain down reality on a business owner, both small and large.

 

We see this especially in CA.

 

Sorry, I probably should have clarified. The reason they are all on 1099 is because it's a brokerage and everyone else is a real estate agent or broker, hence the reason they are 1099. I was the single employee as I was the assistant to the owners of the brokerage.

[pink_sugar]

Here is a link to all the state laws and the rights to view personnel files.

 

Access to Personnel Files: 50 State Laws - HR Specialist

 

What is required in regards to pay at termination per each state

 

Terminated Employee Pay Laws by State

 

State Labor Laws:

 

http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/state.htm

 

If this is the case a few of my employers are in violation. A small company I resigned from about a year ago did not pay me within 72 hours when I quit...but rather on the usual payday as everyone else. (My husband had to pick up my check as I was working another job right after). And my most recent position discharged me on Thursday...wasn't paid until Tuesday. Because of the pay period, I was expecting the money on Friday...I really really needed the money for labor day weekend too. They did pay me through Friday of last week, despite terminating me on Thursday. But it looks like they should have paid me same day.

Edited September 3, 2014 by pink_sugar

[Banker Chick]

She'll likely lose..Unless they did something very egregious..It will wind up being her word against them..and the burden of proof will fall on her.The courts are flooded with frivolous lawsuits by discgruntled employees that got fired..and lawyers will take the cases...Small private corporations are only bound by basic rules such as discriminatory hiring practices, etc..Its not like a governmental agency or some other entity that receives state/federal funding..

 

What people fail to understand is that courts recognize that its just impractical for a private small business to keep an HR department and fill an ass in a seat to cite employees for every little infraction..There arent enough hours in the day and quiite frankly there isnt a budget for it...So its technically not a choice..

 

Private businesses can go by their own rules- as long as they arent in violation of the basic rules that are well known and documeted.....Thats why they are privately held businesses...Add in stockholders and public funding and all that changes..

 

TFY

Just because it's a privately held business doesn't mean they don't have to keep the appropriate records for the actions they take. She may not get anything in the long run and he might not be fined but the cost to him already in attorney's fees and the stress of dealing with it (she is now protected and he can't say ANYTHING to her or she'll claim further retaliation) has hit him and the business hard. It's also spread like wildfire through the company and been extremely embarrassing to him. A few other employees have quit due to it. The EEOC is requiring him to provide all her employment records and the process he followed when he demoted her so they obviously aren't considering it frivolous at this point. She's also claimed a few other discriminatory actions so it's a cluster at this point. It would have strengthened his claim if he'd kept better records.

[bathtub-row]

One of the hardest thing I've ever had to do is terminate someone, no matter what the reason. It's so hard to bring that person in the office and fire them face-to-face, but I wouldn't dream if doing it any other way. What your former employer did was gutless and very unprofessional. I'm really sorry this happened. I guess the only redeeming thing about it is that they probably like you too much to fire you in person.

 

I don't see why you would need a letter. Employers usually have some kind of paperwork for documentation but I don't know that it's necessary for the former employee. If you plan to file unemployment, then your former employer would have to say you quit but I also think they'd have to prove it. Maybe it would be a good idea to either take a photo snapshot of the text they sent, or send an email to them, clarifying what happened (or do both). Emails are legal documents and even if they say they never revived it, that wouldn't be a good excuse. The only reason they would even deny it is that they don't want to pay costs associated with a former employee filing for unemployment. It's doubtful that they'll make an issue out of it but it wouldn't hurt to cover your behind.

 

Again, I'm really sorry. I hope you're doing ok.

[thefooloftheyear]

Just because it's a privately held business doesn't mean they don't have to keep the appropriate records for the actions they take. She may not get anything in the long run and he might not be fined but the cost to him already in attorney's fees and the stress of dealing with it (she is now protected and he can't say ANYTHING to her or she'll claim further retaliation) has hit him and the business hard. It's also spread like wildfire through the company and been extremely embarrassing to him. A few other employees have quit due to it. The EEOC is requiring him to provide all her employment records and the process he followed when he demoted her so they obviously aren't considering it frivolous at this point. She's also claimed a few other discriminatory actions so it's a cluster at this point. It would have strengthened his claim if he'd kept better records.

 

 

Sigh....

