Length and details of the affair

[IfWishesWereHorses]

I believe the worst scenario would be a double betrayal, an affair with a close friend or family member of the BS. That's in retrospect, contemplating the question asked by the OP. at no point did I ever think, this could have been worse!

[Red123]

Thanks for all of your replies. Interesting to see how the views vary but everyone seems to agree all As hurt.

[suckerpunch55]

How can you measure pain? my wife's affair lasted over 2 years but even if it had lasted 1 hour it would have been just as painful.

[jnel921]

Affair's suck period. It's happened to me twice in two respective marriages. Length of time was a factor in my second M. My first H was probably cheating all along during our 5 years of M and was never remorseful. My second H did it once where the A happened over a few weeks and he says they were physical twice and was remorseful.

 

I R with my second H although my heart wanted me to run away in the beginning. I never would have believed that he could heal my heart. But almost 22 months later he has.

 

It depends on you and your WS. Everyone has their own level of pain that they can deal and work with.

 

Good luck to you.

[compulsivedancer]

Yes because now you do not know any of them memories were real. You had been lied to most of your marriage. That's much worse

Depends what you mean by LTA. An affair that lasted a year or two, you might make it. Several years, doubtful.

[HermioneG]

Depends what you mean by LTA. An affair that lasted a year or two, you might make it. Several years, doubtful.

 

I have been married 20+ years. My spouse's affair was 3 years.

 

We are very nicely recovered.

 

A lot of the who makes it afterwards depends on the work the wayward puts in to heal what was wrong with them in the first place. Infidelity is a personal problem, not a marital one, and although it wreaks havoc on the marriage after, the real key to recovery is whether or not the wayward can be a safe partner in the future. And that can happen with affairs of many different lengths, and that can also not happen with affairs of many different lengths.

 

Pittman, Glass, Gottman and Fisher all support that.

 

I did not mean to be argumentative, CD, I just wanted to offer a perspective as someone much further out than you are at this stage ( 5+ years).

[compulsivedancer]

I have been married 20+ years. My spouse's affair was 3 years.

 

We are very nicely recovered.

 

A lot of the who makes it afterwards depends on the work the wayward puts in to heal what was wrong with them in the first place. Infidelity is a personal problem, not a marital one, and although it wreaks havoc on the marriage after, the real key to recovery is whether or not the wayward can be a safe partner in the future. And that can happen with affairs of many different lengths, and that can also not happen with affairs of many different lengths.

 

Pittman, Glass, Gottman and Fisher all support that.

 

I did not mean to be argumentative, CD, I just wanted to offer a perspective as someone much further out than you are at this stage ( 5+ years).

Did you find out about your spouse's affair a decade later? Because that was the context of the post.

 

I was responding to a poster who didn't think someone in that scenario could reconcile period. It bugs me when people make those blanket statements ( eg. you can't reconcile if....) It all depends the couple. Which is what I was stating.

 

I think it's totally doable, but there are different degrees of "LTA."

 

One of the weirdnesses here on LS is when people discuss LTAs and you have someone commiserating that they understand a BS's pain because their SO was in a LTA that lasted...a year. And they are talking to someone whose spouse was in a 10-year affair. It just seems glib and disrespectful. Not even similar things.

 

Btw, 3 to me would not generally be "several." Please read my post in context, not as a standalone.

Edited August 5, 2014 by compulsivedancer

[HermioneG]

Did you find out about your spouse's affair a decade later? Because that was the context of the post.

 

I was responding to a poster who didn't think someone in that scenario could reconcile period. It bugs me when people make those blanket statements ( eg. you can't reconcile if....) It all depends the couple. Which is what I was stating.

 

I think it's totally doable, but there are different degrees of "LTA."

 

One of the weirdnesses here on LS is when people discuss LTAs and you have someone commiserating that they understand a BS's pain because their SO was in a LTA that lasted...a year. And they are talking to someone whose spouse was in a 10-year affair. It just seems glib and disrespectful. Not even similar things.

 

Btw, 3 to me would not generally be "several." Please read my post in context, not as a standalone.

 

I did read it all.

 

Thanks for your reply.

[Buckeye2]

A ONS could be a genuine moment of weakness in difficult circumstances - unplanned, unintended, and spontaneous.

 

Anything more than a ONS requires intention and planning and desire for a repeat.

 

A series of ONS with different people also "requires intention and planning and desire for a repeat."

[whichwayisup]

Yes because now you do not know any of them memories were real. You had been lied to most of your marriage. That's much worse

 

So just up and divorce without trying to fix things? Not give the WS a chance to make things right? Especially when there's a long history and they've been together for 20+ years? No way, people deserve 2nd chances if they are worthy of it and are genuine, ready to work hard with the BS.

