badkarma2013 Posted April 25, 2014 Posted April 25, 2014 One other thing....again only 15-20% of BH ever R.....80-85% file for D I did horrific damage to OM when i outed him to his BW...I threated a lawsuit against the company they worked for...they Both lost their jobs....His BW financially destroyed him in his D. NONE OF THIS MATTERED...when the OM can to my office and showed me pictures of my ExW doing sexual acts she said were Disgusting to her for 22 years and worse..... The images still dance in my head to this day. I REALIZED WHAT SHE HAD BECOME AND HAD DONE...THERE WAS NO COMING BACK.
Author Maiq Posted May 3, 2014 Author Posted May 3, 2014 (edited) Guys, Thank you for all the replies. I know I haven't even finished writing the story, but I will get to it and reply to your messages as soon as I can. I'm thankful for all the advice, from both sides. I don't feel like there's a huge rush to make any moves (thankfully). I think I want to give my emotions some time to settle before making a decision, that way I can do it with a calm and collected mind. I haven't felt much pain or anger or sadness since my first post. And so, while I still owe you all a lot of answers, I'd like to ask another question first. I almost feel emotionally numb. I don't know if I just got used to the huge swings between angry/sad/hate/love, but now I feel like there's not much in me at all. This isn't in that guide for WS's, so I'd like to hear what you have to say about it. I don't think that I'm falling out of love (I don't want to be), but this week I've found that I don't have strong feelings either way anymore. No triggers, no crying, no fear.. Not particularly happy or sad or excited about anything, but not really in a zombie state either. I would almost describe this as just plain "normal." On a separate note, I almost feel like I actually am dating someone else. She looks different, she acts different (more like when we first started dating - sparkly eyed, loving, caring, fresh), and strangely even her voice sounds different to me. I want to write so much more, but I feel like I must do something productive, so I will either go work out or wash a car or pick classes for next semester. Thanks again, everyone. I'll try and finish the story sometime soon. Edited May 3, 2014 by Maiq
suckerpunch55 Posted May 4, 2014 Posted May 4, 2014 It is early days for me, only about a month or so, we have both decided we would lose more by divorcing than staying together. The pain though is so, so intense, I'm having to force myself to stop thinking about my wife's affair and everything that entails, the emotional and physical aspects, the deceit and the betrayal. But we can only try, who knows what the future holds for us both. 1
revelations Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 Maiq: I would encourage you to leave her. From what it sounds like to me this is your first love and of course it seems like the only one you will ever love. However in order for her to do what she did their had to be a few things going on. One is that she had zero respect for you or the relationship, after all if she did have respect then she could not have done this. Two is that she chose this other guy over you at that time. No matter how people want to sugar coat it, the fact is that she wanted him over you at that time. Does this still sound like the woman that your in love with? Please allow me to be blunt and lay this out for you. Tell me if these are some of the things you are thinking about or feeling right now after she has been with this other guy. Is he bigger than me? Did she enjoy the sex more with him? Did she have an orgasm? Did she think of me during the love making? Does she think of him when making love to me? How often does she think of him? Will she cheat again? How much did she enjoy being with him? You can probably add another thousand questions to this list, and let me tell you they do not fade over time. Trying to stay with her means that you will always feel second best to this OM. To be blunt you are second best to the OM. Let's face it, he was able to bang your girlfriend. He was able to convince your girlfriend to spread her legs for him. She chose to allow this other man to place his penis deep inside of her, and give her pleasure. Don't be fooled, she did not just lay their saying "get it over with already". She held him, pushed back with each thrust, kissed him, and held him after he had spent his load. The passion that she shared with him is something that you will never be able to provide for her nor compete with. The reason is because he was forbidden fruit. Being forbidden fruit adds a whole new layer of excitement and lust to the situation. When she makes love to you, the moans are because she is thinking of that one time lustful thing she did with OM. Okay yes I am painting you the worse picture possible for your situation. Their is a reason for it and that reason is I don't want to see you wreck your life. I was exactly like you, I wanted to believe the best in my woman. I am here to tell you that even if they do not take advantage of that, the fact that she cheated will forever scar you. Leave her and free yourself from a life of self-doubt. Don't be married to her and 20yrs