verhrzn Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 I come across this time and time again.... the idea that men are naturally wired to be polygamous, and that men are only monogamous because women refuse to be in relationships with them otherwise. That, or men are only monogamous because of quid-pro-quo.... they'd prefer to be out banging other women, but don't want their girlfriends sleeping with other men, and so are monogamous as a compromise. Is it true? Are there are men who would choose monogamy over polygamy? If you could live in a society where men could have multiple partners, but women were expected to be monogamous, would you choose that? Would you open up your relationship if you could avoid the consequences (your partner leaving you/sleeping with someone else)? Is it foolish to expect fidelity from a male partner? 1
VeronicaRoss Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 All you have to do to answer this is read the 'infidelity' section and see how many men are crushed by their wife screwing around. Their first reaction is rarely: "Oh shoot, if I had known about this I would have been cheating too." 5
salparadise Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Monogamy is actually for the men's benefit. In some modern cultures, and many more throughout history, monogamy was not the norm. Women were valued for their precious, child-bearing potential (more is better), while men were valued for their wealth, status and power which enhances the woman's potential for raising progeny to maturity and a successful launch. So the women all gravitated toward the top of the food chain and men took as many wives as they could attract and afford to support. Prettier women got the wealthier men, and all the children were sired by better quality men. Kings, sultans and wealthy landowners ended up with hundreds of wives and progeny, and the numbers would taper as you descend the socioeconomic ladder. The result was that all of the women ended up in the top third of the socioeconomic stratum, while two-thirds of men could not get a wife. They essentially had no reproductive potential, no female comfort or access to sex, which is a fundamental human need (from the individual's perspective). This made for a LOT of angry men... enough to overthrow monarchies, oust landowners, and generally create an unlimited amount of civil unrest and chaos. So at some point society decided that it would be a good thing if these masses of angry men were satiated, so they invented monogamy to quell the unrest by redistributing the women such that every man would have one. This was not good for the women in that they became mostly poorer and many had to labor in the fields, live in poverty, and have children sired by less desirable genes. So monogamy is something of a socialist concept that mostly benefits poorer men. 5
veritas lux mea Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 With the way people live in our culture would you really want to have to keep two or more partners happy? 3
somedude81 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Hey verhrzn how you been? Haven't seen you in a while. Is it foolish to expect fidelity from a male partner? No, of course not. Any man who can't be faithful to you should be kicked to the curb. 2
fortyninethousand322 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 I come across this time and time again.... the idea that men are naturally wired to be polygamous, and that men are only monogamous because women refuse to be in relationships with them otherwise. That, or men are only monogamous because of quid-pro-quo.... they'd prefer to be out banging other women, but don't want their girlfriends sleeping with other men, and so are monogamous as a compromise. Is it true? Are there are men who would choose monogamy over polygamy? If you could live in a society where men could have multiple partners, but women were expected to be monogamous, would you choose that? Would you open up your relationship if you could avoid the consequences (your partner leaving you/sleeping with someone else)? Is it foolish to expect fidelity from a male partner? I'd like to say that I consider myself a man who wants monogamy. But, I'm not sure that I qualify as a "real man" so...
Negative Nancy Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 (edited) Monogamy is actually for the men's benefit. In some modern cultures, and many more throughout history, monogamy was not the norm. Women were valued for their precious, child-bearing potential (more is better), while men were valued for their wealth, status and power which enhances the woman's potential for raising progeny to maturity and a successful launch. So the women all gravitated toward the top of the food chain and men took as many wives as they could attract and afford to support. Prettier women got the wealthier men, and all the children were sired by better quality men. Kings, sultans and wealthy landowners ended up with hundreds of wives and progeny, and the numbers would taper as you descend the socioeconomic ladder. The result was that all of the women ended up in the top third of the socioeconomic stratum, while two-thirds of men could not get a wife. They essentially had no reproductive potential, no female comfort or access to sex, which is a fundamental human need (from the individual's perspective). This made for a LOT of angry men... enough to overthrow monarchies, oust landowners, and generally create an unlimited amount of civil unrest and chaos. So at some point society decided that it would be a good thing if these masses of angry men were satiated, so they invented monogamy to quell the unrest by redistributing the women such that every man would have one. This was not good for the women in that they became mostly poorer and many had to labor in the fields, live in poverty, and have children sired by less desirable genes. So monogamy is something of a socialist concept that mostly benefits poorer men. Very true. Many men pathetically dream about polygamy, but monogamy (strictly enforced) actually benefits men because it ensures every man gets a woman. Whereas within a polygamous society, the