No say in what I do for my birthday?

[somedude81]

P.S: happy birthday

 

 

P.P.S: He wants you to hook up with another guy? Whaaa? I cant understand guys who want that! To me that seems twisted!!

Her birthday isn't until the 8th. This was just an early thing.

 

Her boyfriend has a cuckold fetish, which yes does sound extremely twisted. I can't imagine why he would possibly want that. A man who truly loves his partner should get sick with the thought of her with another man. Not actually get turned on by it.

[iris219]

I'm going to swim against the tide here and say the guy isn't bad. He tried to do something for her birthday, when she didn't have anything set up herself. That's nice. His fault is he hasn't yet grasped that Phoe here has mild anxiety and her day off is important, which is because of their relatively short time together. Precisely instances like this are what teach people about each other.

 

Of course I havent read previous threads. If this is a consistent issue of him arranging things for explicitly bad times and expecting more gratitude, there's a problem. And it's not great that he calls you a pain in the ass.

 

I agree.

 

In isolation, this incident wasn't that big of a deal, not nearly as big as people are trying to make it. You were grouchy; he called you a pain in the ass. This happens in relationships.

 

Phoe is an adult--a young, fairly inexperienced one when it comes to relationships--but an adult nonetheless. She needs to do what she feels is best for her life and relationship, and if she makes the wrong decisions, that's OK because that's how we learn to make better ones next time.

 

I think we should offer her advice, but trust her to do what is best for herself in this moment (and that may change next week).

 

Most of us have been in situations we should have extracted ourselves from sooner. People get out of these situations when they are ready, not when they are constantly pestered to do so.

[iris219]

Her boyfriend has a cuckold fetish, which yes does sound extremely twisted. I can't imagine why he would possibly want that. A man who truly loves his partner should get sick with the thought of her with another man. Not actually get turned on by it.

 

I think it's gross, but people have all sorts of "twisted" fantasies.

 

I think men using porn everyday is gross. I think fantasizing about two women is BORING and I don't want to hear about it.

 

Phoe's bf made the mistake of suggesting they try it. Men bringing up having threesomes is nothing new. She said no. As long as he accepts that answer and never brings it up again, we shouldn't hold a sexual fantasy against the guy.

[somedude81]

I think it's gross, but people have all sorts of "twisted" fantasies.

 

I think men using porn everyday is gross. I think fantasizing about two women is BORING and I don't want to hear about it.

 

Phoe's bf made the mistake of suggesting they try it. Men bringing up having threesomes is nothing new. She said no. As long as he accepts that answer and never brings it up again, we shouldn't hold a sexual fantasy against the guy.

There is a difference between bringing up a fantasy and trying to force your partner to play it out.

 

I had one conversation about fantasies with my ex, told her that my fantasy was a two girl threesome, she said that she doesn't share, and that was it. We never talked about it again. Reading Phoe's other thread, it seems that what happened between them was more in-depth than a simple conversation about fantasies.

 

Alas I'm going off-topic.

[saltyfishhead666]

I think it's gross, but people have all sorts of "twisted" fantasies.

 

I think men using porn everyday is gross. I think fantasizing about two women is BORING and I don't want to hear about it.

 

Phoe's bf made the mistake of suggesting they try it. Men bringing up having threesomes is nothing new. She said no. As long as he accepts that answer and never brings it up again, we shouldn't hold a sexual fantasy against the guy.

 

He didn't ask for a threesome though did he, he asked her to "suck some other blokes cock"

 

An act he isn't involved in, and she has said herself this conversation took place whilst giving him head and he went floppy. There is a massive difference between a joint sexual fantasy and one soley based on your own wants and needs.

[Leigh 87]

Iris - yes this incident alone IS awful! She dropped everything to drive two towns away just to collect him. It is not even her birthday yet and she doesn't enjoy fries and pool when she is not in the mood for it.

 

He had the audacity to try to push her to do something she didn't feel like doing. When she said quiet simply that she didn't feel like it, he gave her the silent treatment until she felt pressured into giving into his needs.

 

There is so much wrong with this. He is an adult, it is not normal to sulk and give the silent treatment. Mature adults don't typically do this.

 

She did him a favour and he couldn't even accept a very simple notion - that she had stuff to do and wanted to go home and cuddle and get back to her housework.