from now be wondering about what happened now. Don't torment yourself by being married to her and wondering what she is doing on her girls night out. Finish up your collage, get yourself a good job and save your money. By the time your in your 30's you will have nice women that are in their 20's and hot looking wanting to date you. If you feel that you have to marry then by this time you will have your pick. However you may chose to do the smart thing and not marry and just have fun with these gals. Look up the laws on what you will loose when you marry. Did you know that this girlfriend that cheated on you know can do if your married to her? She could go get pregnant by the OM, come back home and brag to you about it. Then divorce you, get alimony and child support for the OM's kid. Does this sound like something you would want to have happen to you? Okay don't believe me, however I would encourage you to look up the laws. You will find that what I say is correct. I would encourage you to never marry, however if you must marry then do it with anyone else except this woman. She has already proven to be a cheater, anyone woman out their has something going for them that your girlfriend does not. And that is you can give them trust, because they have not proven to you that they are untrustworthy. Your girlfriend has proven to be untrustworthy. I really hope you heed my advice and leave this woman. You do not want to become like me. At your age I would see other couples and think how sweet they look together. Now I do not see them that way, I wonder about how much the guy has put up with. I see a couple and think, I wonder how many times she has cheated on him. I do not see couples and feel envy for the guy, I actually feel sad for him. You may say that I have a negative view on marriage and couples and I would have to agree with you. I have that perspective because of what has happened to me from trying to be the nice guy like you are right now. Lay down your boundaries and stick to them. If your in a relationship and one of your boundaries is no banging another guy then stick with it and leave her. Heck some guys are okay with their girlfriends or wife banging another guy, that is fine for them just not for me. To me it sounds like that your really not the type of guy who wants to let his girlfriend or wife bang other guys. Their is nothing wrong with that at all, it is who you are. So by staying with her not only will you have the memories of her passionate night with the OM. You will not trust yourself because you did not take any action to protect yourself. If you marry her and she cheats again, you will be angry with yourself because you missed the clear warning sign. You will think back to my words wishing that you had listened to my warning. Please do not follow my path, instead be wise and listen to my words and leave her. Trust me you will have no shortage of women. I actually get laid more divorced than I did when I was married. Just don't throw your life away with this woman, you are worth more than that. Your a good person, protect that, know that you deserve better than her. 1
Darren Steez Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 Need to hear more. Did she confess? Did she write a time line of when the cheating happened? You said there was a fingering session then the humongous sex. You don't need to be graphic, just the specifics. You said they lived together, where does she live now? Where is OM? As for all the "You can open up my heart and see there's only you" I wouldn't buy into that so much. Clearly there was a lot leading up to the actually cheating (her doing more and more with OM) she actually didn't care whether you got mad she was doing all this stuff because it would have been too much work, she already knew what she wanted, so the disconnect happened. She detached. Again would like more of the actual story. oh you think they only did it once and they were living together?
fellini Posted May 5, 2014 Posted May 5, 2014 (edited) Guys, Thank you for all the replies. I know I haven't even finished writing the story, but I will get to it and reply to your messages as soon as I can. I'm thankful for all the advice, from both sides. I don't feel like there's a huge rush to make any moves (thankfully). I think I want to give my emotions some time to settle before making a decision, that way I can do it with a calm and collected mind. I haven't felt much pain or anger or sadness since my first post. And so, while I still owe you all a lot of answers, I'd like to ask another question first. I almost feel emotionally numb. I don't know if I just got used to the huge swings between angry/sad/hate/love, but now I feel like there's not much in me at all. This isn't in that guide for WS's, so I'd like to hear what you have to say about it. I don't think that I'm falling out of love (I don't want to be), but this week I've found that I don't have strong feelings either way anymore. No triggers, no crying, no fear.. Not particularly happy or sad or excited about anything, but not really in a zombie state either. I would almost describe this as just plain "normal." On a separate note, I almost feel like I actually am dating someone else. She looks