[ForeverTainted]

I think details do matter to many. I think it helped that my affair was very short and no ILYs. My husband told me he was thankful for that. He was glad that we never did anything in our house and that I confessed everything. The fact it was a double betrayal bothered him in that he felt far more betrayed by him than if he had been a stranger.

 

I know a woman who discovered her husband had been cheating on her with another woman since before they were married until she found out near their fourth anniversary. I think she said he cheated on her 7 of eight years together with this woman as well as at least four OnS.

 

She saw nothing to salvage there.

 

It doesn't mean my husband was hurt less by my actions but it does me there were more rational pros to reconciling.

[HereNorThere]

I think what I've taken away from this thread is that when push came to shove, most BS had a lot more flexible boundaries than they originally thought. Their boundary was "I would never marry a cheater" but when that happened it was "I would never marry a cheater that did this, or this, or at this place, or this long, this specific person,etc."

 

For me personally, these personal boundaries need to be established long before the relationship and without the added pressure of losing a relationship. If you say you will not be married to a cheater, it's time to put your money where your mouth is when it happens. I never have to wonder what I would do because I've already decided long before it occurs. My spouse also has the added benefit of knowing exactly what would occur if something happened.

[HereNorThere]

Got to pull you up on this one. People who have affairs don't have some serious mental health issues. Having an affair in a close circle of friends is dumb, but doesn't make you mentally ill. Whilst a WS may use depression as an excuse it's generally not the case.

 

People have affairs for lots of reasons and A LOT of people do have affairs, but it's not because they are mentally ill.

 

A lot of people who have affairs, regret it and rebuild their marriages. A lot divorce, remarry and are 100% faithful. Whether a BS is prepared to forgive is their choice.

 

Comparing people who have affairs to paedophiles is inaccurate. There is no correlation.

 

The very act of having sexual relations outside the bounds of marriage is not an indicator of mental illness, but the lying and deception certainly is. At the very least, psychologically, it's anti-social behavior which is part of the criteria in a host of axis 1 and 2 disorders. Lack of empathy, narcissism, grandiose thinking, impulse control, interpersonal exploitation of others, and the list goes on and on.

 

Maybe I just would like to hope that mentally healthy people could not be cruel to someone they love? I can't imagine someone in their right mind could intentionally break up a family without any other reason than being attracted to another person.

Edited August 7, 2014 by HereNorThere

[compulsivedancer]

The very act of having sexual relations outside the bounds of marriage is not an indicator of mental illness, but the lying and deception certainly is. At the very least, psychologically, it's anti-social behavior which is part of the criteria in a host of axis 1 and 2 disorders. Lack of empathy, narcissism, grandiose thinking, impulse control, interpersonal exploitation of others, and the list goes on and on.

 

Maybe I just would like to hope that mentally healthy people could not be cruel to someone they love? I can't imagine someone in their right mind could intentionally break up a family without any other reason than being attracted to another person.

In some ways it would be nice to be able to blame my behavior on a mental health issue. Then I could get some treatment and pretend it wasn't my fault. Yes, I have issues. But I doubt I could get diagnosed for anything beyond maybe adult ADHD.

 

The reality is, I put myself in compromising situations and I was enjoying it too much to stop and think about H. I wanted what I wanted, so I came up with justifications to make me feel like I deserved it. OM and I bounced our justifications off of each other until we couldn't see anything else, and we ramped the physical stuff up slowly enough that we could pretend it was nothing until we were deep enough in that we stopped giving a care.

 

Yes, I have issues, and they include lack of empathy and a feeling of self-justification, but it wasn't as simple as having a disorder.

 

Also, the first bald-faced lie I told was probably 5 months into the 6th month affair. So I convinced myself that my lies by omission weren't really lies. I didn't really consider the physical stuff cheating because we had discussed an open marriage. I didn't start feeling guilty until I started developing feelings for him; for me, the emotional cheating was the real cheating.

Edited August 7, 2014 by compulsivedancer

[drifter777]

In some ways it would be nice to be able to blame my behavior on a mental health issue. Then I could get some treatment and pretend it wasn't my fault. Yes, I have issues. But I doubt I could get diagnosed for anything beyond maybe adult ADHD.

 

The reality is, I put myself in compromising situations and I was enjoying it too much to stop and think about H. I wanted what I wanted, so I came up with justifications to make me feel like I deserved it. OM and I bounced our justifications off of each other until we couldn't see anything else, and we ramped the physical stuff up slowly enough that we could pretend it was nothing until we were deep enough in that we stopped giving a care.

