Did any of you plan for the end?

[P1nginLOVE]

In contrast with everyone... I think the romantic trip is a wonderful end that would ( hopefully ) end the beautiful A along with its dilemma.

 

May I know your and your MM's age?Thx.

[spookysonata]

Ah, ok.

Where we disagree is that MM is actively trying to end his marriage, because of the fact that the wife is in the dark. I'm saying that if he wanted out, he would be honest with her about that, instead of leading her to believe there is a chance of reconciliation.

[SolG]

I agree that non traditional Rs don't mean lies and deception. And that when an R becomes triangulated without disclosure it isn't fair.

 

I thought you meant, though, that the end R they want to have would be cake eating. Although it's not fair, the process to get to the end doesn't seem to fit the definition of cake eating to me, either, since it's not a stagnant situation (my understanding of cake eating includes deliberate stagnation of an R perpetrated by one of the three parties in the R of R status for purposes of the comfort of that person alone at the expense of the other two parties) and the non traditional R they are striving to end up with, will be known of by the then XW.

 

My perception of cake eating includes being in a triangular R with no goal of moving out of it. So, that's why I don't consider this cake eating, since her MM seems to be actively trying to move out of his R with his W.

 

Thanks Speakingofwhich for providing clarity.

 

You are correct. Yes, we are all enmired in deception right now. And his W is the one unwittingly bearing the brunt of it. While MM hasn't been honest about our A, he absolutely has been with his W about the purpose of the MC being to help them exit; that is definitely clear. And she also knows that their M is all but dead already. But despite that, she does still hope that they may be some slight chance for them to recover. And yes, this is probably in part because she does not know of our A.

 

Also correct in that I do not expect him to ever physically 'leave' his W. I just expect him to renegotiate his M into one where they are separated, but under the same roof. Where they are all clear that the nature of the new relationship is about being a cohesive ans supportive parenting team; but they are romantically unattached. I'm actually surprised more of you haven't come across this exact arrangement before.

 

One other thing here that we've also agreed on; he doesn't ever have to divorce his wife if they agree that they don't want to. Nor go through any kind of financial separation other than a couple of separate bank accounts. This doesn't bother me either. To my way of thinking, it actually makes sense if that's what they decide to do as his W doesn't work (and probably won't for quite some time, if ever) and needs the legal protection and financial/resource support that M provides. I need none of that from him, and as stated previously, we never intend to marry anyway. (Guess I should mention that I'm still technically married to my xH... not really an issue for us.)

 

Also correct in that once this arrangement is established and bedded down, we intend to date openly starting next year. Our relationship will then not be hidden from anyone, including his W. And she will be free to pursue connections of her own if she chooses. We really hope she does.

 

Yes it's messy and convoluted and unfair at the moment. But if it does turn out, the arrangement stands a good chance of working for all of us. IF it happens...

 

Today I looked at some art classes and guitar lessons. I'm leaning towards the former to start with. Art is so soothing. I already do a few different artistic things, but I find a wider variety of options is always good for tough days. A glass of wine , dirty hands and an engaged and expressive mind... does wonders for the soul.

Edited April 6, 2014 by SolG

[Speakingofwhich]

Ah, ok.

Where we disagree is that MM is actively trying to end his marriage, because of the fact that the wife is in the dark. I'm saying that if he wanted out, he would be honest with her about that, instead of leading her to believe there is a chance of reconciliation.

 

 

ten characters

Edited April 6, 2014 by Speakingofwhich

[Speakingofwhich]

I haven't seen this set-up before, that I know of, SolG. Mostly see affairs, Ds and remarriages.

[2sunny]

His M is his top priority - that is obvious by his actions and agreement to do MC.

 

Because of his decision - it's best you disappear so he can focus on repairing the damage he's caused and maybe set things right.

 

If he's not given that space to focus on his m - he's not REALLY making effort to reconcile. He said he's trying to R right?

 

Then get out of the way!

[thinkingofhim]

All I can say is wow... talk about having his cake and eating it too. He wants to remain married, remain under one roof, still have a wife at home to care for the kiddos and probably care for him and the home as well while he goes on trips with his GF in exotic locales, and at the end of the day he can take his GF home and parade her in front of his wife openly, while the sweet wife will be happy for him and continues to care for the children and may even find a new love of her own (but not without leaving her husband or disrupting his homelife).

