Is sex too important to some of us BS's?

[fellini]

"Sex is just sex" but that is not the same thing as "making love", which includes the sex, but is certainly not all of it.

 

Saying that "Sex is primal" even, is limited, distorting. Intercourse is primal. Not all sex is "primal".

If you a clinician, I can see how you might focus only on the idea of a penis entering a vagina. But I don't think many of us think of it that way, and I think even people who work with sex in a clinical capacity are able to make a switch when they go home, and actually make love with their significant others.

 

As a BS I am not "hung up" on my WS having had SEX (although I am not cool with that either), but I am really hurt (to put it mildly) by the fact that she spent a lot of quality time with another man, both of them seducing each other, and culminating in making love repeatedly over a significant period of time no differently than a young couple. This has nothing to do with "sex".

[atreides]

Wow such a gamut of opinion but what is missing here is actually in front of us.

 

First and foremost, the context of sex and infidelity is non sequitur. Infidelity is the violation of trust, spiritual bonding and a betrayal just to start. That is why it is done in secret, it is not about the sex per-say. For whatever reason, deceit won the day over communication, sharing, trust and faithfulness when one decides to "cheat."

 

Then comes the sexual arguments which leads me to the many stories I have read on LS, one being that so many have almost no sexual exploration with their significant other. So many threads about doing sexual act x with the OM/OW or the inability to be the sexual fantasy desired because of the infamous, "how can the mother who raises your child be the tigress in bed?"

 

I would say right off, if the above is the case are you really being all that you can give to your significant other because I would say it sounds rather limiting and in a way a bit deceitful in of itself if you fail to communicate such sexual needs and or desires.

 

Sex is not just one thing or another, it is an expressive tool and while I consider myself a god-fearing man, I understand the wide range of life's modicums sex can bring.

 

Sex should be sacred in terms of making love to the one you chose for life and at the same time it should also represent great pleasure and exploration. After all if one is religious, creation itself has biological chemicals and stimulation and the ability to just "get it on" one night and "make love" the next.

 

One thing my wife and I made sure to do and she was more prude then I is explore and communicate no matter how embarrassed we may think it is, to do it and fun doing so. I have been shocked by many threads were people are married for many years and yet such limited sexual exploration beyond what would be argued as "sacred intimacy."

 

It really is a moot point as to men-sex/female-emotion as both could be argued to be as complex/superficial as the other and in truth is not point of infidelity. Infidelity is a island in of itself to where the WS has a lot of soul searching to do and not because of the sex but because of the betrayal, lies and deceit they chose to invoke.

 

As to generational differences, I do not agree. I have spoken to many who are elderly whom have even wilder stories than some of the younger crowd I know. Also in terms of the amount of infidelity, take women for example, during my grandparents time they were in large part stay at home very low social contact, but today social contact has gone through the roof and only growing through technology and other means. The math would simply dictate an increase because the base is larger from which to sample.

 

I think the thread needs to separate sex from infidelity and simply exclude age as a divider.

Edited April 1, 2014 by atreides

[underwater2010]

I am right there with you. Sex, kissing, hand holding etc...is special to me. I have never wanted to do any of that with another man since marrying my husband. It is something that I want to share with him and only him.

 

As far as being able to get over the emotional part...that is hard, but I was lucky in that there was no future faking for them. To MOW it was all about sex. She is one of those that consider sex to be for prostitutes and affairs. Not a way to show her husband that she loves him.

 

Some people can function that way....I cannot. I also cannot function as a warm place to put it. I don't want to be sexual with someone that is out for themselves only.

 

I have never understood people's ability to have a one night stand, let alone an affair. My only conclusion is that these people are broken.

[drifter777]

As you have never been cheated on you really have no idea. It is actually doesn't fit this situation. This man chose to stay with his wife. It has been years. SHe has remained faithful. He hates her and himself. Clearly this mindset and stubborness to let go is not working for him. People have a choice. They can either hold on to a grudge until the day they die or they can let it go.

Now you are just making things up as you go. I hate what she did and who she was when she did it. People don't have a choice when it comes to their emotional reaction to infidelity. They can choose to stay or leave, but not how they feel.

OP can believe that he will never have a good marriage again while he chooses to stay in that marriage for his grandson. Be a martyr because he thinks forgiving his wife and truly giving her a second chance is saying her screwing around is okay. Instead of clinging to his triggers and wallowing in self pity and regret he could choose to forgive her and take control of his thought life instead of letting it control him.

