Infidelity while drunk, the "drunken mistake"

[atreides]

Many of us thread jacked a thread with this topic and to be fair to another thread, the topic is quite controversial but should be discussed.

 

For me I have two points of view, if indeed anyone is raped while drunk "black out" or drugged or any number of things under the "date rape" scale and not giving consent, then they are raped and it is not a matter of infidelity at that point.

 

However there are many instances where it is "black out" then regret and thus infidelity. I have also seen false claims of rape sadly for all contexts at hand. Many of us have been there to "black out" and have steered clear of it, some of us not, but alcohol is not an excuse nor in my opinion should there be any leniency to the situation at hand because alcohol was involved.

 

I do agree that many of us go after the victim "you shouldn't have done this or x,y & z" There is some merit to it but I think some discrimination, as in a discrimination scale should be used rather than blanketing it; but, there is no excuse nor should we attack the victim when they are violated, period. Yes the risks of the situation, decisions and etc are all there, but rape is the act of another that we SHOULD NOT TAKE AS DEFAULT as in to expect a rape, then to make that claim of "well you shouldn't have done."

 

But as with infidelity and affairs where many would never expect to be in such a situation forget the process on how it came to be which was not one decision normally but a collection of action and decision, thus the discriminatory scale.

 

I have read where some call it a "drunken mistake" no, it is much more than that as with many other kinds of drunken incidents when it would be "criminal" under the law. To me if a person says it's a "drunken mistake" i am willing to bet that alcohol has no context, as in infidelity is "just a mistake" anyway and it just so happens to have an "object compliment" at the moment.

 

For me infidelity is about character and principle, it comes down to what you promised to another of commitment as a worth and value assigned to of yourself that one can have faith in. Put religion aside or what have you, but to me it comes down to that, one voids their own worth & value assigned to because they no longer care or traded it away for what the faith in them from another especially the one they have "committed" to has in them for the moment at hand.

 

Thus the whole issue of secrecy of getting or not getting cuaght is void, they have already voided their worth for that aspect.

Then there is the worth and value the wayward puts in their committed "better half" whether one never get's caught or not, there is no "protection" from the infidelity as the exchange of what the wayward has chosen is already made when it comes to what has value and worth over another. Some would try to feebly argue, "shared worth" as if the the whole of the value grew exponentially to suit their needs.

 

It is one thing to fail/fall and recognize the reasons and try to right the wrong, but another to calculate as some do, to have no regret of their actions.

 

Alcohol should have no bearing on the point, it when abused is its own "evil" with its own set of problems to contend with.

Edited June 9, 2014 by atreides

[janedoe67]

The long and short for me is this:

 

Someone comes to a forum in crisis, exremely upset, stricken, possibly traumatized. I wasn't there. It is not my place to immediately jump on them in the midst of their obvious pain.

 

Using strangers as "surrogates" is standard fare on forums, but when we do not know (and we don't) know if something was a drunken mistake or as assault, it is inappropriate.

[umirano]

I take issue with shouting "victim-blame!!!" whenever people suggest considering whether being drunk and/or whorishly dressed contributed to the problem.

 

UI = being under the influence of alcohol to some extent

 

Most sane people purposely refrain from drinking when attending an exam, an interview, before going on a date that they have great expectations in, etc. Why? Because being drunk does not help us make good judgment, react fast, being apprehensive and being measured in our reactions. So it simply isn't true that someone who is UI is as safe as if he/she were sober. And if we assume there's free will then certainly the decision to drink in the first place is taken willingly. If I decide to take up base jumping and I break my neck in the process and end up paralyzed who of you were to say that my decision to start base jumping has nothing to do with it? This isn't victim blaming. It's simply acknowledging the fact that our decisions have consequences.

 

 

If you have a car accident UI you're still fully responsible. If you have a relationship accident UI you're suddenly not?

 

Rape investigation handbook (2nd ed.). Waltham, MA: Academic Press. 2011. p. 335. ISBN 0123860296 (via Wikipedia) says:

 

Investigators are trained to focus on determining whether a sexual act took place that met the legal definition of rape or sexual assault, determining whether the victim was impaired to a degree where they couldn't provide consent, determining whether the victim was a willing participant in any drug use, identifying the alleged perpetrator, and determining if he had access to drugs suspected to have been used in the DFSA.