 

Yes, I have issues, and they include lack of empathy and a feeling of self-justification, but it wasn't as simple as having a disorder.

 

Also, the first bald-faced lie I told was probably 5 months into the 6th month affair. So I convinced myself that my lies by omission weren't really lies. I didn't really consider the physical stuff cheating because we had discussed an open marriage. I didn't start feeling guilty until I started developing feelings for him; for me, the emotional cheating was the real cheating.

 

Have you had a psychological evaluation in the past 5 years?

[HereNorThere]

ADHD is an impulse control disorder, btw. Mental illness does not excuse us for actions, but it does allow us to say a person with a certain personality type is predisposed to certain behaviors. Honestly, your post actually proved the point I was making. I'm a scientist and I look at things in a scientific way. An admitted lack of empathy should not be something that is taken lightly and I do believe that in most cases, there is appropriate therapy (unless you get into anti-social personality disorder and other more serious conduct disorders in which therapists believe are mostly untreatable). Even a simple emotional disorder like OCD can predispose someone to cheating. Unfortunately, they don't teach you to keep an eye out for this criteria when you are younger and looking for a partner.

[compulsivedancer]

Have you had a psychological evaluation in the past 5 years?

 

I began IC last week. H is unsure about counseling. We made a lot of progress outside of counseling, but I feel like I have stalled more recently, so I found a counselor.

 

I feel like we're getting a bit off-subject here. But I do think I'm within a pretty normal range. I think the unfortunate truth is that infidelity is fairly common and people who are otherwise "normal" are just as often perpetrators as those with mental illnesses.

 

In looking at potential partners, I'd look more closely at family history than whether someone has ADHD or OCD. FOO issues seem like a much more likely indicator. I am easily the most functional of my very socially awkward family, but that doesn't exempt me from 18 years growing up with them.

[merrmeade]

• 
  

The worst would be a marriage of 20 or 30 years where both parties are happy and planning to grow old together and enjoy the grandkids. Then one finds out that there was a long term affair that ended over a decade ago. The WS has been faithful for the last decade. The BS has to reevaluate their life. Looking at old family photos they have to wonder what was going on when they were taken. Do you D or not?

This is a fascinating thought. The WS would definitely think they'd gotten away with it. May even have forgiven himself had counselling and moved on.One also needs to bear in mind that we all change over time. The WS who had the affair, may and will be a completely different person to the one they were 30 years ago. More mature, less impulsive etc.Is there a statute of limitations on an affair?

Yes because now you do not know any of them memories were real.You had been lied to most of your marriage. That's much worse

YES! This is the kicker. This is exactly the point of the knife that twists and twists and twists. I have had to reconstruct my life of memories. And any decision I make about a future together waits on that. I have to have it and he has to give it to me.

- merrmeade

The very act of having sexual relations outside the bounds of marriage is not an indicator of mental illness, but the lying and deception certainly is. At the very least, psychologically, it's anti-social behavior which is part of the criteria in a host of axis 1 and 2 disorders. Lack of empathy, narcissism, grandiose thinking, impulse control, interpersonal exploitation of others, and the list goes on and on. Maybe I just would like to hope that mentally healthy people could not be cruel to someone they love? I can't imagine someone in their right mind could intentionally break up a family without any other reason than being attracted to another person.

All of the above describes where we are: older couple, 40 years of marriage, just discovered multiple infidelities after outing most recent affair. Both wanting to reconcile - me (BS) because he vehemently eschews the person he was and wants to change. List of indiscretions are all of the things people have been listing, all together:

• 2-mo. affair in grad school, age 24
  
• ONS (almost but no intercourse), age 26
  
• LTA (claims only oral sex and 1-time intercourse - don't really believe it), age 28-29, with a woman who then met and married his brother (now, yes, THAT IS ROYALLY F--KED UP and I have not seen her since I found all this out 6 months ago)
  
• LTA with a friend (emotional only and I believe it b/c I know her - very religious), age 33-35
  
• LTA with my brother's wife while I was abroad (years - I have some culpability in the absence b/c he - husband - had no money and was in poor health but didn't tell me), age 60-something - yes, this is also royally effed up
  

So how this relates to the topic of which is worse - : We have children in their 30s - one grandchild. They are unquestionably committed to monogamy and think that was the role model they got. They know about the last affair with the SIL but that's it. I WANT THEM TO CONTINUE HAVING THAT ROLE MODEL. If I go out from this life with heartbreak and disillusion - as I now feel - about everything I've done and lived, so be it. I see no value in ruining them at this point. Their good values are part of society and part of the future. It is my contribution to mankind and I don't want to change it.