 

But instead he chooses to believe doing so is saying the affair was okay and so he remains in a miserable life, unhappy with himself and his wife for the rest of his life with her. That is depressing.

 

Forgiveness isn't saying what someone did was okay. If what someone did was okay where is the need to forgive?

 

Being bitter and mourning the past and things you cannot change is no way to live.

Something feels wrong being scolded about my reaction to a cheating wife by a WW. Pretty much every BH that has weighed in here agrees with me that sex is not just sex when it's their wife cheating on them. Most agree that the sexual component seems to take the longest to reconcile in their minds. And most agree that life after infidelity - reconcile or divorce - lacks the intimacy they felt before the cheating when it comes to sex.

 

I live a very normal life and am as "happy" as most people. Marriage is hard - really hard - and takes work and forgiveness on a continual basis. My decision to stay after her cheating was wrong for me, but I have always owned it and blame no one for it. It was my mistake and I am still paying for it. As you (and anyone else who reads my story) know, my wife has proven she is not the person she was back then and has been a good wife and mother for many years. Punishing her now isn't fair - I should have done it when she was young enough to start her life over.

 

I don't think I've ever asked for advice from anyone on this forum, although I get it all the time. I advocate for a BH divorcing his WW in most cases because I see way too many of them try to reconcile and continue to suffer from her cheating. When there are no children involved I think it's a no-brainer for any BS to divorce and start over. Criticize me for my opinions and beliefs and stop pontificating on my life and my marriage. Stop the personal attacks and focus on the subject of infidelity.

[Owl]

I live a very normal life and am as "happy" as most people. Marriage is hard - really hard - and takes work and forgiveness on a continual basis. My decision to stay after her cheating was wrong for me, but I have always owned it and blame no one for it. It was my mistake and I am still paying for it. As you (and anyone else who reads my story) know, my wife has proven she is not the person she was back then and has been a good wife and mother for many years. Punishing her now isn't fair - I should have done it when she was young enough to start her life over.

 

I don't think I've ever asked for advice from anyone on this forum, although I get it all the time. I advocate for a BH divorcing his WW in most cases because I see way too many of them try to reconcile and continue to suffer from her cheating. When there are no children involved I think it's a no-brainer for any BS to divorce and start over. Criticize me for my opinions and beliefs and stop pontificating on my life and my marriage. Stop the personal attacks and focus on the subject of infidelity.

 

Have you forgiven your wife?

 

Have you shown her that you've forgiven her in actions, in words?

 

Have you stopped punishing her? Both in reality, and in your mind?

 

I think perhaps we do indeed misunderstand you, if what you've posted above is a more accurate representation of your marriage.

 

In all the posts you've put up in the past, it's always appeared to me that you still resent your wife's actions, still haven't truly forgiven her for them, and in some fashion still feel she deserves punishment for them.

 

If I've been misreading you all this time...I'll flat out apologize to you.

 

But given your posts here up until this one, I've never seen anything that indicated to me that you truly had forgiven her, or had ever stopped punishing her, at least within your own heart and mind.

[veritas lux mea]

Have you forgiven your wife?

 

Have you shown her that you've forgiven her in actions, in words?

 

Have you stopped punishing her? Both in reality, and in your mind?

 

I think perhaps we do indeed misunderstand you, if what you've posted above is a more accurate representation of your marriage.

 

In all the posts you've put up in the past, it's always appeared to me that you still resent your wife's actions, still haven't truly forgiven her for them, and in some fashion still feel she deserves punishment for them.

 

If I've been misreading you all this time...I'll flat out apologize to you.

 

But given your posts here up until this one, I've never seen anything that indicated to me that you truly had forgiven her, or had ever stopped punishing her, at least within your own heart and mind.

 

See me being a WS has nothing to do with it. Your posts say you are miserable. Like owl if you truly have found happiness again than my posts don't fit. They were based on the idea you potrayed that you were choosing to hold on to the past over happiness.

 

And saying you can't help how you feel is ow crap. Trust me, i've said it.

[BHsigh]

I don't think that sex is too important to us BS's, particularly in regards to affair sex. To me sex is very important for a stable relationship, it is the final link in a relationship, perhaps the final act that makes it real.