 

I know you would say I'm interpreting this incorrectly SolG, but what you've described just sounds like the cheating MM's fantasy dreamworld. I can't picture it playing out in reality.

[jwi71]

 

My MM is about to start MC; what he sees as end of story exit counselling, while his W holds out some slim hope that it may lead to R instead. There are all kinds of possible outcomes.

 

Then this is not exit counseling.

It can ONLY be exit counseling when BOTH parties know and agree to it as such. If the W is thinking otherwise - or having the slim hope of otherwise - then its going to be HIM trying to convince HER its over. And really, he can't do that on his own? Exactly how hard is that? Answer: Not at all.

 

- It goes as MM wants it to, and they separate under one roof.

 

So nothing changes for YOU then. You are still on the outside looking in - as Daddy's "special friend". So, I guess HIS plan is to lie to his children until...when? This is, w/o a doubt, an unmitigated disaster just waiting to happen. We shall dub this the HMS Titanic plan and will end exactly like the ship itself did - sans iceberg.

 

And that's just considering him - can't wait till his W starts banging someone - THAT'LL be interesting to watch unfold.

 

Of course, that's hyperbole for us and you - NOT for his kids - who get to LIVE this unfolding soap opera. Every. day.

 

What we have is one selfish, prideful and not giving a shyte about his kids "father" desperately trying to cake eat. If he CARED about his kids he would put THEM first - yet he doesn't. He's trying to cake eat. He's trying to leave his W, be the always present dad and have you. Guess what - not possible. Correction. It IS possible provided the "special friend" is ok with it all. Are you?

 

 

- They actually do find that they can through the MC and with concerted effort, R and rekindle some sense of a true M.

 

So you get dumped.

Or maybe not. If they R - would you entertain still being the OW?

 

- MM finds it harder than expected emotionally to follow through, and Rs.

 

So you get dumped.

Or maybe not. R - would you entertain still being the OW?

 

- MM's W reneges on separation under one roof and decides that if the M ends, he must move out. In this case he will R to stay; he WILL NOT live in a separate house to his children.

 

Then you are screwed.

Its just which path and for how long you wish to suffer.

 

Even in only those few scenarios that I just thought of off the top of my head, there is only one in which our relationship can continue. And even in that instance, there is still the matter of my additional proviso that we must be openly dating in the first quarter of 2015.

 

Actually you "lose" in all scenarios.

Because where will he be on Christmas? Thanksgiving? Easter? His birthday? The "family trip" to Disney - is that you or mom going?

 

So...you can hold hands at the park. Kiss on the lawn (but not HIS lawn - kids or neighbors might see). But - when it counts like holidays and vacation and junior's sport's practice - where will he be? And will YOU be welcome? Or must you sit off to the side as the "special friend".

 

Is that all you are? The special friend who occasionally appears at a distance?

 

Which essentially means you help perpetuate the fraud of the children's lives. Its like the truman show for them - nothing is real and everyone is in on it.

 

Those poor kids.

 

So.... while I do still love MM immensely and do hold out hope that our relationship will make it, I do realise that the odds are against us. If we can't survive, he has promised to tell me the minute he knows that. And I absolutely trust that he will. And I will also absolutely respect and support whatever choice he makes. He also understands that I will not be able to revert to being just his friend should our relationship end; even though he wants me to be should that happen.

 

So end it now. I know you don;t want to hear it - but there is NO good outcome here for you.

 

The ONLY way I see it - he actually moves out, gets a D and begins life as the millions of other D parent's. The kids will be FINE in a D. Until HE believes it - you are doomed.

 

That simple.

 

I'm now in the position that while hopeful yet, I think it would be prudent for me to plan also for the eventuality of us ending. I feel great trepidation at the possibility of losing the person that I've have spoken to every single day for the last almost four years. My best friend, lover and confidant in all things for all that time.

 

Plan this.

Plant that.

Plan the this if that but in the other circumstance then path "A" else "B" - its bullshyte. Its a desperate attempt at control when you have none.

 

I know - none of this is anywhere CLOSE to what you WANT to hear.

But that makes it no less true.

 

I'm trying to fill my life fuller than it has been with lots of stuff I want to do. I'm refocussing on my career in a way I haven't done for a long time. And I'm spending more time with my family. But I'm worried that no matter what I cram in, it won't be enough to fill the void that his absence will leave. And that void will just be filled up with unbearable loss and pain.