 

Sounds like nothing but vindictiveness....Someone gets demoted and pulls some technicalities out of their hat ...."to show him"......

 

But what the hell do I know?

 

How many small(and large) businesses lose billions every year because they dont make employees accountable for wasting company time on the net, sociallizing, taking longer on their breaks, etc... Most companies, especially small ones never bother to "keep records" for these things...

 

Or just like the time when not only did I let him keep his job, I paid a $50/hr employee his full 40 hour work week paycheck while his kid was battling cancer -for almost 2 years, despite the fact that he only worked maybe 10 hours a week-if at all........never kept any records for that either...

 

We have a 45 min lunch break here...NEVER has an employee not taken the full 45 and went back to work without getting paid..Yet I could probably buy a single family home in cash if someone handed me a lump sum check that accounted for all of the lost time my guys took "extending" their lunch break over the decades of being in business....Never accounted for that either..

 

These are some of the things that make employers not even want to bother taking on new people or expanding....Its just not worth the aggravation..

 

No one is saying dont pay someone if they earned it..And employers should abide by standard forms of respect and dignity when dealing with employees, and if there is a legitimate reason that an employee got shafted, then they certainly have a right to seek justification or some form of compensation...Its just that all too often its just a case of they(employer) dont think the employee is as wonderful as they(employee) think they are...So they get legal/technical.....its dumb...

 

Much apologies to the OP for veering off topic a bit....If you think you deserve a letter, than by all means get it...Ive never been asked, but I certainly would comply if someone did...I hope you land a new gig before too long..

 

TFY

Edited September 4, 2014 by thefooloftheyear

[Got it]

She'll likely lose..Unless they did something very egregious..It will wind up being her word against them..and the burden of proof will fall on her.The courts are flooded with frivolous lawsuits by discgruntled employees that got fired..and lawyers will take the cases...Small private corporations are only bound by basic rules such as discriminatory hiring practices, etc..Its not like a governmental agency or some other entity that receives state/federal funding..

 

What people fail to understand is that courts recognize that its just impractical for a private small business to keep an HR department and fill an ass in a seat to cite employees for every little infraction..There arent enough hours in the day and quiite frankly there isnt a budget for it...So its technically not a choice..

 

Private businesses can go by their own rules- as long as they arent in violation of the basic rules that are well known and documeted.....Thats why they are privately held businesses...Add in stockholders and public funding and all that changes..

 

TFY

 

Good lord you are wrong. The burden of proof is on the employer in this case not the employee. They are expected to keep records and not doing so is on them. Them demotion needs to have been documented.

 

I work with EEOCs in 20 different states, we have operations in 45 states, this doesn't include our global operations.

 

You don't know what you are talking about. I am speaking as someone that has been in the employment law and HR field for a decade. I do this every day. In many states. Working with a legal team and outside counsel that are focused solely on employment law.

 

What you are posting is laughable.

[thefooloftheyear]

Good lord you are wrong. The burden of proof is on the employer in this case not the employee. They are expected to keep records and not doing so is on them. Them demotion needs to have been documented.

 

I work with EEOCs in 20 different states, we have operations in 45 states, this doesn't include our global operations.

 

You don't know what you are talking about. I am speaking as someone that has been in the employment law and HR field for a decade. I do this every day. In many states. Working with a legal team and outside counsel that are focused solely on employment law.

 

What you are posting is laughable.

 

 

 

 

Yep...You're right...I am a moron and a dope...Despite running 5 seperate businesses for about for about as long as you have been on this planet and not a single lawsuit, inquiry or ever writing a termination letter....

 

 

I wonder how I manage to put my shoes on in the morning..

 

TFY

[veggirl]

I don't see what's impractical about requiring an employer to note infractions and whatnot. I was never pulled aside or given a warning or anything, but if I had been, yes I'd expect that to be noted. It doesn't require an HR department to do that.

 

I am worried they will fight my unemployment claim, as I've seen them do in the past with people they fired. I feel if I have in writing what they allege I did, it will be beneficial to me. I was fired out of the blue, on the phone, because the boss said I deleted emails rather than responding to them. That's a bold-faced lie. He said I was too sarcastic (so there were 2 reasons). Fine, maybe I was? This was never addressed. They WILL fight my unemployment and if they want to claim these things, don't they need records? it's frustrating when someone feels that they employed you so they OWN you. I went above & beyond for them, I do not deserve to be kicked around. I showed them respect. My personal sh*t is still at that office because I wasn't allowed to collect it until the owners daughter showed up, and she didn't go in that day. I went to get it from our parking attendant and he couldn't find it.

