Brutual MC session

[gettingstronger]

This is hard to write as I know it will trigger some-

 

We had a brutal MC session last week that I am still processing. We have been working on the "why" for a while- my husband felt like he was finally ready to face the truth of what he was capable of doing-

 

In a nutshell- ego and control- our lives had hit a comfortable plateau- he is a VP, I am a teacher- well known in our community-second home, extra car, kids doing well- after years of triumphs and milestones things had become comfortable-for me thats what we had worked for-for him, it made him feel empty (he is being treated for depression BTW) because the focus had shifted from him- so...

 

enter a person willing to do just about anything for him- wait on his calls, lie to her family just to be with him, buy new clothes and get all dressed up just to see him, spend money to follow him out to business trips, wait for him at the hotel while he worked-if he mentioned he liked a certain type of dress, she would show up wearing it-he set the rules and the pace-could say he was busy or confused as an excuse not to contact for a few days and was questioned very little about his motives or actions-

 

I made it easy-I trusted him and the life we built-he really did not need to outright lie to me-I never checked up on him-never looked at his phone or snooped-

 

He had what he needed-an ego boost (as he put it a whore in the bedroom and a cook in the kitchen) and a devoted family at home-he shook and cried as he talked about who and what he was-he is disgusted about being that way (as am I)- he talked about dday and how it all crashed in on him-how he in one instant saw himself for the manipulative jerk he was and although she was a willing participant (no future faking) he knew he was taking advantage of a weakness in her and my faith in him- the fog lifted in an instant and he knew his two biggest challenges was winning me back and facing/changing who he was-

 

So-in you MC or IC have your had a painful "aha" moment like this- how did you handle it-how did it make you feel?

[carhill]

For myself, it was when the psychologist aggressively pursued the emotional attachment I had to my AP. Those sessions felt like being tossed overboard without a life preserver and left to drown. What he was doing was perfectly appropriate, establishing the unhealthiness of the attachment, but to me at the time it felt like death. I think this period went on for 4-6 sessions over a couple of months.

 

However, the psychologist was skilled, both in not pushing it past a point of 'breaking' my desire to work the issue, as well as providing balance in session with my exW's issues and generally finishing up sessions on a positive note to impel the desire for self-work away from session.

 

IMO, it's critical to have a MC skilled both with infidelity as well as with any other known issues facing the couple, in our case my exW's abusive childhood, amongst other things. It's one place where I believe the couple should qualify the therapist and be willing to fire those who don't fit well with the couple's goals.

 

IMO, with a couple who authentically loved each other, our MC could have easily facilitated a healthy reconciliation. For us, he facilitated an amicable divorce. I still thank him to this day and certainly wouldn't hesitate to see him again for PMC should I ever become involved with a woman again, if he hasn't retired. Good guy.

[harrybrown]

I wish my wife would come out of limbo land.

 

she will not "fess up", just deny and will never admit to anything.

 

Still do not know the name of the OM, makes one think it is every man in the world. Do not trust her at all.

 

I am glad that your H is starting to realize what he did, but he may never realize all the pain that you feel from his betrayal.

 

Hope you are doing better. It does seem that with time the pain is less, but then she goes somewhere, doesn't answer her damn phone and it starts all over again. But don't worry, she was out shopping and was not doing anything wrong.

 

But how do I know, I can't trust her.

 

Hope you and your H make good progress.

[dichotomy]

So-in you MC or IC have your had a painful "aha" moment like this- how did you handle it-how did it make you feel?

 

 

It has been long and dragged out for us, but there have been step by step breakthoughs. My wife lacked regret at first and had fog for a LONG time over OM and her past life.

 

Aha Moment 1. First therapist – my wife began to repeat her often stated claim to me that what she did was not technically adultery or really bad. She got about part way though this common denial when she saw the the look in the female therapist eyes (shock/disgust) and she stopped mid word of “not adult….” And then finally looked down and said “ok.. it was and it was wrong”.

 

Aha Moment 2. She had a very foggy and admiring view of OM. Sometime around the end of first therapist time she finally said to me “OM was a worm and used me!” to which I responded “yes he did – and you used him as well” to which she just looked like a deer in the headlights.