 

You are correct.

It will, in the understatement of the century, suck.

But its NOT unbearable. Its not never-ending - unless you WANT to wallow in it.

 

There are a couple of things I absolutely will not do if this ends. One is talk to friends or family about this and/or lean on them; it is not their burden or secret to bear.

 

Bad move. Friends and family EXIST to help carry the burden when you cannot alone. This is the EXACT time you NEED them. Rally, how can they be friends is, when needed the most, aren't there? Hell, you won't even give them the chance. What kind of friendship is that? I lean on my "circle" - they lean on me - its what friends and family do...at least in my world.

 

And two, I will not date. When my marriage ended, I promised myself that I would not ever have another man in my life in any serious way. I wanted pure freedom. MM obviously changed that, but I will not date anyone else if this ends.

 

Yeah. Sure. Whatever.

Make sure your "crotch rocket" has extra batteries then. Maybe one with a cord?

 

Look, you even make reference to it yourself - we all swear off the other sex during this crap. Won't last.

After my D - I swore I would never date or love again. Women sucked - blah,blah,blah. I'm remarried.

 

Did any of you have the opportunity to plan ahead? If so, what did you do that you found most helpful when your A did end? Would really appreciate your stories of what helped, and also what hindered.

 

What I think is most helpful is focus on YOUR needs. Its ok to set a line in the sand. To make demands. To stand up for yourself.

 

I wouldn't be a doormat. Which I equivocate to being passive. Your A is an R with your MM. As such, you have 50% say. Exercise it. Otherwise, you forfeit all rights to whining and complaining if it doesn't go your way.

 

Stand up for YOU. If not you, who will?

 

One thing I'm thinking of is a planning a farewell trip for MM and I if it comes to it; where we can toast and grieve the end of us together for a little bit before we go our separate ways.

 

WTF is this?

Its a horrible idea.

[Tullyseptember]

I still find this situation so sad. Two out of the three people know the feelings for third are completely over. I find it equally sad that these two people are trying to control the outcome of the thirds feelings and rights to know the complete truth. It seems more that damage control is being done and no consideration to the wife on how she truly wants to live out her life:( I'm sorry I'm a traditionalist in my views on marriage and I'm not trying to offend you it just triggers me to read that someone outside of the marriage has access to the privacy of the marriage regardless if the status is over or not. I do think you are very wise to ensure your time is spent taking care of you. Think though on the desperation view though on your dating friends, there is desperation seeping through on variouse issues in this situation. This of course is just how I'm reading this affair situation and only because I've lived through my own desperate actions:)

[jellybean89]

So what happens when his wife tells him to get out? What happens when she decides she wants a divorce and wants him out? You do realize there is a 99% probability she will not say "yeah, let's live together but have separate lives and you can date whoever you want". That's fantasy talking.

 

You say they will never divorce - but you don't know her enough to know what she will and won't tolerate. Does the A end when she kicks him out?

[gettingstronger]

What a player he is. In the end no one will win. How does he face himself knowing he is not being fair to either of you. You feel like you have the upper hand and some control over the situation when in reality the truth is buried so deep I can't imagine anyone can find it. I am betting you know deep down you are worth more than this. Sit back and read your posts and ask if this is what a relationship should be and if he's the type of person you want to go the distance with.

[FoolishOW]

I think jwi71 has made some excellent points.

 

 

What jumps out at me from your original posts is that you are a strong, independent, intelligent woman in many aspects of your life, but you realize, perhaps subconsciously, that you can't control this relationship. Your strength, independence, and intelligence, however, has enabled you to come up with some amazing justifications and rationalizations that, at the very least, create an acceptable façade of a level of control. Since the only thing you control is you, I'm struggling to understand why you feel it necessary, or even worthwhile, to wait/remain/give yet another year for changes that didn't/haven't occurred in the first 4? The rationalization that "we just came up with this plan and deadline" is, well... just that. Rationalizing the inevitable.

 

 

His reasons for MC cannot be known beyond his own mind. You believe it's for an exit from the marriage. BS believes it provides hope for the marriage. I'd bet my paycheck he's lying to both of you, and you both most likely believe "you're version is true, w/o reservation". Textbook.