 

No, finding someone who drank too much doesn't give me the right to intercourse with that person. But I don't have to assert their ability to make good judgement just because they maybe UI, when I otherwise have good reason to assume they're consenting. What tells you the girl/woman in question didn't orally consent to go with the guy to his apt. and later blacked out, remembers nothing and goes on to file a rape case?

 

We really have a false and heavy accusation, leading to all kinds of legal trouble for the guy too.

 

Girls pulling off the crazy party girl stunt are asking for this IMO. Here I'll happily victim-blame the party stud too you're setting yourself up for this kind of trouble of course if you take a drunk slnt with you. What goes around comes around. But it doesn't qualify as rape in my eyes.

 

As for slntty dresses, you can disregard the fact that more skin = more attention / more excitement all you want. You can ask for the human nature to change and shout at the moon. Is it moral? No. Is it fair? No. But it is what's happening out there.

 

Sometimes it works for you and you attract the hot stud you always wanted. And sometimes it doesn't and you attract a jerk. Throw in some alcohol. With the guy you always wanted it'll increase your chances of ending up with him because you're less shy and with the jerk or someone in between the two extremes it may lead to a kiss, grinding or a hookup that you end up regretting the next day.

 

If it's ok to dress in a slntty way to attract the hot stud you always wanted then you're acknowledging that it may attract guys you don't want. It is a proven mating strategy for girls. If a guy forces intercourse without your consent it is rape, yes of course. But you took an action that increased your visibility and sexual attraction and to say that it doesn't have an effect is contradicting the reasoning for the strategy.

 

Now we all accept unintended consequences all the time. By taking up base jumping I accept increasing my risk of ending up in a wheel chair. That is not victim blaming, again. I'm just spelling it out that it may have unintended consequences.

 

I'm sure all the PC people who gave nofeelings sh.it on the other thread, even insinuating he's a date/club rapist himself will merrily do the same here with me. If you care about facts though: I've never hooked up with a girl on any amount of any type of drug.

 

PS: Notice how I have to self censor the (purposely provocative) derogatory term for girls and not for guys? Double standards all the way, I'll grant you that.

[revelations]

A drunken mistake or a case of rape, this is were perspectives differ at. umirano stated the facts the best in my opinion and I cannot like his post enough. Most sane people would not argue the fact that if a woman is forced or drugged into having sex that it is then rape. However if she makes a bad choice because she is drunk, then people like me do not see it as rape. Just because she has consumed alcohol does not mean that she is no longer responsible for her own actions. I see women cheat on their boyfriends and husbands all the time and use the excuse of being drunk to cheat on them. Now I will say that being intoxicated will lower your ability to make sound judgements and decisions. However this is not an excuse and if it was then drunk drivers would be getting off the hook all the time.

 

I remember years ago I was at a small party. Now at the time i did not know it, however the one woman their that was drinking way too much had a crush on me. Well end result was that she was running around with only her top on for her butt hanging in the wind. She tried to pin me and sit on my face while telling me all kinds of things she wanted to do with me. I eventually got her off of me and got away from her, I was not going to bang a drunk woman. Well she ended up banging some other guy their with a few people watching this. Now later on this woman was beyond humiliated. Her and her friend were trying to apologize to me and at the time I had no clue why (remember I did not know she had a crush on me). Well once I finally got them both to stop saying how sorry she is I finally found out what was up. This is when it really sank into her that her bad drunken choice that night did not just embarrass her, it also cost her the chance of ever being able to be in a relationship with me. Of course any of you would understand why. After all no one wants a relationship with a woman that they had seen banging another guy and who wants to be with a woman that you know will cheat if she gets drunk.