 

Aha moment 3 - After a session, while in a parking lot shopping, she said "I am not that person anymore, I have changed"

 

Aha Moment 4 - - in progress with new therapist, I am hopeful but frustrated and resentful at times time. This is the last issue for us really - sex in marriage stuff - but I am sticking it out.

 

Some of our MC sessions have had tears, angry shouting, and more.

Edited June 2, 2014 by dichotomy

[Spark1111]

wow....I could have written this post.

 

My H was depressed and he felt unimportant and unloved. That one killed me because if love is actions of self-sacrifice, well....I had done that in spades.

 

the next hardest hurdle was HIS childhood. With both parents passed, he did not want to visit early abuse and neglect issues. It felt disrespectful to him. he walked out of a few IC sessions....tried to take breaks from it all.

 

(They say wanting to miss a session is a BIG WHY question to ask one's self.)

 

Insecurity breeds insecurity and manipulation makes one manipulative.

 

Unmet needs from childhood, such as needing affirmations of love, attention, validation NEVER go away no matter how hard you stuff them.

 

That's why the WHY is so damn important and we BSs want them to keep digging....

 

I think you just jumped the first hurdle, but be aware a second one is coming: The Why of the why, KWIM?

 

And if he courageous enough to go there, that is the real life altering Eureka moment. When you learn your Achilles heel and what triggers it, you never have to make such a destructive decision like engaging in an affair again.

[tornapart2002]

Your husband sounds a lot like mine and the feelings he has been expressing the past few months now as he works through individual counseling. Having some sort of "answer" to the why can help us know how to work on things in the future.

 

For me it makes me a bit paranoid sometimes that I am doing things like before or wrong or I'm going to push him into an affair again...as if it was truly my fault, when it wasn't. No matter what is wrong in a marriage, nothing excuses that ultimate betrayal. Nothing.

 

It sounds like both your husband and mine do what so many of us do and instead of actually telling us what was bothering them they looked for what they felt was the easy way out -- running to someone else and never having to break it to us they were unhappy.

 

Only they never thought far enough ahead to realize it was going to destroy what they actually held dear and really wanted in life.

 

On Dday my husband blamed me for what he did. He was completely defensive and horrible. It has been about 10 months and he has changed so much through counseling. He expresses shame and grief and when I cry he holds me and says "I'm sorry for what I've done to you and our family. I wish i could go back and change it all. I don't feel like I will ever forgive myself."

 

He doesn't want anything for Father's Day because he says he doesn't deserve it. "I wasn't a good father.Don't do anything special for me. I just want you and our son.."

 

Part of me hates to see him so down on himself, but at the same time, I know the shame and self-hate is something he has to work on on his own...just like I have to do with my self-hate and blaming of myself and low self esteem (even though we both need to support each other as much as we can.)

 

Hang in there...together.

[tornapart2002]

Oooh this is so my husband. A lifetime of rejection from both parents. A father who his mother left but who never went looking for his kids(to this day he's never tried to find my husband or my husband's sister). A mother who was horrible to him and treated him like he was a second class citizen because he was a boy. She tried to do the same to my son but we no longer allow her to have contact with him. We don't have contact with her at all, even though she lives two miles from us. My husband's sister stopped talking to us shortly after all of this hit the fan and cut him out. she's wanted me out of the family a long time so she thought this was her ticket. Much to her surprise we started working on our marriage and now she won't talk to any of us --- as if I was the one who did something to her brother.

 

And I keep encouraging my husband to continue counseling. I told him he has to talk about his mom and his sister, but he said "they have nothing to do with what I did. I take full responsibility for it."

 

I am glad he is taking responsiblity but he still needs to talk out the feelings of abandonment and insecurity and like you said how "Insecurity breeds insecurity and manipulation makes one manipulative."

 

That's who he was -- manipulative. He manipulated everyone to do what he wanted. It's hard for me to even believe all of this because he is very sweet in so many ways. But behind that was a side darker than I think both he and I realized.

 

 

wow....I could have written this post.

 

My H was depressed and he felt unimportant and unloved. That one killed me because if love is actions of self-sacrifice, well....I had done that in spades.