different, she acts different (more like when we first started dating - sparkly eyed, loving, caring, fresh), and strangely even her voice sounds different to me. I want to write so much more, but I feel like I must do something productive, so I will either go work out or wash a car or pick classes for next semester. Thanks again, everyone. I'll try and finish the story sometime soon. I see this original thread came out some time ago... I am a BS whose wife had a 2 year EA/PA with a co-worker. We are one year into reconciliation. There are a lot of things to say, Im not sure even at this point where you are in this, other than early. I followed the advice of Shirley Glass (Not just Friends) and declared a 3 month moratorium on decision making. In your case, you seem to have already decided the ending of the process, and perhaps that is part of the issue. I agree with you the desire to stay is strong, and that's great, but I had, as I learned day by day, week by week, the truth of my wifes relationship - it was a relationship strong enough that I don't always refer to it as an affair - made me rethink or question just how much of this I really was going to be able to stand. Okay so three months the emotions are still quite raw, and yes, sometimes I would open my eyes and ask myself, who is this woman looking at me. For triggers and intrusions (I distinguish triggers as those things which set off almost every time a memory based on information she told you about their affair. Intrusions, for me the absolutely hardest part (sometimes referred to here as mind movies) at night, watching TV, anytime. My intrusions consisted of a) visualising the two of them having sex (with or without me in the room "seeing it") b) little plays in which I imagine myself catching them at any point in the duration of the affair to stop them. c) alternative scripts to the ones I live with, being able to change outcomes, etc. (search for power) One year later I still have intrusions, although they are much much less frequent and much less elaborate as I catch myself running them and stop them now. Emotions. This has not changed. The trauma I experienced from discovery has made me an emotional wreck of sorts. I cannot watch even TV shows like "undercover boss" or "Kitchen Nightmares" or even Love it or list it without mostly having tears streaming. I tend to watch Bruce Willis or Jason Stratham films as anything remotely romantic comedy / drama can be too hard. Sometimes I deliberately revisit movies about infidelity just to get through it. Things I learned about my WS. Trickle truthing me for 8 months was very hard. So many times I wanted just to give it all up and walk away. It's really hard when the person responsible for destroying your world isn't helping you by meeting your demands for full details. What killed me is she told me in the first days the details I needed about when, where and how they met for sex, without me knowing, but then trickle truthed me on much more insignificant details like when was the first kiss (I already know they have oral sex and she lies about this detail), lies about who said what, etc. I learned that a WS isn't always as ready as we think to reveal the depths of their indignant behaviour as we might think. I used self hypnosis mp3's that I bought online for helping me with strong trigger days. There are a couple online just for infidelity recovery. Like you, I went through a phase when I wondered where my feelings went for my WS. I remember a phase way back in which I said to her "I feel nothing for you, not hate, not love" I felt I was losing all my feelings. It passed. But now, one year later, I am going through another phase. I am not able to tell her "I love you" it just won't come out right. I cannot easily say it. This morning I was able to say, "I love you too" for the first time in weeks. Lastly, Ill say, you mentioned reconciliation in your post. I don't think it's necessarily that time yet. I started with a) discovery period. finding out what happened, and gathering information on how to deal with an infidelity (during the 3 months of Glass' DONT DECIDE) This is also a period I prefer to call RECOVERY - for both the WS and the BS. b) Forgiveness. The WS has to forgive the affair they had, and the BS needs to try an initial forgiveness but this is just forgiving that the affair happened, that you want to move forward, you want to put it behind you somehow. It's not all there is to forgiveness c) Deeper forgiveness/Reconciliation. This is for me when reconciliation can actually occur, and it is where we are now. Ill leave you with this incredible article on forgiveness. It is a mind blower! https://www.affairrecovery.com/newsletter/founder/cost-of-forgiving-infidelity I haven't read anything as good. Happy to work through your reconciliation process if you wish. Edited May 5, 2014 by fellini 1
suckerpunch55 Posted May 6, 2014 Posted May 6, 2014 Yes I've thought of everything you mentioned, and more. I wish there was a correct way of doing this, do I ask her right out about every single thing? I don't think she's the type of woman who would be comfortable doing that. hoping that these questions bugging me every single minute of every single day go away in time.