 

There is a BIG problem when grown men cannot just make very reasonable adjustments. So your gf doesn't want to get fries and play pool 2 days before her actual birthday. Great, she just drove two downs to get him, MAYBE he should have shrugged it off and planned SOMETHING ELSE that she FELT EXCITED about doing?

 

There is so much wrong with this man.

[iris219]

He didn't ask for a threesome though did he, he asked her to "suck some other blokes cock"

 

An act he isn't involved in, and she has said herself this conversation took place whilst giving him head and he went floppy. There is a massive difference between a joint sexual fantasy and one soley based on your own wants and needs.

 

I don't think there's a difference between asking for a threesome or asking her to give some guy a blow job. Neither one appeals to me personally (the threesome appeals even less), but people are entitled to their own personal fantasies.

 

I still think we're judging him because we find his fantasy odd.

 

He didn't know she wouldn't be into it until he brought it up. As long as he has shut up about it and it isn't affecting their sex life, I'm not sure we should hold it against him. People are into all kinds of freaky sexual stuff that we'd be shocked to hear about.

[MidwestUSA]

Phoe, from one Cappy to another... leave this one - he's a frog.

 

 

Except that Phoe isn't a Cappy (and I only knew this off the top of my head because I am one)

 

Two brutally strong signs. The desire to dig in the heels and fight to the death shall work in the capricorn's favor, unless Phoe learns some mind games to offset it.

 

This old goat 'won' every relationship battle put before me. (And ended up alone ) The only hope was a Pisces, and it took me till the age of fifty to even meet one!

 

Have you done any readings, Phoe? If not for prediction of the furniture, but at least to learn some ways of dealing with him?

[saltyfishhead666]

I don't think there's a difference between asking for a threesome or asking her to give some guy a blow job. Neither one appeals to me personally (the threesome appeals even less), but people are entitled to their own personal fantasies.

 

I still think we're judging him because we find his fantasy odd.

 

He didn't know she wouldn't be into it until he brought it up. As long as he has shut up about it and it isn't affecting their sex life, I'm not sure we should hold it against him. People are into all kinds of freaky sexual stuff that we'd be shocked to hear about.

 

Unfortunately people are judging this on more than this one incident.

 

Disgusting yep I agree - sharing is a no go. However, a minimum of 15 page thread isn't created for someone's fantasy, there is so much more too it. Poor lady

[Leigh 87]

I don't think there's a difference between asking for a threesome or asking her to give some guy a blow job. Neither one appeals to me personally (the threesome appeals even less), but people are entitled to their own personal fantasies.

 

I still think we're judging him because we find his fantasy odd.

 

He didn't know she wouldn't be into it until he brought it up. As long as he has shut up about it and it isn't affecting their sex life, I'm not sure we should hold it against him. People are into all kinds of freaky sexual stuff that we'd be shocked to hear about.

 

 

I couldn't care less about his fantasy.

 

I know a man who went to remote areas, drew a face on his penis and filmed himself talking to it. His wife divorced him when she found the tapes.

 

Totally fine. I wouldn't date a guy who wanted threesomes or wanted me to suck another guys ****, or who enjoyed talking to their penis. Phoe is SO not comfortable with his fantasy and the fact he GOT SOFT when she wasn't into the idea. We are all WORRIED that Phoe is too blinded by love to even KNOW what she is and isn't comfortable with.

If the person I dearly loved wanted to involve others in the bedroom I would have to think long and hard about whether or not I wanted to stay with him. Did Phoe even THINK that she may be better off with a man who DOES NOT seriously wanted to act out a fantasy she HATES the idea of?!

 

No, this guy managed to break up with her first! She never considered what was best for HER, she only ever went with the fact that he acted into her and she obviously doesn't think she can find that again easily so she automatically overlooked his fantasy.

 

Where as I have slightly more dating experience than Phoe albeit not a whole lot more, but I have massively lowered my tolerance for men and their antics. I would walk from a guy who I KNOW would happily act out a fantasy I felt sick about. I KNOW I would meet a man who adored me and who DIDN'T want me to suck another guys ****.

 

It is dangerous of Phoe to think this man is one of a kind and that she wont necessarily find another man who acts "into her". So she just puts up with bad behaviour. It is alarming how she does NOTHING wrong and yet ALWAYS manages to turn the things HE does wrong, into HER mistakes! I find this all shocking and I don't care how wonderful he is to her most of the time, my own bf wouldn't put up with me if I was a b*tch SOME of the time, he would tell me to walk if I was regularly VERY unreasonable!

