Spectre Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 Ugh. Do you really believe this? Just when I thought I was doing well ... well, this stinks. One of the "tips" I picked up here on LS many mos ago was reframing how you think about xAP. I stopped thinking of him as funny, sexy and talented at our shared hobby/interest. I began to think of him as a scumbag. While never losing sight of my own poor behavior and boundaries, I reminded myself he made a fool of my H, that he probably just wanted to get one over on my H due to his own insecurity and jealousy of H. This really helped me think of him as scum. It still does. Does that mean I am emotionally invested in my former A? I don't think so. No I wouldn't say you are emotionally invested. I mean, it's not like you go sit down every day for an hour and just stew about how much of a scumbag you think this guy is. That is the thing, it's not something that is necessarily taking up any emotional space in you.
Furious Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 Ugh. Do you really believe this? Just when I thought I was doing well ... well, this stinks. One of the "tips" I picked up here on LS many mos ago was reframing how you think about xAP. I stopped thinking of him as funny, sexy and talented at our shared hobby/interest. I began to think of him as a scumbag. While never losing sight of my own poor behavior and boundaries, I reminded myself he made a fool of my H, that he probably just wanted to get one over on my H due to his own insecurity and jealousy of H. This really helped me think of him as scum. It still does. Does that mean I am emotionally invested in my former A? I don't think so. Getting to indifference requires hindsight and that is what you're doing. The rose colored glasses have come off and that is essential to getting to indifference. Indifference is being objective without raw emotion. It's not about forgetting the past but reconciling with it. Our lives are marked with history, it's now a part of your life story but it does not define your future. That's what I believe indifference is. 3
Author anne1707 Posted April 21, 2014 Author Posted April 21, 2014 Ugh. Do you really believe this? Just when I thought I was doing well ... well, this stinks. One of the "tips" I picked up here on LS many mos ago was reframing how you think about xAP. I stopped thinking of him as funny, sexy and talented at our shared hobby/interest. I began to think of him as a scumbag. While never losing sight of my own poor behavior and boundaries, I reminded myself he made a fool of my H, that he probably just wanted to get one over on my H due to his own insecurity and jealousy of H. This really helped me think of him as scum. It still does. Does that mean I am emotionally invested in my former A? I don't think so. I think as others have since posted,it is some form of emotional investment if you actually spend time thinking of him as a scumbag. Plus I am talking long term after the affair has ended, not in the first year or so when you are still having to work through all the emotions and thoughts that come with all this mess. Reaching indifference takes a long time especially because of the anger and pain that can be caused in an affair. But sometimes forcing a change of mindset, or even telling yourself to stop thinking about it, can help. In time, you won't have to do that because you just won't be thinking of him. You'll get there
Author anne1707 Posted April 21, 2014 Author Posted April 21, 2014 Hmmm..I don't see where indifference excludes rational hindsight. It doesn't. And I think indifference actually helps that because it allows you to clearly focus on what you did rather than what someone else did.
frogss29 Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 People come and go in our lives. They all leave a footprint. There will always be memories of things you shared with someone. Just because a friendship or a relationship is over doesn't mean you wipe away the good times or the bad times. As a BS, I would LOVE to think my husband no longer has any good memories of the person he betrayed me with. But I know that is ridiculous. But I also think the pain he now realises that 'friendship' has caused me sort of negates the good times. What we both try to do now is work on creating more happy memories so THAT is what he thinks about. 1
frogss29 Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 Women are much more forgiving that men. No, they are not. They just look at the bigger picture and their egos are more in tune with life. 1
notserene Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 I agree that indifference or boredom towards the AP would be an ideal state. I certainly don't think that the WS should wear sackcloth and ashes for the rest of his or her life. 1
frogss29 Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 I agree that indifference or boredom towards the AP would be an ideal state. I certainly don't think that the WS should wear sackcloth and ashes for the rest of his or her life. .....but can I add, the idea of sackcloth and ashes is particually appealing and if I could add a big bell around their neck, even better Just kidding
gettingstronger Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 He feels like crap for who he allowed himself to become-therapy centers around that for him-how he feels about the AP does not enter in-that is over, its about his healing so he can be the husband he should be- 2
janedoe67 Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 .....but can I add, the idea of sackcloth and ashes is particually appealing and if I could add a big bell around their neck, even better Just kidding You are kidding. There are most definitely others who are not
dichotomy Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) Not to expand this idea of WS feelings....but Although I think WS can get to a point of indifference, it is hard for BS's (well at least me sometimes) to get to a state of indifference about what we knew WS felt for AP at the time. In other words I think BS hold on to the understanding of feelings WS had at the time....perhaps even longer than WS themselves. All sorts of crap sticks to the BS longer than many a WS understands. How many times afterwards, even long afterwards, did I feel it/imagine ( WS feelings for AP) were still happening and present - even when my WS was not giving it a second thought. I think some level of indifference is good for me to achieve as well, and I am better at it now. Edited April 21, 2014 by dichotomy 2
waterwoman Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 For H I would like him to feel indifference towards his ap. Until she is in the same room as him, then I would prefer him to act as if there was a mildly bad smell around him that he was trying to ignore. 3
Spectre Posted April 21, 2014 Posted April 21, 2014 I think as others have since posted,it is some form of emotional investment if you actually spend time thinking of him as a scumbag. Plus I am talking long term after the affair has ended, not in the first year or so when you are still having to work through all the emotions and thoughts that come with all this mess. Reaching indifference takes a long time especially because of the anger and pain that can be caused in an affair. But sometimes forcing a change of mindset, or even telling yourself to stop thinking about it, can help. In time, you won't have to do that because you just won't be thinking of him. You'll get there You don't really have to spend any real time thinking about him as a scumbag..in order to still think he is a scumbag. People can be quite complicated. She doesn't need to sit and dwell on a dude to know he is shady.