 

When a woman is raped, yes I will agree that it is bad. However being drunk and trying to give it away to the first taker does not mean that she has been raped. It simply means that she is just a drunken slut is all. However the trouble is that depending on where you live, the laws will give that drunken slut the ability to cry rape simply because she regrets her decision the next day. So once again it is a case of a woman being a perfect little snow flake that can do no wrong and men are just evil predators. Bottom line is that being drunk does not mean that you are absolved from consequences to your actions.

[janedoe67]

I think the problem is that somewhere between drugging and forcible rape and being "a drunken slut is all" lies a LOT of ground where most of these cases fall. The problem is that many people are not willing or capable of thinking about the nuances in between. They will jump to "it was rape" or jump to "she is a drunken slut" and not use their brains to examine the possible in between.

[bubbaganoosh]

I think that each person has to that responsibility for their own actions. Before you take that next drink, think for a minuet and ask yourself if it's the smartest thing to do. If you know your limit, then stick with it.

 

Now in a perfect world it would happen but it comes down to just using common sense and what the consequences of that next drink can do to you for the rest of your life.

 

For me, I know I can't handle alcohol, never could so I'm a two beer guy and after that a can of Coke or ginger ale works and I don't give a hoot about peer pressure or being called a tea toddler.

[umirano]

I think the problem is that somewhere between drugging and forcible rape and being "a drunken slut is all" lies a LOT of ground where most of these cases fall.

Well that sounds very sophisticated, but you're mistaken. Because there's no grey area around rape. Was there any indication of not consenting, even the slightest? If not, there's no case to begin with. It's just a cop out, misleading law enforcement and accusing someone else falsely.

 

The problem is that many people are not willing or capable of thinking about the nuances in between. They will jump to "it was rape" or jump to "she is a drunken slut" and not use their brains to examine the possible in between.

 

If it wasn't rape (i.e. if she consented to the drug consumption and to the intercourse) she was a drunken slut/a party girl/a sex positive girl or whatever term suits you most. Then there are no nuances. Not having control over herself doesn't make it right to go around accusing people of rape.

[janedoe67]

Straw man - I never said it was ok to "go around accusing people of rape."

 

And yes there are nuances. If it wasn't rape, then it could be one-time crappy judgment from an otherwise good woman who has spent 15 years being faithful. Still wrong, but hardly a complete slut.

 

All or nothing thinking is rarely rational or productive.

[excusememister]

Most sane people would not argue the fact that if a woman is forced or drugged into having sex that it is then rape. However if she makes a bad choice because she is drunk, then people like me do not see it as rape.

 

Revelations, I think the OP from the original post on the Infidelity shows that she mad bad choices because she was drunk:

i dont know who the guy (girl?) was and i don't know what happened. i just know some part of me thought it was okay to go home with a complete stranger.

 

i wish we hadnt went to that house or that i had realized i was getting so drunk and stopped. ive always held my liquer well and behaved well. i never have thought alcohol is an excuse for bad behavior.

 

i cheated on my husband and i want to die. a car crash would have been better.

 

Who knows if this was rape. What we do know is that the OP posted on an Infidelity board, with a subject headline that "I cheated on my husband" and OP was looking for support. From her own post, she writes that she wished she had realized that she was getting so drunk and had stopped and how some part of her thought it was ok to go home with a complete stranger.

 

At any rate, if rape was committed, then justice should be done. But when women (or men) drink to the point that they blackout, they render themselves defenseless, and terrible things can be done to them. Women should especially be aware, that when you lose the ability to be responsible for yourself, you drastically increase the chances that you will attract the sorts of people who won't have your best interest at heart. That's not blaming the victim; that's trying to prevent more victims.

[Quiet Storm]

The fact is, we can't eradicate all of the rapists, drink-spiking jerks and horny drunk guys from the world. We just can't.

 

In light of that, we should take precautions to mitigate our risk. As adults, we have to be our own babysitters. It would be nice if others had our best interests at heart, but most don't. Knowing our limits and having boundaries ensures that we are in control, and it reduces the likelihood of something bad happening.