 

I expect to be paid for Monday, Labor Day, since I was terminated the day after. I can guarantee this will not be included on my final check.

 

I emailed them requesting a letter including my termination date, reason and receipt of my office keys.

 

I don't think that's out of line.

 

Why shouldn't I get something like that? (of course my email has so far been ignored).

 

Thanks for the links you included in an earlier post, Got it. I'm sure many people found them beneficial.

Edited September 4, 2014 by veggirl

[veggirl]

TFY, maybe you have avoided lawsuits, termination letters, etc because you've handled things properly and respectfully. This thread isn't meant to be an "us" vs "them" type of thing. If you employ people and treat them fairly, that's awesome and I'm glad for them and you! Not all employers are like you. And not all employees are looking to milk the system or to do the least they can to get by. I am not that person, at all.

[bathtub-row]

These are very bad people to be doing business with. In that sense, you're better off without them. Yes, it sounds like they will try to fight your unemployment benefits but you to can take that pretty far with the unemployment office.

 

I once had someone fight us over me firing her and I won after there was a mediation through the unemployment office. She had been fired for insubordination and I had everything very well documented, plus I had witnesses. I was told by other people that it's very hard for employers to win cases like that, so if you take it to the highest level that you can with the agency, you stand a very good chance of winning.

 

Document everything. They never gave you warning and you never signed anything saying you were warned. That will work against them in a big way.

[pink_sugar]

I am so sorry you have to go through this, OP. I had an employer try to fight my unemployment benefits when I quit after 2 weeks of no work. Little did I know they terminated me before the end of my notice. This was found out at the EDD hearing as well as the fact that I was not compensated for one last workday where I was told not to come in. Their basis was that I quit and unemployment found out about them terminating me and I was awarded benefits for that reason. Check the laws for your state in regards to termination. In my state, payment is required at time of termination. My recent bosses did not do that, but considering we left on fairly good terms, I'm not reporting it as I think they were unaware since they were new to having employees. They also paid me for an additional day of work and offered to provide a nice reference. You can be rest assured that the EDD will find out about all the details of your termination and make a decision accordingly. Also keep in mind that if your employer does fight it, that the appeals process can tale a couple months if it goes to court.

Edited September 4, 2014 by pink_sugar

[Got it]

I don't see what's impractical about requiring an employer to note infractions and whatnot. I was never pulled aside or given a warning or anything, but if I had been, yes I'd expect that to be noted. It doesn't require an HR department to do that.

 

I am worried they will fight my unemployment claim, as I've seen them do in the past with people they fired. I feel if I have in writing what they allege I did, it will be beneficial to me. I was fired out of the blue, on the phone, because the boss said I deleted emails rather than responding to them. That's a bold-faced lie. He said I was too sarcastic (so there were 2 reasons). Fine, maybe I was? This was never addressed. They WILL fight my unemployment and if they want to claim these things, don't they need records? it's frustrating when someone feels that they employed you so they OWN you. I went above & beyond for them, I do not deserve to be kicked around. I showed them respect. My personal sh*t is still at that office because I wasn't allowed to collect it until the owners daughter showed up, and she didn't go in that day. I went to get it from our parking attendant and he couldn't find it.

 

I expect to be paid for Monday, Labor Day, since I was terminated the day after. I can guarantee this will not be included on my final check.

 

I emailed them requesting a letter including my termination date, reason and receipt of my office keys.

 

I don't think that's out of line.

 

Why shouldn't I get something like that? (of course my email has so far been ignored).

 

Thanks for the links you included in an earlier post, Got it. I'm sure many people found them beneficial.

 

They may fight it. We fight all of our just because of policy. But it doesn't mean we win them. Even for similar reasons and practices that were "okayed" in other states or just other times. A lot comes down to the commissioner who is handling the case. But usually, the employer is expected to show the reason why the person was terminated for violation of policy, progressive discipline, and/or prior communication or so egregious that it warrants a one strike your out rule.