 

the next hardest hurdle was HIS childhood. With both parents passed, he did not want to visit early abuse and neglect issues. It felt disrespectful to him. he walked out of a few IC sessions....tried to take breaks from it all.

 

(They say wanting to miss a session is a BIG WHY question to ask one's self.)

 

Insecurity breeds insecurity and manipulation makes one manipulative.

 

Unmet needs from childhood, such as needing affirmations of love, attention, validation NEVER go away no matter how hard you stuff them.

 

That's why the WHY is so damn important and we BSs want them to keep digging....

 

I think you just jumped the first hurdle, but be aware a second one is coming: The Why of the why, KWIM?

 

And if he courageous enough to go there, that is the real life altering Eureka moment. When you learn your Achilles heel and what triggers it, you never have to make such a destructive decision like engaging in an affair again.

[Mr. Lucky]

So-in you MC or IC have your had a painful "aha" moment like this- how did you handle it-how did it make you feel?

Never did and that's why my first wife and I divorced.

 

However painful, I hope your path to recovery takes you where you want to go ...

 

Mr. Lucky

[gettingstronger]

Thanks to everyone that shared their experiences and for the words of encouragement-

 

It is crazy how so many of this situation fit the same pattern- I agree the guilt and shame is hard to witness but a necessary part of reconciliation-

No matter what he has done, I take no joy in his pain- no matter how well deserved it is-

 

He also had a difficult childhood- at first I thought-what kind of idiot does as an adult what he loathed in his parents as a child but I have come to understand they do not relate the two until they are looking backwards-

 

One of the most hurtful things my husband said I said on dday was "congrads, you f'ed your Mother"-

[Spark1111]

he had mommy issues and some daddy because daddy was never home (working all the time) and mommy was stressed to the max. My MIL had daddy issues...long story...but he checked out on the family when she was 9.

 

She feared my H, her son, would be too much like her volatile dad....and she convinced her H to crack down on his young son.

 

Both were very punitive and very intolerant....and very ignorant.

 

Pain begets pain and it becomes generational in that HURT people HURT people.

 

Until someone understands WHAT made them vulnerable to the attentions of a stranger....NO BS is truly safe.

 

It had NOTHING to do with the vast majority of us.

 

The TRUE WHY of such a self destructive act started YEARS before we were ever on the radar with our fWS.

[gettingstronger]

I agree- I think if the ex-APs could be a fly on the wall at MC they would get over these MM pretty darn quick- they would understand they could have really been anyone and it was not about the two people involved-it was about damage and manipulation-

[tornapart2002]

Wow. Worst thing I said was that he turned into the person he hated who had cheated with this same woman (on him) 15 years ago.He hated that but it was so true.

 

Thanks to everyone that shared their experiences and for the words of encouragement-

 

It is crazy how so many of this situation fit the same pattern- I agree the guilt and shame is hard to witness but a necessary part of reconciliation-

No matter what he has done, I take no joy in his pain- no matter how well deserved it is-

 

He also had a difficult childhood- at first I thought-what kind of idiot does as an adult what he loathed in his parents as a child but I have come to understand they do not relate the two until they are looking backwards-

 

One of the most hurtful things my husband said I said on dday was "congrads, you f'ed your Mother"-

[Red123]

We just had our first session last week. So far so good( the whole hour I have experienced). My H was really open and I think the counsellor will work for us. So no major breakthroughs yet but here's hoping it will help. I did however leave with a weight taken off my shoulders because I was able to talk about with someone other than my H. So I'm hoping each visit will give me something.

[BetrayedH]

Never did and that's why my first wife and I divorced.

 

However painful, I hope your path to recovery takes you where you want to go ...

 

Mr. Lucky

 

My experience mirrored this one. I hoped for MC to provide a breakthrough (and so I embraced it, yapping like a fool) but my wife's mouth was shut like a steel trap. I left most MCs feeling like a pathetic loser, wishing my wife gave a crap.

 

I'm glad to hear it works for others.