 

 

He won't leave the home where his children are, and you're okay with him not legally divorcing, not living apart from his wife, and essentially keeping the family in tact, except for the "husband/wife relationship". Not only is that a HUGE justification for essentially changing nothing, but somehow you think there's a woman on this planet that would accept that type of condescending, patronizing scenario. Do you honestly believe that? Do you somehow think that his wife will view her husbands "support" in running a home and co-parenting under the same roof as some sort of gift or favor to her while he enjoys his "new", openly loving and meaningful relationship with you? You are too intelligent to seriously believe that anyone would agree to that, be comfortable with that, or engage in that.

 

 

You mention that you're surprised so few have heard of a similar scenario where couples separate under the same roof. THAT actually isn't uncommon at all, but what you've suggested is that the situation REMAIN that way indefinitely, minus the emotional/sexual elements of being a couple, until the children are up and out. Oh... while you're being inserted, openly, and comfortably, amid this newly arranged format.

 

 

You've asked how to prepare for the possibility of the end of your affair, and I believe there's a very good reason for that. It's inevitable, and you are smart enough to see that... but no where near ready to admit that it's already arrived. You've made several statements about the trappings of a 'traditional marriage' that you don't want and don't need, but if all the statements are true, (I'll assume they are) why require that your MM do anything differently at all? The one and only change I clearly see you requiring is that MM openly and publically end his emotional/sexual relationship with his wife (under that same roof), and fill that newly vacant position with you. Really? For arguments sake, let's assume that could happen. What on earth would stop him from carrying on with his wife, from time to time, in ways you would emphatically object to?

 

 

You've already given him 4 years to do this and it hasn't happened yet. Now, your willing to give him yet another year to do absolutely nothing differently. Why? The best, and really only thing you can do under the circumstances, is end this relationship now. It isn't going to end any easier a year from now, but it's your choice as to how you spend the next year. There is no guess work here. Men will move heaven and earth to be with a woman they love, respect, and truly want to spend their life with, and they don't do it through lies, manipulation, excuses, and demands. They do it because they can't NOT do it.

[waterwoman]

I know two couples who have lived separately in the same house. In both cases it was a temporary solution, under a year. And in both cases it was mutual and, more importantly, honest with no other parties involved. Very different.

[FoolishOW]

SolG... you mention you love this man "immensely". Isn't it difficult to love someone, heart and soul, when you know they are capable of deceiving another woman for 4 years? We're not talking 6 months here. Regardless of the justification given, does it not give you pause that this man has not, in all those 4 years, felt the need to be honest and fair with a woman he actually married and has children with? Other than wishful thinking, what would possibly give you reason to believe that YOU get the truth, but SHE gets lied to?

 

 

You've asked him to "tell you the second he knows this is over" (between the two of you), and you somehow TRUST him to do this, yet he clearly doesn't have the integrity or respect to tell his own wife that the MC they are entering into is a sham... his cowardly WAY OUT of opening his own mouth and telling her the truth. How is it that YOU'RE able to willingly hand him your trust (involving what he tells you specific to his relationship with YOU) when you are so obviously aware, first hand, how often and easily he lies.

 

 

I hope something helps you to gain a more objective perspective, SolG.

Life is too short to have to wait for someone elses decisions to define your own future.

[whichwayisup]

My MM is about to start MC; what he sees as end of story exit counselling, while his W holds out some slim hope that it may lead to R instead. There are all kinds of possible outcomes.

 

Why does she have hope? Really if he is done with the marriage, then he should be honest and tell his wife the truth. Honestly, from what I've read it seems like he doesn't know what he wants but I do know this, he isn't ready to walk away from you or his wife. If he had the courage to make a decision and stick to it, then at least something is being accomplished. Doing counseling with the guise of his exit is a lie - He's lying to himself, which makes him lie to you.

You've asked him to "tell you the second he knows this is over" (between the two of you), and you somehow TRUST him to do this, yet he clearly doesn't have the integrity or respect to tell his own wife that the MC they are entering into is a sham... his cowardly WAY OUT of opening his own mouth and telling her the truth. How is it that YOU'RE able to willingly hand him your trust (involving what he tells you specific to his relationship with YOU) when you are so obviously aware, first hand, how often and easily he lies.

Excellent point. How can you expect him to be 100% up front and honest with you when he can't even do the same with his wife. See how he's treating her, that could be YOU some day. The disrespect, the lies/omitting/game playing (selfishly not maliciously) to suit him best, meanwhile both you and his wife are on a string.