 

Then again, I have never been an "easy" guy really, I know that when I was younger I played a little, but not as much as I could, and I turned down easy sex a few times, believe it or not. I'm a relationship sex kind of guy, the thought of having sex with some random woman that I don't even know turns me off. Maybe I'm weird, or strange, but I place a high value on sex in a relationship, which I suppose is one of the reasons that my wifes affair sex continues to torment me so much.

 

I've said it in one thread before, so I'll say it again here, but perhaps in a slightly different way since I'm too lazy to find it:

 

You can fall in and out of love, emotions come and go, love, hate indifference etc. I can believe that my wife no longer love's exAP, I believe that she is indifferent about him at this point and no longer cares one wit about him.

 

Sex is forever, it cannot be taken away, it can stop yes, but it can never be undone. She will always have had sex with him, always, nothing will ever, ever change that. It's easy to forget about past sexual experiences, they were before me, but her affair sex...nope, it was during our marriage and will now always be there, haunting me, always.

[drifter777]

See me being a WS has nothing to do with it. Your posts say you are miserable. Like owl if you truly have found happiness again than my posts don't fit. They were based on the idea you potrayed that you were choosing to hold on to the past over happiness.

 

And saying you can't help how you feel is ow crap. Trust me, i've said it.

For you and Owl and everyone who cares to read this: No, I haven't forgiven her for what she did and I know I never will. I am sure my concept of forgiveness is different from yours so I'll define where I am with her cheating now. And it's going to be long because it's really complicated - like most things in life are.

 

I now understand and accept that she wanted to cheat and thought she wanted to end our marriage. I believe that her motive was not to hurt me but to be single again. Once she tried "single" on for size she realized it wasn't the life she wanted to live and begged me to come home. This summary doesn't really tell you anything.

 

We were driving home from the airport when she told me she cheated. I dropped her off at our apartment and left. I vowed to hate her forever and knew that to get past the hurt I had to harden my heart and end all contact with her that didn't involve my son. Unknowingly, I did a 180% that ended up having a huge impact on her decision that she didn't like being single. These are facts and they are not in dispute by me or my wife.

 

I felt a lot of things when she told me she cheated, but denial was not one of them. I was hurt, angry, and ashamed for her because of her slutty behavior. Hating her and walking away was easy on d-day. Living with it the next 3 - 4 weeks was painfully difficult, but I felt stronger as I became more sure of my decision. Picking up my son for our weekends outside of our apartment and dropping him off Sunday night was working fine. I didn't have to see her so I was careful to avoid any situation where I couldn't avoid her. Funny thing, she started hustling out to the car to meet our son and ask me how it went and so on. I never answered, never made eye contact, and just drove away. My visits to see my son were arranged by phone or a note I would give him to pass on to her. So I can personally vouch for the effectiveness of the 180%. The problem I see is that if the BS is doing it with the intention of winning their WS back, they won't truly do it. When I say I hardened my heart toward her I really mean hardened. It wasn't just that I wouldn't look at her or talk to her, my body language had to be screaming that what she did was unacceptable and killed our relationship. I'm not sure many BS's can truly communicate this to their WS but, if they can, it's their best chance to bring the cheater to their knees whether they want them back or not.

 

This is what she told me she went through during that time:

 

After a few days she knew that she had lied to herself for selfish reasons. She was still thinking like a WW in that she believed that what she did wasn't all that bad because she learned that she loved me and that was an important, wonderful thing. She said my cold behavior terrified her and that she could see I was becoming colder by the day. She finally panicked and told her OM to go away and began plotting on how she could get me to come home. When she sprung her trap I was too confused, too hurt, and too afraid to resist. I now can see that I never had a chance because I loved her and was devoted to my son. I told myself that time would heal the wound. I honestly wondered if this cheating thing was common and something I "should" get over.

 

As time went by her gas-lighting began to ring hollow to me. As in "what the hell? Can I screw some chick so I can find out if I really love my wife? In what world is that ok?" Each time I brought it up she refused to acknowledge that she had done anything wrong. It was my problem because I just didn't understand that she wanted to end our marriage and the whole cheating incident saved us because she discovered how much I meant to her. I would protest with "but you cheated and I hurt" and she basically told me to move on because it's in the past blah, blah, blah. It wasn't until years later that I threw off her gas-lighting and told her she needed to quit the bulls*t or I was leaving. Only then did I start to make progress and begin to understand the depth of my pain.

