Forever Learning Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) Some of you ladies have such heartbreaking stories here in this section I feel like, had you had a bit of insight regarding affairs and relationships, maybe you wouldn't have had to go through so much pain and suffering in your life's 'learning process'. I am a great believer in continual learning and expanding one's horizon's (hence my name, Forever Learning ) and want to share some great articles with you that I hope will be helpful. This was written by one of the wisest women on the planet, Natalie Lue, on her website 'Baggage Reclaim'. Oh, how I LOVE ME some Natalie Lue!!!! She is SO FREAKING AWESOME!!! One smart cookie, her! She has taught me things about men, relationships, and human nature, that I would have never learned otherwise. Here is one of many, MANY articles she has written. This one focuses on affairs. I hope it is of some help to you and makes you a little bit smarter, and therefore more powerful today (knowledge is power ) ********************* Article by Natalie Lue from Baggage Reclaim: "Right now, there are thousands of ‘ladies in waiting’ in relationships; women who are willing, waiting, and hoping that the guy they’re with, will leave their girlfriend or wife. ‘Is he going to leave her for me?’;'When is he going to leave her?’ and ‘Why hasn’t he left her yet?’ <snip> It’s tough; you want to know that the pain and effort of effectively playing second fiddle, hanging on the sidelines, and having to operate on marginalised terms in your relationship with a married or attached man, is worth it. I should know…I spent about 18 months being the other woman to a guy with a girlfriend several years ago. I asked those questions frequently and many more. <snip> But there is a problem with 1) wondering if he’s going to leave ‘her’ for you and 2) having to ask. I appreciate that life throws some curve balls and you don’t know when you might meet the person who you genuinely feel like there could be something pretty big with, and that sometimes when it happens, that person is involved with someone else. However (and it is a big however), people who genuinely love, care, trust, and respect you and want to be with you in a committed way, are not going to engage in an ongoing deception. If you have to wonder or ask if someone is going to leave someone else for you, it says the following: Whatever you both have going on between the two of you, he has not given you enough (or even any) security and assurance that you and him are going to have a bonafide relationship. When you’re wondering if they’re going to leave, it suggests that it’s an affair that is unlikely to transcend being an affair. <snip> When you ask the first time, you can call it clarification and validation that you’re both on the same page – call it a ‘defining the relationship’ conversation. <snip> When you ask repeatedly it’s because his actions do not match his words. Basically he said he was going to leave in X timeframe but now it’s Y timeframe and he’s now claiming it’s going to be Z timeframe. The longer you stay, the more the timeframe keeps shifting. Or…he hasn’t really directly pinned himself to committing to actually leaving however he’s still there. <Read the rest of the article at baggagereclaim> .. Edited April 3, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Conformance with guidelines 5
Author Forever Learning Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) I think I will go ahead and post part II here, because this article is just so awesome. It really is!! *********************** Part II of article from website "Baggage Reclaim" - by Natalie Lue : "Yesterday, I explained why wondering or questioning whether a man is going to leave his wife or girlfriend for you can put you in a precarious position because it means that the way that the ‘affair’ is playing out is not giving you enough confidence to believe that he will leave her and be with you. This is especially the case if you have to keep wondering and keep asking – it suggests that whatever is being said and happening is not enough. It suggests he’s not leaving… <snip> There are a few key assumptions that I believe women who go into ‘relationships’ with the cheater work off [redacted] and these fuel the question and desire for him to leave: 1) If a man is prepared to risk his existing relationship in order to be with you, he must be crazy about you. A lot of cheaters get off on taking risks and playing truant on their relationships. They don’t like the normality that comes with the steadiness of a relationship or the wants, needs, and expectations that arise from it, so they seek their thrills elsewhere. Sometimes you’re like something they’ve just got to have but they haven’t really thought past winning you over to the bit where you expect them to follow through on their ardent pursuit [redacted] 2) If a man has got married or has a girlfriend it shows that he’s capable of commitment which in turn makes him a good catch. The fact that someone will cheat shows their lack of commitment plus this is a blind assumption based on another assumption, that all people get into relationships for the right reasons and are committed. 3) The reason why he can’t let go of you is because he finds you irresistible. Men who genuinely want to be with you and who have real trust, care, love, and respect, don’t try to resist you in the wider sense. They sort their lives out to be with you properly, sooner, rather than later. 4) You’re only taking on the ‘other woman’ role as a temporary position with the goal of being the main woman. This is basically like giving someone a ‘try before you buy’ option. You’re in the position of trying to prove yourself in the hope that one day, you’ll create the impetus for him to leave. Unfortunately the guy who will cheat on an ongoing basis and tie you up in a litany of whines and excuses about his ‘situation’, interprets the fact that you’ll be with him in spite of his other relationship, suggests that you have little or no boundaries and that you’ll be there anyway. He basically assumes he can ‘handle’ the situation should you create conflict. [further text redacted] **************** <read the entire article at baggagereclaim> Good stuff, no? I thought so! Edited April 3, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Reduce quoted text and redact direct links to commercial content