 

For example, we had a situation where the employee, a manager, was the manager on shift and posted inappropriate pictures on social media with subordinates, lewd pictures, etc. Her social media was shared with coworkers and someone brought it to management's attention. In our investigation, we had video to corroborate the pictures on social media, the pictures she posted, coworker's statements and her own admission. Her excuse, the employees in the pictures, while in uniform and in restricted area, were not on duty so it didn't violate company policy (we have a social media policy as well as harassment, inappropriate behavior, code of conduct, etc. policies). We terminated her with cause. This was in an at will state.

 

She files for unemployment. Sounds pretty cut and dry right? We should win. Two hour unemployment hearing in a pretty employer friendly state, employer loses. The commissioner cited that we did not give her full warning that she was in violation and so should not have termed at that time but have taken another disciplinary action.

 

Another example. Mid level manager, not performing at standard. Manager works with this manager for 6 months, verbal warnings and email recaps, no improvement. So the review is poor and warrants a PIP (Performance Improvement Plan or Action Plan). Very detailed and specific on exact issues, why they are not at standard and the exact steps needed to get off of PIP. HR, supervisor, subordinate manager, sit down and go over it, all parties sign, PIP is for 3 months. Improvement in the first week or so and then back slid and stays there. At the end of 3 months did not show significant improvement and so made the decision to terminate. Went to unemployment hearing, argued our side, lost unemployment. Because there was no violation of company, state or federal laws, and purely low performance, it did not excuse the company from unemployment.

 

Okay. We win some we lose some. I have others that are similar to this that the employer doesn't win. We have had some where we won easily. It just depends. A lot of the unemployment hearings comes down to how well you sell your argument but the burden is just as much, or more so, on the employer to bear witness as the employee. We have a very detailed progressive disciplinary procedure for management to follow, detailed communication plans, and termination policy.

 

I would say, based on my experience, if what you are saying is the only evidence I would be surprised if the UEC would rule in the company's favor but there could be other details involved.

 

I know it is easy to say, but don't sweat the unemployment hearing. Please remember, it is just business for everyone else involved except you ( I know easy for me to say.) Put together any evidence you may have to contrary of their suspected claims, write down bullet points of facts that you think are likely to come up, stay calm, and give your testimony in a calm collect manner.

 

And as another poster said, either party can go to appeal which will prolong the process. But don't put the cart before the horse. Fill out the paperwork/claim for unemployment and go from there. They may not even show up for the hearing.

 

In regards to payment, was Labor Day a company paid holiday? If so that should be included if you were terminated the day after. That would be a department of labor claim for unpaid wages if they don't pay that out. Depending on state laws they may or may not be required to give you the termination information that you are requesting. You may not become privy to it until the unemployment hearing, and if they don't challenge that, you may never know why.

 

Good luck!

[pink_sugar]

They may fight it. We fight all of our just because of policy. But it doesn't mean we win them. Even for similar reasons and practices that were "okayed" in other states or just other times. A lot comes down to the commissioner who is handling the case. But usually, the employer is expected to show the reason why the person was terminated for violation of policy, progressive discipline, and/or prior communication or so egregious that it warrants a one strike your out rule.

 

For example, we had a situation where the employee, a manager, was the manager on shift and posted inappropriate pictures on social media with subordinates, lewd pictures, etc. Her social media was shared with coworkers and someone brought it to management's attention. In our investigation, we had video to corroborate the pictures on social media, the pictures she posted, coworker's statements and her own admission. Her excuse, the employees in the pictures, while in uniform and in restricted area, were not on duty so it didn't violate company policy (we have a social media policy as well as harassment, inappropriate behavior, code of conduct, etc. policies). We terminated her with cause. This was in an at will state.

 

She files for unemployment. Sounds pretty cut and dry right? We should win. Two hour unemployment hearing in a pretty employer friendly state, employer loses. The commissioner cited that we did not give her full warning that she was in violation and so should not have termed at that time but have taken another disciplinary action.