 

So now I look back at two decades of her being a faithful wife and a good mother to our kids and I know it's not fair to punish her by divorcing her now. I look back to the decision I made to come home with agony. I was right to leave, and I could have avoided decades of pain, anger, mind-movies, and frustration if I just stayed on the course I set for myself.

 

This is how I can say that I will never forgive her for cheating. To me it's an unforgivable act. I hate the person she was and the things that she did back then. She's not that person now, although I am sure she still thinks that she learned a valuable lesson and maybe she did. But at what price? She says she is ashamed of what she did, that she knows it was selfish and hurtful, and is sorry for the pain it caused me. Ok, I accept all of this. This acceptance is as close as I will ever get to forgiveness and it is enough for us as a married couple. We rarely talk about this. When something triggers the memories she has become really good about talking me through it. Of course she hates talking about it but realizes that its the price she has to pay for what she did.

 

But what do I do with my unresolved feelings of sorrow and anger and pain? Pretend they don't exist? Tell myself that I don't feel them? And telling me it's a "choice" to feel this way just insults me. Now it doesn't help me to scream at her or kick her out or leave myself. Its not about her and who she is now. Its about what she did and the fact I repressed everything for so long. The main focus of my regret is that I came back and tried to overlook what she did for so long. That is the mistake I made and why I urge every BH to weigh his options after d-day. Reconciliation is not right for everyone and can turn into what I've lived through. I don't care what path a BH chooses to follow in the end, I just want all of them to know that reconciliation is much harder than they think it will be and that divorce, while painful, is a legitimate alternative.

[Owl]

To me (and I clearly understand that my viewpoint doesn't matter at all in this), divorcing her now actually should have nothing to do with 'punishment'.

 

It should be because you're not capable of loving the woman in front of you. Not in the way that she needs/wants/hopes for, at least.

 

You can't love her that way because you can't see her as anything other than who she was 20 years ago. Whether or not that's fair is irrelevent...it's simply what is.

 

I get that...I just don't understand how staying now, feeling the way that you do...and her awareness of how you feel about her as a result...is any less 'punishing' than divorce. For you or her.

 

I'd add that I think you're a rare case, my friend.

 

Most people either learn to forgive and move on...or not forgive, divorce and move on.

 

Odds are pretty low that others will choose your path, in my experience. They could, clearly...you have. But realistically I think more people would find your situation completely unacceptable, and take action to change it, one way or another.

[Owl]

Reconciliation is not right for everyone and can turn into what I've lived through. I don't care what path a BH chooses to follow in the end, I just want all of them to know that reconciliation is much harder than they think it will be and that divorce, while painful, is a legitimate alternative.

 

I don't think any of us disagree with this at all.

 

I think that divorce is equally as viable an option as reconciliation...if not more of one.

 

YOUR situation isn't reconcililation. You've never reconciled your marriage...never recovered either personally nor as a couple...from her infidelity. In your case, you simply remained together without addressing the problems. That's not recovery, nor reconciliation in my book.

 

That's just continuing the marriage post-infidelity...and I don't recommend that as an option to anyone.

[anne1707]

You say it would be unfair now to punish your wife by divorcing her. If my husband felt the way you do, I would consider it a punishment to stay in a false marriage. I would rather go through the pain of divorce so that eventually he and I could both have the chance to live happily and at peace.

 

You say you trigger and your wife helps you through those times. Have you told her how you really feel about her? Does she know you regret staying in the marriage?

[waterwoman]

Not me. We all draw the line in a different place. I wouldn't have cared if he had screwed her every which way till sunday, it was the ILY that hurt.

 

Sex is just sex until emotion is added. Without ILY she might as well have been a prostitute. I could have coped with that a lot better.

[waterwoman]

I do understand the concept of forgiving the spouse you are with now, but struggling to forgive the one they were at the time of the affair. If I had the h who cheated on me, gaslighted and denied, in front of me now, I could happily hit him with a very large brick and keep on boing it!! The one I have now is sorry, caring and loving. Don't want to hit him. It's an odd thing really.

[drifter777]

I don't think any of us disagree with this at all.

 

I think that divorce is equally as viable an option as reconciliation...if not more of one.

 

YOUR situation isn't reconcililation. You've never reconciled your marriage...never recovered either personally nor as a couple...from her infidelity. In your case, you simply remained together without addressing the problems. That's not recovery, nor reconciliation in my book.