 

Also, I think people naively assume that because someone "blacked out", it means that they were obviously passed out or falling down drunk. When my alcoholic sister checked herself into detox, she had a .34 BAC and was talking coherently to doctors, walking normally, filling out paperwork. The next day she remembered nothing about it. Being black out drunk does not mean that a person will be obviously intoxicated, especially if that person has a high tolerance to alcohol. People can appear quite coherent and in control, and still be in a black out. It's possible for the speech & coordination areas of the brain to function, while the memory functions of the brain are on "pause". Being passed out, slurring, falling down are obvious signs that a person is unable to consent. But it's also possible that someone who appears to be in control of themselves & able to make decisions is in a blackout and will have no memories.

 

So parents, be sure to prepare your sons & daughters by warning them of the potential consequences of "drunk sex". It's their responsibility to understand that alcohol can affect their ability to make smart decisions, and they need to learn their limits. My son just got back from Senior Week, and we warned him about this. Its absolutely wrong for guys to take advantage of drunk girls, but its also unfair to be accused of rape when both people were drunk and both mutually consented.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Quiet Storm

[janedoe67]

I think what bothers me is when someone comes to a forum broken, humbled, contrite, horrified at themselves, and the response from some is to paste a picture of their own WS onto the stranger and have at it, almost....enjoying dissecting them when they are down. No WAY is the motivation for that to help the OP. So is all WS are that offensive to someone based on their own pain (which I understand) why not just stay away and shut up?

[nofeelings22]

I'm not going to post here. The majority of posts are well thought out and support a balanced reasoning to the issue of TWO PEOPLE having sex while blacked out.

[nofeelings22]

I think what bothers me is when someone comes to a forum broken, humbled, contrite, horrified at themselves, and the response from some is to paste a picture of their own WS onto the stranger and have at it, almost....enjoying dissecting them when they are down. No WAY is the motivation for that to help the OP. So is all WS are that offensive to someone based on their own pain (which I understand) why not just stay away and shut up?

 

 

I'd have to review the thread, but I didn't see this happen over there.

 

I know my own posts were to see if she could take all that guilt, not destroy her marriage by telling the husband and use the guilt to remind her never to do that again. Also, to questions why she was going to do that stuff as a happily married woman anyway.

[umirano]

Straw man - I never said it was ok to "go around accusing people of rape."

 

And yes there are nuances.[/Quote]

No, not with regard to rape can there be nuances. A person can't consent and not consent at the same time. It's either or. And if someone is being accused of rape when there was consent... well it's just not right.

If it wasn't rape, then it could be one-time crappy judgment from an otherwise good woman who has spent 15 years being faithful. Still wrong, but hardly a complete slut.[/Quote]

One time crappy judgment isn't rape, doesn't justify filing a case. On another note, making up ones mind the day after whether one consented or not, doesn't count either. I don't care so much about the exact term. Like I said I'm fine with calling her sexually empowered or whatever other euphemism there is. In the long rum different terms for the same idea will also be perceived equally. Right now I'm not sure whether slut or sexually empowered evokes more respect, think of slut walks. So I'm really just using a popular term, not making a moral judgement.

 

All or nothing thinking is rarely rational or productive.

Well... it is when we look at a legal issue. Or in science. Basically in any case where we try to establish a robust final truth. Of course you can say there are somewhat pregnant women in the world or that a statement like this is more useful or valid than the black and white approach. It's just not very helpful as in reality we don't find these women ever.

[umirano]

I think what bothers me is when someone comes to a forum broken, humbled, contrite, horrified at themselves, and the response from some is to paste a picture of their own WS onto the stranger and have at it, almost....enjoying dissecting them when they are down.

I understand that point. I think some people like to discuss solutions, i.e. focus on (practical) usefulness of responses. Others focus on analysis, on the truth aspect about the situation in question.

No WAY is the motivation for that to help the OP. So is all WS are that offensive to someone based on their own pain (which I understand) why not just stay away and shut up?

I propose that discussing and making the underlying phenomena (alcohol infested places, not following through with the girl aspect in girls night out) and addressing other problems in the discussion (immediately jumping for the rape hypothesis, shutting down most of the dissenting opinions with the "victim blame!!" call) also help. Maybe not the OP in the case at hand right now. But in the long run, if she chooses to come back and take a look at it, and of course others. I think a large part of the value in this forum isn't only the 'live' responses you get as an OP WRT your problem, but also the theoretical, more abstract concepts and ideas about love, RS, bonding, interacting with potential mates, etc. that are presented here.