 

Another example. Mid level manager, not performing at standard. Manager works with this manager for 6 months, verbal warnings and email recaps, no improvement. So the review is poor and warrants a PIP (Performance Improvement Plan or Action Plan). Very detailed and specific on exact issues, why they are not at standard and the exact steps needed to get off of PIP. HR, supervisor, subordinate manager, sit down and go over it, all parties sign, PIP is for 3 months. Improvement in the first week or so and then back slid and stays there. At the end of 3 months did not show significant improvement and so made the decision to terminate. Went to unemployment hearing, argued our side, lost unemployment. Because there was no violation of company, state or federal laws, and purely low performance, it did not excuse the company from unemployment.

 

Okay. We win some we lose some. I have others that are similar to this that the employer doesn't win. We have had some where we won easily. It just depends. A lot of the unemployment hearings comes down to how well you sell your argument but the burden is just as much, or more so, on the employer to bear witness as the employee. We have a very detailed progressive disciplinary procedure for management to follow, detailed communication plans, and termination policy.

 

I would say, based on my experience, if what you are saying is the only evidence I would be surprised if the UEC would rule in the company's favor but there could be other details involved.

 

I know it is easy to say, but don't sweat the unemployment hearing. Please remember, it is just business for everyone else involved except you ( I know easy for me to say.) Put together any evidence you may have to contrary of their suspected claims, write down bullet points of facts that you think are likely to come up, stay calm, and give your testimony in a calm collect manner.

 

And as another poster said, either party can go to appeal which will prolong the process. But don't put the cart before the horse. Fill out the paperwork/claim for unemployment and go from there. They may not even show up for the hearing.

 

In regards to payment, was Labor Day a company paid holiday? If so that should be included if you were terminated the day after. That would be a department of labor claim for unpaid wages if they don't pay that out. Depending on state laws they may or may not be required to give you the termination information that you are requesting. You may not become privy to it until the unemployment hearing, and if they don't challenge that, you may never know why.

 

Good luck!

 

I had a similar case with performance at the place I mentioned earlier which challenged my benefits. I had actually made significant improvement during the time in which they gave me notice of my low performance. I went through HR to request more training as I did not feel I was properly trained. I improved in time for my next review, got my raise and moved forward. A few months later, my hours suddenly dropped and after 2 weeks of no work, went to file unemployment. I knew the asst. manager did not like me and was trying to get me to quit. When I filed for unemployment, the employer did try and pull the performance card...even though there was documentation that I improved and continued forward. (Otherwise I would have been fired). They did indeed say that inadequate performance alone didn't relieve the employer of paying unemployment.

[Trimmer]

I don't see why you would need a letter.

But then you go on to describe exactly why it might be useful, in this case, when the OP didn't get anything but a text and a phone conversation:

 

If you plan to file unemployment, then your former employer would have to say you quit but I also think they'd have to prove it. Maybe it would be a good idea to either take a photo snapshot of the text they sent, or send an email to them, clarifying what happened (or do both). Emails are legal documents and even if they say they never revived it, that wouldn't be a good excuse. The only reason they would even deny it is that they don't want to pay costs associated with a former employee filing for unemployment. It's doubtful that they'll make an issue out of it but it wouldn't hurt to cover your behind.

So I think that whole paragraph is a great explanation of exactly why it's reasonable for the OP to ask for something in writing, documenting the termination.

[fiatflux]

TFY, maybe you have avoided lawsuits, termination letters, etc because you've handled things properly and respectfully. This thread isn't meant to be an "us" vs "them" type of thing. If you employ people and treat them fairly, that's awesome and I'm glad for them and you! Not all employers are like you. And not all employees are looking to milk the system or to do the least they can to get by. I am not that person, at all.

 

Thank you for providing the counterbalancing perspective to the assumption that employees file "frivolous" lawsuits. In my experience, the system is stacked against employees, even with government employers that are supposedly heavily regulated. I have a friend whose case hasn't even completed the internal grievance hearing stage yet, and she's already spent $20,000 on her lawyer. All because her boss decided he wanted to get rid of her for his own personal reasons and lied in order to do so. It's now been almost a year since he terminated her (being in academia, she receives a terminal year before having to leave). Most people would not have had the means or will to continue fighting this employer, despite the blatant policy violations. The most frequent advice given is, "do you really want to work here? Just move on and find another job." Really. Ok, so just let this jerk continue to operate illegally and in violation of policies without any consequences? Why is the employee seen as being unnecessarily persistent in fighting such unfair treatment?

Edited September 8, 2014 by fiatflux