Author anne1707 Posted April 22, 2014 Author Posted April 22, 2014 (edited) Trying to do a steer away from whether the AP is a scumbag or not and back to my original question (my OP was more about the WS and not the AP). Does anybody think the fWS should hate the AP or feel disgust in respect of the AP? Again, I don't mean short term but instead long term, years after reconciliation. Edited April 22, 2014 by anne1707
seren Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 Seeing how the A has affected my H has been really difficult. I had and have no illusions that it was a 'love' affair, but to deny that he had some feelings for her would be like sticking my head in the sand and hoping it all went away. After D Day, some almost 7 years ago now, I said to H that I would understand if he needed to meet her to give them both closure, that if he was missing her I wouldn't like it, but would understand. I didn't need or encourage the OW bashing from my friends nor H. H didn't want any contact with her, wouldn't answer her text messages or telephone calls, in fact he 'lost' his phone, I suspect he threw it away. It all tied in with his conflict avoidance behaviour before, during and after the A. I also think he, when faced with the consequences and possible result of the A, that he drew a line under it. I didn't need him to be so brutal, but he did. In the years since D Day (he told me he had, had an A) I have watched him struggle to understand why he had an A, he has had extensive counselling for Combat stress and PTSD after Iraq and Afghanistan. The guilt weighs heavily on him, I hate to see him feel so guilty, I hate to see him so ashamed of the person he now feels he is as opposed to who he felt he was before the A. I don't want him to feel his integrity has been smashed and try to let him see that an A does not define who he is at his core, that he has many beautiful qualities that define the man I know and love. I want him to feel that he made some crap decisions to deal with an even crappier time, that he has been forgiven, that it can never be forgotten, but it can be exactly what it is, ancient history. I don't want him to hate the OW, there is no logical reason for him to do so. Indifference is a fine place to be, I felt indifferent to her after we decided to reconcile, I never understood the destructive nature of their relationship, but I understand why H chose to have this A. We go months without H being anxious, without him feeling he is a bad person, then something will crop up and he will be plunged back into despair. It breaks my heart to see him like this. He is back in counselling with combat stress, we are doing really good, I wouldn't change this life or man for anything. But I would change how he feels about him. I hope a WS learns from the A, learns that compartmentalising doesn't solve anything, that leaving is really the kindest thing if love has gone from the marriage. That people can heal easier from a divorce than betrayal. I hope a WS looks long and hard at why they choose an A before trying to sort out the marital issues. I don't expect anyone to wear a hair shirt forever, but I do expect a proper ownership of their actions and the fallout. To acknowledge the BS as a person having as much right to happiness as themselves, if the WS steps outside the marriage then they should be honest and give the BS the right to make an informed choice - to stay or go. 2
dichotomy Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 Trying to do a steer away from whether the AP is a scumbag or not and back to my original question (my OP was more about the WS and not the AP). Does anybody think the fWS should hate the AP or feel disgust in respect of the AP? Again, I don't mean short term but instead long term, years after reconciliation. Yes when my fWS said, years after DD, that she now felt AP was "a worm who used her" It was a significant positive event for me, her, and the marriage.
Author anne1707 Posted April 22, 2014 Author Posted April 22, 2014 Yes when my fWS said, years after DD, that she now felt AP was "a worm who used her" It was a significant positive event for me, her, and the marriage. But that does that mean she has feelings of hate for him? You see I have this issue that the opposite of love is not hate but indifference. Hatred requires emotional investment outside the marriage and that to me is in some ways continuing the betrayal. 2
waterwoman Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 But that does that mean she has feelings of hate for him? You see I have this issue that the opposite of love is not hate but indifference. Hatred requires emotional investment outside the marriage and that to me is in some ways continuing the betrayal. I totally agree anne. H is not a man given to obvious displays of emotion to anyone really, but particularly people he doesn't know. He tends to play it cool. That is what I need from him towards her. Not hostility, definitely not affection, but polite indifference.