 

So to answer the question of what's harder,

First: The very 1st discovery - which was the most recent affair - was hardest. Yes, I was an idiot and enabling with 40 years of naiveté but that's why it was hard. I had no clue. Also she was my sister-in-law whom I had trusted and loved as well.

Second: Realizing that all my life was a lie and correcting my memories - that is on-going and that is hard. Looking back at the times that he was absent and I needed him and now knowing what he was doing - THAT's also big and will take work together with a therapist, I guess. Understanding the why of everything after getting the facts puts the final package together. The fact that he has multiple issues, admits his sexual addiction (has now started looking at porn sites - doesn't know I know - which I'm waiting for therapy to talk about - He's F--ked up and admits it.) - all that can be dealt and seems inconsequential to #1 and 2.

 

After that, we can start over. We may be dead, but that's the plan.

 

So there's another perspective.

Edited August 7, 2014 by merrmeade

[compulsivedancer]

Wow, it's hard to imagine having to deal with and process all of that at once. What made you decide to stay and try to work things out?

[drifter777]

There's definitely a difference between a drunken one night stand and having an intense affair with a friend or family member. Mistakes happen once, but long-term deception within your social circle is an indicator that them WS has serious mental health issues.

 

People do make impulsive one time mistakes, but long term deception for me is a deal-breaker.

 

If you had a friend who molested a child, went to rehabilitation, had not reoffended, expressed remorse, would you let them baby sit for you? A cheater isn't really much different to me. Once I know you are capable, I don't care how much rehabilitation you've had.

For me there is not much difference between LTA or ONS as most people understand those terms to mean. The emotional component of WW's 3 week live-in affair never meant a thing to me. She was infatuated with him - so what? Real life intruded on their little fantasy and it fell apart like a house of cards.

 

For some sex is just sex and I guess those people can see a ONS as a mistake or lapse in judgement. Not me. I see infatuation as silly and childish. its the physical betrayal that cannot be un-done. It was, is, and always will be about the sex.

[revelations]

I have to agree with drifter777 in that I see a ONS vs a long term affair to be about as equally damaging to me. However for me a ONS would not be nearly as bad in one sense as a long term affair if the ONS is confessed to immediately or very soon after. The reason for this is that the LTA would have to involved a long term lie also which in a lot of ways is worse to me than the actual sex itself. So for me walking away from an xWW because she cheated a decade ago would not be so much because she had sex with someone else. It would be because she was able to maintain the lie for a decade.

 

For me the sex part gets kind of weird. I read about couples that go through hysterical bonding and such. I am just the opposite, I don't want to touch her at all nor be touched by her. For me the woman I am with could have been with hundreds of guys before me and that won't phase me one bit. However if she is with just one other guy after we are committed, then she is damaged goods to me. For some reason I become very sick at the thought of being with the cheater and cannot get it up with a crane for them. To me she is about as much of a turn on as eating a urinal cake would be. Now this is something that has no time limit on it. I can find out a decade later that she cheated and been banging her the whole time. The minute I find out, she will no longer be able to get a rise out of me. For me she goes from being a turn on to the major thing that turns me off quicker than anything else.

 

Yes I know that it is a mental thing, some may even see it as childish. For a long time I thought it was something I should correct, that is until I seen it in a different light. That different perspective is that by me not being able to get it up for a known cheating wife it is actually protecting me. I don't think it is so much protection against STD's as it is protecting my mental and spiritual well being. After all she has gone from a person that I trust to a person that is proven to use that trust against me in order to hurt me. So for me viewing that cheating xWW as a used sock that has been passed around by a lot of men is a good thing for me. I don't worry about how long it will take to have sex with her again because I know the answer, which is never.

 

So yes to me in one way the lie of keeping a ONS or LTA secrete for years would be very difficult to overcome. However in another sense the sex would be as equally as difficult. The thing that is most disturbing to me is the way I have seen WW try and justify hiding their ONS for such a long length of time. I have actually heard women say "well it is best he does not know about it because he would make the wrong choice" or "what he does not know won't hurt him" and of course "it was a long time ago and didn't mean a thing to me, he would just overreact to it". I can go on with countless more excuses given to hide a ONS or LTA from a BH. This is why I stay out of relationships, because I have noticed that certain things about how women tend to treat me. Usually after some time it becomes clear that I am not given the respect that they would give a dog and they damn sure don't think of me as human. That usually makes for a bad relationship because our perspectives about a certain thing is so different. I respect myself and view myself as human, while most women I have been with do not.