betas and losers will be left behind because who would women want to hook up with and get the top genes from? Only the top men, even to the point of sharing one man. So the top men score with the majority of women, while the down-on-their-luck men of society would get...no woman at all, or one less good looking than they prefer (since men are so visual ). Dont get on my case for pointing out these obvious fact, I havent invented them, psychology backs me up: Most women benefit from polygyny, while most men benefit from monogamyWhen there is resource inequality among men—the case in every human society—most women benefit from polygyny: women can share a wealthy man. Under monogamy, they are stuck with marrying a poorer man. The only exceptions are extremely desirable women. Under monogamy, they can monopolize the wealthiest men; under polygyny, they must share the men with other, less desirable women. However, the situation is exactly opposite for men. Monogamy guarantees that every man can find a wife. True, less desirable men can marry only less desirable women, but that's much better than not marrying anyone at all. Men in monogamous societies imagine they would be better off under polygyny. What they don't realize is that, for most men who are not extremely desirable, polygyny means no wife at all, or, if they are lucky, a wife who is much less desirable than one they could get under monogamy. Eggs have always been more precious than sperm, that's just how it is. If you have a tribe of, say, 50 men and 50 women, and 40 men die, the remaining 10 men can still impregnate the 50 women and ensure that at least 50 babies (or more) will be born to continue the tribe. If, on the other hand, 40 women die, only 10 babies will be born at a time (let's not get into possible scenarios of twins and triplets etc here, for simplicity's sake) and the tribe is in danger of extinction. Women are more precious than men by virtue of their life bearing ability, that's how it is, always was, and always will be. That's why men are sent to war and have to do the dangerous jobs...men are more expendable than women. So, a man cheating might just desperately want to make sure his genes get carried on by SOMEONE (although this psych evo argument still doesn't explain to me how a man, if he successfully "spreads his seed" with 5 different women that he ran into throughout the day, wants to raise 5 different babies with 5 different women and come up with all the resources. Taking care of ONE or TWO children by ONE and the same woman increases the survival of those kids - and, subsequently, his genes - much more than having to run around between 5 different women and kids, being everywhere and nowhere at the same time, not being able to protect them all or feed them all.) Besides, if EVERY man has that urge to "spread his seed" and impregnate every attractive woman they see.....and the population consists of 50% of the opposite gender, then WHO are all those men going to F anyway? There's not enough women to go around for every single man to satisfy those "spreading" urges... not to mention the fact that the woman can only carry ONE successful genetic winner at the time. So if 10 men run around wanting to spread their seed back in the ol' "clubbing you over the head" days and they meet a woman and just pin her down and go at it....none of the men can be sure whose swimmer was the strongest and whose child it is. But if he has to be with one woman, he can be DEFINITELY sure the heir is his. So all this cheating for spreading seeds argument makes no sense whatsoever The conclusion is, monogamy stabilizes society because it ensures the nuclear family, and is actually very beneficial for men because they are virtually guaranteed a young fertile woman (this was the norm not even a century ago where women and men married off very young and started families). With this degenerate "sex liberation" society we are living in today, many men can only dream of banging one young hot woman...just look at this forum. Most men sit in front of their computer with their pants down, pathetically jacking off to some women on screen because no real life women is interested in them Yes, how is the "free love for all" working out for you? Edited April 1, 2014 by Negative Nancy
fortyninethousand322 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 What Negative Nancy says sounds convincing, except I'd argue that undesirables and beta men are right now getting nowhere with women. So it's not really a theory. It's a proven fact... 2
Author verhrzn Posted April 1, 2014 Author Posted April 1, 2014 What Negative Nancy says sounds convincing, except I'd argue that undesirables and beta men are right now getting nowhere with women. So it's not really a theory. It's a proven fact... And undesirable and beta women are doing no better. The vast majority of guys have no interest in dating me, even the ones who complain about how they can't get a girlfriend. Maybe the issue is undesirable men don't want undesirable women...
fortyninethousand322 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 And undesirable and beta women are doing no better. The vast majority of guys have no interest in dating me, even the ones who complain about how they can't get a girlfriend. Maybe the issue is undesirable men don't want undesirable women... I know this isn't true. For a fact. Again, I'm not supposed to voice an opinion on this so...
somedude81 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 And undesirable and beta women are doing no better. The vast majority of guys have no interest in dating me, even the ones who complain about how they can't get a girlfriend. Maybe the issue is undesirable men don't want undesirable women... Nobody wants to be with an undesirable person. People always try to get the best that they can, sometimes they give up and take what they can get. 1
Author verhrzn Posted April 1, 2014 Author Posted April 1, 2014 I know this isn't true. For a fact. Again, I'm not supposed to voice an opinion on this so... Oh well, I'm always happy to hear when someone knows more about my life than I do. Please, carry on telling me about my experiences.