 

I cannot believe Phoe makes this about her... "her" mistakes:(

[clia]

I'm offended on your behalf that he took you out for your birthday and you didn't even get to have a drink! What kind of birthday celebration is that? Sheesh.

[Leigh 87]

I will tell you a story Phoe,

 

... of when my ex wanted me to be moore carefree and "low maintenance" when I didn't want to just get up go someplace without at least packing toothpaste....

 

He had an urge to just get on his motor bike and ride away someplace. I said no, I can't afford to buy snacks out, I need to grab an apple and drink PLUS a toothbrush IF we end up staying over some place as I hate not brushing my teeth. It would have taken me 5 minutes to get my back pack and throw in a comb for motorbike hair, lipbalm for my chapped lips, and a toothbrush, toothpaste AND a snack and water.

 

But he wanted a girl who would just hop on his bike and ride into the wind..

 

..... When I didn't want to just jump on the bike with him, he was disappointed but he didn't make me feel bad about it. He didn't call me a pain in the ass.

 

And he didn't treat me very well in general, he wasn't that wonderful to me. Yet he managed to refrain from calling me a pain in the ass when I refused to do something to HIS liking and standards. The fact even my ex managed to hold his tongue and not act like a super jerk to me when your guy DOES lash out, speaks volumes. The fact Phoe did him a massive favour that day and yet this guy STILL managed to call her a pain in the pass, when my idiot ex was not even this bad, is just not good.

[TAV]

I don't think there's a difference between asking for a threesome or asking her to give some guy a blow job. Neither one appeals to me personally (the threesome appeals even less), but people are entitled to their own personal fantasies.

 

I still think we're judging him because we find his fantasy odd.

 

He didn't know she wouldn't be into it until he brought it up. As long as he has shut up about it and it isn't affecting their sex life, I'm not sure we should hold it against him. People are into all kinds of freaky sexual stuff that we'd be shocked to hear about.

 

I don't judge anyone for their sexual fantasies. Whatever floats your boat and is within the law, as far as I'm concerned.

 

But this was not Phoe and her bf lying cosily in each other's arms discussing their sexual fantasies to spice things up a little or to explore and get to know each other. This was them actually having sex and him trying to make her agree to sucking another man's dick (imo only to see how much control he had over her) and when she was uncomfortable and declined he lost all sexual desire for her.

 

The situation was quite insulting tbf.

 

Anyway, his behaviour is not my concern here. It is how Phoe handles it all and where this relationship might lead to in the future that is worrying me.

 

Though the fact that she needs to vent (and therefore something about his reasoning keeps triggering her to vent) in itself is a good thing. She does not consider his behaviour normal. Yet.

[MidwestUSA]

Prediction of the FUTURE, not furniture, silly autocorrect. (My astrology related post).

[veggirl]

I thought the cuckold thing was a test. This guy needs to pick a story and stick to it. The bday thing....just another glaringly obvious example of how at the end of the day this R is about him. Phoe you've had more issues in these 4 or 5 months than people in healthy relationships have in years. Do you realize that? I'm genuinely wondering.

[kodakgirl]

Happy early birthday!! (you look lovely in your new profile pic by the way!!)

 

I know how sometimes posting can be a mixture of relief and regret, especially when posters get to know you well. Remember though the folks here are on your side. The people on your side are always going to judge things much more harshly than you would yourself, especially when they don't know the other person even a little bit. You are the one in love, you are going to judge much less harshly. Even though it's difficult it's usually best to let those biases balance each other out and see what's left.

 

Specifically on this situation, I do think he's being pretty insensitive. He made an effort to surprise, even if that surprise was lame and not really what you wanted, and even though you weren't super keen you made an effort to appreciate that and make an effort back. Maybe you weren't thrilled to pieces, but you have every right not to be, he honestly wasn't very thoughtful (which stands out even more since he usually is!). But you still recnogized that he tried. He didn't do the same. YOU tried too, and he didn't recognize or appreciate that. Even if you are a "pain in the ass" sometimes, that doesn't mean he gets to claim that every time you're expressing your feelings. If you aren't giddy with excitement over his half-assed effort, maybe HE should be making more of an effort. You saw he wasn't thrilled at your response and you worked to please him more-- did he do the same for you? On YOUR birthday?