[gettingstronger]

Originally Posted by moonbeams

Yes because now you do not know any of them memories were real.You had been lied to most of your marriage. That's much worse

 

 

I don't understand this post at all-but I Just Adore it anyway-

 

I am unsure if the length or details matter much because it comes down to what you are able to tolerate as a person-for some a ONS is a deal breaker-for others, its not a big deal-

 

The one thing I do know is what I thought were deal breakers are not when I was faced with them-the details and length of my husbands A make me sick to my stomach-the details all point back to being a liar and betraying me-they are concrete examples of behaviors I abhor-so I guess its not so much the details, but they underlying behaviors behind them-

[merrmeade]

Wow, it's hard to imagine having to deal with and process all of that at once. What made you decide to stay and try to work things out?

 

You know, the answer to that changes every day. For now, read the post I just put on the Forgiveness thread that I started and you've posted on - #102. It's as good an answer as any at the moment.

 

But in the beginning it was a combination of things. For one, H had been living in my family's vacation home and sort of supported by my SIL, the OW. Sick and crazy, yeah, but I accept responsibility for creating that part (though certainly not for what they did with it). I had to get him out of there and he had no money and a 3-month job he'd just accepted. I agreed to stay and help him move to his sister's. After that, I went abroad for 9 months and brooded every day all day on what happened. He came to visit and more salacious s h i t emerged from his disgusting past.

 

Another enormous issue for me was what you or somebody else mentioned - the obsessive but real need to get my memories straight. And since he 'suffers' from sexual addiction, toxic shame and narcissism (my own diagnosis), getting him to open up or even talk is not easy. I figured if I left him, I'd never find out everything. Along with that, the only revenge, if you will, that I ever wanted was for him to suffer through the divulgence, seeing its effect on me and my recovery from it. I KNOW I will recover and I will NOT ignore any aspect of the truth and will not let him ignore it either. He WILL suffer through this with me. He WILL go to counseling with me and will see me wretch and moan as I work to regain my balance and myself. I see him as defective, and he finally admits it as well. I want to see who he can be. He's not yet able to begin to know how to use counseling and has never considered it. Well, he has no choice now. So if you can consider that revenge - since my intention is not to hurt him directly but to help myself - then call it that.

 

Other issues include our age. Frankly, I don't want to start over. I WANT the joys of a mature relationship, and I want him to enjoy them with me. Another is simply who I am - monogamy, commitment - they are my core. I am not bragging, more like complaining if anything, but nonetheless who I am. I wasn't such a great partner either and sort of endured lots of things instead of working on them with him. We both let the marriage fester for years. He says he felt my contempt and I confess I felt it. I did not respect his intellect or character. Even without knowing he was cheating, I felt disapproval of who he was - how easily he lied or rationalized things. I just didn't know I had a choice. I think that if I'd caught him in the beginning that either we would have gone our separate ways or he would have cleaned up his act. Not sure which I wish for now and doesn't matter.

 

Last, our children. I had a conversation recently with my daughter after a painful breakup. She talked about how she and her brothers have a model of monogamy and that's what they want and defines who they are. They don't know about their father's pattern of serial cheating and, if I have anything to do with it, they will not know. This is how they should be and, thank you, I will take the credit.

 

Does that make sense?

[Arieswoman]

As a BS (who divorced their WS) my problem was that I could never believe another word he said ever again.

 

After DD I started divorce proceedings at once but was trickle-truthed for weeks.

 

I found out that he had brought her back to our house for sex, that he had been asking other women at work for dates, that he had spent our money on taking her to hotels on the pretext of fishing trips.

 

Who knows how many women he cheated with or how long he had been messing about? Was the whole 8 year marriage a lie? I will never know.

 

A guy might admit to one ONS when it was really 2, 3 or more. If they lie about one thing they can easily lie about another.

 

IMO it's not so much the affair that is the problem, it's the lying.

[betrayedandhurting]

The length and details matter, I'm just wondering how much. My wife had a 1 year EA then a 6 year EA/PA with the PA being the last 2.5 and with horrible acts such as using our home. The funny thing was I was almost willing to try when I thought the EA/PA was 3 years but now I learned it was 6. That kinda suddenly became a deal breaker. Is 6 worse than 3? I guess but when you start talking years and acts in your home isn't all just crappy? My wife is remorseful and may have some legit issues with herself that caused this but 7 years of cheating in 14 years of marriage just seem to damn much doesn't it.

 

crazy how i "wish" she just had a ONS or a "brief" 2 month fling...