[HermioneG]

I would gently remind you, that unless you have been either in the MC room with his wife and your MM, or in the room where explained the purpose of MC to her, you have no way of confirming what his wife actually has been told.

 

I don't know very many people that would agree to go to MC with someone who has told them they are leaving.

 

Family counseling with the kids for transition, yes. But MC in the scenario you described? Unusual.

 

Sometimes, and I know it's hard, it's a good idea to step back and try to dispassionately look at a situation as it is being described as if has nothing to do with you. And decide if it makes any sense at all.

[fellini]

Did you end up back in your primary relationship or sought out a new partner that worked? I'm seriously interested!

 

Re: the farewell trip. I'm with everyone else so far in discouraging it. I had a farewell trip with a bf (not an MM) whom I always knew it wasn't going to work with. I didn't even want it to work with him, though we loved each other. It was a sad time, not fun. Would never do it again.

 

In a sense I did plan the end of the A with MM the first time I was with him as I began to want to get out of it because of overwhelming guilt feelings, though we were crazy in love with each other. The D day occurred in a way that was traumatic for me. At the very moment it happened my feelings left me and I walked away unscathed by grief or longing.

 

I think it was like being in a loving and wonderful prison that I began to want to escape from back into reality. When D day happened it was as if a door swung wide open and I fled out into the wild blue yonder with my arms stretched out to the warm sunshine and fresh air shouting, "YEEEEEESSSS"!

[DKT3]

My xMM defined a timeline and I knew I had to stick to it. With regard to his marriage, he did a few things but nothing that couldn't be undone. When the time came, he panicked but I stuck to it.

 

I planned ahead by deciding to trust him while acknowledging that only a selfish man would keep things going this way. If he couldn't be mine, I didn't want him.

 

Turns out he was a selfish coward. I modified my plan with that knowledge and made a decision not to waste another moment loving him. That was easier than I thought because I focused on the truth, not the ideal I had of him or what we shared.

 

That was almost a year ago.

 

I've been in a relationship with a single man for 10 months. I'm not a secret, I can be with him or contact him whenever I want, and so on.

 

Don't end this affair and still pine for what could have been. Move on. It's the best way to realize how dysfunctional your affair is. It's all talk and wishful thinking. You're planing for the end because you know he's not leaving. You're waiting for a decision that he's already made. Another 8 months that he knows he has to manage you. If he wanted to leave his marriage, he would.

 

It really is that simple. If you end it and move on, you'll see that very clearly.

 

And we have a winner. The sooner OW figure out that most, and I mean 91% of WH's has no intention or desire to leave his wife the better off you will be. They simple aren't as emotionally vested in the relationship. They may carry some feelings but its mostly smoke and mirrors. A vast majority of men can seperate sex and emotions. Also unlike women, men can cheat on their wives and not have it reflect poorly on her or rewrite the history of the marriage. My meaning is, most unfaithful wives turn the husband into a bigger jerk then he really is to justify the affair. Men, well they simply don't do that. Now he will tell you he does, but really he doesn't.

 

Op you say you trust him to tell you if its not going to work? You mean the way his wife trusted that he would cheat? If he will lie and cheat on the woman he married, then he will lie and cheat on you. If you were as special to him as he has you thinking then he would have picked you and wouldn't be wasting time and money with MC.

 

So many beautiful, smart woman falling for the same trash. All thinking their situation is different, and their guy (married of course) is different then all the other selfish cheating guys.

[Speakingofwhich]

Did you end up back in your primary relationship or sought out a new partner that worked? I'm seriously interested!

 

 

fellini, it would be a t/j in this thread. And also this thread has changed significantly since it began.

 

If you'd like to pm me and share with me why you're seriously interested I'll consider opening up to you.

 

I've considered posting my experience in a thread on LS as I do think it would benefit OWs/OMs and some BHs/BWs but I wouldn't want the thread to become bogged down, as imho this one has, and I don't see a way around it given what I've observed the past year on LS. Please don't misunderstand, I enjoy LS, think it's beneficial in many ways, and hope to continue reading and posting selectively here.

 

As an aside, for six months or more I, as an OW, have exchanged daily emails, sometimes multiple times a day, with a BW I met on LS discussing our situations. Our exchanges have benefited both of us immensely and she has become a dear friend.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Speakingofwhich

[P1nginLOVE]

What did you finally decide?

Hope he's been giving you honest details of the MC.