[Trustnoone]

I haven't had a MC session yet that wasn't brutal. I also seem to get most of the homework. That aside I have to admit our therapist is very good. We were very fortunate to get her. I would say the most brutal session is when I discovered I no longer cared if I lived or died. Followed by my WW's affair partner is twenty three years her senior. That was difficult to hear. The others that I don't mention are worse but too painful for me to put in this forum. These were the worst I can actually talk about. I hate MC and that my WW has put me in this position but you play the hand you were dealt for YOUR best possible outcome. As for why WW had the affair, the list is long but affection and emotions are highly ranked. The cheating is on her though which she understands. I really wish this was a bad nightmare and not reality.

[gettingstronger]

Trustnoone-

I am so sorry this has been so tough on you- are you in IC as well-I find the combo is helpful because I can hash out the MC sessions in IC- I know its a soul wrecking experience and I agree- even 16 months out I still have those moments when I wish he would just say "it never happened" or I will wake up and be who/what I use to be-

[Mr. Lucky]

I haven't had a MC session yet that wasn't brutal. I also seem to get most of the homework.

I looked at MC as a pretty accurate barometer of our marital future. If my exW wasn't willing to do the work in the structured setting MC provides, what chance would we have in the chaos that is a post-affair marriage? Turns out I was right...

 

Mr. Lucky

[TheWalkingDead]

My big IC therapy breakthrough was when I realized my therapist was merely dragging things out to keep being paid, just like most do. She is a predator just like the OP is a predator.

 

Glad you all get something out of your MC.....IF Medical Doctors did business like most of the alleged "therapists", the morgue wouldn't be able to keep up! Heh....

[Red123]

This is hard to write as I know it will trigger some-

 

We had a brutal MC session last week that I am still processing. We have been working on the "why" for a while- my husband felt like he was finally ready to face the truth of what he was capable of doing-

 

In a nutshell- ego and control- our lives had hit a comfortable plateau- he is a VP, I am a teacher- well known in our community-second home, extra car, kids doing well- after years of triumphs and milestones things had become comfortable-for me thats what we had worked for-for him, it made him feel empty (he is being treated for depression BTW) because the focus had shifted from him- so...

 

enter a person willing to do just about anything for him- wait on his calls, lie to her family just to be with him, buy new clothes and get all dressed up just to see him, spend money to follow him out to business trips, wait for him at the hotel while he worked-if he mentioned he liked a certain type of dress, she would show up wearing it-he set the rules and the pace-could say he was busy or confused as an excuse not to contact for a few days and was questioned very little about his motives or actions-

 

I made it easy-I trusted him and the life we built-he really did not need to outright lie to me-I never checked up on him-never looked at his phone or snooped-

 

He had what he needed-an ego boost (as he put it a whore in the bedroom and a cook in the kitchen) and a devoted family at home-he shook and cried as he talked about who and what he was-he is disgusted about being that way (as am I)- he talked about dday and how it all crashed in on him-how he in one instant saw himself for the manipulative jerk he was and although she was a willing participant (no future faking) he knew he was taking advantage of a weakness in her and my faith in him- the fog lifted in an instant and he knew his two biggest challenges was winning me back and facing/changing who he was-

 

So-in you MC or IC have your had a painful "aha" moment like this- how did you handle it-how did it make you feel?

Brutal session today. I feel so drained and I shocked myself. The counsellor stated that my expressing my anger toward my H for the A was pushing him away and that I need to channel it or get some IC or someone else to talk to. She said its ok to talk about it with him but that the reality is I could be pushing him away. I kind of snapped a bit. I said well maybe I should be pushing him away then and maybe that's for the best, if his A didn't push me out maybe this will. I have been guilty of saying I don't think I can do this but this statement shocked me a bit. My H was so hurt and the counsellor states that I appear to need space and maybe we need to look at separation. The truth is that I think I was hoping she would say your hurting and that is understandable that you feel that way but she didn't. I shut down immediately and the session ended pretty quick. The truth is I am just so wounded but his A and so afraid to trust him again. My H and I both left hurt and he is now very worried that I want to leave. We are booked again but I feel a little uncomfortable. I have a couple of weeks until I go back so hopefully I will get over this before that day comes. Now that I am home I realize the worst part is that she is right, it really just hurts to hear it.