Hope Shimmers Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 Some of you ladies have such heartbreaking stories here in this section I feel like, had you had a bit of insight regarding affairs and relationships, maybe you wouldn't have had to go through so much pain and suffering in your life's 'learning process'. Hi Forever Learning. Just curious - what are your credentials for knowing all about this subject? I'm guessing I am older than you and likely have more insight and experience than you do. I've been through life's 'learning process' for sure. The thing is, there are many, many individual stories here. They can't be summarized with an article. Many women here are in their 40's or older. Some, like me, were not told that their MM was in fact married. Not that it matters. But I will take a look at the information you provided, thanks. 2
HPrynne Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 That was incredibly helpful; thank you. I asked a question about this a while back, and got some very useful responses, but this is much more detailed - almost a checklist to go down and ask yourself, "Is this true?" "Does that apply?" 1
HPrynne Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 Some, like me, were not told that their MM was in fact married. Not that it matters. But I will take a look at the information you provided, thanks. That's actually mentioned in the article - women who were not told the MM was M. 1
Hope Shimmers Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 That's actually mentioned in the article - women who were not told the MM was M. To be more accurate, I was told he was separated but divorcing. He had been living on his own for awhile when I met him.
cocorico Posted April 3, 2014 Posted April 3, 2014 I feel like, had you had a bit of insight regarding affairs and relationships, maybe you wouldn't have had to go through so much pain and suffering in your life's 'learning process'. Did you intend to come across as patronising as this? While I'm sure some OW were naive innocents who could have benefited from the bland "insights" of unclaimed baggage or whatever she calls herself, many of us were older, wiser and made informed decisions that suited us and our requirements at the time. No pain, no suffering, and our lives continue to be learning processes filled with awe and wonder. But thanks for trying to "teach" us what we already knew - that for some OW it's a poor choice - you get treated "second best", made promises that don't materialise and then waste time hoping for change. Just like many Ms, and many other Rs that are less than optimal. Yes, bad As exist, and are probably over represented on these boards, just as bad Ms and bad dating Rs are. And yes, the same attributes that would serve you well in any other R - being assertive, being clear about your values, communicating clearly, etc - would serve you well in an A. Those of us who utilised such in our As have had good outcomes - whether we landed up with our fAPs or not. It's common sense - but if you prefer it packaged in bland truisms surrounded by advertising, by all means add to her clickthroughs.
Author Forever Learning Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) Did you intend to come across as patronising? Oh no, I did not intend to come across as patronising! I'm sorry you interpreted my comments as such. Not my intent at all! I just realize (and therefore felt compelled to share with the hurting folks here) that Natalie Lue writes some amazingly insightful articles about relationships at her website, Baggage Reclaim. And I have noticed some women in the "Other Woman" section who I know would benefit greatly from reading her articles. Knowledge is power! And comforting as well, to those with broken hearts. The knowledge Natalie Lue shares, lifts the fog, and provides a beacon in the dark, to the heartbroken, confused and lost stuck in toxic, dead end relationships. She really does. She has thousands of followers and has written several amazingly insightful books on these subjects that have helped thousands of heartbroken and lost folks in dysfunctional relationships. Cheers and all the best to you dear! Edited April 3, 2014 by Forever Learning 1
Author Forever Learning Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 Those of us who utilised such in our As have had good outcomes - whether we landed up with our fAPs or not. I should add I am thrilled that some of the Affairs have had good outcomes. Awesome! Glad to hear it! I wish good things for everyone - love, happiness, peace, comfort, contentment, honesty, integrity, truthfulness, and all the best life has to offer, whether someone is in a relationship, or not. I am not passing judgment on anyone. That's not how I roll. Just trying to help the lost and confused in life, with wisdom I have found along the way. People have helped me, and I intend to express my gratitude and thankfulness in helping others when I can as well. Pay it forward as they say. Cheers hun! 1
Author Forever Learning Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 That's actually mentioned in the article - women who were not told the MM was M. That is very common in affairs, isn't it? I think so.