fellini Posted May 7, 2014 Posted May 7, 2014 Yes I've thought of everything you mentioned, and more. I wish there was a correct way of doing this, do I ask her right out about every single thing? I don't think she's the type of woman who would be comfortable doing that. hoping that these questions bugging me every single minute of every single day go away in time. On the morning after DDay I asked my WS to write me a timeline of everything that went on about the affair. She said she would do it. We are in month 13 and that timeline never appeared. I should have been more insistent, because had she written it, it would have been more difficult to lie to me during 8 months of discussion. She said at some point, "it's not my approach". Well anyway. Not getting that timeline meant she could continuously add and rearrange things. I really wish I had had her put down on paper the map. Something we could always come back to. I remember using a kind of set of questions I got from either Glass or Kirshenbaum, where the idea is I ask specific questions without any emotional response (When did it start, how, who kissed who, then what happened, what happend next, when did the sex start, where, what days) and she answered them all. No fighting, no tears, no abusive "you friggin whore". Just took notes. This was in week 3 or 4 By month 9 I learned that even with that she wasn't able to come clean. SO I learned that the BS is not an open book necessarily. It's understandable. In the end she told me the whole reason that she hid those things was because she didn't want to admit to me that she actively went for this guy, that it wasn't something he started. 9 months for her to admit the first kiss was her idea, her invitation to him to come up to her office, close the door and kiss, before Easter holidays, on the day we celebrated our wedding anniversary dinner. (Im like WTF? I already know a week later he had oral sex with you and later we had sex at home, and you want to hide a first kiss!!!!) So I don't put too much faith in disclosure, but nor do I take withholding a detail as some kind of massive new betrayal that ends the R process. It's all part of the game. I didn't ask about the physical sex at all. I told her I didn't want to know. But at one point she blurted out that he had testosterone problems. So that kind of left me with no alternative than to imagine what their sex was like. Ask yourself what it is you really must know, in order to move forward. The physical stuff is painful. Try to keep it down to must know stuff. And if what you need to know are "the why's" the reasons, the "what were you thinking", im afraid that those answers are completely hit and miss. We spent sooooo many months just trying to figure out the "meaning" of her affair. I was a huge waste of my emotional life and really hurt our timeline for working on more important things. But I do think its important to know WHAT KIND OF AFFAIR (or which affair types) she was engaged in. Some of them require slightly different approaches to the information requirements. 1
harrybrown Posted May 7, 2014 Posted May 7, 2014 (edited) I agree, have her write you a timeline of the affair. She should get working on it right now. She was comfortable cheating on you with OM and she should be more than comfortable writing the explicit timeline of when and what happened and what she thought. Did she ever think about you? Edited May 7, 2014 by harrybrown edit 1
drifter777 Posted May 7, 2014 Posted May 7, 2014 The nitty-gritty sexual details are very important to some BH's. Knowing what they actually did can help eliminate some of the truly disgusting things they imagine they did. The other thing it can do is help the BH believe she is truly being open and honest about everything. The BH must be forewarned that he cannot un-hear whatever she tells him so be sure this is what you need. Point is that the physical details are not always a waste of you emotional life.
RightThere Posted May 7, 2014 Posted May 7, 2014 Like you, I went through a phase when I wondered where my feelings went for my WS. I remember a phase way back in which I said to her "I feel nothing for you, not hate, not love" I felt I was losing all my feelings. It passed. But now, one year later, I am going through another phase. I am not able to tell her "I love you" it just won't come out right. I cannot easily say it. This morning I was able to say, "I love you too" for the first time in weeks. I think I'm right in between these phases right now. I really feel very little for my WS right now. If it wasn't for our daughter, I doubt I would have much of an emotional connection to anything. It almost feels like I'm back in the "rut" parts of our marriage, but I can see it and don't care that we are. 1
Jonah Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 The basic teaching its to drop the storyline, not to follow the thread. The reason you keep following the train is that it gives you a short lived relief by self justification. Yes, you were right and she was wrong. You both agree. Try meditation, yoga -the training of your mind. Splitting up won't help by the way, this problem resides within, and that it where you need to go instead of following the storyline. The more you scratch, the more you will bleed. You are bleeding everywhere. stop scratching and you will begin to heal. Enjoy your journey my friend.
Jonah Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 I agree, have her write you a timeline of the affair. She should get working on it right Did she ever think about you? Oh you know she did. Especially while having sex. What would be the right answer? Think we all know what sex is. Is there any remaining questions?
Jonah Posted May 8, 2014 Posted May 8, 2014 The nitty-gritty sexual details are very important to some BH's. Knowing what they actually did can help eliminate some of the truly disgusting things they imagine they did. The other thing it can do is help the BH believe she is truly being open and honest about everything. The BH must be forewarned that he cannot un-hear whatever she tells him so be sure this is what you need. Point is that the physical details are not always a waste of you emotional life. And you would have time for that drivel? If the point is proving that it is a moot point then yeah I suppose you are right.