[carhill]

So-in you MC or IC have your had a painful "aha" moment like this- how did you handle it-how did it make you feel?

 

Ah-ha was realizing we weren't in MC solely to assign responsibility but rather to decide whether or not we'd let the client live or die and get to that decision and implement it.

 

Once I got past assigning responsibility or resisting assignment of responsibility and simply accepting the real and moving forward, MC became a pretty positive experience. That happened about eight months in. It took another six or so to decide the fate of the client. Our decision was to let the client die. It did, with a modicum of dignity, and life went on. I'd happily provide a referral for the excellent psychologist who was our MC, even though our M did not survive.

 

One key aspect I noted with him was, no matter how brutal the sessions were, he had the singular ability to build consensus and end sessions in a collaborative way, where we went out the door feeling generally positive about the experience. I remember some of our most revealing and pivotal 'talks' took place in the parking lot after session or at lunch if we had time for that. Ultimately, that style would allow us to file our documents at the court for final dissolution and go out to lunch and have a pleasant conversation for the last time as a married couple. The dissolution would come the next day.

 

ETA, it wasn't the psychologist who 'pushed' for continued sessions. In fact, he was the one asking if we wanted to continue and, in the end, clearly stated he felt that he had done his part and it was time for us to decide.

 

I was the fMM; exW was the fBS.

Edited July 19, 2014 by carhill

[harrybrown]

I do hope you make progress in these sessions.

 

Hopefully, the MC will work toward helping both of you.

 

Have to change sometimes if the counselor takes one side over the other.

[gettingstronger]

So interesting that this thread was revived recently-

Last night we were just hanging out, we just returned from a trip and were settling in when my husband got really quiet-

For whatever reason his mind drifted to what he had done and it once again hit him really, really hard-he seems to still struggle so much with who he allowed himself to become and how its so different from what he values in himself and others-

It boiled down to last night-he is really struggling with the fact he lied so easily, took advantage of me so completely and had zero integrity during the A- I struggle with those things too, but I believe he struggles with it more- probably because he is the one that did all those things-

MC is good stuff but can also force you to see parts of you that are painful-

 

For you Red- I don't like your MC- I don't think the purpose of MC is to make you someone your husband wants to be with, its to make your marriage something you both value and want to be part of- I don't think you should have to hold back your feelings because it will drive your H away-maybe talk about strategies to speak more calmly or something but not shut it out totally-

[Red123]

Thanks. I'm not sure I like her either lol. Maybe one more session then see but I'm still thinking. I have until august 1 to decide.

Edit. So the more I think about this and in the spirit of owning my stuff, I think I may have recently fallen into a bit of victimhood. The counsellor stated that it appears that when I say I can't do this anymore® it may be because I want him him to hurt as bad as I do and to fear losing me. I was so offended as I don't think I am a vengeful person but I think she is right. If I really think about my own behaviour from an outside perspective I can see how the victim in me feels that because of what he has done I have a free pass to excuse all of my behaviour. That is not right and not who I am. Nothing excuses what he has done but I need to own my part. He went NC with the OW, he wrote the NC letter on his own, he has shown me each time she has attempted contact, he set up MC and has been doing everything in his power to show me this is what he wants. I have been holding on to my fear of being hurt again and my urge to run to avoid pain. The victim in me hates someone calling me on this but it's the truth(as much as I hate to see it, I do). Thanks for reading I really needed to write it out.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Red123

[DasPope]

MC is strange at best, brutal at times and usually fairly boring for me. I think it has helped me understand that often there is not much thinking behind a WS's actions.

[gettingstronger]

Red- I am glad you are feeling better-I am not convinced that "owning" your part means you have to view your behaviors as unacceptable- I still feel that its important to be able to express yourself without feeling like you are pushing him away- I know for me- I can be pretty brutal in expressing my hurt and anger- and while sometimes my timing is not great, I don't feel like I am not justified in feeling like I do-

 

In the end, if you feel good about your MC and the advice you get-that is what counts- we all deal differently and we all need to feel good about our path-

 

Continued well wishes for you and your H-