Author Forever Learning Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 That was incredibly helpful; thank you. You are so welcome! :bunny: I am so delighted that someone benefited from Natalie's article! The article has been snipped away quite a bit here on my posts by the moderators, however you can read it in it's entirety (and a thousand other amazing articles) by Natalie Lue on her Baggage Reclaim website. Anyhow, glad you found it helpful, I am absolutely delighted!! I just love her to death. She's helped me learn so much!
Author Forever Learning Posted April 3, 2014 Author Posted April 3, 2014 (edited) Hi Forever Learning. Just curious - what are your credentials for knowing all about this subject? I'm guessing I am older than you and likely have more insight and experience than you do. I'm guessing you would be incorrect! I'm in my mid 40's and have been around the block a dozen times or two! (Ok, I'm just being a wee bit dramatic there But those who know me around here know I can get a little randy sometimes And, I believe a good dose of humor in a post now and then, does a body good) Hmmm..... credentials. I didn't realize that you had to be credentialed to post comments now. I wonder if there is an online course I should look into at the local community college..... Well let's see what I have under my belt that might serve as credentials for life experience - marriage, divorce, affairs, bankruptcy, motorcycle wrecks, premature babies, cancer, booze, drugs, hurricanes, tornados, you name it, I've done it! Ok, I haven't actually done a tornado yet...... But I've been through multiple floods and hurricanes Blindly guessing that one has more experience and insight than someone else is a sure sign of lack of insight and experience...... But it's all good, no hard feelings! I don't hold a grudge, that's not how I roll. I've been through life's 'learning process' for sure. Awesome! Me too! The thing is, there are many, many individual stories here. They can't be summarized with an article. Boy howdy, you can say that again! I never said they could be. This is an example of you jumping the gun and being presumptious. But no biggie, it's all good. Many women here are in their 40's or older. No doubt, as am I. But I am wise enough to realize that people of all ages and genders, can on occasion offer compelling insight into situations they may have never even experienced themselves. Undoubtedly, experience garners wisdom. But I would also add that on occasion, a thoughtful mind, regardless of age or gender, can offer gems of useful insight even when not having experienced the actual situation personally. Therefore, I counter that commentary and insight from all adults of any age can prove useful if offered in a heartfelt manner. Some, like me, were not told that their MM was in fact married. Not that it matters. That is a bummer. And it did matter. He lacked integrity in not revealing this fully to you. I do feel for you entirely. Integrity matters. Without honesty and integrity, you can't have trust. And what is a relationship, but trust? But I will take a look at the information you provided, thanks. Cool! I hope you come to enjoy Natalie's writings as much as I have! Edited April 3, 2014 by Forever Learning 1
jellybean89 Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 Thank you for posting this information. I think all of us on the earth can always learn some new things. I didn't think your post was anything more than providing information/food for thought. 2
somedude81 Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 If a man has got married or has a girlfriend it shows that he’s capable of commitment which in turn makes him a good catch. The fact that someone will cheat shows their lack of commitment plus this is a blind assumption based on another assumption, that all people get into relationships for the right reasons and are committed. ---------------- Anybody who believes that a man already in a relationship is a good catch, needs to get slapped upside the head. There are millions of men out there who are single and great catches. Go find one! Who cares if he's not already pre-approved. There is also the third assumption that if a guy is single, he must be a poor catch. That's a load of horse crap. 2
Daisy2013 Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 I think I will go ahead and post part II here, because this article is just so awesome. It really is!! *********************** Part II of article from website "Baggage Reclaim" - by Natalie Lue : "Yesterday, I explained why wondering or questioning whether a man is going to leave his wife or girlfriend for you can put you in a precarious position because it means that the way that the ‘affair’ is playing out is not giving you enough confidence to believe that he will leave her and be with you. This is especially the case if you have to keep wondering and keep asking – it suggests that whatever is being said and happening is not enough. It suggests he’s not leaving… <snip> There are a few key assumptions that I believe