Author Maiq Posted May 14, 2014 Author Posted May 14, 2014 Here's the rest of the story, continued from post #10 Sorry if this is messy. I wrote this together quickly and haven't even re-read what I've written yet. Consider this a first draft. --- So she moved into my buddy's place around August/September 2013. Everything was cool at first. We all hung out together all the time and it was a lot of fun. There were a few trips that they took together where I couldn't go because of work/school. I figured there was no reason to stop her from once-in-a-lifetime experiences (trip to fancy place. backstage with famous band, etc) just because I wasn't available. But in January, it was obvious something was changing. We both started acting colder to each other. She stopped wanting me to come over, and I stopped replying to all her messages. When she did ask me to hang out, I was too busy re-organizing my room/garage and didn't visit. She never came to visit me either unless I picked her up first In Februrary, we went bigger blocks of time without talking. We did talk about the usual, everyday stuff (when we did talk). We even talked about each others' valentines day gifts. And THIS is when she cheated on me (details below). 3/12 was D-Day. ---- As for the cheating timeline… I know she was unhappy for many months beforehand. I was always too busy doing my own thing to give her proper attention. At some point before D-Day (don't remember when), I stole her chat log with him. She still doesn't know I have it to this day. There's very little in there, and nothing about the actual act, but there are little things that are obviously not okay. The earliest the emotional part of the affair would have started is around October/November 2013. I don't even know if you could call it an affair, really. It was just her seeking relationship advice / complaining to a friend back then. She has no family members or close friends that she can lean on, and he was the only person she could chat with about that kind of thing. There was no "love" or anything like that between them this early on. So, the TV/Xbox/etc was in her room, so we all would hang out in there. She told me they started cuddling in bed / lying down together, but I'm not sure when. Probably January or February. Maybe sooner than that...? I don't know if he ever slept with her or if she ever slept with him. I know she slept in his bed, but it sounds like it was without him. On 1/13 or 1/14, he gave her a back massage (topless with oil), but she says he didn't get to see anything frontside. 1/21 They stayed at Tahoe together, but it was with his mom. She says they had separate beds and everything, but I need to double check if anything happened. I'm pretty sure they were already sexually open with each other at least verbally. I'm assuming that some messing around had already happened, at least clothes on. By Feb/Mar she was already paying for things and buying him gifts and such.. something she'd never done for me. She wanted to hang out with him exclusively and leave me at home. There's a big chunk of log missing from 2/3 to 2/12. She says he fingered her on superbowl (the 3rd), and that it was terrible and she felt guilty and so on. She says they finally had sex a week or two after. It was the middle of the day, and he went into her room, pulled off her pants and went at it. She said she hid her face the entire time and only felt guilty and miserable. She cried as she told me this, telling me he was too rough and now she understands how loving and gentle I am. She said they did it for a long time, him putting her in all kinds of positions and having his way with her until he finally stuffed it down her throat and she was forced to swallow it all. I think his mom found out (they lived at his mom's place), because she left a 30-day eviction notice on her door on the 15th. On Valentines day (day before getting kicked out, and probably just a few days after she f*cked him) I promised her I'd turn things around and be the boyfriend she deserved. We did a bunch of good stuff, but I also told her I needed her and him to back off each other. She bitched about me to him THAT DAY, while we were still together! She was defending their friendship and complaining about me pressuring them, when OBVIOUSLY I was in the right. How did I find out? She left her chat open on my computer, and I got home after dropping her off and found out that she had lied to my face. I stormed back to her place, took her out on a walk, and nearly broke up with her. But we decided to stay together and make things work. I still didn't know she had cheated on me - I only knew that she was betraying my trust about things I had said. They were still "best friends" for a month past that. She says she tried to forget what she did and that wanted to take the secret with her to her grave. D-Day wouldn't come for another month. I was growing more and more suspicious and agitated during that month. Finally, when I told her I was going to have a talk with him and tell him to back off, she warned him and he chickened out and said he didn't want to be friends with us anymore. I was pissed. I told her that she couldn't do that kind of thing behind my back. We needed to be unified if our relationship would ever work. I had lectured her about this several times over the prior weeks, and she had sworn to me that nothing was happening between them. In other words, she had been lying to me for over two months. I knew there were secrets, but I didn't know how bad things had gotten. Over the next few weeks, there was no contact, primarily held up by him. He left stuff outside for us to pick up every so often. On 3/12, after picking up a load of stuff from his porch, I finally got the truth out of her. She only told me about superbowl initially, but after telling her she had to tell me EVERYTHING and reassuring her that I wasn't going to beat her ass, I got the entire truth out of her. Of course, I was devastated. But I let her sweat the entire day while I decided what to do. I've still never told her that I forgive her for what she's done. I'm glad I didn't say it in the heat of the moment, because I don't think it will EVER be okay. NC has been going strong for two months now. It's hard to talk to her about details of the past, so I only force them out of her when I have a breakdown myself. This makes recovery VERY difficult for me. More on this later. Gotta go pick her up from work. Thanks, everybody. ALL of your posts are amazingly helpful.