[katielee]

someone said: "Just because she has consumed alcohol does not mean that she is no longer responsible for her own actions."

 

It does in the case of rape. if someone is incapacitated enough to not be able to give consent then it is rape.

 

I had two too many drinks one night at a hotel. So? An acquaintance got into my room when he knocked on my door because I saw my friends standing behind him and I assumed they were all coming in and I'd be safe. They didn't. He did. I held my arms to my side and I said, "I don't want to do this, and we shouldnt' be doing this" - at least three times. The next thing I know I'm on the bed with my pants off. I don't remember patches of time because I was either drug induced or drunker than I thought.

 

I didn't scream. I said I didn't want it. Yet he still did it.

 

Who's fault? His, but there is no way the DA would take the case or I would have much luck with a civil trial.

 

What in the heck does being drinking have anything to do with this? Nothing.

Edited June 9, 2014 by katielee

[janedoe67]

No, not with regard to rape can there be nuances. A person can't consent and not consent at the same time. It's either or. And if someone is being accused of rape when there was consent... well it's just not right.

 

One time crappy judgment isn't rape, doesn't justify filing a case. On another note, making up ones mind the day after whether one consented or not, doesn't count either. I don't care so much about the exact term. Like I said I'm fine with calling her sexually empowered or whatever other euphemism there is. In the long rum different terms for the same idea will also be perceived equally. Right now I'm not sure whether slut or sexually empowered evokes more respect, think of slut walks. So I'm really just using a popular term, not making a moral judgement.

 

 

Well... it is when we look at a legal issue. Or in science. Basically in any case where we try to establish a robust final truth. Of course you can say there are somewhat pregnant women in the world or that a statement like this is more useful or valid than the black and white approach. It's just not very helpful as in reality we don't find these women ever.

 

If you read my post, AGAIN, I did not say anything about false rape accusations are okay, that it is always rape, or anything of the sort. I SAID that one night of very bad judgment out of YEARS of fidelity does not a complete partygirl/slut make. THAT is the all or nothing to which I was referring.

 

And no, calling a stranger an all out slut is neither "analysis" nor useful.

[umirano]

but there is no way the DA would take the case or I would have much luck with a civil trial.

What's the DA's reasoning?

 

What in the heck does being drinking have anything to do with this? Nothing.

If you weren't drinking so much there's a chance you'd have realized that he's at your door with no good intentions and you'd had a better chance at fighting him off, could have yelled for help. I completely disagree with you. Drinking too much does have something to do with this, as does having questionable friends.

[katielee]

What's the DA's reasoning?

 

 

If you weren't drinking so much there's a chance you'd have realized that he's at your door with no good intentions and you'd had a better chance at fighting him off, could have yelled for help. I completely disagree with you. Drinking too much does have something to do with this, as does having questionable friends.

 

lack of evidence.

 

and if you knew anything about rape you'd know that most women don't yell for help or fight off. Flight, fight or freeze. Go to a rape abuse crisis center. They'll tell you that. You are very ill informed.

[umirano]

If you read my post, AGAIN, I did not say anything about false rape accusations are okay, that it is always rape, or anything of the sort. I SAID that one night of very bad judgment out of YEARS of fidelity does not a complete partygirl/slut make. THAT is the all or nothing to which I was referring.

Actually you said

somewhere between drugging and forcible rape and being "a drunken slut is all" lies a LOT of ground

and

If it wasn't rape, then it could be one-time crappy judgment from an otherwise good woman who has spent 15 years being faithful.

contrasting rape and a one time mistake (twice) instead of slut and a one time mistake, which is what you're claiming now. But ok.

 

And no, calling a stranger an all out slut is neither "analysis" nor useful.

Hard to disagree. Didn't see anyone call the OP in the original thread this or any other name.

[umirano]

lack of evidence.