women who go into ‘relationships’ with the cheater work off [redacted] and these fuel the question and desire for him to leave: 1) If a man is prepared to risk his existing relationship in order to be with you, he must be crazy about you. A lot of cheaters get off on taking risks and playing truant on their relationships. They don’t like the normality that comes with the steadiness of a relationship or the wants, needs, and expectations that arise from it, so they seek their thrills elsewhere. Sometimes you’re like something they’ve just got to have but they haven’t really thought past winning you over to the bit where you expect them to follow through on their ardent pursuit [redacted] 2) If a man has got married or has a girlfriend it shows that he’s capable of commitment which in turn makes him a good catch. The fact that someone will cheat shows their lack of commitment plus this is a blind assumption based on another assumption, that all people get into relationships for the right reasons and are committed. 3) The reason why he can’t let go of you is because he finds you irresistible. Men who genuinely want to be with you and who have real trust, care, love, and respect, don’t try to resist you in the wider sense. They sort their lives out to be with you properly, sooner, rather than later. 4) You’re only taking on the ‘other woman’ role as a temporary position with the goal of being the main woman. This is basically like giving someone a ‘try before you buy’ option. You’re in the position of trying to prove yourself in the hope that one day, you’ll create the impetus for him to leave. Unfortunately the guy who will cheat on an ongoing basis and tie you up in a litany of whines and excuses about his ‘situation’, interprets the fact that you’ll be with him in spite of his other relationship, suggests that you have little or no boundaries and that you’ll be there anyway. He basically assumes he can ‘handle’ the situation should you create conflict. [further text redacted] **************** <read the entire article at baggagereclaim> Good stuff, no? I thought so! Thank you for these! I struggle with 3) big tine. My MM or ex, friend, whatever he is called won't leave his W even though he says I'm irresistible and he's in love with me and he has never had with his W what we have. But he refuses to leave because it would be his 3rd divorce and he won't go through it again. So I had the option to stay with him "as is" or move on. It's really hard to know someone loves you but is afraid to take the leap...if he is truly as unhappy as he proclaims. He doesn't want to let me go, yet won't be with me. I'm not worth him sorting out his life. He hates conflict. 1
Author Forever Learning Posted April 4, 2014 Author Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) If a man has got married or has a girlfriend it shows that he’s capable of commitment which in turn makes him a good catch. The fact that someone will cheat shows their lack of commitment plus this is a blind assumption based on another assumption, that all people get into relationships for the right reasons and are committed. ---------------- Anybody who believes that a man already in a relationship is a good catch, needs to get slapped upside the head. There are millions of men out there who are single and great catches. Go find one! Who cares if he's not already pre-approved. There is also the third assumption that if a guy is single, he must be a poor catch. That's a load of horse crap. I'm sure you know this, but just in case anyone out there mis-interpreted, I will clear this up. The first sentence in bold, above, (in your quote, the very first sentence in bold) is the 'falsehood/ falacy/ myth/ misconception'. The following sentence, in italics and underlined, is the rebuttal / true statement. ********************** Yes I agree Somedude. If anyone thinks the statement in bold is true, they are a major meathead And yes, it is never a wise idea to be in a relationship with someone who isn't single. It's nothing but a world of hurt and trouble, most people would agree......... Life is too short for the pain and drama of trying to date someone who isn't totally and completely single. Boy howdy, truer words never spoken! Three cheers for dating single people! Hip hip hooray! Hip hip hooray! Hip hip HOORAY! Especially single guys born in 1981..... :bunny: Edited April 4, 2014 by Forever Learning 1