 

If he's angry about it, he's being a baby. Nothing to do with anything else in your relationship--in this specific instance he is clearly the one being insensitive and selfish.

[Candy_Pants]

To the men who are saying OP's boyfriend "isn't a mind reader", that's fair enough. But if you don't KNOW what your gf wants to do for her birthday (even though she said she wanted pho and a smoothie and he IGNORED her simple request) wouldn't you at least ask??

 

Her bf wasn't thinking of her at all. And idiot who has two brain cells would know a person's birthday is about that person, not them.

 

She expressed her wishes (pho and a smoothie), he ignored them and did what HE wanted. I'm not her boyfriend and I could've given her a much better birthday from simply listening to her.

[somedude81]

To the men who are saying OP's boyfriend "isn't a mind reader", that's fair enough. But if you don't KNOW what your gf wants to do for her birthday (even though she said she wanted pho and a smoothie and he IGNORED her simple request) wouldn't you at least ask??

 

Her bf wasn't thinking of her at all. And idiot who has two brain cells would know a person's birthday is about that person, not them.

 

She expressed her wishes (pho and a smoothie), he ignored them and did what HE wanted. I'm not her boyfriend and I could've given her a much better birthday from simply listening to her.

That's why I gave her the Godzilla Facepalm.

 

I was able to see that her BF did a huge bonehead move. Last night was all about him.

 

He did the equivalent of buying her tools for himself to use.

[somedude81]

I

Anyway, his behaviour is not my concern here. It is how Phoe handles it all and where this relationship might lead to in the future that is worrying me.

 

Though the fact that she needs to vent (and therefore something about his reasoning keeps triggering her to vent) in itself is a good thing. She does not consider his behaviour normal. Yet.

That's a good point.

 

I'm saddened that she has to vent at all about him because that simply shouldn't be happening in such a young relationship. Though as you said, at least she is venting and realizes that something is wrong.

 

Hopefully these two will start to realize that they are not compatible and come to a mutual decision.

 

Once I got home I just felt so drained. I'd driven around town, looked a mess, hadn't showered, just felt yucky, had a pile of incomplete tasks from the day just looming over me, and was overall just having too much anxiety. I was shaking and felt sickly.

I just now realized the severity of your feelings.

 

Phoe, that is not a feeling that you should be getting for your boyfriend. Your body is telling you that something is wrong. Listen to it.

Edited May 6, 2014 by somedude81

[Leigh 87]

Crying regularly, feeling anxious and upset and on edge are NOT feelings a boyfriend should give you.

 

Look it IS black and white.

 

It doesn't matter HOW into you a guy "acts" initially, in fact, it doesn't MATTER if he truly does care about her.

 

 

His actions over the past few months have been completely unacceptable...

• Wanting to put money down on an engagement ring = RUN. It's been 5 MONTHS.
  
• The cuckolding thing and the way he introduced it = HUGE red flag. He lost his erection when she said she wasn't into it. He WOULD have done it had SHE given him the go ahead.
  
• breaking up with her for no good reason. Then coming back the next day or whatever, talking about marriage and stuff:sick:
  
• making Phoe do things that lead to her feeling sick with anxiety and stress
  
• expecting her to drop everything to come and collect him two towns away and then calling her a pain in the ass due to not wanting to hang out and get freakin FRIES.
  

To name but a FEW things this man has done that NO woman with a shred of self respect would tolerate. Phoe should have better self esteem since she sounds fabulous and is super cute! But she doesn't. No. Women with high self esteem know that can do BETTER.

Edited May 6, 2014 by Leigh 87

[Chocolat]

To the men who are saying OP's boyfriend "isn't a mind reader", that's fair enough. But if you don't KNOW what your gf wants to do for her birthday (even though she said she wanted pho and a smoothie and he IGNORED her simple request) wouldn't you at least ask??

 

Her bf wasn't thinking of her at all. And idiot who has two brain cells would know a person's birthday is about that person, not them.

 

She expressed her wishes (pho and a smoothie), he ignored them and did what HE wanted. I'm not her boyfriend and I could've given her a much better birthday from simply listening to her.