thegreatesthumphrey Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 lm a female, but from a mans stand point they have two obvious choices and those choices are made on their own wants, desires, and goals in life A. Career -- Money -- Respect : Those men know that having one woman means they can get sex whenever they want without having to waste much time and effort trying to wine dine and seduce a female for the possibility of only a one time thing or even none at all. They want to invest their time in other things while still being able to get their rocks off. They also have the advantage of having someone at home to take care of the little things, so they can focus their energy into what they want. They also get the support, back rubs, good food. B. Social status, Sex, Freedom : The benefits of a relationship are not as important as their priorities lie elsewhere. They hold freedom of choice above the rest in life. C. Then you have the balanced man, whom l think tends to be slightly unhappy at sometimes and may swing back and forth between the two above. May end up choosing A above during his 30s. This man puts 50% of his effort into each area instead of 100% of whats most important to him. This slows his career advancement (less money, less respect, less power than men A). Spends less effort into maintaining women around him constantly and may go through periods having to go without sex. (less satisfaction, less attention, added frustration). He may never be completely satisfied. MOST MEN FALL UNDER C Man C adds to unhappiness between both sexes, high divorce rates, fatherless children, single mothers, because they are undecided in what is most important to them, so they take on relationships then tire of them quickly. Sometimes they fool themselves into thinking they can have both. Many of them start to use women and people, because that is the only way they CAN maintain both. Where is the honor in that?? lts disgusting and pathetic. But then again, WHO THEY HELL GlVES A SHlT ABOUT HONOR THESE DAYS. ME: SlNGLE FOREVER!!! BECAUSE UNLlKE MEN, WOMEN DONT HAVE TO TRY OR SPEND MONEY FOR SEX! MY PROBLEM lS SOLVED 1
fortyninethousand322 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Oh well, I'm always happy to hear when someone knows more about my life than I do. Please, carry on telling me about my experiences. That's not what I meant...
Author verhrzn Posted April 1, 2014 Author Posted April 1, 2014 That's not what I meant... Then what the heck did you mean?
fortyninethousand322 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Then what the heck did you mean? I sent you a PM about it. Unless you'd like me to rehash it on here...
somedude81 Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 I don't think that's going to work 49322 She's only trying to get the most desirable man she can, and she's upset that she can't keep them. 1
GorillaTheater Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 My wife doesn't "force" me to be monogamous, but she certainly encourages the idea. I have to imagine that force would come into play if I ever decided to stop being monogamous.
ThaWholigan Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 I wouldn't say that women force men to be monogamous, simply that there are a subset of men who allow themselves to be forced due to lacking will power. I reckon humans range individually between desiring monogamy and desiring polygamy. The outliers in this regard are people who "supposedly" want monogamy but have no control over their desires and allow it to lead them into adulterous situations, and people who "long" for a polyamorous existence but lack the interpersonal skills and sexual charisma to amass such options. I can't say I have ever desired having multiple partners at any point, it just seems like a headache to me personally. I had a difficult enough time managing 2 no-strings-attached arrangements on the go, fun though it was. Serial monogamy is about as far as I would go. It is foolish to expect fidelity if you don't establish boundaries and settle for less than you deserve. Other than that, I can't say that there is force involved other than when the man has no say over his own romantic life. A person always has a choice. It is their own bad if they cannot honor their word.
xxoo Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 No more than he "forces" me to be monogamous. I wouldn't desire monogamy with just anyone. But with the right person, I choose it. He is the same.
Woggle Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Nobody forces me to do anything. I just have principles I live by.
central Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Negative Nancy said So all this cheating for spreading seeds argument makes no sense whatsoever Much of what you wrote is correct, but this is not. A man can employ a dual strategy - keep one woman and provide for her and protect her, and spread his seed wherever else he can without investing resources. He may be successful if the other woman has a provider and they conspire to cuckold him (and if the man in our scenario has superior genes, the other woman may well aid and abet this scenario. Women benefit most from having a stable provider (monogamy/social monogamy) to ensure their children have a good start in life. Yet they can cuckold this provider to obtain superior genes (sexual non-monogamy). If they succeed in doing so without being caught, they gain reproductively at his expense. And the odds are that he may not banish her - even if caught - if he has children with her (or believes he does), because he needs her help to raise the children and has the opportunity to impregnate her again, being more watchful for interlopers in the future. 2
Woggle Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 If you ask me all evo psyche is just a load of crap to me. It's junk science that people use to justify their behavior. It's the latest trend to by hacks who don't have it what it takes to be real scientists. Go ahead and flame me but that is how I feel. 2
Anela Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 Oh well, I'm always happy to hear when someone knows more about my life than I do. Please, carry on telling me about my experiences. I think he was saying that he's found you attractive in the past.
Anela Posted April 1, 2014 Posted April 1, 2014 I don't think that's going to work 49322 She's only trying to get the most desirable man she can, and she's upset that she can't keep them. Just like you, with the women that you're attracted to. (That wasn't an attack - just thinking of your thread.) V, a lot of men want to be monogamous, and have no interest in other women that way, once they fall in love. 3
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