Author Maiq Posted May 22, 2014 Author Posted May 22, 2014 It's been two months + a week since d-day (3/12). Once again. time seems to be moving a lot slower than it feels. I think my top priorities right now are to keep reading Glass' book, and to put together a list of questions. I ran the idea by her about having her answer a list of questions about the affair. She likes the idea of writing them down so she can explain them better. She's always been truthful, honest, and forthcoming about anything I ask, and she's 100% behind anything that could make me feel better. Even though I've heard most of it verbally (though I'm sure she left out a LOT of information), I think it'll be helpful to have all the gruesome details written down. -- As far as my emotions... Numbness is still the dominant feeling.. or rather, lack thereof. It's almost like I don't really care about anything, positive or negative. I feel bad because she tries SO HARD, EVERY DAY to make me happy. Practically every single moment that we're together is her trying to make me happy / cheer me up, whether it's by planning activities or bringing me a glass of water or standing with me while I cook dinner in the kitchen. In the first month or two, I was happy about everything. I was always so glad to have her back. I don't know if that's worn off now or what. It's not like I dislike anything. It's just that I don't feel as excited or passionate anymore - and that goes for pretty much everything in life. I'm just not really that motivated to do the things I used to love. We do a lot more of the things that she loves, and on the rare occasion that I do feel like doing something, we do my thing instead. Sometimes I am genuinely happy. I'll feel contentment holding hands while we walk around, or I'll just forget about everything else and be absorbed in whatever we're doing (video games, tv, shopping, eating..). I guess I'm just waiting for normalcy to come back into my life. The basic teaching its to drop the storyline, not to follow the thread. The reason you keep following the train is that it gives you a short lived relief by self justification. Yes, you were right and she was wrong. You both agree. Try meditation, yoga -the training of your mind. Splitting up won't help by the way, this problem resides within, and that it where you need to go instead of following the storyline. The more you scratch, the more you will bleed. You are bleeding everywhere. stop scratching and you will begin to heal. Enjoy your journey my friend. I think this is the key. But I can't just bury it with so many questions and unknowns in my head. I don't know if the written questions/answers will really make me feel better, but if I can satisfy my mind, maybe it will be easier to walk this way. Ill leave you with this incredible article on forgiveness. It is a mind blower! https://www.affairrecovery.com/newsletter/founder/cost-of-forgiving-infidelity This was a good article. Thanks for this, and for your posts. It's comforting to see someone else going through the same steps/phases that I am. I hope that I don't go through the same trickle truth thing that you have. I think the written questions thing will work out. I do want all the nasty thoughts and details from her, just so that my imagination stops making things worse. Then again, my worst imaginations before D-Day were spot on, so I guess it's a case of "be careful what you [ask] for." Okay, I gotta sleep. Sorry my posts are always messy and incomplete. Next time I'll read through all the replies again and see there are any outstanding questions.