 

Plus, it doesn't take a mind reader to understand that if you take your gf out for a celebration and ask her to be the designated driver, she can't drink. So who is it a celebration for?

[somedude81]

I know I'm blowing up this thread, so this is my last post for a while.

 

Phoe, how do you think he would have reacted if once you got back home, that you called him and told him that you were feeling really drained and stressed, and just wanted to stay home?

[Leigh 87]

Yeah somedude, I am done here also blowing it up. I have tried my very best. She will still continue to remain convinced that this guy is so smitten with her and that they will remain very happy together. Because he does nice things for her which, quiet frankly, all decent men should do for their girlfriends.

 

To Phoe, a guy who takes her garbage out, comes and brings her soup when she is sick and who gives her back rubs and acts " really into her" is such a mean feat for her to have found that she simply believes that this is some holy grail of a relationship. It is sad. She can do better. His actions are NOT unlike MOST decent men.

 

It is just genuinely astounding that he didn't just offer to take her out to a nice restaurant like a normal person? WHY did he INSIST they have fries and play pool? Why continue to insist once she told him that she felt VERY uncomfortable getting out of the car with no make up or proper clothes on?

 

^^ it just isn't normal.

 

 

 

 

Good luck Phoe, he sounds like he may be into you but.. his behaviour shows he can be a prick all around no matter how he feels about a girl. I cannot see him changing his ways, no matter who he dates. I think he needs help, he has some very clear issues...to go from breaking up with you to talking marriage in a short time frame is not mentally sound.

 

I actually feel genuinely fearful at the thought of Phoe having his child:sick: I have never met Phoe in real life but I have genuine feelings surrounding the fact he wants to trap her into getting married and having his babies:sick:

[Phoe]

My mother once said to me "Your father doesn't clean much nor is he romantic but he has other quality's about him I loved I accepted the quality's he didnt have long ago I won't complain about the things hes not"

 

This is how I feel. He doesn't have every great quality out there, but he has many wonderful qualities, and I accept him for who he is.

 

I think that maybe Phoe is afraid that he'll leave her.

 

I do worry he will get sick of me and take off. It wouldn't surprise me, but I know at this point there's not much I can do to keep a man around if he truly does want to leave, so I won't worry my mind with things like that much anymore.

 

 

You should point blank tell him : Look, I did you a favour and drove miles to collect you when frankly I had a lot of cleaning to do. It's nice that you thought of my birthday but after spending money and time in coming to pick you up and do you a FAVOUR, you have SOME NERVE to then call me a pain in the ass when I DON'T WANT to go out and get fries.

 

Shortly after I gave him the silent treatment on the ride to drop him off at home, I did quickly say something to him. I said " I don't understand how you can be upset at me when I am incapable of dropping all my responsibilities last minute when I was under the impression I wouldn't see you at all today. I don't understand how you can be upset when I'm not prepared to go out to a bar without a seconds notice to at least be dressed and showered. How can you be upset at me for that?

 

 

I got no response. He continued being silent the rest of the way home until I finally told him I'd go home and get dressed.

 

 

Later, once we were inside the restaurant, I told him I appreciated what he did, but that I would have preferred to do it on Sunday so I could have been prepared and in the right mindset. We both are off next Sunday.

 

 

After I said this he rolled his eyes and dropped his head, clearly he still found me unappreciative so from that point on I dropped it and just tried to enjoy my night.

 

The sad thing about all this is that if Phoe just stood up for herself once in a while he'd end up treating her better and be MORE interested in her. But maybe she's just comfortable dealing with selfishness and abuse. =/

 

Every time people say this to me, I feel like I'm shouting from on top of a mountain, yet no one can hear me. I stand up to him ALL THE TIME. I am stubborn, I dig my heels in, and this is precisely why I'm a pain in the ass to him. I refused to move in with him. I refused to get engaged. I refused to participate in his cuckold fetish, and refused to accept him even talking about it in bed anymore. And that's just the bigger things. Little things? All the time. I get my way more often than he gets his way.

 

 

In this instance? He was attempting to do something for me and it was SO not worth it getting into a fight last night by acting unappreciative. Totally not worth it.

 

I'm a dude. I'm not a mind reader. and girls aren't easy, believe that!

Nor do i think he needs to apologise for getting it wrong - he's not a mind reader! He just needs to remember it next time and change tact! Show that he cares about getting it right!