Author Forever Learning Posted April 4, 2014 Author Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) Thank you for posting this information. I think all of us on the earth can always learn some new things. I didn't think your post was anything more than providing information/food for thought. Oh, thank you Jellybean! I have a huge assortment of favorite websites, and they are pretty much all centered around advice/ growth/ relationships/ trauma recovery. Oh, and yoga and Buddhism. Oh hell, I guess I shouldn't even narrow it down that much I like a little bit of just about everything I find on the internet, if it is at all related to the human experience, and learning from it. I tend to be a major goofball meathead in many aspects, and so I try to read all I can to counterbalance by knucklehead nature. Sometimes it works, sometimes, well, not so much But this Natalie Lue chick, she is the bomb. You need to check out her website, it's phenomenal. Such brilliance. What a noggin she has. I only wish the internet had been around when I was in my 20's and early 30's (or at least I had had more access to it in my 30's - like say, 1996 - 2006 or so). The internet can be a great resource for learning and fellowship. I was in a super sh*t sandwich of a marriage during 1996 to 2011, and I suffered alone. I hate to see others suffer. Cheers Momma! Edited April 4, 2014 by Forever Learning 1
Author Forever Learning Posted April 4, 2014 Author Posted April 4, 2014 Thank you for these! I struggle with 3) big tine. My MM or ex, friend, whatever he is called won't leave his W even though he says I'm irresistible and he's in love with me and he has never had with his W what we have. But he refuses to leave because it would be his 3rd divorce and he won't go through it again. So I had the option to stay with him "as is" or move on. It's really hard to know someone loves you but is afraid to take the leap...if he is truly as unhappy as he proclaims. He doesn't want to let me go, yet won't be with me. I'm not worth him sorting out his life. He hates conflict. You are so welcome! You should really check out her website and start your journey of learning. Over time, the fog will lift and you will know better how to proceed and move in a direction of freedom from unhappiness in an unhappy situation, to a place of peace, freedom, contentment, self assurance, sanity, wisdom, and happiness. It is a journey, but you don't have to go it alone. There are others who have been in the shoes you are in, and learned how to find our way out. All the best to you dear!
Author Forever Learning Posted April 4, 2014 Author Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) There is another website and author that I really admire, that writes at length about these topics, her name is Lisa E Scott, and that is her website as well, her full name as I just typed out, you can google her name to find her website as well. Unfortunately this website's rules do not allow me to post a direct link to her website, so you will have to google her name to get to her website. But it is WELL WORTH IT! She writes about Surviving A Narcissist - The Path Forward, which I feel many people, particularly married men, who engage in affairs, tend to be Narcisssists. Here is a video clip of Lisa E Scott talking about red flags that may indicate someone is a Narcissist.... Lisa E. Scott talks about the 6 Red Flags of a Narcissist on NBC St. Louis - YouTube I had never heard of these things until I visited Lisa's website. But she is right on the money. Once you become aware of these type personality traits in certain individuals, many things make more sense when you encounter them, particularly in dysfunctional relationship situations. Edited April 4, 2014 by Forever Learning
clia Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 If a man has got married or has a girlfriend it shows that he’s capable of commitment which in turn makes him a good catch. The fact that someone will cheat shows their lack of commitment plus this is a blind assumption based on another assumption, that all people get into relationships for the right reasons and are committed. ---------------- Anybody who believes that a man already in a relationship is a good catch, needs to get slapped upside the head. There are millions of men out there who are single and great catches. Go find one! Who cares if he's not already pre-approved. There is also the third assumption that if a guy is single, he must be a poor catch. That's a load of horse crap. Um...weren't you recently posting about going after women who are unhappy in their relationships to try to lure them away and date you instead? Or is it different if it's a woman instead of a man?
somedude81 Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 Um...weren't you recently posting about going after women who are unhappy in their relationships to try to lure them away and date you instead? Or is it different if it's a woman instead of a man? That's a completely different matter. I would never be the "Other Man." 1
Itspointless Posted April 4, 2014 Posted April 4, 2014 That's a completely different matter. I would never be the "Other Man." In my book that is a big nono. The fact that she is unhappy does not say anything about the man in question. Imagine that you would be the guy with that girlfriend. In my opinion the world would be a much more pleasant place if we all had somewhat more respect for each-other. I noticed - especially when I was younger - that guys can be real arseholes when you are out with your girl. So much for being happy for a fellow human being. But perhaps I am the weird one to like it when I see people happy. 1
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