fellini Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 (edited) I just read your last post, and Ill tell you something about this questioning approach. I don't know your woman to say the least. So here is what happened to me. I did the Glass thing of writing some important questions down, and sitting down with my WS and doing the whole Glass, impartial, no emotion, don't judge, just ask and note. It was GREAT. I felt like FINALLY we are getting it all out. SHORT TRIP to this POST: MORE LIES! She hide the simple stupid detail of WHO asked WHOM up to WHOSE office for a KISS. Simple questions, right out of Glass. And she still lied about the answers. Now understand this: I have already read, and she knows I have read, an email where she talks about his testosterone issues telling him not to worry, just focus on finding her G spot. This I have. And she is lying to me about their first kiss!!! She lies more about the frequency of their visits, about the places they sat and talked, about the places they met to embrace, about the coffees: all the while I already know about his mouth in her. So don't be thinking that the questions you think you are asking are the questions she thinks she is giving. My WS wanted nothing more than to hide her AGGRESSIVE role in pursuing her AP. Another thing were the massive and numerous lies about her current emotional state of where her heart was. DONT BOTHER GOING THERE. If your woman was IN LOVE with her AP then she has work to do. Do NOT believe that throwing someone "under the bus" means, by any means, that it is over. I will summarise by saying: a) I think it is a technical error to describe what you are doing as Reconciliation. First we must RECOVER. Then we can RECONCILE. You are not recovered if you are still in trauma over the discovery of the affair. You are only in reconciliation if you have understood the impact of the affair, and now wish to rebuild something with her. Recovery, however, is never complete. If you wait until you are "RECOVERED" you will never get there. But do not attempt reconciliation too QUICKLY while you are still in a state of emotional impact from the discovery. Moving to reconciliation too quickly (which it seems you and I have both done) is like giving forgiveness to soon. By demonstrating reconciliation too soon, the WS get's to interpret the situation completely differently. The panic of losing you switches to the panic of hiding as much about the affair as possible so as not lose you over the details. To put it very simple for you: It didnt matter that I explained to my WS more than 20 times the importance of FULL DISCLOSURE to every QUESTION I asked. It didnt matter that we READ GLASS TOGETHER, we read Glass, we read Kirshenbaum, we read two volumes of Langley, we read a sh-t load of material and all of it said how important telling the honest truth was, and how THIS TELLING WAS THE SUREST WAY TO HEALING. She STILL friggin lied to me knowing all of that! I sat down with her one night in a nice bar, with nice red wine, and said to her as nicely as I could possibly put it, that all I wanted from her was a deep truth from now on. A truth so deep that just saying it reveals itself to be undeniably true. Like when someone says "I love you" in such a way that you know it cannot be anything but that. She said she understood my desire. And how doing that would set US FREE from doubts. Understood. Two months later she told me she was torn and was still having feelings for her AP.... two months of denial, two months of "deep untruths". Only finally literally calling a one month STRUCTURE SEPARATION did she finally start to do the work she needed to do to deal with her issues with him instead of smoothering me with Im sooooo sorry.. My heart this my heart that, I can't believe what I have done to you, blah blah blah. She doesnt just need to work on smoothing you over, she needs to ask the HARD HARD questions about HER VALUES, how SHE GOT to WHERE SHE GOT TO. This is not the same thing as owning up to WHAT she had done, it's about knowing herself more. b) For this reason remain open. I too sought the Reconciliation route. But things are not so neat and tidy. You are going to be on a roller coaster and flip flopping in your mind. Even today, 13 months post DDAY, I have days where I am ending our marriage and not ending it 3 or 4 times a day. c) Getting the details is a personal issue, and I'm not sure why you want to know on which day he fingered her, with which finger, for how long, did she cum, how many times, did she scream... sh-t like that is not going to help me get through this - to each his own. I didn't ask to know about his testosterone issue, she blurted it out, and doing so set off a whole slew of images and nightmares I did NOT WANT TO HAVE. d) Getting past the affair is one thing. Then, for me, and this is where I am now: The question is not about her, it is about ME. Do I want to stay married to this woman is not about trusting her (I will trust her), it is about living with knowing what I have become, the kind of person I now am that I do not wish to be, and if this is how I want to feel for the rest of our time together. So when I say I have these urges to leave, it's because of me, my head, my emotions, NOT SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE OF THE DETAILS OF HER AFFAIR. Ill stop there for now. Edited May 22, 2014 by fellini
Man Mountain Makino Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 (edited) This type of stuff is why I am generally against reconciliation, because the hurt party invariably has to put in much more work and effort over an extended period of time, while the return on the investment likely won't ever be as good as the relationship was when it was at its best. It's just inefficient. One party puts more energy in and odds are they won't get any more out of the effort. I also read that you're both young and unmarried. Two more reasons to bail on the relationship now. A clean slate with a new companion avoids all this. Edited May 22, 2014 by Man Mountain Makino
A.Moscote Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 I ran the idea by her about having her answer a list of questions about the affair. She likes the idea of writing them down so she can explain them better. She's always been truthful, honest, and forthcoming about anything I ask, and she's 100% behind anything that could make me feel better. Tell her, it's not just about making you feel better, but also for her sake, to help her recover. Right now it sounds like she's trying so hard to please you and to suddenly flip herself around without much time to recover. Show her fellini's story, about how 9 months after their dday, his wife's true openness paved the way for real reconciliation (is it ok, or right, fellini?). Tell her you can brace through all that, and be considerate towards every single details in her mind. At the same time, show your appreciations on her effort, and reciprocate just as much to comfort her. 1
fellini Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 Tell her, it's not just about making you feel better, but also for her sake, to help her recover. Right now it sounds like she's trying so hard to please you and to suddenly flip herself around without much time to recover. Show her fellini's story, about how 9 months after their dday, his wife's true openness paved the way for real reconciliation (is it ok, or right, fellini?). Tell her you can brace through all that, and be considerate towards every single details in her mind. At the same time, show your appreciations on her effort, and reciprocate just as much to comfort her. Yes of course. The worst part of having to fight 9 months to get to a point of truth was by then my WS couldn't "do it anymore". Imagine stonewalling someone for 9 months and then, just when you are at a point that you think you can tell the truth, you demand that the interrogation stops. Enough is enough. ... it's a very unfair approach to take for a WS who is supposed to be doing "whatever it takes" to make amends. One shouldn't have to point out that "whatever it takes" took 9 months to begin. More importantly for the OP I want you to understand that I was CONVINCED that she was telling me the truth, that she was telling me the truth! This is not the same thing as 9 months of avoidance, resistance. This is 9 months of false testimony in order to hide the truth. 1
DasPope Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 I'm living in plan b right now ... Its still fresh raw and painful and yes you do get upset and angry about little things. But ...if you really love each other its a small price to pay for staying together. It gets better ... It really does.