 

 

I know he's no mind reader, it was just shocking because usually with stuff like this he's WONDERFUL and very thoughtful with the surprises. At this point I trusted him to give me a nice time for my birthday because all previous holidays and events he seemed perfectly capable and did a great job. This was out of the norm...

 

 

But. I'd mentioned twice in text yesterday how I was craving pho, but couldn't go get it because the pho place is 30 minutes away. And then on the way to get him, I told him I wanted to stop and get pho since we'd be driving past the place. He said OK. Once I got there he said "Instead of Pho, how about the bar?" I said I did not want to. From there on it just got all mucked up.

 

Her boyfriend has a cuckold fetish, which yes does sound extremely twisted. I can't imagine why he would possibly want that. A man who truly loves his partner should get sick with the thought of her with another man. Not actually get turned on by it.

 

His reaction's somewhat strange, a mixture of feeling nauseous while also being turned on. It's the act of being made jealous, of being made to feel inferior or degraded by seeing me do that with another man, that feeling is what turns him on. It's like in his heart he does not want to, but his penis really really wants to.

 

Except that Phoe isn't a Cappy (and I only knew this off the top of my head because I am one)

 

Two brutally strong signs. The desire to dig in the heels and fight to the death shall work in the capricorn's favor, unless Phoe learns some mind games to offset it.

 

This old goat 'won' every relationship battle put before me. (And ended up alone ) The only hope was a Pisces, and it took me till the age of fifty to even meet one!

 

Have you done any readings, Phoe? If not for prediction of the furniture, but at least to learn some ways of dealing with him?

 

Yep, Taurus and Cappy are rough. We both dig in our heels. Between the both of us we both know we have to stop and think about what is and isn't worth being stubborn for in that instant. Often times he is the one to back down. Of course, those moments don't get mentioned here, because they're just run of the mill moments.

 

 

I've done a little reading, but I don't think I've done enough.

 

Phoe, how do you think he would have reacted if once you got back home, that you called him and told him that you were feeling really drained and stressed, and just wanted to stay home?

 

 

Had I flip flopped and flaked after I'd already said I'd be coming back, things would've just gotten worse.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Something I was thinking about while laying in bed last night, was how he was the first person to ever do something for me on my birthday (other than my parents)

 

 

He actually remembered it, and actually did something for me. Thats more than anyone else has ever done.

 

 

When I was school age, my birthday was something that just came and went. My parents would say "happy birthday" and I might get a special dinner and my mom would bake a cake. Simple, it's what I was raised to expect. No parties, no special trips, just another day.

 

 

Once I was 19 in college, everyone was like "WTF? You've never had a full birthday celebration? We must change that!"

 

 

So the week of my birthday, my friends all made plans with me. I was gonna go do stuff, breakfast lunch and dinner were all covered, there'd be drinks, it was gonna be a fantastic day.

 

 

My birthday arrived and everyone either forgot or had to cancel on me. It turned into another normal day. I went to school, came home and watched TV, then went to bed.

 

 

My 20th birthday was the same. Cancelled plans. There was a fire about 20 miles away and my friends freaked out and all drove back to their hometowns and left me alone for the night. Since I had nothing else to do, I spent my 20th in a cat shelter helping take in abandoned cats from people being evacuated for the fire.

 

 

For my 21st, I finally had a celebration. My parents took me to Vegas for a show and dinner. I was SO thrilled.

 

 

22nd, once again I was forgotten, but this time I hadn't bothered trying to make plans with anyone. I knew it was pointless. I spent the day in bed crying. My family forgot. I got no phone calls. I received 2 texts from old friends.

 

 

23rd and 24th I don't even remember. I treated them like normal days most likely, just went about my life as usual, pretty much was completely over having a birthday.

 

 

But this year? My 25th? Someone actually tried. Someone remembered. And while it wasn't what I wanted and not WHEN I wanted, it still means a lot to me. He thought of me. He didn't forget.

[Zahara]

But this year? My 25th? Someone actually tried. Someone remembered. And while it wasn't what I wanted and not WHEN I wanted, it still means a lot to me. He thought of me. He didn't forget.

 

Then what was the need in creating this thread? When everyone forgot, he remembered. If what he did meant a lot to you regardless of your needs, I am not sure the motive in creating this thread.