Spectre Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 But that does that mean she has feelings of hate for him? You see I have this issue that the opposite of love is not hate but indifference. Hatred requires emotional investment outside the marriage and that to me is in some ways continuing the betrayal. I really don't think anyone has said HATE him. Hate is a strong word. I hate the Ku Klux Klan. I hate nazi's. It's that simple, thinking someone is shady is not hatred. So to answer your question nope hate isn't needed, but total utter 100% indifference isn't needed either. See, you don't have to think about this person a lot, but we ALL have triggers. You might hear someone mention his name, or something else, and have a quick thought. There is no problem, as long as that thought is "hey, remember this dude is shady" and then you go on with your day and do not give it a second thought. I guess what I am saying is when push comes to shove you should still be able to acknowledge the scumminess. 1
Author anne1707 Posted April 22, 2014 Author Posted April 22, 2014 Spectre I understand totally. The point is that over my years on LS, I have seen posts in the OW/OM forum which are often "ofcourse the WS remembers you fondly, how could it be otherwise" and then I see posts on this forum which are along the lines at times of "my WS feels physically sick at the thought of the AP". Now I "get" both those things can be the case, especially soon after dday. But if either of those emotional extremes carry on long after dday (i.e. years) in a supposedly reconciled marriage then is that healthy? It's one thing thinking someone is scummy but to feel such contempt to react physically? Plus I also see it that if the AP is considered that disgusting because they chose to have an affair then by default so is the WS. Therefore if the WS feels such disgust for the AP then logic says they must also loathe themselves - that is not healthy. Similar logic could be applied to the BS thinking that way about the AP & therefore the WS by default too but that is not the topic of this thread. 1
badkarma2013 Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 it's the little triggers, little stabs that will be there even 5 years from now, or 10, or 20. It's the disbelief BS feels and will always feel, never quite understanding how WS could have done that. But WS did. WS may have said over and over that they have told the full truth and BS might have decided to believe them. But BS always knows that WS has told them as much truth as WS thought was necessary, not the 100% truth that BS thought was necessary. WS will NEVER reveal what they were really thinking at the time. BS will be left with nagging doubts FOREVER, powerless to do anything about it because BS wasn't there or wasn't inside WS's head. That is the hardest thing to live with. EA or PA. A month or a year. Sex once or a hundred times. One lie or fifty. It doesn't matter. All the damage was done in the moment that WS took that step. It destroyed what was, and what will never be the same again no matter what WS does. That time is gone. BS thought WS was someone they could trust with their life, their best friend in the world, their confidant, someone who would always stand by them. That's what BS thought, and BS was wrong, so wrong. BS sometimes remembers what it was like when there wasn't that little cloud overhead. And feels a pang as they think of when the sky was blue. BS would have never chosen this for themselves. Yet somehow they found themselves in it. Now it's Plan B. And it will always be Plan B. R is the Plan B version of marriage. It might be a strange thing to say, but so grievous is the wound of betrayal that had WS died, the pain would be easier. The sadness would be a different kind of sadness. A more tolerable kind of sadness. 1
Spectre Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 (edited) Well I never said react physically. I'm not saying you have to get yourself physically worked up over this person because yes that would be weird. I think another thing that needs to be said is the saying of the opposite of love is indifference. I get what people are trying to say here, but I also think that is a somewhat flawed way to look at things. It is essentially saying the opposite of one emotion is no emotions at all. I don't feel that makes any sense. Let us face it: love is an extreme emotion, though a positive one obviously. I feel it is odd to say the opposite of that is essentially nothingness..as opposed to merely an extremely negative emotion. I feel hate is the opposite of love, but the thing of it is you shouldn't have to be trying to feel the opposite of love here. If you actually loved the person you cheated with then that means you shouldn't be trying to fix your relationship anyways. You can certainly of thought you had those type of feelings for the person you cheated with, but if at the end of the day you actually genuinely had them then you just plain do not belong with whoever you cheated on. Another way to see it is I would say the opposite of happiness is sadness, instead of saying the opposite of happiness is the mere lack of happiness. Since the lack of happiness and sadness are not actually one in the same necessarily. If I stub my toe I am not happy about it, but I'm also not specifically sad about it either. Edited April 22, 2014 by Spectre 1
snappytomcat Posted April 22, 2014 Posted April 22, 2014 my xws says,theres nothing there he feels nothing,not love,not caring,not hate absolutely nothing,one of the things that bothered me is he told her he loved her,and on dday,he did a 180,when he said he loved her,to him it meant just as much as someone asking please pass the salt. he did try to break it off months before dday,but first she threatened suicide,and she threatened to tell me,was a coward
Author anne1707 Posted April 22, 2014 Author Posted April 22, 2014 I can understand why that bothered you Snappytomcat. If emotions can apparently be switched on and off so quickly, it would make you question what is true even more than you already are as a BS. It took me a long time to get to where I am now after going through phases of confusion, grieving the end of the affair, and anger at the exOM. But I had to go through all that to deal with it all properly.
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