Thought so. Can you see why it sucks for a man to be accused of rape when he had no indication that there was no consent, when he actually had explicit consent, but the woman changes her mind afterwards? Do you agree that generally it's a good thing people cannot be prosecuted without reasonable evidence?

 

and if you knew anything about rape you'd know that most women don't yell for help

Why not?

 

Flight, fight or freeze.

The more drug in a persons body the fewer the choices here.

 

Go to a rape abuse crisis center. They'll tell you that. You are very ill informed.

I'm happy to be informed.

[Quiet Storm]

someone said: "Just because she has consumed alcohol does not mean that she is no longer responsible for her own actions."

 

It does in the case of rape. if someone is incapacitated enough to not be able to give consent then it is rape.

 

I had two too many drinks one night at a hotel. So? An acquaintance got into my room when he knocked on my door because I saw my friends standing behind him and I assumed they were all coming in and I'd be safe. They didn't. He did. I held my arms to my side and I said, "I don't want to do this, and we shouldnt' be doing this" - at least three times. The next thing I know I'm on the bed with my pants off. I don't remember patches of time because I was either drug induced or drunker than I thought.

 

I didn't scream. I said I didn't want it. Yet he still did it.

 

Who's fault? His, but there is no way the DA would take the case or I would have much luck with a civil trial.

 

What in the heck does being drinking have anything to do with this? Nothing.

 

To me, this is clearly rape. The guy came into your room uninvited and you said no. You did not consent, and I'm sorry that happened to you.

 

But when a woman does consent, and has sex with a guy that is also drunk, who determines that she was too drunk to give consent? Where is the line? Obviously, passed out people cannot consent, we all agree on that. If a woman says yes, but is a little tipsy is it rape? If shes talking coherently at the time, how would a guy know that she's too drunk to consent? Because simply not remembering what happened the following day doesn't mean she didn't consent. It doesn't mean she was passed out during the blackout.

 

If two drunk people decide to have sex, and both are coherent and awake, is it rape just because she's drunk?

[umirano]

I'm sorry this happened to you katielee. And I find it brave of you to talk about it, despite potential triggers.

[nofeelings22]

To further the discussion, here is the official federal definition of rape:

 

"The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim."

 

The tricky thing is... consent isn't spoken. It is more physical communication, unless it is no, which I imagine is quite verbal.

 

In my entire life, and I have been with tons of girls, I have not once discussed having sex and if she consents. If her face is flush, you've been making out, you've had a little foreplay going on, she is wet... there really is no talking going on at all.

 

In fact, I go about it a little differently. I don't ask or force a girl into having sex. I just work to get her so fired up she initiates it.

 

Last girl i had sex with was Wed and Thur last week. First night, we were all but blacked out. I have little recollection of the sex. But, I'm sure I used my same old techniques to get her to want it more. I do remember failing at it because Iwas too drunk. I was a little noodley. ha ha The next time (Thur), we were fully sober. Morning sex.Started with full body massage for her, then worked it into a happy ending... which got her to attack me.

 

In no instance in my life, including drunk, blackout sex, have I ever asked for consent. I just build consent in the time leading up to sex.

 

Is this not normally what happens??

 

Do guys just charge on in to a girl that is dry an not turned on???

 

Has anyone ever stopped to get consent verbally??

Edited June 10, 2014 by nofeelings22

[drifter777]

...

I had two too many drinks one night at a hotel. So? An acquaintance got into my room when he knocked on my door because I saw my friends standing behind him and I assumed they were all coming in and I'd be safe. They didn't. He did. I held my arms to my side and I said, "I don't want to do this, and we shouldnt' be doing this" - at least three times. The next thing I know I'm on the bed with my pants off. I don't remember patches of time because I was either drug induced or drunker than I thought.

 

I didn't scream. I said I didn't want it. Yet he still did it.

 

I believe your story and there's no argument that this was rape. Why didn't you scream? You said there were a number of friends in the hotel hallway so there was a chance you would have been heard and he would have stopped. Even if nobody heard you, your screaming might have snapped him out of forcing himself on you. I'm not saying you did wrong by not screaming, I'm just wondering why you didn't.