harrybrown Posted May 22, 2014 Posted May 22, 2014 has she been tested for stds and is she expecting?
DasPope Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 The nitty-gritty sexual details are very important to some BH's. Knowing what they actually did can help eliminate some of the truly disgusting things they imagine they did. The other thing it can do is help the BH believe she is truly being open and honest about everything. The BH must be forewarned that he cannot un-hear whatever she tells him so be sure this is what you need. Point is that the physical details are not always a waste of you emotional life. I have a complete block about this .... I want to know ... But I don't want to know. I have been unable even in counselling sessions to raise the issue with my wife even though in one on one sessions with me my counsellor recommends that I do so. It's easily the biggest remaining issue that I'm carrying around.
fellini Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 I have a complete block about this .... I want to know ... But I don't want to know. I have been unable even in counselling sessions to raise the issue with my wife even though in one on one sessions with me my counsellor recommends that I do so. It's easily the biggest remaining issue that I'm carrying around. I know this feeling too. I already know some things (the AP couldn't get hard because of testosterone problems) and so to ask for more details... I think there is a difference between what goes on in our heads (I want to know.... I don't want to know) and externalizing that. I'm not sure GETTING that information will eliminate anything. If I ask, for example, how she tried to get him hard. And if (not that she will!) she tells me? Then what? Maybe I want to know how she blew him? Am I gong to ask her to show me? Am I going to ask her about whether she talked to him about his penis? Him about her vagina? What he did with his tongue? How many fingers he used? Where does it end? And on the OTHER side of getting all this "information"? What is waiting for me on the other side of this exercise: a completely humiliated and depraved woman? Someone who now hates me for putting her through that. Someone who was doing everything I asked, to show me she loved me, and then I debase her with this request? And then I tell her, wow, if you did those things to him I want nothing more to do with you... Asking a women (or a man) to share intimate details about making love to another person seems, on this level to be rather grotesque. And if we add on to this some kind of justification that it's a TEST for "truth telling", pffff. I do not want to be that man. I will admit I entertained these ideas. And when I asked myself about this, getting details as a test, I realised that the real issue is there was nothing else to test about her that she was not already coming clean on, and I was looking for more dirt to pull from her. She had SEX. They were forced to do it without penetration. I don't need a confession to know what that means. I have made love to the same woman for 17 years. Im pretty sure I know where he has been, and her too. My only job is to either put it behind me, or decide to leave or stay knowing these thoughts continue to haunt me and may or may not end one day.
drifter777 Posted May 23, 2014 Posted May 23, 2014 I have a complete block about this .... I want to know ... But I don't want to know. I have been unable even in counselling sessions to raise the issue with my wife even though in one on one sessions with me my counsellor recommends that I do so. It's easily the biggest remaining issue that I'm carrying around. You say "block" but I think its just that ou are not ready to make the decision about this yet. I do urge you to actually make a decision about how much you need to know when it becomes important to you instead of rug-sweeping on this. Details mean different things to different BH's and ranges from "when/where/how many" to "what did he do to you? What did you do to him" complete with every intimate detail. Your WW should provide answers to whatever you think you need to know.
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