 

That's just continuing the marriage post-infidelity...and I don't recommend that as an option to anyone.

Yes, my wife knows exactly bow I feel about everything I've posted here. We've decided to settle because we have so much in common and enjoy each others company - most of tbe time. Can you say that? A marriage is not a black/white proposition. Companionship is important to me as is a stable family life for my kids and grandkids. All of you judging will find out how important these things are when you get closer to retirement age.

 

How can my wanting BH's to consider divorce as an honorable alternative to reconciliation turn into all this? I guess it was my mistake to offer up details of my story.

[RightThere]

I guess it was my mistake to offer up details of my story.

 

I appreciated very much reading that.

[MuddyFootprints]

I did, too. It didn't come across quite as hard-ass and resentful as I envisioned your situation to be. Thank you for elaborating and sharing.

[dichotomy]

Drifter,

 

Sexual beliefs vary from person to person, and can change for some. I have difficulty with saying "women are" and "men are" because I see so no general stereotype.... other than to agree sex is becoming more and more just sex and not something for someone special. I make no judgements on either belief someone has ....other than they are completely honest with themselves and their potential partners on what they believe.

 

But to your point - of course if a BS believes sex is something rare and special for a loving partner or committed relationship - well sure that part of the affair (sexual intimacy) will really hurt. I have particularly seen some BH's also find out special rare sexual acts were given to OM and never for them... this (for men who see sex as expression of love) drives them to extremes grief and anger. If sex = special love, special sex = extreme love.

 

I do also think that perhaps some perspective or perhaps reduction in the view on sex = rare/love/special can perhaps help a BS like this cope.

 

I myself have had to readjust my views on sex a bit over the years to deal with things - but it has a down side as well....in that it reduces the significance of the sex I have with my wife now - and it also (how ever slightly) puts my own risk for having an affair (its just sex..I guess). This does not sit well with me at all.

 

But also understand that many also are deeply hurt by emotional only affairs - both men and women. It is a poor stereotype to say a man would not be hurt by just an EA - as they can be intense betrayals. Do BS put to much importance on emotional intimacy?

 

You believe what you believe put importance on what you put importance on - and if your partner or spouse knows this - and betrays that belief it hurts so much.

Edited April 2, 2014 by dichotomy

[Owl]

 

How can my wanting BH's to consider divorce as an honorable alternative to reconciliation turn into all this? I guess it was my mistake to offer up details of my story.

 

I think the confusion comes into play when folks read your posts that clearly spell out how you view your wife post affair, and yet you continue to remain with her in spite of how you look at her.

 

When you spell out...as you have now...the positives in your continued marriage....it helps to get a clearer picture.

 

It's hard for folks to understand your patent insistence that divorce is probably the preferred route...when you refuse to take that route yourself.

 

You wish you'd divorced then...but not enough to choose to divorce now.

 

For me...I don't get that. But after all I've gone through in my life, I'm much more a 'learn from the past, but live in the now' kind of guy. I deal with issues directly...I don't let the past rule how I live my present. I learn from it, and then let it go. I'm where I've chosen to be...I'm going to make the most of it, make it a good place to be. And I'm not going to dwell on things I shoulda done differently if they have no direct bearing on my present life.

 

If you're happy with your marriage now...why do you think you'd have been happier if you'd have divorced then?

 

And at the bottom line of things...I think we're in agreemant that divorce IS an honorable option post-infidelity. I don't think there are many folks here who would diesagree with that stance. It's not the ONLY honorable option, but it certainly is one honorable path...and for some, the best path they can take.

[Betterthanthis13]

My takeaway from posts made by drifter over the time I've been reading this board is sort of like a caution to any BS's who are in the decision making process of whether or not to attempt R is this:

 

Even if the WS is truly remorseful and does everything right for the next 20 years, and even if you do everything in your power to forgive them, there is a chance that you will not be able to forgive yourself for making the choice to R with someone who has disrespected you on this base level no matter how much time passes, which in turn can create a new kind of mental hell to live with.

 

I think this idea bothers people in R because it is not their experience, they have found a way to not only forgive their WS but also forgive themselves for choosing to forgive, if that makes any sense.

[DasPope]

For myself the sex is the one thing that still is getting to me. Not because of any other reason then I know nothing much about it. I would like to know more details but it seems that I can't bring myself to figure out how to ask about it. I think I am also really not ready to hear the answers. It is a burden on me and hasn't improved.